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[68.12.97.90]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l128-20020acabb86000000b00342df642fd3sm1533825oif.48.2022.08.14.15.35.30 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sun, 14 Aug 2022 15:35:30 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2022 17:35:29 -0500 From: "G. Branden Robinson" To: DJ Chase Cc: Ingo Schwarze , Alejandro Colomar , linux-man@vger.kernel.org, groff@gnu.org Subject: Re: Standardize roff (was: *roff `\~` support) Message-ID: <20220814223529.tibd5roy5mtds3xv@illithid> References: <20220730161521+0200.203910-stepnem@gmail.com> <8edd0272-0c43-b5e7-9220-20094bb5ae23@gmail.com> <20220811201714.a2o432xhkyyyj6qi@illithid> <20220812221035.xd4udngmz5erht5p@illithid> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="bxw4wzga6u3ohgjq" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-man@vger.kernel.org --bxw4wzga6u3ohgjq Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable At 2022-08-14T14:49:10+0000, DJ Chase wrote: > On Sun Aug 14, 2022 at 9:56 AM EDT, Ingo Schwarze wrote: > > DJ Chase wrote on Sat, Aug 13, 2022 at 05:27:34PM +0000: > > > > > Have we ever considered a de jure *roff standard? > > > > No, i think that would be pure madness given the amount of working > > time available in any of the roff projects. Mark your calendars--Ingo and I are in substantial agreement. ;-) > This is very sad to hear. I think the take-away here is that the decision to formally standardize a technology, like many things, is an economic one. There are costs and benefits. Being seduced by the benefits without a full understanding of the costs often leads to remorse. (And, in many domains, fat commissions for sales personnel.) > That=E2=80=99s probably because *I* massively overrate the importance of > standardization (I mean I literally carry a standards binder with me). > Still, though, it=E2=80=99s rather annoying that end users =E2=80=94 espe= cially > programmers =E2=80=94 don=E2=80=99t value standards as much. I think it is less that programmers value standards in the wrong amount, than that they disregard them for the wrong reasons--like "moving fast" and building fragile solutions that will cost more on the back end after higher-paid decision makers have moved on to greener pastures. Nothing succeeds like handing your successor a trash fire. > Would an informal de jure standard You just defined "de facto standard". ;-) "De jure" is Latin for "of the law". If something is not codified in "law", or a normative document like a formal standard, then what is "standard" is simply the intersection of prevailing practices. > be of any use? Like how TOML just has a specification, but it=E2=80=99s > somewhat usable as a standard because it=E2=80=99s been pretty stable and > because it=E2=80=99s written clearly enough. A purely descriptive document, mainly comprising a matrix of features with escape sequence, request, and predefined register names on one axis and the names of implementations on the other, with version numbers and commentary populating the elements, could be a useful thing to have. 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