Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Pavel Machek]

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On Thu 2017-09-14 21:31:31, Jacek Anaszewski wrote:
> Hi David and Pavel,
> 
> On 09/13/2017 10:20 PM, Pavel Machek wrote:
> > Hi!
> > 
> >> These patch series add the LED_BRIGHTNESS_FAST flag support for
> >> ledtrig-transient to use hrtimer so that platforms with high-resolution timer
> >> support can have better accuracy in the trigger duration timing. The need for
> >> this support is driven by the fact that Android has removed the timed_ouput [1]
> >> and is now using led-trigger for handling vibrator control which requires the
> >> timer to be accurate up to a millisecond. However, this flag support would also
> >> allow hrtimer to co-exist with the ktimer without causing warning to the
> >> existing drivers [2].
> > 
> > NAK.
> > 
> > LEDs do not need extra overhead, and vibrator control should not go
> > through LED subsystem.
> > 
> > Input subsystem includes support for vibrations and force
> > feedback. Please use that instead.
> 
> I think that most vital criterion here is the usability of the
> interface. If it can be harnessed for doing the work seemingly
> unrelated to the primary subsystem's purpose, that's fine.
> Moreover, it is extremely easy to use in comparison to the force
> feedback one.

Well, no.

Kernel is supposed to provide hardware abstraction, that means it
should hide differences between different devices.

And we already have devices using input as designed. We don't want to
have situation where "on phones A, D and E, vibrations are handled via
input, while on B, C and F, they are handled via /sys/class/leds".

If we want to have discussion "how to make vibrations in input
easier to use", well that's fair. But I don't think it is particulary hard.

If we want to say "lets move all vibrations from input to LED
subsystem"... I don't think that is good idea, but its a valid
discussion. Some good reasons would be needed.

But having half devices use one interface and half use different one
is just bad... especially when only reason to do it that way is
"David wants to do it that way, android library made a mistake and he
now wants it to propagate to whole world".

Thank you,
									Pavel
-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

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Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Dmitry Torokhov]

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 1:58 PM, Pavel Machek <pavel@ucw.cz> wrote:
> On Thu 2017-09-14 21:31:31, Jacek Anaszewski wrote:
>> Hi David and Pavel,
>>
>> On 09/13/2017 10:20 PM, Pavel Machek wrote:
>> > Hi!
>> >
>> >> These patch series add the LED_BRIGHTNESS_FAST flag support for
>> >> ledtrig-transient to use hrtimer so that platforms with high-resolution timer
>> >> support can have better accuracy in the trigger duration timing. The need for
>> >> this support is driven by the fact that Android has removed the timed_ouput [1]
>> >> and is now using led-trigger for handling vibrator control which requires the
>> >> timer to be accurate up to a millisecond. However, this flag support would also
>> >> allow hrtimer to co-exist with the ktimer without causing warning to the
>> >> existing drivers [2].
>> >
>> > NAK.
>> >
>> > LEDs do not need extra overhead, and vibrator control should not go
>> > through LED subsystem.
>> >
>> > Input subsystem includes support for vibrations and force
>> > feedback. Please use that instead.
>>
>> I think that most vital criterion here is the usability of the
>> interface. If it can be harnessed for doing the work seemingly
>> unrelated to the primary subsystem's purpose, that's fine.
>> Moreover, it is extremely easy to use in comparison to the force
>> feedback one.
>
> Well, no.
>
> Kernel is supposed to provide hardware abstraction, that means it
> should hide differences between different devices.
>
> And we already have devices using input as designed. We don't want to
> have situation where "on phones A, D and E, vibrations are handled via
> input, while on B, C and F, they are handled via /sys/class/leds".
>
> If we want to have discussion "how to make vibrations in input
> easier to use", well that's fair. But I don't think it is particulary hard.
>

I would like to know more about why you find the FF interface hard,
given that for rumble you need calls - one ioctl to set up rumble
parameters, and a write to start the playback. The FF core should take
care of handling duration of the effect, ramping it up and decaying,
if desired, and we make sure to automatically stop effects when
userspace closes the fd (because of ordinary exit or crash or FD being
revoked).

> If we want to say "lets move all vibrations from input to LED
> subsystem"... I don't think that is good idea, but its a valid
> discussion. Some good reasons would be needed.
>
> But having half devices use one interface and half use different one
> is just bad...

Completely agree here. I just merged PWM vibra driver from Sebastian
Reichel, we already had regulator-haptic driver, do we need gpio-based
one? Or make regulator-based one working with fixed regulators?

Thanks.

-- 
Dmitry

Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Jacek Anaszewski]

On 09/15/2017 08:34 PM, Dmitry Torokhov wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 1:58 PM, Pavel Machek <pavel@ucw.cz> wrote:
>> On Thu 2017-09-14 21:31:31, Jacek Anaszewski wrote:
>>> Hi David and Pavel,
>>>
>>> On 09/13/2017 10:20 PM, Pavel Machek wrote:
>>>> Hi!
>>>>
>>>>> These patch series add the LED_BRIGHTNESS_FAST flag support for
>>>>> ledtrig-transient to use hrtimer so that platforms with high-resolution timer
>>>>> support can have better accuracy in the trigger duration timing. The need for
>>>>> this support is driven by the fact that Android has removed the timed_ouput [1]
>>>>> and is now using led-trigger for handling vibrator control which requires the
>>>>> timer to be accurate up to a millisecond. However, this flag support would also
>>>>> allow hrtimer to co-exist with the ktimer without causing warning to the
>>>>> existing drivers [2].
>>>>
>>>> NAK.
>>>>
>>>> LEDs do not need extra overhead, and vibrator control should not go
>>>> through LED subsystem.
>>>>
>>>> Input subsystem includes support for vibrations and force
>>>> feedback. Please use that instead.
>>>
>>> I think that most vital criterion here is the usability of the
>>> interface. If it can be harnessed for doing the work seemingly
>>> unrelated to the primary subsystem's purpose, that's fine.
>>> Moreover, it is extremely easy to use in comparison to the force
>>> feedback one.
>>
>> Well, no.
>>
>> Kernel is supposed to provide hardware abstraction, that means it
>> should hide differences between different devices.
>>
>> And we already have devices using input as designed. We don't want to
>> have situation where "on phones A, D and E, vibrations are handled via
>> input, while on B, C and F, they are handled via /sys/class/leds".
>>
>> If we want to have discussion "how to make vibrations in input
>> easier to use", well that's fair. But I don't think it is particulary hard.
>>
> 
> I would like to know more about why you find the FF interface hard,

led-transient trigger can be activated using only following bash
commands:

# echo 1 > state
# echo 1000 > duration
# while [ 1 ]; do echo 1 > activate; sleep 3; done

Could you share sample sequence of commands to use ff driver?

> given that for rumble you need calls - one ioctl to set up rumble
> parameters, and a write to start the playback. The FF core should take
> care of handling duration of the effect, ramping it up and decaying,
> if desired, and we make sure to automatically stop effects when
> userspace closes the fd (because of ordinary exit or crash or FD being
> revoked).
> 
>> If we want to say "lets move all vibrations from input to LED
>> subsystem"... I don't think that is good idea, but its a valid
>> discussion. Some good reasons would be needed.
>>
>> But having half devices use one interface and half use different one
>> is just bad...
> 
> Completely agree here. I just merged PWM vibra driver from Sebastian
> Reichel, we already had regulator-haptic driver, do we need gpio-based
> one? Or make regulator-based one working with fixed regulators?

Just to clarify: the background of this discussion is the question
whether we should remove the following lines from
Documentation/leds/ledtrig-transient.txt:

-As a specific example of this use-case, let's look at vibrate feature on
-phones. Vibrate function on phones is implemented using PWM pins on SoC or
-PMIC. There is a need to activate one shot timer to control the vibrate
-feature, to prevent user space crashes leaving the phone in vibrate mode
-permanently causing the battery to drain.
whether we should remove the following use case example from

In effect Pavel has objections to increasing ledtrig-transient
interval accuracy by adding hr_timer support to it, because vibrate
devices, as one of the use cases, can benefit from it.

So there are two issues:
1. Addition of hr_timer support to LED trigger.
2. Removal of vibrate devices use case from ledtrig-transient doc.

I am in favour of 1. and against 2. since we're not gaining anything
by hiding information about some kernel functionality when it will
still be there. It also doesn't define the location of any vibrate
device drivers, since sheer leds-gpio driver can be used for that
purpose.

