From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from smtp.kernel.org (aws-us-west-2-korg-mail-1.web.codeaurora.org [10.30.226.201]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 69A741B4F1E for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2024 17:27:18 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=10.30.226.201 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1734197238; cv=none; b=OSYJr0a0YSoC9Klxizj1GaApXW/ucw9b/Or9Iu+8m5Fi2qr9bjMjErev2Uv4Iu9cpgCHNc8v/ff+dDmZgM0b3kIQOXqJXNqpWXQRvh+Fr0ryumkYeN1nsk7f5ajpVtsVx+ciQPrQjUgT/fAEsN9jwjIPqxY2kyqHysG+fTZzYdY= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1734197238; c=relaxed/simple; bh=Zon8Nm49ENImlSJaTbIyVzbBhRkaE4tYBkvnNzkMCwU=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:References:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To; b=n50y2tEtCH8MMmG1OP+KYuNziOOiL6jcHykKS8A7rtK/7c9GwS8pZWtMiFOycQQ51QoDFPmAat2jtaok/vFJE1gW3IkFecl5I3KXwsLUCxey8G25G70I4UuqlPY5RpgiuSH3T/4N0OPgCzkYsLOFUM6GOPRovGXvtRia3QF1TV8= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kernel.org header.i=@kernel.org header.b=NVHOUN1P; arc=none smtp.client-ip=10.30.226.201 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kernel.org header.i=@kernel.org header.b="NVHOUN1P" Received: by smtp.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C779FC4CED1; Sat, 14 Dec 2024 17:27:16 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=kernel.org; s=k20201202; t=1734197237; bh=Zon8Nm49ENImlSJaTbIyVzbBhRkaE4tYBkvnNzkMCwU=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=NVHOUN1PmJBG0eXJrLlTCXbKS+ODpXkTyXvpicNe40RUJoDLRPOAk+FtWjpb7g0Me gjAc8HVG7+HybPPZ0o7R4v2H0+A/UuOY4Ql966sPyE4IEtcqc/EVq/6oYz+C9bQEIM psDg/oa448Wpp7iOzoC/EUk35kqUswJzBvBwsmP0lq/+sx0x2irbnJhNTNa3hjeu95 Xybp2cLx2vk9j+iDfxbjHzVpT2uxheWhSS5gguFIoE7JaeYigODOIcVLnlOLMcem7b 7Ya2E7ou5MtXXm1S60261kEIPrV6BBizLtu1zqzULrguzBDeqweDSluYhQd1lVtsma CJs27Xw3elI3g== Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2024 18:27:14 +0100 From: Alejandro Colomar To: "G. Branden Robinson" Cc: Helge Kreutzmann , Bruno Haible , linux-man@vger.kernel.org, Mario Blaettermann Subject: Re: names of ISO 8859 encodings Message-ID: <20241214172714.bostrlr6v3fxvmta@devuan> References: <3678665.hdfAi7Kttb@nimes> <20241214003716.gnockyne6qh7jpml@devuan> <20241214005654.vhpp4c46p7sw4zjr@illithid> <20241214154713.njpgwqgm4vycuiiq@illithid> Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-man@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="fxeorl6gn4hkcz72" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20241214154713.njpgwqgm4vycuiiq@illithid> --fxeorl6gn4hkcz72 Content-Type: text/plain; protected-headers=v1; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: names of ISO 8859 encodings MIME-Version: 1.0 Hi Branden, On Sat, Dec 14, 2024 at 09:47:13AM -0600, G. Branden Robinson wrote: > At 2024-12-14T06:12:15+0000, Helge Kreutzmann wrote: > > Am Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 06:56:54PM -0600 schrieb G. Branden Robinson: > > > Oy vey. Helge Kreutzmann submitted a similar bug report to groff > > > and I was planning to make the ISO -> ISO/IEC change to its man > > > pages. > >=20 > > I'm not going into the business of valuating which standards should be > > adhered to. But when referrring to the proper document the correct > > name should be given IMHO. I agree. >=20 > Possibly the "use/mention" distinction of linguistics would be helpful > here.[1] In some technical discussion contexts, we merely _mention_ a > character encoding standard. For instance, "This program is capable of > transliterating any document using an ISO/IEC 8859 character encoding to > valid UTF-8.". >=20 > In other contexts, we _use_ the identifier itself, perhaps as an input > argument to a program. For example: >=20 > $ iconv -f iso-8859-1 -t utf-8 NEWS >=20 > In this shell command, we must spell the character encoding specifiers > exactly as such,[2] and when documenting the foregoing in an example in > a man page, we are well advised to spell the hyphen-minus signs with > leading backslashes. >=20 > .RS > .EX > $ \c > .B "iconv \-f iso\-8859\-1 \-t utf\-8 NEWS" > .EE > .RE >=20 > Alex, do you think this issue is enough of a trip hazard to warrant > presentation in man-pages(7)? What's the issue? I think it's