From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mail-yx1-f50.google.com (mail-yx1-f50.google.com [74.125.224.50]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8D3C14B04B3 for ; Fri, 7 Aug 2026 03:49:45 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=74.125.224.50 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1786074586; cv=none; b=PnsT33XAUM/YQ2YilJe8dNs+wUNp03L4GkdnfX6uUmnuLEgHNh4dJQSHosYXtX9Mx4KtWqFb5LukBkjt7ZgR0KyjyHmiG8JGRxEuAhdXOp+UKu27uIOLDjbcV41wwrgILa+UckhPBp7PDlK9H+oQL0lyT1U2uusFQcOE8wTW+oI= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1786074586; c=relaxed/simple; bh=pQ7rKNzEV5uCdErxfEJVDcQW0G7fUr8xrYYhSdK5xA0=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:References:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To; b=KLcb4ikSyZ++1Pww+49E8eHiEaOCbDE/7XL2pO5NFbYFsLIfu5Cw6W6N/IKR2ozg20SwbgJQhwnLwE9kOuahuMfLQzQJuiZ9PO6zQz9CRELQ2B0j5umtNC10qXmBa6BQ29LABItXU5DpplifDvUl9GtIjOeLWyLbx8APH8tqX6Q= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=gmail.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=gmail.com; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b=pYYO/B48; arc=none smtp.client-ip=74.125.224.50 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=gmail.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=gmail.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.b="pYYO/B48" Received: by mail-yx1-f50.google.com with SMTP id 956f58d0204a3-6611669cd16so3987126d50.0 for ; Thu, 06 Aug 2026 20:49:45 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20251104; t=1786074584; x=1786679384; darn=vger.kernel.org; h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:content-type:mime-version :references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:from:to:cc:subject :date:message-id:reply-to:content-type; bh=e/PA6cEESsFq1gVIHRKN/aEwQHbzcHAu/pHQQXaZHi4=; b=pYYO/B48G+f9P6PHu9GkSDkfDosQFN00CiOk3vPiFf+ihsOeHF2Sc1mY0cDT4O1cIY 2pSSf9dtF9v1BxS5n4x3SjS1SvkwqKoXOa+cfMW7rVXxLIgvpP2wvpF8yvYuA7vU+KyH a0kWM9uYHRim83fGWAFVmSGnsVuwiFKOPSapRNSKrQjTkyEtIjCFoDdZrw9Yf49Jhj1K X1pFP+qeBwyd52GKmkFbhQsui+qwvFU/pwT3mLOcegW0XJsxZ6fnAwR8J2tz+CKEYlIp ZHd57fX+ouf1au5FaP4FEYQLxKq9Tq6bUkA0d6UgI9S6eSBqJ0fOnvqgj5hyWR2i1g7N Tcuw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20251104; t=1786074584; x=1786679384; h=in-reply-to:content-disposition:content-type:mime-version :references:message-id:subject:cc:to:from:date:x-gm-gg :x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to :content-type; bh=e/PA6cEESsFq1gVIHRKN/aEwQHbzcHAu/pHQQXaZHi4=; b=pF+fr/Z0KlXcLFmnM6IR5ehF7RYyzveD5v+4IEgXV2LGu/PFhYWJzU+1iPngqGSioU lXQC1oReGlxubLN+RLscbm313bLTYIV2lZl7CBlc0AG6nEHCHssJT6lYPCGuCnVjVcDR BPlfbmJ2CPtUT6bu++cYvpaUme8HEpgIAgr2leqMWF6+VSt8FrCo5Cn4vLo79MJ2nNgX qfI1DPCQuBNQphNZZN8jYjGlsiJKg1Xd6+djml9adIPRqgNx9wQNdoYhoe4ZJZHEf3iw UFyLfPKeSbArdm0ORKx8XIsZh7eBJREkTFDH355wp6USwPY42eqXAKP9/Ks4MsowVEeE OhCg== X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AHgh+RqHEtaS/SfEFie0c7gVYyXxtwJCtX3oZSr7NXVRxc10/xPjq1xDgxdWT9GX7HtjzolyRS2E1kQ1MPs=@vger.kernel.org X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YyCAKPiYQvCr+t2Pf6pgXXineYRI9y87a5GO8mlrCI5+UNKJV2d DuhwaTEc71b39LlrMGdz+BGJbW31adoLCghcVEZ6bYBxqLemzGxDntCs X-Gm-Gg: AR+sD105muTvIFDRLJuozStgGly+LiJ+w6T0u8cWMC2pGt227SQFPpxWKvx0USxS83Q yyDszzFhQZxVoQDIEHYnU/EdioTk9nhUt9vZG9EU9dYgQOtxEHilDS+CVcPbTN94NJZhGkI+0Kb bP2Ue/DvGvdqbXSHtbkddSgZBrRBUAmikIvjvnCR3f/IoTwkCXaCGNi4uYrBAAGfcXDhMtTzVSo VBjeuvfTBBHsrVgq75wHt7B1K4i+zGtFE/lBoB6Cd8QjX3D7noSj26y2MQe2t5dYuhfPB0ljP9m