From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: From: Daniel Mitzlaff Date: Fri, 05 Jan 2001 23:10:20 GMT Message-ID: <20010105.23102087@dmitzlaff2.botschendv.de> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: [linux-lvm] Release practice - was: Another strange setup by a newbie, but strange oops resulted while trying vgextend/vgmerge! Sender: linux-lvm-admin@sistina.com Errors-To: linux-lvm-admin@sistina.com Reply-To: linux-lvm@sistina.com List-Help: List-Post: List-Subscribe: , List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Id: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" To: linux-lvm@sistina.com Hello AJ Lewis... I wrote >> BUT, all my drives are filled up with data, there's NO BACKUP(!), and= no >> way to take more than a single drive free for reformatting. >From AJ comes: >If this is a production system, you should really should have some=20 backup. Hey, i'm a little bit nerd/geek, really far away from things declared to= =20 be "normal", *but* *not* *stupid* ;) >There are plenty of things that can go wrong without even putting layer= s=20 like >LVM into the picture. I agree that upgrading LVM should not mess up=20= you're >data, but if you have no backup, you are taking a lot of risks no >matter what. I do understand that for home systems backup is a difficul= t=20 issue, >but bad things do happen even with the most finely tuned systems. Yes, i just got a - i really can't see from where it comes - crash, lost= =20 my complete /home/hackbyte, /home/ftp and /home/lost+found, all other=20= files still remaining to be there, 'debugfs lsdel' reports a regular=20= delete on all these files (34000 files in 7gig!). This harddrive is just= =20 taked into my bed, waiting for some day when i can get my files back,=20= INCLUDING the filenames, 99% of the files are still there and recoverabl= e=20 ;). Do you now believe me if i say i know what i do?;) >CD burners are a cheap and effective way to backup user data, and hard = drives are cheap >enough now that you could buy a cheap external drive with large capacit= y=20 todo >backups to. That said, it is very unlikely that you will loose data to = LVM. >ven the issues that have come up on the list don't cause data=20 corruption. ;) - i just have to smile a little bit. Please tell me how i can backup = my data on CD if i had a filesystem, splitted in 5 partitions, 90% of th= e=20 space filled with data? If you know a way to backup all these data like = a=20 streamer does, on CD, please tell me *soon*! Even if i try tar -m, i=20= can't get all the data. And i don't see a reason how i should implement = another structure, only to backup all the files. (Hhhm, only installing = lvm eventually, ok sorry, just joking;) Hhhmm, about data loss or data corruption, while testing lvm0.9 on=20 vanilla 2.2.18, i got more than once errors unmounting /, once of these = followed by a lost vg. I can't reproduce this, but i've seen another use= r=20 with a lost vg on the ml. Ok i'm sure that's a worst case condition. But= =20 if it can happen while i test it, so it can happen if i run it! About th= e=20 vg lost, just i think, at the time vgchange -a n updates the lvmtab,=20= there's no sync between rewriting lvmtab and shutting down the system,=20= because / is still in use and can't unmounted at a point where no shell = is left on the system. (please take this issue for your changes in the=20= next time! vcfgrecover even doesn't worked - what the hell ;)) .. as i=20= said, i can't reproduce this ;( ) Next issue, on buying a cheap drive for backups. Hhhhmm, i just got a ne= w=20 45Gig drive to expand my space. That's the reason why i think about usin= g=20 lvm/raid or other things, don't wanting to split again my nirvana for=20= another partition;) (ehm, yes i call my network and especially my fs my = private nirvana so i hoped to got a vg called nirvana;) If i had enought money to buy a new drive for mirroring, so i can go and= =20 let someone repair my dat-drive, nor?;) Not that i think DAT is really easy to recover from, but it's the=20 cheapest backup-solution i get (from old machines even;). >Which patches are you talking about here? Oh, i can tell you which patches i mean, look at the ML, a mail from=20= Heinz -> http://lists.sistina.com/pipermail/linux-lvm/2000-November/003698.html [linux-lvm] Re: Some brokenness in LVM 0.9 (on 2.2.18pre23) [long mail w= /=20 oopses and patch]=20 .......... >First of all, if you are using the stock redhat packages, and they don'= t=20 work >with the new LVM stuff, please complain to RedHat. They are the ones=20= that >should deal with that. That's NOT a redhat problem, lvm seems to work, only a few issues=20 don't..... ;) >Secondly, what are you talking about? --> "version that does not work" = <-- >What is this? Are you using the RPMs off the sistina site? Did you=20 compile >the packages yourself? If you used the sistina packages, make sure the = lib>lvm* >files are removed from /lib. My initial packages installed into /usr/=20= instead Eh? ... no comment............. see below >of root. I will get new packages out shortly that correct this problem.