simple: When referring to a standard, use the pedantically correct name for it. When showing a command line, use text that is pedantically correct to the command interpreter. Am I missing anything? Cheers, Alex >=20 > > My personal opinion is that correct typography is important, but on > > quick reading I probably would not spot the differences amongs the > > various dashes for example. So for me, having all the correct letters > > is important and of course, to copy and paste text (e.g. code) where > > necessary, even if that violates typography standards. >=20 > I think we can avoid violating standards of typography; more precisely, > the process of rendering to an output device of limited capability will > violate those standards for us.[3] For example, a character-cell > terminal device generally can't (1) render arbitrary glyphs sequences > superscripted or subscripted[4]; (2) change the type size;[5] or (3) > change the font family (to use letterforms with or without serifs) for > only part of the rendered text (as opposed to the entire display, > including scrollback buffer) at once. >=20 > > And yes, I'm well aware that Branden and Donald Knuth (and successors) > > strive for well printed documents, and I'm glad for this. >=20 > That's pretty august company to be paired with. Lest anyone get any > inflated notions of my role in groff, Joe Ossanna of Bell Labs wrote > troff in the mid-1970s. After his untimely death, Brian Kernighan > refactored troff circa 1980 into "device-independent troff". These were > proprietary to AT&T (and commercial products for a while), so the FSF > hired James Clark to write a clean reimplementation of AT&T troff, > called groff, in about 1989. Werner Lemberg later became groff > maintainer and added many features to it such that it became a viable > alternative to TeX in many more applications (partisan preferences > aside). Then Bertrand Garrigues did some mostly unsung but badly needed > work on groff's build system, making it more pleasant to work with. My > role has largely been (1) fixing bugs; (2) writing automated tests to > (try to) ensure that dead bugs stay dead; (3) revising and correcting > documentation; and (4) making modest extensions and reforms to the *roff > language and some of the macro packages, provoking heated arguments > and/or revealing formerly unspecified behavior, around which some people > of course poured fast-drying cement in fits of delirium years ago. >=20 > In software as in religion, the commandments held most sacrosanct are > those that no one thought to write down in the first place. >=20 > ("Of _course_ I can interchange pointers and ints. No one ever said I > can't!" Eventually, they did say so. To much gnashing of teeth.) >=20 > Regards, > Branden >=20 > And now the footnotes, where we play free-association rambling bingo. >=20 > [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Use%E2%80%93mention_distinction >=20 > [2] a given system's iconv(1) command may recognize alternative names > for some encodings >=20 > [3] For example, the bash(1) man page contains this: >=20 > .if n Bash is Copyright (C) 1989-2024 by the Free Software Foundation, In= c. > .if t Bash is Copyright \(co 1989-2024 by the Free Software Foundation, I= nc. >=20 > In principle, this shouldn't be necessary. Chet should just write > the second line without the ".if t" conditional and delete the > first. The output device should know how to gracefully map the > special character "\(co" to a copyright sign, and itself do the job > of translating it to "(C)" if it has only an ASCII repertoire. > Presumably, at some point in the past Chet (or the initial Bash > maintainer, Brian Fox) used an nroff program that was defective, > and also labored under the no-longer-correct misconception that > omitting a copyright symbol from one's notice was a fatal defect > that effectively placed the work in the public domain. That > stopped being true as of 1 March 1989.[7] Further, prior to > guidance issued by the U.S. Copyright Office in the decades since, > the use of "(C)" as a substitute for a copyright sign _may not have > sufficed_ to prevent the copyright notice from being regarded as > defective. The Copyright Office, then and now, prefers the > abbreviation "copr." when =C2=A9 is typographically unavailable.