-- 
Best regards,
Jacek Anaszewski

Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Dmitry Torokhov]

On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:55 PM, Jacek Anaszewski
<jacek.anaszewski@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 09/15/2017 08:34 PM, Dmitry Torokhov wrote:
>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 1:58 PM, Pavel Machek <pavel@ucw.cz> wrote:
>>> On Thu 2017-09-14 21:31:31, Jacek Anaszewski wrote:
>>>> Hi David and Pavel,
>>>>
>>>> On 09/13/2017 10:20 PM, Pavel Machek wrote:
>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>
>>>>>> These patch series add the LED_BRIGHTNESS_FAST flag support for
>>>>>> ledtrig-transient to use hrtimer so that platforms with high-resolution timer
>>>>>> support can have better accuracy in the trigger duration timing. The need for
>>>>>> this support is driven by the fact that Android has removed the timed_ouput [1]
>>>>>> and is now using led-trigger for handling vibrator control which requires the
>>>>>> timer to be accurate up to a millisecond. However, this flag support would also
>>>>>> allow hrtimer to co-exist with the ktimer without causing warning to the
>>>>>> existing drivers [2].
>>>>>
>>>>> NAK.
>>>>>
>>>>> LEDs do not need extra overhead, and vibrator control should not go
>>>>> through LED subsystem.
>>>>>
>>>>> Input subsystem includes support for vibrations and force
>>>>> feedback. Please use that instead.
>>>>
>>>> I think that most vital criterion here is the usability of the
>>>> interface. If it can be harnessed for doing the work seemingly
>>>> unrelated to the primary subsystem's purpose, that's fine.
>>>> Moreover, it is extremely easy to use in comparison to the force
>>>> feedback one.
>>>
>>> Well, no.
>>>
>>> Kernel is supposed to provide hardware abstraction, that means it
>>> should hide differences between different devices.
>>>
>>> And we already have devices using input as designed. We don't want to
>>> have situation where "on phones A, D and E, vibrations are handled via
>>> input, while on B, C and F, they are handled via /sys/class/leds".
>>>
>>> If we want to have discussion "how to make vibrations in input
>>> easier to use", well that's fair. But I don't think it is particulary hard.
>>>
>>
>> I would like to know more about why you find the FF interface hard,
>
> led-transient trigger can be activated using only following bash
> commands:
>
> # echo 1 > state
> # echo 1000 > duration
> # while [ 1 ]; do echo 1 > activate; sleep 3; done
>
> Could you share sample sequence of commands to use ff driver?

Cut what you need from this:
https://github.com/flosse/linuxconsole/blob/master/utils/fftest.c

If your objection is that FF is not easily engaged from the shell -
yes, but I do not think that actual users who want to do vibration do
that via shell either. On the other hand, can you drop privileges and
still allow a certain process control your vibrator via LED interface?
With FF you can pass an FD to whoever you deem worthy and later revoke
access.

IOW sysfs interfaces are nice for quick hacks, but when you want to
use them in real frameworks, where you need to think about proper
namespaces, isolation, etc, etc, other kinds of interfaces might suit
better.

>
>> given that for rumble you need calls - one ioctl to set up rumble
>> parameters, and a write to start the playback. The FF core should take
>> care of handling duration of the effect, ramping it up and decaying,
>> if desired, and we make sure to automatically stop effects when
>> userspace closes the fd (because of ordinary exit or crash or FD being
>> revoked).
>>
>>> If we want to say "lets move all vibrations from input to LED
>>> subsystem"... I don't think that is good idea, but its a valid
>>> discussion. Some good reasons would be needed.
>>>
>>> But having half devices use one interface and half use different one
>>> is just bad...
>>
>> Completely agree here. I just merged PWM vibra driver from Sebastian
>> Reichel, we already had regulator-haptic driver, do we need gpio-based
>> one? Or make regulator-based one working with fixed regulators?
>
> Just to clarify: the background of this discussion is the question
> whether we should remove the following lines from
> Documentation/leds/ledtrig-transient.txt:
>
> -As a specific example of this use-case, let's look at vibrate feature on
> -phones. Vibrate function on phones is implemented using PWM pins on SoC or
> -PMIC. There is a need to activate one shot timer to control the vibrate
> -feature, to prevent user space crashes leaving the phone in vibrate mode
> -permanently causing the battery to drain.
> whether we should remove the following use case example from
>
> In effect Pavel has objections to increasing ledtrig-transient
> interval accuracy by adding hr_timer support to it, because vibrate
> devices, as one of the use cases, can benefit from it.
>
> So there are two issues:
> 1. Addition of hr_timer support to LED trigger.
> 2. Removal of vibrate devices use case from ledtrig-transient doc.
>
> I am in favour of 1. and against 2. since we're not gaining anything
> by hiding information about some kernel functionality when it will
> still be there. It also doesn't define the location of any vibrate
> device drivers, since sheer leds-gpio driver can be used for that
> purpose.

I would say that while leds-gpio can be used to do whatever (you can
wire PS/2 mouse to a set of gpios and probably manage to drive it
through a set of leds-gpio devices) it does not make it right
interface for everything. We do have a standard interface for haptic
(via rumble FF), at this moment I see no reason why we need another
one. It just confuses userspace as it now needs to implement multiple
interfaces, depending on the system it runs. Android expects that HAL
will take care of hiding all of that from their upper layers and does
not really pay close attention to kernel ABIs, but I think we should.

Thanks.

-- 
Dmitry

Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Jacek Anaszewski]

On 09/16/2017 12:30 AM, Dmitry Torokhov wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:55 PM, Jacek Anaszewski
> <jacek.anaszewski@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 09/15/2017 08:34 PM, Dmitry Torokhov wrote:
>>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 1:58 PM, Pavel Machek <pavel@ucw.cz> wrote:
>>>> On Thu 2017-09-14 21:31:31, Jacek Anaszewski wrote:
>>>>> Hi David and Pavel,
>>>>>
>>>>> On 09/13/2017 10:20 PM, Pavel Machek wrote:
>>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> These patch series add the LED_BRIGHTNESS_FAST flag support for
>>>>>>> ledtrig-transient to use hrtimer so that platforms with high-resolution timer
>>>>>>> support can have better accuracy in the trigger duration timing. The need for
>>>>>>> this support is driven by the fact that Android has removed the timed_ouput [1]
>>>>>>> and is now using led-trigger for handling vibrator control which requires the
>>>>>>> timer to be accurate up to a millisecond. However, this flag support would also
>>>>>>> allow hrtimer to co-exist with the ktimer without causing warning to the
>>>>>>> existing drivers [2].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NAK.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LEDs do not need extra overhead, and vibrator control should not go
>>>>>> through LED subsystem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Input subsystem includes support for vibrations and force
>>>>>> feedback. Please use that instead.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that most vital criterion here is the usability of the
>>>>> interface. If it can be harnessed for doing the work seemingly
>>>>> unrelated to the primary subsystem's purpose, that's fine.
>>>>> Moreover, it is extremely easy to use in comparison to the force
>>>>> feedback one.
>>>>
>>>> Well, no.
>>>>
>>>> Kernel is supposed to provide hardware abstraction, that means it
>>>> should hide differences between different devices.
>>>>
>>>> And we already have devices using input as designed. We don't want to
>>>> have situation where "on phones A, D and E, vibrations are handled via
>>>> input, while on B, C and F, they are handled via /sys/class/leds".
>>>>
>>>> If we want to have discussion "how to make vibrations in input
>>>> easier to use", well that's fair. But I don't think it is particulary hard.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I would like to know more about why you find the FF interface hard,
>>
>> led-transient trigger can be activated using only following bash
>> commands:
>>
>> # echo 1 > state
>> # echo 1000 > duration
>> # while [ 1 ]; do echo 1 > activate; sleep 3; done
>>
>> Could you share sample sequence of commands to use ff driver?
> 
> Cut what you need from this:
> https://github.com/flosse/linuxconsole/blob/master/utils/fftest.c
> 
> If your objection is that FF is not easily engaged from the shell -
> yes, but I do not think that actual users who want to do vibration do
> that via shell either. On the other hand, can you drop privileges and
> still allow a certain process control your vibrator via LED interface?
> With FF you can pass an FD to whoever you deem worthy and later revoke
> access.
> 
> IOW sysfs interfaces are nice for quick hacks, but when you want to
> use them in real frameworks, where you need to think about proper
> namespaces, isolation, etc, etc, other kinds of interfaces might suit
> better.

I'd leave the decision to the user. We could add a note to the
Documentation/leds/ledtrig-transient.txt that force feedback interface
should be preferable choice for driving vibrate devices.
However only if following conditions are met:
- force feedback driver supports gpio driven devices
- there is sample application in tools/input showing how to
  setup gpio driven vibrate device with use of ff interface
- it will be possible to setup vibrate interval with 1ms accuracy,
  similarly to what the discussed patch allows to do

>>
>>> given that for rumble you need calls - one ioctl to set up rumble
>>> parameters, and a write to start the playback. The FF core should take
>>> care of handling duration of the effect, ramping it up and decaying,
>>> if desired, and we make sure to automatically stop effects when
>>> userspace closes the fd (because of ordinary exit or crash or FD being
>>> revoked).
>>>
>>>> If we want to say "lets move all vibrations from input to LED
>>>> subsystem"... I don't think that is good idea, but its a valid
>>>> discussion. Some good reasons would be needed.
>>>>
>>>> But having half devices use one interface and half use different one
>>>> is just bad...
>>>
>>> Completely agree here. I just merged PWM vibra driver from Sebastian
>>> Reichel, we already had regulator-haptic driver, do we need gpio-based
>>> one? Or make regulator-based one working with fixed regulators?
>>
>> Just to clarify: the background of this discussion is the question
>> whether we should remove the following lines from
>> Documentation/leds/ledtrig-transient.txt:
>>
>> -As a specific example of this use-case, let's look at vibrate feature on
>> -phones. Vibrate function on phones is implemented using PWM pins on SoC or
>> -PMIC. There is a need to activate one shot timer to control the vibrate
>> -feature, to prevent user space crashes leaving the phone in vibrate mode
>> -permanently causing the battery to drain.
>> whether we should remove the following use case example from
>>
>> In effect Pavel has objections to increasing ledtrig-transient
>> interval accuracy by adding hr_timer support to it, because vibrate
>> devices, as one of the use cases, can benefit from it.
>>
>> So there are two issues:
>> 1. Addition of hr_timer support to LED trigger.
>> 2. Removal of vibrate devices use case from ledtrig-transient doc.
>>
>> I am in favour of 1. and against 2. since we're not gaining anything
>> by hiding information about some kernel functionality when it will
>> still be there. It also doesn't define the location of any vibrate
>> device drivers, since sheer leds-gpio driver can be used for that
>> purpose.
> 
> I would say that while leds-gpio can be used to do whatever (you can
> wire PS/2 mouse to a set of gpios and probably manage to drive it
> through a set of leds-gpio devices) it does not make it right
> interface for everything. We do have a standard interface for haptic
> (via rumble FF), at this moment I see no reason why we need another
> one. It just confuses userspace as it now needs to implement multiple
> interfaces, depending on the system it runs. Android expects that HAL
> will take care of hiding all of that from their upper layers and does
> not really pay close attention to kernel ABIs, but I think we should.