= =20 I >was hoping the transition issue would be resolved before I did this, bu= t=20 it >looks like I need to get new packages out first and then deal with that= . >You can also look at >http://distro.conectiva.com.br/experimental/lvm/= >for a version of the LVM packages that supports both the old (0.8.x) an= d=20 the >new (0.9.x) interfaces. Hey, cool. Very cool. Just imagine, i give you a light about which=20 kernels i use, i just described the difference between a tarball and a=20= rpm-paket, what the heck did you think what i do eh? ;) I explain.. First, it comes to me that i found myself in the happily position to buy= =20 a new drive. Thinking about reorganizing my files. I see, it wasn't good= =20 to split up again my files, so i decided to take some knowledge about=20= optimizing this point. Just opened my favorite web-browser, going to=20= www.linuxdoc.org, taking some howto's and beginning to read them. All=20= these howto's tell me that raid wil not fit into my setup, because i=20= can't reformat all my drives in one strike, so i see clearly that LVM is= =20 the choice. Ok, then, i just looked a little bit around to understand what LVM want'= s=20 to do with my data and drives, and it seems to be ok for me. I just=20 wanted a linear append on all drives, if i can get striping, hey cool,=20= but not really important. Only one thing is important - i have to resize= =20 the entire fs after freeing another drive to take it into the VG and the= =20 into the LV. So i go to kernel.org, downloaded an actual linux, go to sistina.com,=20= downloading an lvm - going to home, sit on my network - reading again=20= install and readme files! - and began to work. I've used a vanilla LVM0.9 from ftp.sistina.com, together with a vanilla= =20 2.2.17/18 tarball from ftp.kernel.org. Compiled all tools myself. Used=20= vanilla "make install" to bring it right now into my system. I even it = is a vanilla RH6.2 installation. What do you think can be wrong on this?= =20 And, if there are something, don't you mean that this has to be explaine= d=20 in the README or INSTALL file? For what reason are these files written b= y=20 -who want to know this now- eh? Oh, i forgot to tell that i asked SOME=20= people on ircnet about my problems with lvm, most of the users tell me t= o=20 DON'T even use it. - At this time i know why, and that it probably takes= =20 only to LVM0.9 - ***i hope***. >Define stable. I don't know of any software package that is 100% stable= . >There are always issues to track down. Point releases, such as LVM 0.9 = are >especially prone to that. You should know that. If you are concerned=20= about >it, don't upgrade immediately. Monitor the linux-lvm and lvm-devel=20 mailing >lists and see what problems people have. That's why we archive the=20 mailing >lists. (smile), ok another piece of background. I'm not really a good=20 programmer, but for a long time i maintained a bbs here in germany,=20 writing and releasing my own tools to give my (and other sysop's) users = a=20 lot of experience which no other bbs has. Do you think i can see=20 differences between stable and unstable software? Not? Ok i explain. If = i=20 can leave all my data right on the lvm, the lv still filling up - just=20= for example with an audio-stream from my dsl line, and go to bed, w/o=20= thinking any jota about how i can guard my data - knowing that all is ok= =20 in the morning (even if my fs with its 100Gig is filled up to 95% in the= =20 morning, from - in example - 70% in the evening before) - THAT is stable= !=20 At this point, i can't build a LVM - because resize don't work.....(And = i=20 don't want to imagine what can happen if i - for some cool reasons -=20= implemented an automatically resizing over spare disks if the system=20= grows to much w/o my presence... ok i just can't do it so because all=20= drives are already filled - but this can be a worst case condition where= =20 lvm has to run w/o any problem!) >Good, I'm glad you are reading the ML. We are working on the issues.