From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from outpost1.zedat.fu-berlin.de (outpost1.zedat.fu-berlin.de [130.133.4.66]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id DBD021EE018 for ; Wed, 13 Nov 2024 12:58:44 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=130.133.4.66 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1731502727; cv=none; b=InJCYsgTEAYNQRWm4b+ujqkOwUk2iJLY4fJD0TfGMHO8Rtn2k/IHEmVQAgCvNoj3xhBXQbu3E4wx7xIYTHGGGNToQT5PxXkEWJFJhrzVGUT2QjSjQX7aT6jTLnxOjZbklCqNmS8WAIx4t765oO5CFDR2i75pOp8V1XZtVEN5zqg= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1731502727; c=relaxed/simple; bh=6Ml6S8wAVERJwT3So5qragXnn2M5aQqO3OHqL52y/bc=; h=Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=ORRw45u5amv5sYqw0dcCxQf5umKrajAFz8TkLiJh8ZcA3CIX7DxFBL4ahiiWxD292b/bTKVcf09WTgkOHAt0Z+s3qtaHw7JY39+K0hOTvQu/+nZR2OjvgZFEMJZ8HVBQtYHpPpoADKXxmOy6TznHp2v/K7K7m/m0K6degdtXgtM= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=physik.fu-berlin.de; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=zedat.fu-berlin.de; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fu-berlin.de header.i=@fu-berlin.de header.b=fyrfVjRp; arc=none smtp.client-ip=130.133.4.66 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=physik.fu-berlin.de Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=zedat.fu-berlin.de Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=fu-berlin.de header.i=@fu-berlin.de header.b="fyrfVjRp" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; q=dns/txt; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=fu-berlin.de; s=fub01; h=MIME-Version:Content-Transfer-Encoding: Content-Type:References:In-Reply-To:Date:Cc:To:From:Subject:Message-ID:Sender :Reply-To:Content-ID:Content-Description:Resent-Date:Resent-From: Resent-Sender:Resent-To:Resent-Cc:Resent-Message-ID:List-Id:List-Help: List-Unsubscribe:List-Subscribe:List-Post:List-Owner:List-Archive; bh=kAGtRW0vNShzCNavLLIZghZHDGYJac68jN1HXEuioNc=; t=1731502724; x=1732107524; b=fyrfVjRpfNq5yV5KgCgzcX6LMtkyZ3Ku5QdJxdSFBrIcF0iGMsIipyiK68KbvDxP3hxwTAq/tq0 aGkjcsSsRrApkpYNdX+RFTTeG7dt9l3ei5vt0GEopl2ooyD6m8b+PM6yPjpYrM21cF855N2lVJ1+E X8Yz5nJv3zlGFWnwxSff90h0qESKRQGNatgcv8etx8amtl5XHyfkGG72nYmmM2/4e6VSUGbegxGhg pUnQWOCM1in2grBgq2VC+2CJXy8BAzisypyQoppp6jWSoXYehRle/NSQhE7jAc8Frpu2eAdNYDl2N 9vp1Lsysw/Dn2mh27Co/ygacfFWVrbcAGxIQ==; Received: from inpost2.zedat.fu-berlin.de ([130.133.4.69]) by outpost.zedat.fu-berlin.de (Exim 4.98) with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (envelope-from ) id 1tBCxG-00000003arT-44tk; Wed, 13 Nov 2024 13:58:42 +0100 Received: from p57bd904e.dip0.t-ipconnect.de ([87.189.144.78] helo=[192.168.178.61]) by inpost2.zedat.fu-berlin.de (Exim 4.98) with esmtpsa (TLS1.3) tls TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 (envelope-from ) id 1tBCxG-00000000Chz-30ks; Wed, 13 Nov 2024 13:58:42 +0100 Message-ID: <50be1cf2bf065fbfd20d5b8c27cad4b9be9469fc.camel@physik.fu-berlin.de> Subject: Re: Plan needed for switching m68k to 32-bit alignment From: John Paul Adrian Glaubitz To: Finn Thain , Michael Schmitz Cc: Arnd Bergmann , linux-m68k , debian-68k , James Le Cuirot , Sam James , Geert Uytterhoeven , Andreas Schwab , Thorsten Glaser Date: Wed, 13 Nov 2024 13:58:42 +0100 In-Reply-To: References: <3a5e171bf42e5273eb8235cba04e8328b19c2ca4.camel@physik.fu-berlin.de> <383faec7-8987-4680-920d-8f802e1bea34@app.fastmail.com> <832d65f2-1796-4ac1-b49b-380bf64700f4@gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.54.1 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-m68k@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Original-Sender: glaubitz@physik.fu-berlin.de X-ZEDAT-Hint: PO On Tue, 2024-10-29 at 14:39 +1100, Finn Thain wrote: > On Tue, 29 Oct 2024, Michael Schmitz wrote: >=20 > > On 25/10/24 22:55, Arnd Bergmann wrote: > >=20 > > > I also expect that a lot of users (of m68k kernels) are never going t= o=20 > > > get the benefits as they are already stuck on older userspace because= =20 > > > of added bloat in new software releases. I assume you have better=20 > > > understanding than me of what m68k hardware is commonly used these= =20 > > > days, and how constrained that is in practice. > >=20 > > I second that - currently bisecting to find out what makes my extremely= =20 > > RAM constrained m68k system fail to boot or run anything past 6.9-rc4= =20 > > (sysvinit, not systemd). > >=20 >=20 > As cloud instances multiply, that small quantity of lost RAM gets=20 > multiplied. So it appears that small systems aren't so strange, even afte= r=20 > they become unprofitable... Yes, who doesn't know the cloud instances with 64 MB RAM. Those are today's= standard. > > Much as I appreciate Adrian's efforts to keep up with user space=20 > > development, I won't be in a position to help with an ABI change. > >=20 >=20 > Bloated m68k packages will continue to work -- given emulators that run= =20 > faster with every hardware upgrade. But how would such a distro add value= ? You can easily upgrade Amigas to 256 MB or more these days. The aftermarket provides a lot of affordable upgrades these days. > I don't mind if Gentoo ships a separate profile for (downstream) ABI=20 > experimentation, leaving the default m68k profile on the standard ABI. The Gentoo developers will be glad to hear that you don't mind. Do you thin= k they need a written permission from you? > And if Debian wants to switch ABI entirely, I won't object further, I've= =20 > said enough about the associated risks. >=20 > So I'll just reiterate that I'd rather see more collaboration instead - >=20 > 1) among all small systems ports, to try to alleviate Debian's package= =20 > dependency problem That dependency chain comes from upstream, not from Debian. > 2) among all developers working on non-commercial architectures, to=20 > improve the GCC Rust frontend GCC Rust uses parts of the upstream Rust code, so you can expect the same problems there as well. > 3) among all 680x0 developers interested in the NetBSD ABI The alignment issue affects NetBSD as well. > 4) among all users of EOL'd hardware, so that value may continue to be= =20 > extracted from it (thanks to the efforts of Debian and Gentoo devs,= =20 > among others). Software will run faster with 32-bit alignment, not slower. Adrian --=20 .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz : :' : Debian Developer `. `' Physicist `- GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913