From mboxrd@z Thu Jan  1 00:00:00 1970
From: Felix Janda <felix.janda-1KBjaw7Xf1+zQB+pC5nmwQ@public.gmane.org>
Subject: Re: POSIX.1-2013 man pages for review
Date: Fri, 20 Sep 2013 19:54:10 +0200
Message-ID: <20130920175410.GA1092@gauss>
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To: John Spencer <maillist-musl-Am5OCHYCrcUb1SvskN2V4Q@public.gmane.org>
Cc: mtk.manpages-Re5JQEeQqe8AvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org, "linux-man-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org" <linux-man-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org>, Andrew Josey <ajosey-7882/jkIBncuagvECLh61g@public.gmane.org>, Rich Felker <dalias-/miJ2pyFWUyWIDz0JBNUog@public.gmane.org>, Rob Landley <rob-VoJi6FS/r0vR7s880joybQ@public.gmane.org>, Matthew Dempsky <matthew-bfSpyvURsAhAfugRpC6u6w@public.gmane.org>
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John Spencer wrote:
> Hello Michael, Felix,
> 
> On 09/19/2013 01:00 PM, Michael Kerrisk (man-pages) wrote:
> >> i've run a test script[0] using my own manpage viewer[1]
> >> and attached the results. it seems that ~10% of the manpages use some
> >> special groff features. i'd rather see these removed/replaced with something
> >> nroff-compatible.
> >
> > I just want to check where you're coming from John. You're working on
> > musl, right? Does musl not use the work from the man-pages project? I
> > ask, because some of the pieces that your script doesn't like are also
> > used in the man-pages project. See below.
> 
> musl itself does not use the man-pages project currently, as the 
> majority of manpages are very glibc specific. so the posix manpages 
> project is _imo_ currently a much better documentation for the 
> interfaces provided by musl.

On the other hand the section 2 man pages from linux-manpages documenting
Linux specific behavior of system calls might be useful, no?

> i can't remember the exact outcome of the previous discussion on the 
> musl mailing list, ("Linux manpages (was Re: [musl] Request for 
> volunteers)"), but afaik it is unlikely that the man-pages project will 
> be updated as discussed in that thread before musl 1.0 is out.
> 
> however, my interest in having the POSIX manpages use portable nroff 
> syntax comes from my endeavor to build a non-bloated musl-based linux 
> system, which will, at least in the basic configuration, feature the 
> below nroff-only manpage viewer, since groff is incredibly bloated (over 
> 4 MB of compressed source code! - in comparison my man.c compiles to a 
> 60 KB statically linked binary) and written in C++ so it's definitely 
> contrary to my goals. (not to talk about that some of the groff features 
> like the tbl preprocessor are just horribly misguided and completely 
> unidiomatic, introducing a completely new language namespace)
> 
> as such i'd love to see the POSIX manpages project actually deliver 
> portable manpages, instead of assuming that the full-blown GNU userspace 
> stack is available.

Could you give a definition of this portable nroff syntax?

> >
> >> [0] https://github.com/rofl0r/hardcore-utils/blob/master/tests/mantest.sh
> >> [1] https://github.com/rofl0r/hardcore-utils/blob/master/man.c
> >
> > Looking at your log:
> >
> >> === status report  ===
> >> total manpages        : 1143
> >> buggy manpages        : 137
> >> total failures        : 406
> >> unique failures       : 12
> >>
> >> bug list:
> >>      122 **** Unknown formatter command: .ne
> >
> > Not sure about this one. From groff(7):
> >
> >         .ne       Need a one-line vertical space.
> >         .ne N     Need N vertical space (default scaling indicator v).
> >
> > I'm not sure about the circumstances where these are being applied. Felix?
> >
> >>      106 **** Unknown formatter command: .TS
> >>      106 **** Unknown formatter command: .TE
> >
> > These two are heavily used for tables in the man-pages project itself.
> > What's the problem/alternative?
> 
> the problem is A) that it requires groff's tbl preprocessor, which in 
> turn requires the full groff install, and B) that the tag cannot simply 
> be ignored becaused the content embedded into those tags follows a 
> completely random new syntax - example:
> http://www.podgrid.org/linux-bible/linux-bible-page607.html
> 
> the alternative is to apply the tbl preprocessor before shipping the 
> manpages and instead include the preprocessed output (cleaned up from 
> groffisms as well)

I'm not sure if your man can handle the output of tbl. Attached is the
output when run against one of the tables in pax. It looks rather
hopeless. Also the fictional script cleaning up the GNU tbl output is
likely going to be dependent on a specific tbl version.