Generally I agree, provided that user will be able to achieve the
same using force feedback device as in case of LED transient
trigger, with the same easy guidance on how to employ it to do this
particular task with given hardware configuration.

-- 
Best regards,
Jacek Anaszewski

Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Pavel Machek]

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Hi!

> > If your objection is that FF is not easily engaged from the shell -
> > yes, but I do not think that actual users who want to do vibration do
> > that via shell either. On the other hand, can you drop privileges and
> > still allow a certain process control your vibrator via LED interface?
> > With FF you can pass an FD to whoever you deem worthy and later revoke
> > access.
> > 
> > IOW sysfs interfaces are nice for quick hacks, but when you want to
> > use them in real frameworks, where you need to think about proper
> > namespaces, isolation, etc, etc, other kinds of interfaces might suit
> > better.
> 
> I'd leave the decision to the user. We could add a note to the
> Documentation/leds/ledtrig-transient.txt that force feedback interface
> should be preferable choice for driving vibrate devices.

We don't want to leave decision to the user; because then we'll end up
with userland applications having to support _both_ interfaces.

Plus, it is not really your decision. Dmitry is maintainer of input
subsystem, input was doing force feedback for 10+ years, and he
already made a decision.

> However only if following conditions are met:
> - force feedback driver supports gpio driven devices
> - there is sample application in tools/input showing how to
>   setup gpio driven vibrate device with use of ff interface
> - it will be possible to setup vibrate interval with 1ms accuracy,
>   similarly to what the discussed patch allows to do

I agree these would be nice. Interested parties are welcome to help
there. But I don't think this should have any impact on LED
susbystem. Force feedback just does not belong to LED subsystem.

Best regards,
									Pavel
-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

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Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Pavel Machek]

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Hi!

> > However only if following conditions are met:
> > - force feedback driver supports gpio driven devices

INPUT_PWM_VIBRA option was just merged into v4.14.

 									Pavel



-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

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Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Jacek Anaszewski]

Hi,

On 09/17/2017 08:22 PM, Pavel Machek wrote:
> Hi!
> 
>>> If your objection is that FF is not easily engaged from the shell -
>>> yes, but I do not think that actual users who want to do vibration do
>>> that via shell either. On the other hand, can you drop privileges and
>>> still allow a certain process control your vibrator via LED interface?
>>> With FF you can pass an FD to whoever you deem worthy and later revoke
>>> access.
>>>
>>> IOW sysfs interfaces are nice for quick hacks, but when you want to
>>> use them in real frameworks, where you need to think about proper
>>> namespaces, isolation, etc, etc, other kinds of interfaces might suit
>>> better.
>>
>> I'd leave the decision to the user. We could add a note to the
>> Documentation/leds/ledtrig-transient.txt that force feedback interface
>> should be preferable choice for driving vibrate devices.
> 
> We don't want to leave decision to the user; because then we'll end up
> with userland applications having to support _both_ interfaces.

This state has lasted for five years now. I don't recall any
complaints. Do you?

> Plus, it is not really your decision. Dmitry is maintainer of input
> subsystem, input was doing force feedback for 10+ years, and he
> already made a decision.

It seems that you applied a fait accompli method here.

Actually could you share what the decision is? AFAIK we're not
discussing here any patch for the input subsystem?

>> However only if following conditions are met:
>> - force feedback driver supports gpio driven devices
>> - there is sample application in tools/input showing how to
>>   setup gpio driven vibrate device with use of ff interface
>> - it will be possible to setup vibrate interval with 1ms accuracy,
>>   similarly to what the discussed patch allows to do
> 
> I agree these would be nice. Interested parties are welcome to help
> there. But I don't think this should have any impact on LED
> susbystem. Force feedback just does not belong to LED subsystem.

You cut off important piece of my text from the beginning of this
paragraph. It was:

> I'd leave the decision to the user. We could add a note to the
> Documentation/leds/ledtrig-transient.txt that force feedback interface
> should be preferable choice for driving vibrate devices.
> However only if following conditions are met:

What I meant is that it is my decision, as a LED subsystem maintainer,
to accept the addition of a note about some other subsystem offering
an equivalent or even better substitute of the feature being available
in the subsystem I am responsible for. And I will accept such a patch
only if mentioned conditions are met.

-- 
Best regards,
Jacek Anaszewski

Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Dmitry Torokhov]

On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 1:50 PM, Jacek Anaszewski
<jacek.anaszewski@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On 09/17/2017 08:22 PM, Pavel Machek wrote:
>> Hi!
>>
>>>> If your objection is that FF is not easily engaged from the shell -
>>>> yes, but I do not think that actual users who want to do vibration do
>>>> that via shell either. On the other hand, can you drop privileges and
>>>> still allow a certain process control your vibrator via LED interface?
>>>> With FF you can pass an FD to whoever you deem worthy and later revoke
>>>> access.
>>>>
>>>> IOW sysfs interfaces are nice for quick hacks, but when you want to
>>>> use them in real frameworks, where you need to think about proper
>>>> namespaces, isolation, etc, etc, other kinds of interfaces might suit
>>>> better.
>>>
>>> I'd leave the decision to the user. We could add a note to the
>>> Documentation/leds/ledtrig-transient.txt that force feedback interface
>>> should be preferable choice for driving vibrate devices.
>>
>> We don't want to leave decision to the user; because then we'll end up
>> with userland applications having to support _both_ interfaces.
>
> This state has lasted for five years now. I don't recall any
> complaints. Do you?

I was telling Shuah 5 years ago that using LED for what she wanted was
not the right idea. I even made a patch for her implementing the
functionality they were after: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/4/10/41

Unfortunately this still somehow made it into the kernel. I guess the
angle of having LEDs auto-shutoff makes sense still; using it for
haptics does not.

>
>> Plus, it is not really your decision. Dmitry is maintainer of input
>> subsystem, input was doing force feedback for 10+ years, and he
>> already made a decision.
>
> It seems that you applied a fait accompli method here.
>
> Actually could you share what the decision is? AFAIK we're not
> discussing here any patch for the input subsystem?

No, we are discussing if it makes sense encouraging 2nd interface for
haptic. We are also discussing whether it makes sense to implement new
features in LED subsystem that seem to be only beneficial for this
interface (I assume the "normal" LEDs do not need that kind of
precision?).

>
>>> However only if following conditions are met:
>>> - force feedback driver supports gpio driven devices
>>> - there is sample application in tools/input showing how to
>>>   setup gpio driven vibrate device with use of ff interface
>>> - it will be possible to setup vibrate interval with 1ms accuracy,
>>>   similarly to what the discussed patch allows to do
>>
>> I agree these would be nice. Interested parties are welcome to help
>> there. But I don't think this should have any impact on LED
>> susbystem. Force feedback just does not belong to LED subsystem.
>
> You cut off important piece of my text from the beginning of this
> paragraph. It was:
>
>> I'd leave the decision to the user. We could add a note to the
>> Documentation/leds/ledtrig-transient.txt that force feedback interface
>> should be preferable choice for driving vibrate devices.
>> However only if following conditions are met:
>
> What I meant is that it is my decision, as a LED subsystem maintainer,
> to accept the addition of a note about some other subsystem offering
> an equivalent or even better substitute of the feature being available
> in the subsystem I am responsible for. And I will accept such a patch
> only if mentioned conditions are met.

Having the wording in documentation does not in any way stops Android
folks from continuing [ab]using the transient trigger. But this is
their choice. The purpose of documentation is to document the best
practices, not all possible crazy solutions one can come up with.

Thanks.

