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Thu, 17 Jul 2025 05:13:56 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.241] ([198.48.244.52]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id af79cd13be357-7e334178dc8sm405422085a.8.2025.07.17.05.13.55 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 17 Jul 2025 05:13:55 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <1d5c8ce8-9ba0-4e3b-9866-95047741d5d2@redhat.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 2025 08:13:54 -0400 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-man@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: drop ia64 from man pages? To: Eugene Syromyatnikov Cc: enh , Alejandro Colomar , linux-man References: Content-Language: en-US From: Carlos O'Donell Autocrypt: addr=carlos@redhat.com; keydata= xsFNBFef5BoBEACvJ15QMMZh4stKHbz0rs78XsOdxuug37dumTx6ngrDCwZ61k7nHQ+uxLuo QvLSc6YJGBEfiNFbs1hvhRFNR7xJbzRYmin7kJZZ/06fH2cgTkQhN0mRBP8KsKKT+7SvvBL7 85ZfAhArWf5m5Tl0CktZ8yoG8g9dM4SgdvdSdzZUaWBVHc6TjdAb9YEQ1/jpyfHsQp+PWLuQ ZI8nZUm+I3IBDLkbbuJVQklKzpT1b8yxVSsHCyIPFRqDDUjPL5G4WnUVy529OzfrciBvHdxG sYYDV8FX7fv6V/S3eL6qmZbObivIbLD2NbeDqw6vNpr+aehEwgwNbMVuVfH1PVHJV8Qkgxg4 PqPgQC7GbIhxxYroGbLJCQ41j25M+oqCO/XW/FUu/9x0vY5w0RsZFhlmSP5lBDcaiy3SUgp3 MSTePGuxpPlLVMePxKvabSS7EErLKlrAEmDgnUYYdPqGCefA+5N9Rn2JPfP7SoQEp2pHhEyM 6Xg9x7TJ+JNuDowQCgwussmeDt2ZUeMl3s1f6/XePfTd3l8c8Yn5Fc8reRa28dFANU6oXiZf 7/h3iQXPg81BsLMJK3aA/nyajRrNxL8dHIx7BjKX0/gxpOozlUHZHl73KhAvrBRaqLrr2tIP LkKrf3d7wdz4llg4NAGIU4ERdTTne1QAwS6x2tNa9GO9tXGPawARAQABzSpDYXJsb3MgTydE b25lbGwgKFdvcmspIDxjYXJsb3NAcmVkaGF0LmNvbT7CwZUEEwEIAD8CGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUI AgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAFiEEcnNUKzmWLfeymZMUFnkrTqJTQPgFAmagDwgFCRDhXm4ACgkQ FnkrTqJTQPgLlw/+JD7l4tj8l8hAMUlszrlIT6IhKSODzjrGO+6d9Y6T9vyE2kk4Xbn+kdJf uBl+wj2+U15MsQe9Z4RwowIB3YHHXgj53M2OjqOAY/sRWXZVDfmVj03hqW8D7zFxjc0SZ9cI TI0MwrDWc+Fr3naXeo7HhgjUmULfPndxb8NHVV4Ds2DTkZoUMwB8l3dboD+nKi5GbfVBf3Q5 cBw0CPkxPl0hxD9sr5IMgWIKVLtvztMIXv2xWAavqk8pQjk0zCYd46GcA8d9pZuac24e9NbM ZzTxu6cP0sKhub1JFIadyBHtJnEV/8Auc8nXJ63QY3h0QVCJYV35gQeejEdMD94in2XTkxk0 A/xCp32bmSZv5flsmdAIv5LK4jTKLvzd6BSy/v7qlpgQ7sNaxQ/JRd+8YuBIiUVIp/kgGezD qtGZSpvPCFuG3LxsdvAu7JAzBY3sfBd2lSGOeHX/JK0nQ6s97j4HlSuXIabSOdsCI5UGSOq5 thbIqfK3ewUSUB0yGvWf7EyuZugtCZOaFGpvcT3ix9/sP1fTRlJl+bNjMcO8GwedDoy85oeg yLCEV9gejCr+NijLfPYtb1s8o0hYu13uBojFyBv+bkUI5hTQaVLacq7VglA/QLOy/3mtM2v5 4OEotiNXbKypHFKnoks/MFpP4xdwxGX5jU4MgFg80aPFGr0oZVXOwU0EV5/kGgEQAKvTJke+ QSjATmz11ALKle/SSEpUwL5QOpt3xomEATcYAamww0HADfGTKdUR+aWgOK3vqu6Sicr1zbuZ jHCs2GaIgRoqh1HKVgCmaJYjizvidHluqrox6qqc9PG0bWb0f5xGQw+X2z+bEinzv4qaep1G 1OuYgvG49OpHTgZMiJq9ncHCxkD2VEJKgMywGJ4Agdl+NWVn0T7w6J+/5QmBIE8hh4NzpYfr xzWCJ9iZ3skG4zBGB4YEacc3+oeEoybc10h6tqhQNrtIiSRJH+SUJvOiNH8oMXPLAjfFVy3d 4BOgyxJhE0UhmQIQHMJxCBw81fQD10d0dcru0rAIEldEpt2UXqOr0rOALDievMF/2BKQiOA7 PbMC3/dwuNHDlClQzdjil8O7UsIgf3IMFaIbQoUEvjlgf5cm9a94gWABcfI1xadAq9vcIB5v +9fM71xDgdELnZThTd8LByrG99ExVMcG2PZYXJllVDQDZqYA1PjD9e0yHq5whJi3BrZgwDaL 5vYZEb1EMyH+BQLO3Zw/Caj8W6mooGHgNveRQ1g9FYn3NUp7UvS22Zt/KW4pCpbgkQZefxup KO6QVNwwggV44cTQ37z5onGbNPD8+2k2mmC0OEtGBkj+VH39tRk+uLOcuXlGNSVk3xOyxni0 Nk9M0GvTvPKoah9gkvL/+AofN/31ABEBAAHCwXwEGAEIACYCGwwWIQRyc1QrOZYt97KZkxQW eStOolNA+AUCZqAPEAUJEOFedgAKCRAWeStOolNA+D38D/9WnZY9fUmPhZVwpDnhIXvlXgqX cspZJEBWNS5ArFn8CLcje7z9hzX3+86lqkEeohTmlgtTg4ctZzM+XKyWSiqHCRCR+FX5SKaa 1VveBtwvjTSVmtV1m0rNHEvUZ5x47A8NadWqYi6uOQ22FhEqUOiwJ7EHzk4w9W3gT1913XT1 vmkCn6FtQcrQvJT7pP+oA0YIVs8ADayJcqWHM+Ez7L2fpfAzBDhIS7dq2MYU8LQOQAsx1y7H 6njp5dN/OI/aN/RL6XeX1Kxl4Xe+hc+tq457fLAUnmaevUldvKThuj+5/Cd4DW25MxaqinfY