For eqn it seems much more likely to me that one can produce output
which makes your man implementation happy. The equations are already
hacked to make them better suitable for nroff.

> as for the other groff specific formatter commands, i am refering to 
> Felix' response: all of them can either be left away or in case of tbl 
> and eqn the preprocessed source used instead.

.ce remained open. Is there an alternative or could you just implement
that?

Felix

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=2E3rvpt 1
=2Esp |\n[3bot]u
\*[3trans].nr 3brule 1
=2E3release
=2E3keep
=2E3rmk 3rt4
\*[3trans].nr 3crow 4
=2E3keep
=2Emk 3rs4
=2Emk 3bot
=2E3rvpt 0
=2Eta \n[3ce0]u \n[3ce2]u
=2Elf 12
\&\h'|\n[3cl0]u'\f[I]c_mode\f[\n[3fnt]]\h'|(\n[3w1]u-\n[3lnw1]u-\n[3rnw1]u/=
2u+\n[3lnw1]u+\n[3cl1]u-\n[3tbw4,1]u)'6\h'|\n[3cl2]u'Octal number
=2Enr 3bot \n[3bot]>?\n[.d]
=2Esp |\n[3rs4]u
=2E3rvpt 1
=2Esp |\n[3bot]u
\*[3trans].nr 3brule 1
=2E3release
=2E3keep
=2E3rmk 3rt5
\*[3trans].nr 3crow 5
=2E3keep
=2Emk 3rs5
=2Emk 3bot
=2E3rvpt 0
=2Eta \n[3ce0]u \n[3ce2]u
=2Elf 13
\&\h'|\n[3cl0]u'\f[I]c_uid\f[\n[3fnt]]\h'|(\n[3w1]u-\n[3lnw1]u-\n[3rnw1]u/2=
u+\n[3lnw1]u+\n[3cl1]u-\n[3tbw5,1]u)'6\h'|\n[3cl2]u'Octal number
=2Enr 3bot \n[3bot]>?\n[.d]
=2Esp |\n[3rs5]u
=2E3rvpt 1
=2Esp |\n[3bot]u
\*[3trans].nr 3brule 1
=2E3release
=2E3keep
=2E3rmk 3rt6
\*[3trans].nr 3crow 6
=2E3keep
=2Emk 3rs6
=2Emk 3bot
=2E3rvpt 0
=2Eta \n[3ce0]u \n[3ce2]u
=2Elf 14
\&\h'|\n[3cl0]u'\f[I]c_gid\f[\n[3fnt]]\h'|(\n[3w1]u-\n[3lnw1]u-\n[3rnw1]u/2=
u+\n[3lnw1]u+\n[3cl1]u-\n[3tbw6,1]u)'6\h'|\n[3cl2]u'Octal number
=2Enr 3bot \n[3bot]>?\n[.d]
=2Esp |\n[3rs6]u
=2E3rvpt 1
=2Esp |\n[3bot]u
\*[3trans].nr 3brule 1
=2E3release
=2E3keep
=2E3rmk 3rt7
\*[3trans].nr 3crow 7
=2E3keep
=2Emk 3rs7
=2Emk 3bot
=2E3rvpt 0
=2Eta \n[3ce0]u \n[3ce2]u
=2Elf 15
\&\h'|\n[3cl0]u'\f[I]c_nlink\f[\n[3fnt]]\h'|(\n[3w1]u-\n[3lnw1]u-\n[3rnw1]u=
/2u+\n[3lnw1]u+\n[3cl1]u-\n[3tbw7,1]u)'6\h'|\n[3cl2]u'Octal number
=2Enr 3bot \n[3bot]>?\n[.d]
=2Esp |\n[3rs7]u
=2E3rvpt 1
=2Esp |\n[3bot]u
\*[3trans].nr 3brule 1
=2E3release
=2E3keep
=2E3rmk 3rt8
\*[3trans].nr 3crow 8
=2E3keep
=2Emk 3rs8
=2Emk 3bot
=2E3rvpt 0
=2Eta \n[3ce0]u \n[3ce2]u