-- 
Dmitry

Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Jacek Anaszewski]

On 09/19/2017 12:29 AM, Dmitry Torokhov wrote:
> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 1:50 PM, Jacek Anaszewski
> <jacek.anaszewski@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 09/17/2017 08:22 PM, Pavel Machek wrote:
>>> Hi!
>>>
>>>>> If your objection is that FF is not easily engaged from the shell -
>>>>> yes, but I do not think that actual users who want to do vibration do
>>>>> that via shell either. On the other hand, can you drop privileges and
>>>>> still allow a certain process control your vibrator via LED interface?
>>>>> With FF you can pass an FD to whoever you deem worthy and later revoke
>>>>> access.
>>>>>
>>>>> IOW sysfs interfaces are nice for quick hacks, but when you want to
>>>>> use them in real frameworks, where you need to think about proper
>>>>> namespaces, isolation, etc, etc, other kinds of interfaces might suit
>>>>> better.
>>>>
>>>> I'd leave the decision to the user. We could add a note to the
>>>> Documentation/leds/ledtrig-transient.txt that force feedback interface
>>>> should be preferable choice for driving vibrate devices.
>>>
>>> We don't want to leave decision to the user; because then we'll end up
>>> with userland applications having to support _both_ interfaces.
>>
>> This state has lasted for five years now. I don't recall any
>> complaints. Do you?
> 
> I was telling Shuah 5 years ago that using LED for what she wanted was
> not the right idea. I even made a patch for her implementing the
> functionality they were after: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/4/10/41
> 
> Unfortunately this still somehow made it into the kernel. I guess the
> angle of having LEDs auto-shutoff makes sense still; using it for
> haptics does not.

Thanks for the pointer.

>>
>>> Plus, it is not really your decision. Dmitry is maintainer of input
>>> subsystem, input was doing force feedback for 10+ years, and he
>>> already made a decision.
>>
>> It seems that you applied a fait accompli method here.
>>
>> Actually could you share what the decision is? AFAIK we're not
>> discussing here any patch for the input subsystem?
> 
> No, we are discussing if it makes sense encouraging 2nd interface for
> haptic. We are also discussing whether it makes sense to implement new
> features in LED subsystem that seem to be only beneficial for this
> interface (I assume the "normal" LEDs do not need that kind of
> precision?).

As you noticed in one of the previous messages, thanks to the leds-gpio
driver we can drive a wide range of devices from the level of
LED subsystem. LED trigger mechanism makes it even more versatile,
and, in this area, even somehow akin to the GPIO subsystem. In the
future we could think of making this trigger mechanism accessible by
the two and thus any initiative aiming at enhancing it shouldn't be
discouraged.

>>>> However only if following conditions are met:
>>>> - force feedback driver supports gpio driven devices
>>>> - there is sample application in tools/input showing how to
>>>>   setup gpio driven vibrate device with use of ff interface
>>>> - it will be possible to setup vibrate interval with 1ms accuracy,
>>>>   similarly to what the discussed patch allows to do
>>>
>>> I agree these would be nice. Interested parties are welcome to help
>>> there. But I don't think this should have any impact on LED
>>> susbystem. Force feedback just does not belong to LED subsystem.
>>
>> You cut off important piece of my text from the beginning of this
>> paragraph. It was:
>>
>>> I'd leave the decision to the user. We could add a note to the
>>> Documentation/leds/ledtrig-transient.txt that force feedback interface
>>> should be preferable choice for driving vibrate devices.
>>> However only if following conditions are met:
>>
>> What I meant is that it is my decision, as a LED subsystem maintainer,
>> to accept the addition of a note about some other subsystem offering
>> an equivalent or even better substitute of the feature being available
>> in the subsystem I am responsible for. And I will accept such a patch
>> only if mentioned conditions are met.
> 
> Having the wording in documentation does not in any way stops Android
> folks from continuing [ab]using the transient trigger. But this is
> their choice. The purpose of documentation is to document the best
> practices, not all possible crazy solutions one can come up with.

Yes. but if the information has been in place for years, we can't
just remove it without giving an instruction on how to use the
substitute.

-- 
Best regards,
Jacek Anaszewski

Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Dmitry Torokhov]

On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:45 PM, Jacek Anaszewski
<jacek.anaszewski@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 09/19/2017 12:29 AM, Dmitry Torokhov wrote:
>> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 1:50 PM, Jacek Anaszewski
>> <jacek.anaszewski@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On 09/17/2017 08:22 PM, Pavel Machek wrote:
>>>> Hi!
>>>>
>>>>>> If your objection is that FF is not easily engaged from the shell -
>>>>>> yes, but I do not think that actual users who want to do vibration do
>>>>>> that via shell either. On the other hand, can you drop privileges and
>>>>>> still allow a certain process control your vibrator via LED interface?
>>>>>> With FF you can pass an FD to whoever you deem worthy and later revoke
>>>>>> access.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> IOW sysfs interfaces are nice for quick hacks, but when you want to
>>>>>> use them in real frameworks, where you need to think about proper
>>>>>> namespaces, isolation, etc, etc, other kinds of interfaces might suit
>>>>>> better.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd leave the decision to the user. We could add a note to the
>>>>> Documentation/leds/ledtrig-transient.txt that force feedback interface
>>>>> should be preferable choice for driving vibrate devices.
>>>>
>>>> We don't want to leave decision to the user; because then we'll end up
>>>> with userland applications having to support _both_ interfaces.
>>>
>>> This state has lasted for five years now. I don't recall any
>>> complaints. Do you?
>>
>> I was telling Shuah 5 years ago that using LED for what she wanted was
>> not the right idea. I even made a patch for her implementing the
>> functionality they were after: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/4/10/41
>>
>> Unfortunately this still somehow made it into the kernel. I guess the
>> angle of having LEDs auto-shutoff makes sense still; using it for
>> haptics does not.
>
> Thanks for the pointer.
>
>>>
>>>> Plus, it is not really your decision. Dmitry is maintainer of input
>>>> subsystem, input was doing force feedback for 10+ years, and he
>>>> already made a decision.
>>>
>>> It seems that you applied a fait accompli method here.
>>>
>>> Actually could you share what the decision is? AFAIK we're not
>>> discussing here any patch for the input subsystem?
>>
>> No, we are discussing if it makes sense encouraging 2nd interface for
>> haptic. We are also discussing whether it makes sense to implement new
>> features in LED subsystem that seem to be only beneficial for this
>> interface (I assume the "normal" LEDs do not need that kind of
>> precision?).
>
> As you noticed in one of the previous messages, thanks to the leds-gpio
> driver we can drive a wide range of devices from the level of
> LED subsystem.

Yes, you can create whatever. It goes normally as this: crap, we need
to ship something really soon, factory build is a week from now and we
have absolutely no time to think about proper interface. Hey, let's
quickly bolt on some quirk on an unrelated interface, it almost does
what we want. We do not care that out use case does not really fit
here, our custom one-off userspace will know how to deal with it.

> LED trigger mechanism makes it even more versatile,
> and, in this area, even somehow akin to the GPIO subsystem. In the
> future we could think of making this trigger mechanism accessible by
> the two and thus any initiative aiming at enhancing it shouldn't be
> discouraged.

If there is a use case that would benefit from this functionality:
certainly. Do you have one in mind?

Thanks.

-- 
Dmitry

Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Jacek Anaszewski]

On 09/19/2017 11:07 PM, Dmitry Torokhov wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 19, 2017 at 1:45 PM, Jacek Anaszewski
> <jacek.anaszewski@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 09/19/2017 12:29 AM, Dmitry Torokhov wrote:
>>> On Mon, Sep 18, 2017 at 1:50 PM, Jacek Anaszewski
>>> <jacek.anaszewski@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Hi,
>>>>
>>>> On 09/17/2017 08:22 PM, Pavel Machek wrote:
>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>
>>>>>>> If your objection is that FF is not easily engaged from the shell -
>>>>>>> yes, but I do not think that actual users who want to do vibration do
>>>>>>> that via shell either. On the other hand, can you drop privileges and
>>>>>>> still allow a certain process control your vibrator via LED interface?
>>>>>>> With FF you can pass an FD to whoever you deem worthy and later revoke
>>>>>>> access.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> IOW sysfs interfaces are nice for quick hacks, but when you want to
>>>>>>> use them in real frameworks, where you need to think about proper
>>>>>>> namespaces, isolation, etc, etc, other kinds of interfaces might suit
>>>>>>> better.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd leave the decision to the user. We could add a note to the
>>>>>> Documentation/leds/ledtrig-transient.txt that force feedback interface
>>>>>> should be preferable choice for driving vibrate devices.
>>>>>
>>>>> We don't want to leave decision to the user; because then we'll end up
>>>>> with userland applications having to support _both_ interfaces.
>>>>
>>>> This state has lasted for five years now. I don't recall any
>>>> complaints. Do you?
>>>
>>> I was telling Shuah 5 years ago that using LED for what she wanted was
>>> not the right idea. I even made a patch for her implementing the
>>> functionality they were after: https://lkml.org/lkml/2012/4/10/41
>>>
>>> Unfortunately this still somehow made it into the kernel. I guess the
>>> angle of having LEDs auto-shutoff makes sense still; using it for
>>> haptics does not.
>>
>> Thanks for the pointer.
>>
>>>>
>>>>> Plus, it is not really your decision. Dmitry is maintainer of input
>>>>> subsystem, input was doing force feedback for 10+ years, and he
>>>>> already made a decision.
>>>>
>>>> It seems that you applied a fait accompli method here.
>>>>
>>>> Actually could you share what the decision is? AFAIK we're not
>>>> discussing here any patch for the input subsystem?
>>>
>>> No, we are discussing if it makes sense encouraging 2nd interface for
>>> haptic. We are also discussing whether it makes sense to implement new
>>> features in LED subsystem that seem to be only beneficial for this
>>> interface (I assume the "normal" LEDs do not need that kind of
>>> precision?).
>>
>> As you noticed in one of the previous messages, thanks to the leds-gpio
>> driver we can drive a wide range of devices from the level of
>> LED subsystem.
> 
> Yes, you can create whatever. It goes normally as this: crap, we need
> to ship something really soon, factory build is a week from now and we
> have absolutely no time to think about proper interface. Hey, let's
> quickly bolt on some quirk on an unrelated interface, it almost does
> what we want. We do not care that out use case does not really fit
> here, our custom one-off userspace will know how to deal with it.
> 
>> LED trigger mechanism makes it even more versatile,
>> and, in this area, even somehow akin to the GPIO subsystem. In the
>> future we could think of making this trigger mechanism accessible by
>> the two and thus any initiative aiming at enhancing it shouldn't be
>> discouraged.
> 
> If there is a use case that would benefit from this functionality:
> certainly. Do you have one in mind?