m/U6pBQ4ZwQPGWA0f+GKiJcLosSRXxIuEdZAl82ht+KgT3zhV/BvQRmrD6wX3ywPkJap8h4K ibwz3r6NbHKdCX22ok58oE8NAWtmTRTKXDhh8oWOKdIYjX6jJzdb/F8rPNoEY3UiYbaNTxt5 TE9VD+yWilYO796HMXjXenCOlghy3HFmZbsQ4N+FlG6LQD7cnwm56kcrJk1IlnQXOSOd2BA2 qNbM1Ohry3B+1F4Oaee+ZKH2C5y7Kx0y3m1b5X7Wpx76H5BeUAp6dQi6nNYeqM9PglZIMvSe O4uRThl5mMDx8MXQz6M9qQ5anYwre+/TudTfCzcTpgXod1wEqi2ErJ5jNgh18DRlSQ3tbDvG O0FatDMfJw== Organization: Red Hat In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 7/17/25 6:30 AM, Eugene Syromyatnikov wrote: > On Wed, Jul 16, 2025 at 7:43 PM Carlos O'Donell wrote: >> >> On 7/16/25 12:30 PM, enh wrote: >>> i didn't look at the other pages, but quite a lot on the clone(2) page >>> is actually about what glibc does ... but glibc already removed all >>> this stuff. so it should probably not be more than what we have for, >>> say, m68k which is just "read your kernel/libc source for more"? >>> >>> a corollary to "museum hardware should run museum software" might be >>> "...and use museum documentation" :-) >> >> Agreed. >> >> There is a balance here between documentation that covers a reasonable >> number of use cases, documentation that is easy to maintain, and >> documentation that is easy to read (without superfluous information, >> either too new or too old). >> >> It has been about 1.5 years since IA64 started being dropped, and I >> don't see any reason to keep very specific documentation about it >> around except as smaller interesting historical notes. > > Depends on whether man pages limit themselves to reflecting only the > "current" version (whatever this is, as man-pages is not part of > either linux or glibc source tree), or strive to provide actual useful > reference for users of systems that may have different variants and > versions of the kernel and libc. If it is the latter, outright > removal (instead of keeping all the pertinent information in the > history section) is pretty short-sighted. (1) Co-evolution. The Linux man-pages project, and most projects, co-evolve with the ecosystem. At any point in time you can take the most pertinent release of a project and use that. VCS history is available to everyone. This is how downstream distributions have been evolving and serving users. (2) A loose matrix of "supported" (not "current") The project, as I see it, has been providing useful information for a loose matrix of supported kernels, supported C libraries (glibc, musl, bionic), and supported international standards e.g. ISO C, POSIX etc. along with other APIs from BSD etc. (3) What is a valid variant? Once something is deprecated my opinion is that we have a duty to our users to attempt to cleanup the material and make it easier to consume with less relevant information moved away from main sections or pages. At this point in time I'd say IA64 is deprecated in the current releases of glibc and linux and so moving the related information, or cleaning it up seems appropriate. How much of that to do I leave up to Alejandro as editor (or contributors to work out). What makes a valid variant though? There is no upstream supported glibc older than 2.32. There is no upstream supported Linux older than 5.4 (LTS). So between the two, there is still IA64 support present. Supported (all upstream projects support it) -> Deprecated (current project releases have removed support) -> End of life (no actively maintained project support it) I think we should cleanup and move content at the "deprecated" phase, which is where we find IA64 today, and when we get to EOL, we should be removing all the content related to it except for historical references that serve an educational or elucidating purpose. -- Cheers, Carlos.