=20= Heinz >has been out of contact for a few weeks due to a move and other issues,= =20 which >is delaying feedback. Sorry about that. :( Hey i said - i know what i do. And i really know how busy a programmer=20= can be WITHOUT answering to questions how to use some - still documented= =20 - features or setups. Feedback is not really important, if all is=20 described or self-describing *AND* working... >I understand your frustration, but know that we are working on this. Ooh, i really hope and can exclude all possibility of doubt - since 2.4.= 0=20 is released;) - that someone urgently hacks around to fix these problems= ,=20 oups, forgot that i read, the fixes are still there, but not released...= =20 (again -> no comment about this!) >As I said earlier, most point releases have issues that need to be=20 worked out, >and LVM 0.9 is no exception. If you want a "stable" release, you >should probably use LVM 0.8.1 for now. LVM 0.9.1 should be out soon,=20= which >should have all the *known* bugs fixed. Hhhhmmm... hey guy, i think, it's not cool to be forced to test the=20 software you just write. I think there's NO REASON TO DON'T TEST IT YOURSELF! So there is - in my eyes - NO WAY to take out a release that - as you ca= n=20 see - in vanilla don't run WITHOUT ANY COMMENT ABOUT THIS. Hey ok, LVM=20= still works, but not in all pieces! At this time, i don't know any frustration about your software, it's not= =20 fine that i have to wait - but that's life. The only thing is, i liked to know it BEFORE I TAKE ANY EXPERIMENTS with= =20 this software! And, even to say that LVM is for free, is no ticket to do it this way! Just, think about the time i spend installing and testing a software=20= which documentation never said anything about "absolutely beta for this = release" or "possible bugs making it unusable in some cases". As i said,= =20 im not really a programmer, but i have to sit at the office for a big=20= part of the day, just going home, late in the evening, working on my=20= private network. Didn't you believe that there are other things to do fo= r=20 me, except to learn that LVM0.9 has bugs which makes it unusable for me = and (i'm sure) a lot of other private users? All over these issues, i think it's a shame that it happened as it did. = Ok, there are several reasons how can things go that way wrong. BUT we=20= all, especially people who works on software, had to do all what is=20 possible to prevent us from such ..............(again, i don't say what = i=20 think - you know it already) Cool ideas are very nice, and if it takes place on some mind - to be=20= worked out in a usable state, then we all only got a benefit if the=20 persons who are working on this idea right know what they do........ I=20= just imagine what happens to the earlier linux kernels, if linus itself = takes this way to release new kernels. So, i go now into my weekend, still fiddling around with my partitions -= =20 giving you and all persons who work on LVM a lot of hints ;). -->**NEVER** and not only i say, **NEVER** take out any untested release= =20 w/o issuing it in the manual. -->**EVERY TIME** if you get patches, give it to the people who need it = -=20 and give a documentation where to find (again, cvs is not a thing who=20= everyone can deal with)! -->And in the future, do all what you can do that NO EVETUALLY KNOWN BUG= S=20 go to the kernel! - this is the most important thing for all=20 OpenSource/GPL supporters!!! -->Just, if you can, please urge as many betatesters as you can reach to= =20 test your release BEFORE it goes out to the world. And, please try to make me happy with your next release, and with the=20= following releases. I can only say that i - at this point - don't give=20= any commets about lvm if i'm asked about this - except that it is smart = to wait for the next release. In the other way, i see it to come, that=20= every user or customer which ask's me about handling a big fs will hear = from me that lvm can't be a choice...... (hey, that is not a thing who=20= bothers you at this time, but image is image - and the image of LVM is=20= not really good in the IRCNet) Cya, and don't be angry about my mail, just take it, think a lot about=20= it, and take some changes in the future ;) (again, this goes to all lvm maintainers...) Greeting - hackbyte aka hackbyte@gmx.de / hackbyte@hackbyte.de - IRCNet = #linux.de, +linux.de P.s.: Hhhmm sometimes, i'm wondering about my english, it seems to be=20= readable, but if you think i really learned it @school - you're wrong;)= Und nochmal ein paar gr=FCsse an unsere deutschen mitleser, ich bin echt= =20 ver=E4gert, aber so kanns ja nu wirklich nicht gehen ... ;)