=2Elf 16
\&\h'|\n[3cl0]u'\f[I]c_rdev\f[\n[3fnt]]\h'|(\n[3w1]u-\n[3lnw1]u-\n[3rnw1]u/=
2u+\n[3lnw1]u+\n[3cl1]u-\n[3tbw8,1]u)'6\h'|\n[3cl2]u'Octal number
=2Enr 3bot \n[3bot]>?\n[.d]
=2Esp |\n[3rs8]u
=2E3rvpt 1
=2Esp |\n[3bot]u
\*[3trans].nr 3brule 1
=2E3release
=2E3keep
=2E3rmk 3rt9
\*[3trans].nr 3crow 9
=2E3keep
=2Emk 3rs9
=2Emk 3bot
=2E3rvpt 0
=2Eta \n[3ce0]u \n[3ce2]u
=2Elf 17
\&\h'|\n[3cl0]u'\f[I]c_mtime\f[\n[3fnt]]\h'|(\n[3w1]u-\n[3lnw1]u-\n[3rnw1]u=
/2u+\n[3lnw1]u+\n[3cl1]u-\n[3tbw9,1]u)'11\h'|\n[3cl2]u'Octal number
=2Enr 3bot \n[3bot]>?\n[.d]
=2Esp |\n[3rs9]u
=2E3rvpt 1
=2Esp |\n[3bot]u
\*[3trans].nr 3brule 1
=2E3release
=2E3keep
=2E3rmk 3rt10
\*[3trans].nr 3crow 10
=2E3keep
=2Emk 3rs10
=2Emk 3bot
=2E3rvpt 0
=2Eta \n[3ce0]u \n[3ce2]u
=2Elf 18
\&\h'|\n[3cl0]u'\f[I]c_namesize\f[\n[3fnt]]\h'|(\n[3w1]u-\n[3lnw1]u-\n[3rnw=
1]u/2u+\n[3lnw1]u+\n[3cl1]u-\n[3tbw10,1]u)'6\h'|\n[3cl2]u'Octal number
=2Enr 3bot \n[3bot]>?\n[.d]
=2Esp |\n[3rs10]u
=2E3rvpt 1
=2Esp |\n[3bot]u
\*[3trans].nr 3brule 1
=2E3release
=2E3keep
=2E3rmk 3rt11
\*[3trans].nr 3crow 11
=2E3keep
=2Emk 3rs11
=2Emk 3bot
=2E3rvpt 0
=2Eta \n[3ce0]u \n[3ce2]u
=2Elf 19
\&\h'|\n[3cl0]u'\f[I]c_filesize\f[\n[3fnt]]\h'|(\n[3w1]u-\n[3lnw1]u-\n[3rnw=
1]u/2u+\n[3lnw1]u+\n[3cl1]u-\n[3tbw11,1]u)'11\h'|\n[3cl2]u'Octal number
=2Enr 3bot \n[3bot]>?\n[.d]
=2Esp |\n[3rs11]u
=2E3rvpt 1
=2Esp |\n[3bot]u
\*[3trans].nr 3brule 1
=2Evs 2p>?\n[.V]u
=2Els 1
\v'.25m'\s[\n[3lps]]\h'|\n[3cd0]u'\D'l |\n[3cd3]u 0'\s0
=2Els
=2Evs
\*[3trans].nr 3brule 0
=2E3release
=2E3keep
=2E3rmk 3rt12
=2Ecp \n(3c
=2Elf 21
=2ET&
=2Ecp 0
\*[3trans].nr 3crow 12
=2E3keep
=2Emk 3rs12
=2Emk 3bot
=2E3rvpt 0
=2Eta \n[3ce0]u \n[3ce1]u \n[3ce2]u
=2Elf 24 pax.1p
\&\h'|\n[3cl0]u'=02=03\f[B]Filename Field Name\f[\n[3fnt]]=03=02\h'|\n[3cl1=
]u'=02=03\f[B]Length\f[\n[3fnt]]=03=02\h'|\n[3cl2]u'=02=03\f[B]Interpreted =
as\f[\n[3fnt]]=03=02
=2Enr 3bot \n[3bot]>?\n[.d]
=2Esp |\n[3rs12]u
=2E3rvpt 1
=2Esp |\n[3bot]u
\*[3trans].nr 3brule 1
=2Evs 2p>?\n[.V]u
=2Els 1
\v'.25m'\s[\n[3lps]]\h'|\n[3cd0]u'\D'l |\n[3cd3]u 0'\s0
=2Els
=2Evs
\*[3trans].nr 3brule 0
=2E3rvpt 0
\*[3trans].if 0<=3D\*[3quote]\n[3passed] .nr 3rt0 \*[3quote]\n[#T]
\*[3trans].sp -1
