From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from us-smtp-delivery-124.mimecast.com (us-smtp-delivery-124.mimecast.com [170.10.129.124]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6D39A35B632 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2026 22:42:06 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=170.10.129.124 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1785537727; cv=none; b=gzLgikmpXcKlqRC6j7zHKkST6f4X9YbTmA4vWzP17No5XWS0rshvSsy0c+X9hrUEXMvUjkd9alBIn+oEw/SZJAXdyN3eS8/qxEdce0WuYSgKulA8g4OcQrCfUppqZ0msSYpRdJo0Y50qJtTI4EGu9uMgwymbsD6pIFs0N2es+xI= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1785537727; c=relaxed/simple; bh=PcAHNEFn8HmOgH1tNnQlsHxLS8m54D5po1NHBeIjr+c=; h=Date:From:To:cc:Subject:In-Reply-To:Message-ID:References: MIME-Version:Content-Type; b=UdB/D/V5ohypQKuDZ8mz5H1j8/bXENSk38WmF+BRZvQBjByMvilZ/+nrPxSysIQ2BlCGG7aJoIqgeoOaMevOBSKLhe7I/3T+zET4TijmfEEn/JJEKAwrc6CmVj667jhMDFIYrj615RCfjP7ilXNQrIupWTU7+IYpfKY34/3Iajw= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=quarantine dis=none) header.from=redhat.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=redhat.com; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=redhat.com header.i=@redhat.com header.b=iyc3i9wQ; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=redhat.com header.i=@redhat.com header.b=LSuu+RaQ; arc=none smtp.client-ip=170.10.129.124 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=quarantine dis=none) header.from=redhat.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=redhat.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=redhat.com header.i=@redhat.com header.b="iyc3i9wQ"; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=redhat.com header.i=@redhat.com header.b="LSuu+RaQ" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=redhat.com; s=mimecast20190719; t=1785537725; h=from:from:reply-to:subject:subject:date:date:message-id:message-id: to:to:cc:cc:mime-version:mime-version:content-type:content-type: in-reply-to:in-reply-to:references:references; bh=GFRgGZA8lNBGkf8E1h4gHa1H4unlTLYqjur/RFZ3lFc=; b=iyc3i9wQTsjGKJ1QBfdR2fC4MYLCDGgAWE/8f46P1sJXNuWwKwjY36DYiTXmuwoBwsYKz+ 7DroTbZO391eoM9rcmzA+cOssCiEwWm4sH7tO5Hxu8Sxun0FnQkiEbg2lsOY/1Jbgb0EOQ UiM/GwtDY6/zNXWkGDU/+k8bYVNvQv8= Received: from mail-wr1-f71.google.com (mail-wr1-f71.google.com [209.85.221.71]) by relay.mimecast.com with ESMTP with STARTTLS (version=TLSv1.3, cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id us-mta-433-Exza2pKQNKm2AkLeLDkx5Q-1; Fri, 31 Jul 2026 18:42:03 -0400 X-MC-Unique: Exza2pKQNKm2AkLeLDkx5Q-1 X-Mimecast-MFC-AGG-ID: Exza2pKQNKm2AkLeLDkx5Q_1785537722 Received: by mail-wr1-f71.google.com with SMTP id ffacd0b85a97d-47f7039fa59so1505131f8f.1 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2026 15:42:03 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=redhat.com; s=google; t=1785537722; x=1786142522; darn=vger.kernel.org; h=content-type:mime-version:references:message-id:in-reply-to:subject :cc:to:from:date:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to :content-type; bh=GFRgGZA8lNBGkf8E1h4gHa1H4unlTLYqjur/RFZ3lFc=; b=LSuu+RaQNCCKemMOv5OsHEaQxmNYY/On+ABpDDrACALr6nFQHukpO2y3uyZcwWfXs9 4aHlEHJXgCUQ1qf5FrAU8QD+8tCfr7+zpcaXQ0GsT5wHZPK6PtPBgTJwF3JTmHjfxL+C 9ff6v2bQjnBpvrNf7cAy5j+Hi2q2/kjQD4y0dsdT+EFBcGxqI97Hk9CUqMspNFks4v4x /iiCyiVMea/1eEEiuGD6KmJs/WejNAOhR3Yh5nHLKyCoO1rrpmgBdtULoYU4Dovpp+jm OROV1eL7FNXWUrHmj4rXBk5BQWkt0rUQiRSFMYOEN/fciKWKIqWH+VisLBUwJrj3pYkB MEbg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20251104; t=1785537722; x=1786142522; h=content-type:mime-version:references:message-id:in-reply-to:subject :cc:to:from:date:x-gm-gg:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date :message-id:reply-to:content-type; bh=GFRgGZA8lNBGkf8E1h4gHa1H4unlTLYqjur/RFZ3lFc=; b=N5eIyb68oP1AnDwP0zrbBvi/YrNSTrILYjsxA+EbtVKS99PF/5mwLvpDT2irL/UAWq neux6Clud+1PCtzvHqJ2GIwlbe8rC8LG+Me7uyD8GRU3JaI8QnUBNoZpRJdOIL54lXR9 GtBmxHPam7imTTHXHHi/zTV+5aL5kQIBxcLZWvc2nB4oNrQsDMM8NsXKzjjptALKAOOo UgVxQm8GNz1kNfK4Kz7VcCcBaV79+cj939yjAUbkXD0ygX/T4Hw1YJROBG6qCQT+QFRN 5rxbHRst6SVkIcG1vj4IMV3dv0I5SqMUzyl696JgtuWLujjNGMAc+hQdtbxS+vJVDugR F3GQ== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AHgh+RobOgPvQoDf0cN4MmZm0CCQy8YOAHZEVy6M1H8FKkrZYeN3fUlrvsrIM57JmEGcwbjmIEyKUTFC4vA=@vger.kernel.