Few minutes of googling gave below results. People are doing that
anyway so adding EXPERIMENTAL support in mainline maybe wouldn't
be such a wrong idea. It seems that there would be many testers.

[0]
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/16534668/how-to-generate-a-steady-37khz-gpio-trigger-from-inside-linux-kernel
[1]
https://discuss.96boards.org/t/generate-high-frequency-square-wave-on-a-gpio-pin/2615/4
[2]
https://stackoverflow.com/questions/4634991/how-to-generate-100khz-clock-signal-in-liunx-kernel-module-with-bit-banging
[3] http://www.friendlyarm.net/forum/topic/3566
[4] http://codeandlife.com/2016/04/18/beaglebone-black-gpio-benchmark/
[5] https://www.raspberrypi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?t=56748
-- 
Best regards,
Jacek Anaszewski

Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Pavel Machek]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1392 bytes --]

> >>> I'd leave the decision to the user. We could add a note to the
> >>> Documentation/leds/ledtrig-transient.txt that force feedback interface
> >>> should be preferable choice for driving vibrate devices.
> >>> However only if following conditions are met:
> >>
> >> What I meant is that it is my decision, as a LED subsystem maintainer,
> >> to accept the addition of a note about some other subsystem offering
> >> an equivalent or even better substitute of the feature being available
> >> in the subsystem I am responsible for. And I will accept such a patch
> >> only if mentioned conditions are met.
> > 
> > Having the wording in documentation does not in any way stops Android
> > folks from continuing [ab]using the transient trigger. But this is
> > their choice. The purpose of documentation is to document the best
> > practices, not all possible crazy solutions one can come up with.
> 
> Yes. but if the information has been in place for years, we can't
> just remove it without giving an instruction on how to use the
> substitute.

I gave you information how to use the substitute.

I already suggested patch to documentation. If you do the same, maybe
we can agree on documentation update.

									Pavel
-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

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Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Jacek Anaszewski]

On 09/20/2017 01:29 PM, Pavel Machek wrote:
>>>>> I'd leave the decision to the user. We could add a note to the
>>>>> Documentation/leds/ledtrig-transient.txt that force feedback interface
>>>>> should be preferable choice for driving vibrate devices.
>>>>> However only if following conditions are met:
>>>>
>>>> What I meant is that it is my decision, as a LED subsystem maintainer,
>>>> to accept the addition of a note about some other subsystem offering
>>>> an equivalent or even better substitute of the feature being available
>>>> in the subsystem I am responsible for. And I will accept such a patch
>>>> only if mentioned conditions are met.
>>>
>>> Having the wording in documentation does not in any way stops Android
>>> folks from continuing [ab]using the transient trigger. But this is
>>> their choice. The purpose of documentation is to document the best
>>> practices, not all possible crazy solutions one can come up with.
>>
>> Yes. but if the information has been in place for years, we can't
>> just remove it without giving an instruction on how to use the
>> substitute.
> 
> I gave you information how to use the substitute.

That information was quite vague. I'd like to see a sample application
in tools/input.

> I already suggested patch to documentation. If you do the same, maybe
> we can agree on documentation update.

Your patch was just removing few lines of documentation. I'd expect more
empathic approach to the current users, i.e.:

- pointer to the sample application in tools/input showing how to
  setup gpio driven vibrate device with use of ff interface with
  1kHz vibration frequency.


-- 
Best regards,
Jacek Anaszewski

Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Pavel Machek]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2075 bytes --]

On Wed 2017-09-20 22:08:42, Jacek Anaszewski wrote:
> On 09/20/2017 01:29 PM, Pavel Machek wrote:
> >>>>> I'd leave the decision to the user. We could add a note to the
> >>>>> Documentation/leds/ledtrig-transient.txt that force feedback interface
> >>>>> should be preferable choice for driving vibrate devices.
> >>>>> However only if following conditions are met:
> >>>>
> >>>> What I meant is that it is my decision, as a LED subsystem maintainer,
> >>>> to accept the addition of a note about some other subsystem offering
> >>>> an equivalent or even better substitute of the feature being available
> >>>> in the subsystem I am responsible for. And I will accept such a patch
> >>>> only if mentioned conditions are met.
> >>>
> >>> Having the wording in documentation does not in any way stops Android
> >>> folks from continuing [ab]using the transient trigger. But this is
> >>> their choice. The purpose of documentation is to document the best
> >>> practices, not all possible crazy solutions one can come up with.
> >>
> >> Yes. but if the information has been in place for years, we can't
> >> just remove it without giving an instruction on how to use the
> >> substitute.
> > 
> > I gave you information how to use the substitute.
> 
> That information was quite vague. I'd like to see a sample application
> in tools/input.

So please write it.

> > I already suggested patch to documentation. If you do the same, maybe
> > we can agree on documentation update.
> 
> Your patch was just removing few lines of documentation. I'd expect more
> empathic approach to the current users, i.e.:
> 
> - pointer to the sample application in tools/input showing how to
>   setup gpio driven vibrate device with use of ff interface with
>   1kHz vibration frequency.

Yes, my patch is removing dangerously misleading documentation about
LED subsystem.

Please apply it.
									Pavel
-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

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Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Jacek Anaszewski]

On 10/06/2017 01:48 PM, Pavel Machek wrote:
> On Wed 2017-09-20 22:08:42, Jacek Anaszewski wrote:
>> On 09/20/2017 01:29 PM, Pavel Machek wrote:
>>>>>>> I'd leave the decision to the user. We could add a note to the
>>>>>>> Documentation/leds/ledtrig-transient.txt that force feedback interface
>>>>>>> should be preferable choice for driving vibrate devices.
>>>>>>> However only if following conditions are met:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What I meant is that it is my decision, as a LED subsystem maintainer,
>>>>>> to accept the addition of a note about some other subsystem offering
>>>>>> an equivalent or even better substitute of the feature being available
>>>>>> in the subsystem I am responsible for. And I will accept such a patch
>>>>>> only if mentioned conditions are met.
>>>>>
>>>>> Having the wording in documentation does not in any way stops Android
>>>>> folks from continuing [ab]using the transient trigger. But this is
>>>>> their choice. The purpose of documentation is to document the best
>>>>> practices, not all possible crazy solutions one can come up with.
>>>>
>>>> Yes. but if the information has been in place for years, we can't
>>>> just remove it without giving an instruction on how to use the
>>>> substitute.
>>>
>>> I gave you information how to use the substitute.
>>
>> That information was quite vague. I'd like to see a sample application
>> in tools/input.
> 
> So please write it.

This is my demand as a reviewer. I've already laid out the conditions
under which I'll accept the patch. It seems that you're proficient
in the subject enough to cope with this task.

>>> I already suggested patch to documentation. If you do the same, maybe
>>> we can agree on documentation update.
>>
>> Your patch was just removing few lines of documentation. I'd expect more
>> empathic approach to the current users, i.e.:
>>
>> - pointer to the sample application in tools/input showing how to
>>   setup gpio driven vibrate device with use of ff interface with
>>   1kHz vibration frequency.
> 
> Yes, my patch is removing dangerously misleading documentation about
> LED subsystem.

It's neither dangerous nor misleading.

> Please apply it.

Right after I'll get the patch with the tool showing how to use
input subsystem to achieve the same effect as with use of
ledtrig-transient.

-- 
Best regards,
Jacek Anaszewski

Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Pavel Machek]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1785 bytes --]

Hi!

> >> However only if following conditions are met:
> >> - force feedback driver supports gpio driven devices
> >> - there is sample application in tools/input showing how to
> >>   setup gpio driven vibrate device with use of ff interface
> >> - it will be possible to setup vibrate interval with 1ms accuracy,
> >>   similarly to what the discussed patch allows to do
> > 
> > I agree these would be nice. Interested parties are welcome to help
> > there. But I don't think this should have any impact on LED
> > susbystem. Force feedback just does not belong to LED subsystem.
> 
> You cut off important piece of my text from the beginning of this
> paragraph. It was:
> 
> > I'd leave the decision to the user. We could add a note to the
> > Documentation/leds/ledtrig-transient.txt that force feedback interface
> > should be preferable choice for driving vibrate devices.
> > However only if following conditions are met:

And that's very bad idea.