[7] > Nowadays, its advice is that "c" (note lowercase) is an "acceptable > variant", that _may_ retain the efficacy of the copyright notice. > However, it is not the U.S. Copyright Office but the courts that > ultimately arbitrate such things. Moreover, given recent > developments, the Office's guidance to authors need not carry any > weight to a federal judge. Between the U.S. Supreme Court's repeal > of "Chevron Deference"[8] and the availability of a federal > district court in Western Texas offering itself as a venue to any > right-wing plaintiff in the country and pursuing a crusade of > maximalist Federalist [read: monarchist] Society doctrine with a > penchant for issuing nationwide permanent injunctions,[9][10] the > status of any federal statute, executive agency guidance, or even > constitutional provision[11] is uncertain for the next few years at > least. But rest assured--we term this sort of radical disruption > of American jurisprudence a "conservative" judicial philosophy. =F0= =9F=91=8D >=20 > [4] Often, the decimal digits 0-9 are available as superscripts. This > selection is too meager for general typography, let alone > mathematical typesetting where arbitrary, complex expressions may > occur in exponents, for instance. Occasionally you need an > integral up there. >=20 > [5] The DEC VT100 and its successors could do double-width and > double-size type.[6] Try this in your preferred terminal emulator. >=20 > $ printf "$(tput bold)\e#3See also\n\e#4See also$(tput sgr0)\n\ > $(tput sitm)xterm$(tput ritm)(1)\n\n\e#6Patch #395 2024-09-1= 1\ > $(tput sitm)xterm$(tput ritm)(1)\e#5\n" >=20 > Anyone think these are worth supporting in grotty(1)? ;-) >=20 > [6] https://vt100.net/docs/vt510-rm/DECDHL.html > https://vt100.net/docs/vt510-rm/DECDWL.html >=20 > [7] https://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ03.pdf > [8] https://www.scotusblog.com/2024/06/supreme-court-strikes-down-chevro= n-curtailing-power-of-federal-agencies/ > [9] https://www.americanprogress.org/article/the-5th-circuit-court-of-ap= peals-is-spearheading-a-judicial-power-grab/ >=20 > [10] I would not personally wager that copyright holders have much to > fear under the current regime; revenues consequent to copyrights > are a form of monopoly rent and therefore a worldwide tent pole of > conservative political economy. But, if a poweful stakeholder has > a prospect of a sufficiently large windfall from a radical change > to copyright protections, and is willing to spend lavishly enough > on political campaigns and super PACs, who knows what might happen? >=20 > Here's some model statutory language. "Any work under copyright by > any entity other than the Walt Disney Company, its subsidiaries, or > affiliates, enters the public domain as of January 1 of the year > subsequent to its fixation in tangible form." >=20 > I mean, that's just "common sense", right?[12] Only Disney has any > business adapting anything into a feature film, or exercising > merchandising rights. Duh. >=20 > [11] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/what-is-birthright-citizenship/ >=20 > [12] another term debased by conservative/centrist political rhetoric >=20 > I offer my own definition, in the spirit of Ambrose Bierce. >=20 > "Commonsense solution": a course of action I want to take for > reasons I will not share with you. --=20 --fxeorl6gn4hkcz72 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCgAdFiEE6jqH8KTroDDkXfJAnowa+77/2zIFAmddv+sACgkQnowa+77/ 2zJVZQ//ZdGw5m4vzdrZqTFwovMbcAAT3sNztIyYfDI5fPyQ7DzcZefrsu8gnzJm DjY3GVqt/lZ4JzS79UrBHkdhvABTednkYjnPxFTs/ZgV5H3e3VJia0USkUDuRayG gQwZRQw0F1xw3106sUG+cf2cmR/y4vt9s9REkCgEYx6CNTiQPlFfsOOQtcTaoQV3 OXWRImknkZHQSbkNTNg9KexyZMO2Yl5BMcLj0FN19FWLnSkYjxFZy1q/2saL0+2V QtAriaNz/I9EwT1QD0dd0qclMXr6A5LSujW0cLnHc8Y+jhMRz0MqdPfrYDmSaoGl 7n8CTD+oe9llMGrgnsOccO1hwTXAkO/jJLROB1fTSKm+5gJf5T/j48JBBHax5/J3 GJqmCtxc5sE2AFNq1nLFadVLdJQa9BevUXoX1IaO2qhUg0Z05mxZttLrjYG0NE6q Q08BT09fK0G6l6RM4w5mplrVAhLvy//QKM4YUHeIK2vqDpLKmmDODowXWxtcjy/p rkRaYVWOHCg2R9/YhXgu9nel+ZhICJ5J25Pdu7P8to1C2ZOYS85fMYSzTfSu8VkX vW73AGNBTMvlseTLehL4xf/sSEiR8pXehs5SG9AspilJbtErSBMZwp6ZcS3T6vbE qx8Iceb0Fh3oehrs5Lor5v4zSUBx2XYQL/jPycqVPfsshgYqk1E= =LMqo -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --fxeorl6gn4hkcz72--