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Wed, 18 Jun 2025 18:16:45 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2025 08:17:39 +1000 (AEST) From: Finn Thain To: John Paul Adrian Glaubitz cc: port-m68k , debian-68k , linux-m68k Subject: Re: Question on BIGGEST_ALIGNMENT in GCC on NetBSD/m68k In-Reply-To: <4c0581c5baccf73e96e53d755e70b57b23ba1da4.camel@physik.fu-berlin.de> Message-ID: <5f196647-fb65-e2db-c985-249c11780149@linux-m68k.org> References: <80f5c684-638b-4486-9026-1f8689a7f147@yoseli.org> <95e56d983ace4976143c7e1180ffe5606c0ee3fe.camel@physik.fu-berlin.de> <758f14d8-6d03-2aab-468b-170b0bbb7d2a@linux-m68k.org> <8e0186f61cc9bbed2373ae215e80ab7e70042793.camel@physik.fu-berlin.de> <6e6f8e27ff90ce3f8535fc4f5c57049c59a9b227.camel@physik.fu-berlin.de> <49a62eda6aea856df248aa223365b5230020d829.camel@physik.fu-berlin.de> <569d73fb-8ad5-46f0-bf4c-568919f319e7@helsinkinet.fi> <022ab204-7be9-4f6a-a92f-2601fae1f146@vivier.eu> <5d8619dfe4134319b558684209f2b89c5c1447cf.camel@physik.fu-berlin.de> <889f54af-2317-ee51-cea5-47d813683944@linux-m68k.org> <5de0835e46f8c2479668fe5fe98f8e0d230cbfce.camel@physik.fu-berlin.de> <0b09dcea10c9bab4a50b2599ef8ac59b89f09b3e.camel@physik.fu-berlin.de> <8eb87c55-95c2-0c73-4941-6e8732266220@linux-m68k.org> <4c0581c5baccf73e96e53d755e70b57b23ba1da4.camel@physik.fu-berlin.de> Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-m68k@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii On Wed, 18 Jun 2025, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote: > On Wed, 2025-06-18 at 13:50 +1000, Finn Thain wrote: > > > How is messing with a hobbyist project "harmful" in any way? That makes > > > no sense. > > > > > > > If your port was a pure hobbyist project, you would never have brought > > your complaint to the upstream mailing lists, where developers have to > > work with ALL interested parties and make the necessary compromises. > > Can you list ALL interested parties, please? > > I only know about Gentoo and Debian and both want to make the switch. > That's what code review is for. I'd be happy to show you how your patches will have an adverse affect on others, once you post them all. (And I mean ALL patches -- including the ones you expect Debian to carry.) > > But, as usual, you're trying to have it both ways. You pretend that > > wiping wiping your slate clean and starting over doesn't impact anyone > > else. But then you complain when the upstream projects don't care to > > invest effort into your scheme. > > Again, can you list the other downstream projects that would be affected > and that oppose this change? Please come with actual evidence instead of > just remaining vague. > Again, please post patches instead of "remaining vague". Also, FYI, the development process doesn't demand lists. Just one regression would be sufficient. > > The way to find a compromise is to build the thing you need, and then, > > if any of it is found to be useful upstream, send patches! That's how > > this process has always worked, has it not? > > I have never denied that. The problem here is that I started a > discussion to resolve a longstanding problem with the m68k port and you > immediately started shooting at it instead of trying to work something > out together. > Cool story. But the record shows that you went on the offensive, threatening to break the ABI, and I merely responded. > > Moreover, to the extent that those patches get merged, we will have > > the beginnings of a second ABI with a second tuple. To the extend that > > those patches get rejected, you will have a fork on your hands. > > I won't have a problem with maintaining the fork. As I have repeatedly > said, the Gentoo people are working on the same change, so it's more > like the upstream developers that would exclude themselves. > And yet, two days prior, you wrote, "I'm not forking any packages". The emptiness of that commitment is abundantly clear now. > > So, some upstream developers will have to support both ABIs (for them, > > you've just created work). Other developers will have to choose > > between either one (for them, you've just make collaboration more > > difficult). > > You're again being vague. You talk about Linux/m68k as if there were > dozens of downstream distributions and projects when there is in fact > just Debian and Gentoo which both, as I have said countless times now, > want to make the switch. > > So, I have no idea what these other mystical downstream projects should > be. > Where did I mention "projects"? You need to read the messages you reply to. > > This is a lose/lose proposition. And if you think I'm wrong about > > that, please just send patches and demonstrate why. > > I have received multiple messages now, off- and on-list, from users that > are supporting my efforts as they see the value in making software more > useful to users instead of just insisting on adhering to a broken ABI > that no one really cares about anymore in the year 2025. > Again, 1990's silicon doesn't care for your 2025 package archive.