As a user of these interfaces, I am telling you: I want _single_
kernel interface to control vibration. Not different interfaces
depending on which phone I'm running at.

> What I meant is that it is my decision, as a LED subsystem maintainer,
> to accept the addition of a note about some other subsystem offering
> an equivalent or even better substitute of the feature being available
> in the subsystem I am responsible for. And I will accept such a patch
> only if mentioned conditions are met.

If you want to improve input, please go ahead.

If you want to encourage haptic feedback to use LED subsystem, that is
not welcome.
									Pavel
-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

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Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[David Lin]

Dmitry,

On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 3:30 PM, Dmitry Torokhov
<dmitry.torokhov@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:55 PM, Jacek Anaszewski
> <jacek.anaszewski@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 09/15/2017 08:34 PM, Dmitry Torokhov wrote:
>>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 1:58 PM, Pavel Machek <pavel@ucw.cz> wrote:
>>>> On Thu 2017-09-14 21:31:31, Jacek Anaszewski wrote:
>>>>> Hi David and Pavel,
>>>>>
>>>>> On 09/13/2017 10:20 PM, Pavel Machek wrote:
>>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> These patch series add the LED_BRIGHTNESS_FAST flag support for
>>>>>>> ledtrig-transient to use hrtimer so that platforms with high-resolution timer
>>>>>>> support can have better accuracy in the trigger duration timing. The need for
>>>>>>> this support is driven by the fact that Android has removed the timed_ouput [1]
>>>>>>> and is now using led-trigger for handling vibrator control which requires the
>>>>>>> timer to be accurate up to a millisecond. However, this flag support would also
>>>>>>> allow hrtimer to co-exist with the ktimer without causing warning to the
>>>>>>> existing drivers [2].
>>>>>>
>>>>>> NAK.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> LEDs do not need extra overhead, and vibrator control should not go
>>>>>> through LED subsystem.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Input subsystem includes support for vibrations and force
>>>>>> feedback. Please use that instead.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think that most vital criterion here is the usability of the
>>>>> interface. If it can be harnessed for doing the work seemingly
>>>>> unrelated to the primary subsystem's purpose, that's fine.
>>>>> Moreover, it is extremely easy to use in comparison to the force
>>>>> feedback one.
>>>>
>>>> Well, no.
>>>>
>>>> Kernel is supposed to provide hardware abstraction, that means it
>>>> should hide differences between different devices.
>>>>
>>>> And we already have devices using input as designed. We don't want to
>>>> have situation where "on phones A, D and E, vibrations are handled via
>>>> input, while on B, C and F, they are handled via /sys/class/leds".
>>>>
>>>> If we want to have discussion "how to make vibrations in input
>>>> easier to use", well that's fair. But I don't think it is particulary hard.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I would like to know more about why you find the FF interface hard,
>>
>> led-transient trigger can be activated using only following bash
>> commands:
>>
>> # echo 1 > state
>> # echo 1000 > duration
>> # while [ 1 ]; do echo 1 > activate; sleep 3; done
>>
>> Could you share sample sequence of commands to use ff driver?
>
> Cut what you need from this:
> https://github.com/flosse/linuxconsole/blob/master/utils/fftest.c
>
> If your objection is that FF is not easily engaged from the shell -
> yes, but I do not think that actual users who want to do vibration do
> that via shell either. On the other hand, can you drop privileges and
> still allow a certain process control your vibrator via LED interface?
> With FF you can pass an FD to whoever you deem worthy and later revoke
> access.
>
> IOW sysfs interfaces are nice for quick hacks, but when you want to
> use them in real frameworks, where you need to think about proper
> namespaces, isolation, etc, etc, other kinds of interfaces might suit
> better.
>
>>
>>> given that for rumble you need calls - one ioctl to set up rumble
>>> parameters, and a write to start the playback. The FF core should take
>>> care of handling duration of the effect, ramping it up and decaying,
>>> if desired, and we make sure to automatically stop effects when
>>> userspace closes the fd (because of ordinary exit or crash or FD being
>>> revoked).
>>>
>>>> If we want to say "lets move all vibrations from input to LED
>>>> subsystem"... I don't think that is good idea, but its a valid
>>>> discussion. Some good reasons would be needed.
>>>>
>>>> But having half devices use one interface and half use different one
>>>> is just bad...
>>>
>>> Completely agree here. I just merged PWM vibra driver from Sebastian
>>> Reichel, we already had regulator-haptic driver, do we need gpio-based
>>> one? Or make regulator-based one working with fixed regulators?
>>
>> Just to clarify: the background of this discussion is the question
>> whether we should remove the following lines from
>> Documentation/leds/ledtrig-transient.txt:
>>
>> -As a specific example of this use-case, let's look at vibrate feature on
>> -phones. Vibrate function on phones is implemented using PWM pins on SoC or
>> -PMIC. There is a need to activate one shot timer to control the vibrate
>> -feature, to prevent user space crashes leaving the phone in vibrate mode
>> -permanently causing the battery to drain.
>> whether we should remove the following use case example from
>>
>> In effect Pavel has objections to increasing ledtrig-transient
>> interval accuracy by adding hr_timer support to it, because vibrate
>> devices, as one of the use cases, can benefit from it.
>>
>> So there are two issues:
>> 1. Addition of hr_timer support to LED trigger.
>> 2. Removal of vibrate devices use case from ledtrig-transient doc.
>>
>> I am in favour of 1. and against 2. since we're not gaining anything
>> by hiding information about some kernel functionality when it will
>> still be there. It also doesn't define the location of any vibrate
>> device drivers, since sheer leds-gpio driver can be used for that
>> purpose.
>
> I would say that while leds-gpio can be used to do whatever (you can
> wire PS/2 mouse to a set of gpios and probably manage to drive it
> through a set of leds-gpio devices) it does not make it right
> interface for everything. We do have a standard interface for haptic
> (via rumble FF), at this moment I see no reason why we need another
> one. It just confuses userspace as it now needs to implement multiple
> interfaces, depending on the system it runs. Android expects that HAL
> will take care of hiding all of that from their upper layers and does
> not really pay close attention to kernel ABIs, but I think we should.

One thing I noticed is that input_ff_create_memless() also does not
use high-resolution timer hence it also does not have the stop-time
precision that I'm looking for.

Another thing is that ff_reply duration value is maxed-out at 32767 ms
(u16) while the Android/userspace requires size long for performing
long notification alert.

David

Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Dmitry Torokhov]