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxfxLczfKadQThHvItwX5X5VDk2+Tr8pT5SG2y+77CAAzePqoul j2VwIuRoD650UZBgQ1gDEPN5uAE3KhSC4HRRJkqiivbGiQ/XPlPw1Ag/Y+/sdS30b8ZVdSaEaLZ GqgMXG5nZHSlTtaGhKSXYLqYjGyRXPEAO90EIn62tBr7IYmo6Z92cwnQTSvz/Ig== X-Gm-Gg: AR+sD126FmZC1bHswN12CBN2vcJjJNaveNK6wBtJnqswXn4KSDJ9PxFzRr95Ktpu0y6 ofCcDMnkdbm1NMCd3TbHJDPRkJXfTiewq/thDHrCuDsQAxmN2jzV9nDc5vu/4akKZKU+htvlxJS EiEjd4KOdE2sACIjUpVtv2GsZys8+jmLPhOAQrVUiHR4zJmdVrwDuaYrnzo7h+NHpxgH9ecn3gL lTcv6XhKyEvSBuapUum63ExBtLEk1HsOq/YgdgMwFxu39/+5pslM6J1GZkPxRBp5wVyNWw6GRfF bmWPrApuoZKvmlcfs+J8enUFIWA7O6evkOZKFW9AYBdvXpbMyq6+GnaDErjJDzYkNql+Po+6kMr 27OB9SkmHMw8K7m57mFvVy7FslWCqWrQ= X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:c1c8:10b0:493:b243:8ffc with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-4980c68e3e1mr163935e9.35.1785537722479; Fri, 31 Jul 2026 15:42:02 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:600c:c1c8:10b0:493:b243:8ffc with SMTP id 5b1f17b1804b1-4980c68e3e1mr163765e9.35.1785537722196; Fri, 31 Jul 2026 15:42:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: from digraph.polyomino.org.uk (digraph.polyomino.org.uk. [2001:8b0:bf73:93f7::51bb:e332]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id ffacd0b85a97d-47fd458bb4esm10709794f8f.30.2026.07.31.15.42.01 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 31 Jul 2026 15:42:01 -0700 (PDT) Received: from jsm28 (helo=localhost) by digraph.polyomino.org.uk with local-esmtp (Exim 4.98.2) (envelope-from ) id 1wpvvU-00000003IYM-3aCH; Fri, 31 Jul 2026 22:42:00 +0000 Date: Fri, 31 Jul 2026 22:42:00 +0000 (UTC) From: Joseph Myers To: Alejandro Colomar cc: "G. Branden Robinson" , linux-man@vger.kernel.org, Keith Bostic , Mark Harris , Nevin Liber , JeanHeyd Meneide , Christopher Bazley , "Serge E. Hallyn" , Iker Pedrosa , "Evgeny Grin (Karlson2k)" , Kees Cook , bug-gnulib@gnu.org, libc-alpha@sourceware.org Subject: Re: on the irresponsibility of pursuing C language reform (was: [PATCH 1/2] man/man3/{mem,strn}*(): SYNOPSIS, STANDARDS: Document these as provided by ) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: <0407bda3-c03a-93cb-9400-5fb8256a30f2@redhat.com> References: <784288e704183a4297aeaa3d13af8edab18bc1ea.1785532392.git.alx@kernel.org> <20260731215122.4p4aepsbgeoibx74@illithid> <89c9b877-54a8-6a7c-016d-51e4be210ad6@redhat.com> Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-man@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 1 Aug 2026, Alejandro Colomar wrote: > > When an API has been in since 1989, that means documenting > > as the main location for that API - not some other location one > > person thinks is better and that most of the community has never heard of. > > FWIW, the APIs have been in since 1986 in 4.3BSD, and in > System V they go back further to 1983. In other words, they were in that header for 6 years, and it's been implicitly obsolescent by virtue of the standard choice for the 37 years since then. Standards involve accepting agreed compromises that might not have been your first choice, rather than endlessly relitigating past disputes without new evidence or changed circumstances. In this case, the choice of where to put the functions in C89 was an agreed compromise that implicitly obsoleted the previous location, and should have put an end to any arguments that was a bad location for those functions in the absence of clear new evidence. We have plenty of clear evidence for confusion about strn*; we don't about mem*. -- Joseph S. Myers josmyers@redhat.com