\*[3trans]\v'.25m'\h'\n[3cd2]u'\s[\n[3lps]]\D'l 0 |\*[3quote]\n[3rt0]u-1v'\=
s0
\*[3trans].if 0<=3D\*[3quote]\n[3passed] .nr 3rt0 \*[3quote]\n[#T]
\*[3trans].sp -1
\*[3trans]\v'.25m'\h'\n[3cd1]u'\s[\n[3lps]]\D'l 0 |\*[3quote]\n[3rt0]u-1v'\=
s0
=2E3rvpt 1
=2E3release
=2E3keep
=2E3rmk 3rt13
\*[3trans].nr 3crow 13
=2E3keep
=2Emk 3rs13
=2Emk 3bot
=2E3rvpt 0
=2Eta \n[3ce0]u \n[3ce1]u \n[3ce2]u
=2Elf 26
\&\h'|\n[3cl0]u'\f[I]c_name\f[\n[3fnt]]\h'|\n[3cl1]u'\f[I]c_namesize\f[\n[3=
fnt]]\h'|\n[3cl2]u'Pathname string
=2Enr 3bot \n[3bot]>?\n[.d]
=2Esp |\n[3rs13]u
=2E3rvpt 1
=2Esp |\n[3bot]u
\*[3trans].nr 3brule 1
=2Evs 2p>?\n[.V]u
=2Els 1
\v'.25m'\s[\n[3lps]]\h'|\n[3cd0]u'\D'l |\n[3cd3]u 0'\s0
=2Els
=2Evs
\*[3trans].nr 3brule 0
=2E3release
=2E3keep
=2E3rmk 3rt14
=2Ecp \n(3c
=2Elf 28
=2ET&
=2Ecp 0
\*[3trans].nr 3crow 14
=2E3keep
=2Emk 3rs14
=2Emk 3bot
=2E3rvpt 0
=2Eta \n[3ce0]u \n[3ce1]u \n[3ce2]u
=2Elf 31 pax.1p
\&\h'|\n[3cl0]u'=02=03\f[B]File Data Field Name\f[\n[3fnt]]=03=02\h'|\n[3cl=
1]u'=02=03\f[B]Length\f[\n[3fnt]]=03=02\h'|\n[3cl2]u'=02=03\f[B]Interpreted=
 as\f[\n[3fnt]]=03=02
=2Enr 3bot \n[3bot]>?\n[.d]
=2Esp |\n[3rs14]u
=2E3rvpt 1
=2Esp |\n[3bot]u
\*[3trans].nr 3brule 1
=2Evs 2p>?\n[.V]u
=2Els 1
\v'.25m'\s[\n[3lps]]\h'|\n[3cd0]u'\D'l |\n[3cd3]u 0'\s0
=2Els
=2Evs
\*[3trans].nr 3brule 0
=2E3rvpt 0
\*[3trans].if 14<=3D\*[3quote]\n[3passed] .nr 3rt14 \*[3quote]\n[#T]
\*[3trans].sp -1
\*[3trans]\v'.25m'\h'\n[3cd2]u'\s[\n[3lps]]\D'l 0 |\*[3quote]\n[3rt14]u-1v'=
\s0
\*[3trans].if 14<=3D\*[3quote]\n[3passed] .nr 3rt14 \*[3quote]\n[#T]
\*[3trans].sp -1
\*[3trans]\v'.25m'\h'\n[3cd1]u'\s[\n[3lps]]\D'l 0 |\*[3quote]\n[3rt14]u-1v'=
\s0
=2E3rvpt 1
=2E3release
=2E3keep
=2E3rmk 3rt15
\*[3trans].nr 3crow 15
=2E3keep
=2Emk 3rs15
=2Emk 3bot
=2E3rvpt 0
=2Eta \n[3ce0]u \n[3ce1]u \n[3ce2]u
=2Elf 33
\&\h'|\n[3cl0]u'\f[I]c_filedata\f[\n[3fnt]]\h'|\n[3cl1]u'\f[I]c_filesize\f[=
\n[3fnt]]\h'|\n[3cl2]u'Data
=2Enr 3bot \n[3bot]>?\n[.d]
=2Esp |\n[3rs15]u
=2E3rvpt 1
=2Esp |\n[3bot]u
\*[3trans].nr 3brule 1
=2E3release
=2Emk 3rt16
=2Enr 3brule 1
=2Enr T. 1
=2ET#
=2E3trelease
=2E3init
=2Efc
=2Ecp \n(3c
=2Elf 34
=2ETE

--X1bOJ3K7DJ5YkBrT--
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