On September 27, 2017 10:03:28 PM PDT, David Lin <dtwlin@google.com> wrote:
>Dmitry,
>
>On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 3:30 PM, Dmitry Torokhov
><dmitry.torokhov@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:55 PM, Jacek Anaszewski
>> <jacek.anaszewski@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On 09/15/2017 08:34 PM, Dmitry Torokhov wrote:
>>>> On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 1:58 PM, Pavel Machek <pavel@ucw.cz> wrote:
>>>>> On Thu 2017-09-14 21:31:31, Jacek Anaszewski wrote:
>>>>>> Hi David and Pavel,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 09/13/2017 10:20 PM, Pavel Machek wrote:
>>>>>>> Hi!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> These patch series add the LED_BRIGHTNESS_FAST flag support for
>>>>>>>> ledtrig-transient to use hrtimer so that platforms with
>high-resolution timer
>>>>>>>> support can have better accuracy in the trigger duration
>timing. The need for
>>>>>>>> this support is driven by the fact that Android has removed the
>timed_ouput [1]
>>>>>>>> and is now using led-trigger for handling vibrator control
>which requires the
>>>>>>>> timer to be accurate up to a millisecond. However, this flag
>support would also
>>>>>>>> allow hrtimer to co-exist with the ktimer without causing
>warning to the
>>>>>>>> existing drivers [2].
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> NAK.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> LEDs do not need extra overhead, and vibrator control should not
>go
>>>>>>> through LED subsystem.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Input subsystem includes support for vibrations and force
>>>>>>> feedback. Please use that instead.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think that most vital criterion here is the usability of the
>>>>>> interface. If it can be harnessed for doing the work seemingly
>>>>>> unrelated to the primary subsystem's purpose, that's fine.
>>>>>> Moreover, it is extremely easy to use in comparison to the force
>>>>>> feedback one.
>>>>>
>>>>> Well, no.
>>>>>
>>>>> Kernel is supposed to provide hardware abstraction, that means it
>>>>> should hide differences between different devices.
>>>>>
>>>>> And we already have devices using input as designed. We don't want
>to
>>>>> have situation where "on phones A, D and E, vibrations are handled
>via
>>>>> input, while on B, C and F, they are handled via /sys/class/leds".
>>>>>
>>>>> If we want to have discussion "how to make vibrations in input
>>>>> easier to use", well that's fair. But I don't think it is
>particulary hard.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I would like to know more about why you find the FF interface hard,
>>>
>>> led-transient trigger can be activated using only following bash
>>> commands:
>>>
>>> # echo 1 > state
>>> # echo 1000 > duration
>>> # while [ 1 ]; do echo 1 > activate; sleep 3; done
>>>
>>> Could you share sample sequence of commands to use ff driver?
>>
>> Cut what you need from this:
>> https://github.com/flosse/linuxconsole/blob/master/utils/fftest.c
>>
>> If your objection is that FF is not easily engaged from the shell -
>> yes, but I do not think that actual users who want to do vibration do
>> that via shell either. On the other hand, can you drop privileges and
>> still allow a certain process control your vibrator via LED
>interface?
>> With FF you can pass an FD to whoever you deem worthy and later
>revoke
>> access.
>>
>> IOW sysfs interfaces are nice for quick hacks, but when you want to
>> use them in real frameworks, where you need to think about proper
>> namespaces, isolation, etc, etc, other kinds of interfaces might suit
>> better.
>>
>>>
>>>> given that for rumble you need calls - one ioctl to set up rumble
>>>> parameters, and a write to start the playback. The FF core should
>take
>>>> care of handling duration of the effect, ramping it up and
>decaying,
>>>> if desired, and we make sure to automatically stop effects when
>>>> userspace closes the fd (because of ordinary exit or crash or FD
>being
>>>> revoked).
>>>>
>>>>> If we want to say "lets move all vibrations from input to LED
>>>>> subsystem"... I don't think that is good idea, but its a valid
>>>>> discussion. Some good reasons would be needed.
>>>>>
>>>>> But having half devices use one interface and half use different
>one
>>>>> is just bad...
>>>>
>>>> Completely agree here. I just merged PWM vibra driver from
>Sebastian
>>>> Reichel, we already had regulator-haptic driver, do we need
>gpio-based
>>>> one? Or make regulator-based one working with fixed regulators?
>>>
>>> Just to clarify: the background of this discussion is the question
>>> whether we should remove the following lines from
>>> Documentation/leds/ledtrig-transient.txt:
>>>
>>> -As a specific example of this use-case, let's look at vibrate
>feature on
>>> -phones. Vibrate function on phones is implemented using PWM pins on
>SoC or
>>> -PMIC. There is a need to activate one shot timer to control the
>vibrate
>>> -feature, to prevent user space crashes leaving the phone in vibrate
>mode
>>> -permanently causing the battery to drain.
>>> whether we should remove the following use case example from
>>>
>>> In effect Pavel has objections to increasing ledtrig-transient
>>> interval accuracy by adding hr_timer support to it, because vibrate
>>> devices, as one of the use cases, can benefit from it.
>>>
>>> So there are two issues:
>>> 1. Addition of hr_timer support to LED trigger.
>>> 2. Removal of vibrate devices use case from ledtrig-transient doc.
>>>
>>> I am in favour of 1. and against 2. since we're not gaining anything
>>> by hiding information about some kernel functionality when it will
>>> still be there. It also doesn't define the location of any vibrate
>>> device drivers, since sheer leds-gpio driver can be used for that
>>> purpose.
>>
>> I would say that while leds-gpio can be used to do whatever (you can
>> wire PS/2 mouse to a set of gpios and probably manage to drive it
>> through a set of leds-gpio devices) it does not make it right
>> interface for everything. We do have a standard interface for haptic
>> (via rumble FF), at this moment I see no reason why we need another
>> one. It just confuses userspace as it now needs to implement multiple
>> interfaces, depending on the system it runs. Android expects that HAL
>> will take care of hiding all of that from their upper layers and does
>> not really pay close attention to kernel ABIs, but I think we should.
>
>One thing I noticed is that input_ff_create_memless() also does not
>use high-resolution timer hence it also does not have the stop-time
>precision that I'm looking for.

I'll take patches for high resolution timers in ff memless, they should also help with more accurate scheduling of ramping up and fading of events.

>
>Another thing is that ff_reply duration value is maxed-out at 32767 ms
>(u16) while the Android/userspace requires size long for performing
>long notification alert.
>

You need unattended vibrations lasting longer than 30 seconds? Anyway, replay.length == 0 means endless IIRC, so you only need to schedule stopping. We still will clean up properly if your process crashes or exits or closes the fd.


Thanks.

-- 
Dmitry

Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[David Lin]

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 10:43 PM, Dmitry Torokhov
<dmitry.torokhov@gmail.com> wrote:
>>One thing I noticed is that input_ff_create_memless() also does not
>>use high-resolution timer hence it also does not have the stop-time
>>precision that I'm looking for.
>
> I'll take patches for high resolution timers in ff memless, they should also help with more accurate scheduling of ramping up and fading of events.

Thanks.

>
>>
>>Another thing is that ff_reply duration value is maxed-out at 32767 ms
>>(u16) while the Android/userspace requires size long for performing
>>long notification alert.
>>
>
> You need unattended vibrations lasting longer than 30 seconds? Anyway, replay.length == 0 means endless IIRC, so you only need to schedule stopping. We still will clean up properly if your process crashes or exits or closes the fd.

Yes, it's up to the application to vibrate for as long as it requires.
Is there any concern making the duration variable a type long? [If
this is getting off-topic, I'll follow up with another email]

Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Dmitry Torokhov]

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 12:22:13PM -0700, David Lin wrote:
> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 10:43 PM, Dmitry Torokhov
> <dmitry.torokhov@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>One thing I noticed is that input_ff_create_memless() also does not
> >>use high-resolution timer hence it also does not have the stop-time
> >>precision that I'm looking for.
> >
> > I'll take patches for high resolution timers in ff memless, they should also help with more accurate scheduling of ramping up and fading of events.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> >
> >>
> >>Another thing is that ff_reply duration value is maxed-out at 32767 ms
> >>(u16) while the Android/userspace requires size long for performing
> >>long notification alert.
> >>
> >
> > You need unattended vibrations lasting longer than 30 seconds? Anyway, replay.length == 0 means endless IIRC, so you only need to schedule stopping. We still will clean up properly if your process crashes or exits or closes the fd.
> 
> Yes, it's up to the application to vibrate for as long as it requires.
> Is there any concern making the duration variable a type long? [If
> this is getting off-topic, I'll follow up with another email]

Yes, given ABI constraints that is not really feasible. I think for
effects longer than 30 seconds you'd have to handle it in the framework
by using replay.length 0 and cancelling the effect some time later.

Thanks.

-- 
Dmitry

Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Pavel Machek]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 2754 bytes --]

Hi!

> >> If we want to have discussion "how to make vibrations in input
> >> easier to use", well that's fair. But I don't think it is particulary hard.
> >>
> > 
> > I would like to know more about why you find the FF interface hard,
> 
> led-transient trigger can be activated using only following bash
> commands:
> 
> # echo 1 > state
> # echo 1000 > duration
> # while [ 1 ]; do echo 1 > activate; sleep 3; done
> 
> Could you share sample sequence of commands to use ff driver?

Well, LED transient trigger can be activated like that. But that will
not work on any hardware currently supported by the mainline kernel.

Equivalent command with forcefeedback is:

(echo 5; sleep 1; echo -1) | sudo fftest /dev/input/event2

You would not want to use either in production.

> >> But having half devices use one interface and half use different one
> >> is just bad...
> > 
> > Completely agree here. I just merged PWM vibra driver from Sebastian
> > Reichel, we already had regulator-haptic driver, do we need gpio-based
> > one? Or make regulator-based one working with fixed regulators?
> 
> Just to clarify: the background of this discussion is the question
> whether we should remove the following lines from
> Documentation/leds/ledtrig-transient.txt:
> 
> -As a specific example of this use-case, let's look at vibrate feature on
> -phones. Vibrate function on phones is implemented using PWM pins on SoC or
> -PMIC. There is a need to activate one shot timer to control the vibrate
> -feature, to prevent user space crashes leaving the phone in vibrate mode
> -permanently causing the battery to drain.
> whether we should remove the following use case example from
> 
> In effect Pavel has objections to increasing ledtrig-transient
> interval accuracy by adding hr_timer support to it, because vibrate
> devices, as one of the use cases, can benefit from it.
> 
> So there are two issues:
> 1. Addition of hr_timer support to LED trigger.
> 2. Removal of vibrate devices use case from ledtrig-transient doc.
> 
> I am in favour of 1. and against 2. since we're not gaining anything
> by hiding information about some kernel functionality when it will
> still be there. It also doesn't define the location of any vibrate
> device drivers, since sheer leds-gpio driver can be used for that
> purpose.

I would like to see reasonable explanation why we want 1. (and
vibrations are not that) and certainly 2. because we don't want people
to use LED subsystem for vibrations.

We already have perfectly good interface for that.
									Pavel
-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

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Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Jacek Anaszewski]

On 09/14/2017 10:58 PM, Pavel Machek wrote:
> On Thu 2017-09-14 21:31:31, Jacek Anaszewski wrote:
>> Hi David and Pavel,
>>
>> On 09/13/2017 10:20 PM, Pavel Machek wrote:
>>> Hi!
>>>
>>>> These patch series add the LED_BRIGHTNESS_FAST flag support for
>>>> ledtrig-transient to use hrtimer so that platforms with high-resolution timer
>>>> support can have better accuracy in the trigger duration timing. The need for
>>>> this support is driven by the fact that Android has removed the timed_ouput [1]
>>>> and is now using led-trigger for handling vibrator control which requires the
>>>> timer to be accurate up to a millisecond. However, this flag support would also
>>>> allow hrtimer to co-exist with the ktimer without causing warning to the
>>>> existing drivers [2].
>>>
>>> NAK.
>>>
>>> LEDs do not need extra overhead, and vibrator control should not go
>>> through LED subsystem.
>>>
>>> Input subsystem includes support for vibrations and force
>>> feedback. Please use that instead.
>>
>> I think that most vital criterion here is the usability of the
>> interface. If it can be harnessed for doing the work seemingly
>> unrelated to the primary subsystem's purpose, that's fine.
>> Moreover, it is extremely easy to use in comparison to the force
>> feedback one.
> 
> Well, no.
> 
> Kernel is supposed to provide hardware abstraction, that means it
> should hide differences between different devices.
> 
> And we already have devices using input as designed. We don't want to
> have situation where "on phones A, D and E, vibrations are handled via
> input, while on B, C and F, they are handled via /sys/class/leds".
> 
> If we want to have discussion "how to make vibrations in input
> easier to use", well that's fair. But I don't think it is particulary hard.
> 
> If we want to say "lets move all vibrations from input to LED
> subsystem"... I don't think that is good idea, but its a valid
> discussion. Some good reasons would be needed.
> 
> But having half devices use one interface and half use different one
> is just bad... especially when only reason to do it that way is
> "David wants to do it that way, android library made a mistake and he
> now wants it to propagate to whole world".

This is not the only reason. Adding hr_timer support to
ledtrig-transient (and similarly to ledtrig-timer) would allow
to increase the accuracy and stability of delay_on/delay_off
intervals at low values.

Do you think such an improvement could be harmful in some way,
even if it was made optional?

-- 
Best regards,
Jacek Anaszewski

Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Pavel Machek]

Hi!

> >>>> These patch series add the LED_BRIGHTNESS_FAST flag support for
> >>>> ledtrig-transient to use hrtimer so that platforms with high-resolution timer
> >>>> support can have better accuracy in the trigger duration timing. The need for
...
> > If we want to say "lets move all vibrations from input to LED
> > subsystem"... I don't think that is good idea, but its a valid
> > discussion. Some good reasons would be needed.
> > 
> > But having half devices use one interface and half use different one
> > is just bad... especially when only reason to do it that way is
> > "David wants to do it that way, android library made a mistake and he
> > now wants it to propagate to whole world".
> 
> This is not the only reason. Adding hr_timer support to
> ledtrig-transient (and similarly to ledtrig-timer) would allow
> to increase the accuracy and stability of delay_on/delay_off
> intervals at low values.
> 
> Do you think such an improvement could be harmful in some way,
> even if it was made optional?

Of course, we can make LED timing accurate down to microseconds. It will
mean increased overhead -- for "improvement" human can not perceive.

If someone has problems with LED delays not being accurate enough... we
may want to fix it. But that is not the case here, is it?
								Pavel

-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Jacek Anaszewski]

Hi,

On 09/16/2017 03:58 AM, Pavel Machek wrote:
> Hi!
> 
>>>>>> These patch series add the LED_BRIGHTNESS_FAST flag support for
>>>>>> ledtrig-transient to use hrtimer so that platforms with high-resolution timer
>>>>>> support can have better accuracy in the trigger duration timing. The need for
> ...
>>> If we want to say "lets move all vibrations from input to LED
>>> subsystem"... I don't think that is good idea, but its a valid
>>> discussion. Some good reasons would be needed.
>>>
>>> But having half devices use one interface and half use different one
>>> is just bad... especially when only reason to do it that way is
>>> "David wants to do it that way, android library made a mistake and he
>>> now wants it to propagate to whole world".
>>
>> This is not the only reason. Adding hr_timer support to
>> ledtrig-transient (and similarly to ledtrig-timer) would allow
>> to increase the accuracy and stability of delay_on/delay_off
>> intervals at low values.
>>
>> Do you think such an improvement could be harmful in some way,
>> even if it was made optional?
> 
> Of course, we can make LED timing accurate down to microseconds. It will
> mean increased overhead -- for "improvement" human can not perceive.
> 
> If someone has problems with LED delays not being accurate enough... we
> may want to fix it. But that is not the case here, is it?

AFAIR David was mentioning that the hr_timer support is perceivable

-- 
Best regards,
Jacek Anaszewski

Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Pavel Machek]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1006 bytes --]

Hi!

> >> Do you think such an improvement could be harmful in some way,
> >> even if it was made optional?
> > 
> > Of course, we can make LED timing accurate down to microseconds. It will
> > mean increased overhead -- for "improvement" human can not perceive.
> > 
> > If someone has problems with LED delays not being accurate enough... we
> > may want to fix it. But that is not the case here, is it?
> 
> AFAIR David was mentioning that the hr_timer support is perceivable

He said that hr_timer support is perceivable _when he is driving
vibration motor_. Which he should not do in the first place.

Yes, if the difference is perceivable with LED in non-crazy
configuration (*), we can take the patch. Is it? Do we have someone
not from Google observing it?

									Pavel
(*) emulating PWM using blink trigger counts as "crazy" :-)


-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

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Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Jacek Anaszewski]

Hi,

On 09/17/2017 07:50 PM, Pavel Machek wrote:
> Hi!
> 
>>>> Do you think such an improvement could be harmful in some way,
>>>> even if it was made optional?
>>>
>>> Of course, we can make LED timing accurate down to microseconds. It will
>>> mean increased overhead -- for "improvement" human can not perceive.
>>>
>>> If someone has problems with LED delays not being accurate enough... we
>>> may want to fix it. But that is not the case here, is it?
>>
>> AFAIR David was mentioning that the hr_timer support is perceivable
> 
> He said that hr_timer support is perceivable _when he is driving
> vibration motor_. Which he should not do in the first place.
> 
> Yes, if the difference is perceivable with LED in non-crazy
> configuration (*), we can take the patch. Is it? Do we have someone
> not from Google observing it?
> 
> 									Pavel
> (*) emulating PWM using blink trigger counts as "crazy" :-)

How about adding CONFIG_LED_TRIGGERS_HR_TIMER_SUPPORT, guarding the
hr timer support in triggers (timer trigger could also benefit from it)
with it, and adding "(EXPERIMENTAL)" tag to the config description?

-- 
Best regards,
Jacek Anaszewski

Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Pavel Machek]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1477 bytes --]

On Mon 2017-09-18 22:43:40, Jacek Anaszewski wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On 09/17/2017 07:50 PM, Pavel Machek wrote:
> > Hi!
> > 
> >>>> Do you think such an improvement could be harmful in some way,
> >>>> even if it was made optional?
> >>>
> >>> Of course, we can make LED timing accurate down to microseconds. It will
> >>> mean increased overhead -- for "improvement" human can not perceive.
> >>>
> >>> If someone has problems with LED delays not being accurate enough... we
> >>> may want to fix it. But that is not the case here, is it?
> >>
> >> AFAIR David was mentioning that the hr_timer support is perceivable
> > 
> > He said that hr_timer support is perceivable _when he is driving
> > vibration motor_. Which he should not do in the first place.
> > 
> > Yes, if the difference is perceivable with LED in non-crazy
> > configuration (*), we can take the patch. Is it? Do we have someone
> > not from Google observing it?
> > 
> > (*) emulating PWM using blink trigger counts as "crazy" :-)
> 
> How about adding CONFIG_LED_TRIGGERS_HR_TIMER_SUPPORT, guarding the
> hr timer support in triggers (timer trigger could also benefit from it)
> with it, and adding "(EXPERIMENTAL)" tag to the config description?

Why would we want to add code in the LED subsystem that is useless for
LEDs?
								Pavel
-- 
(english) http://www.livejournal.com/~pavelmachek
(cesky, pictures) http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/picture/horses/blog.html

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Re: Vibrations in input vs. LED was Re: [PATCH v2 0/3] led: ledtrig-transient: add support for hrtimer

[Jacek Anaszewski]

Hi,

On 09/20/2017 01:15 PM, Pavel Machek wrote:
> On Mon 2017-09-18 22:43:40, Jacek Anaszewski wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> On 09/17/2017 07:50 PM, Pavel Machek wrote:
>>> Hi!
>>>
>>>>>> Do you think such an improvement could be harmful in some way,
>>>>>> even if it was made optional?
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course, we can make LED timing accurate down to microseconds. It will
>>>>> mean increased overhead -- for "improvement" human can not perceive.
>>>>>
>>>>> If someone has problems with LED delays not being accurate enough... we
>>>>> may want to fix it. But that is not the case here, is it?
>>>>
>>>> AFAIR David was mentioning that the hr_timer support is perceivable
>>>
>>> He said that hr_timer support is perceivable _when he is driving
>>> vibration motor_. Which he should not do in the first place.
>>>
>>> Yes, if the difference is perceivable with LED in non-crazy
>>> configuration (*), we can take the patch. Is it? Do we have someone
>>> not from Google observing it?
>>>
>>> (*) emulating PWM using blink trigger counts as "crazy" :-)
>>
>> How about adding CONFIG_LED_TRIGGERS_HR_TIMER_SUPPORT, guarding the
>> hr timer support in triggers (timer trigger could also benefit from it)
>> with it, and adding "(EXPERIMENTAL)" tag to the config description?
> 
> Why would we want to add code in the LED subsystem that is useless for
> LEDs?

It could be used for software pwm trigger, there has been at least one
an attempt to add such [0].

[0] https://lkml.org/lkml/2015/4/27/493
-- 
Best regards,
Jacek Anaszewski