QUD/9YT43RxhCDe/9alb6AaJcjEBk7IP90jgbipW0+xKuTyE+b1eEP4zZJGcO9dZjkyEQQxaHjj TJclg+5jhGG6GRDGhejM5qow3JV02b34cyPR8Tj9GDBMiQkVKcnTUfN3dfTm5HRt1TCDPCL77iX S66l1NqeeYUeVUBVnxYwd/Q1EigRMvmhoEci0nevOQC10N/1jR7g== X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:22c7:b0:814:5f5b:6378 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-820222ac93fmr133015107b3.12.1786074584407; Thu, 06 Aug 2026 20:49:44 -0700 (PDT) Received: from illithid ([2600:1702:7cd0:e980::41]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 00721157ae682-823f5780991sm3051807b3.28.2026.08.06.20.49.43 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Thu, 06 Aug 2026 20:49:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 6 Aug 2026 22:49:35 -0500 From: "G. Branden Robinson" To: DJ Delorie Cc: alx@kernel.org, linux-man@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config Message-ID: <20260807034935.elgrkedh7c2a4txp@illithid> References: <20260807021256.pwzsls7awqmbslti@illithid> Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-man@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="srsvejtvtlzkr3sa" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: --srsvejtvtlzkr3sa Content-Type: text/plain; protected-headers=v1; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Subject: Re: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config MIME-Version: 1.0 At 2026-08-06T23:29:43-0400, DJ Delorie wrote: > The problem I had with .PD placement was not the compactness of the > list itself, but the inter-line spacing between the list and > previous/following paragraphs. You just have to know to put the .PDs > before the paragraphs that come after the space you want to affect: Right. But having to know that is one of those fiddly details that deters people from using man(7), no? https://lore.kernel.org/linux-man/xnse5q90jp.fsf@greed.delorie.com/ > .P > normal paragraph > .P > * list item > .PD 0 > .P > * list item > .P > * list item > .P > * list item > .PD > .P > normal paragraph >=20 > My HTML background had me put the first .PD before the first list > item, which bunched the list up against the previous paragraph. Control of this sort of detail of formatting is, I submit, more straightforward with the new `LS`/`LE` macros forthcoming in groff 1.25. If you want a (compact) list bunched up against the preceding paragraph, don't put a `P`[1] between the paragraph text and the list. If you don't want it bunched, _do_ put a `P` there. Here's an illustration of your example above using each method. $ cat ATTIC/dj-delorie-demo-PD.man =2ETH foo 1 2026-08-06 "groff test suite" =2ESH Name foo \- frobnicate a bar =2ESH Description Baz qux. =2EP normal paragraph =2EP * list item 1 =2EPD 0 =2EP * list item 2 =2EP * list item 3 =2EP * list item 4 =2EPD =2EP normal paragraph $ cat ATTIC/dj-delorie-demo-LS-LE.man =2ETH foo 1 2026-08-06 "groff test suite" =2ESH Name foo \- frobnicate a bar =2ESH Description Baz qux. =2EP normal paragraph =2EP =2ELS itemized 1 2n =2EIP * list item 1 =2EIP * list item 2 =2EIP * list item 3 =2EIP * list item 4 =2ELE =2EP normal paragraph These render the same. Here, I'll prove it: $ nroff -man ATTIC/dj-delorie-demo-PD.man >| dj-PD.txt $ nroff -man ATTIC/dj-delorie-demo-LS-LE.man >| dj-LS-LE.txt $ cksum dj-* 3663585518 394 dj-LS-LE.txt 3663585518 394 dj-PD.txt Since groff 1.25.0 isn't released yet, let me add full disclosure. $ nroff --version | head -n 1 GNU nroff (groff) version 1.25.0.rc2.16-0e05a The result? $ cat dj-LS-LE.txt foo(1) General Commands Manual f= oo(1) Name foo - frobnicate a bar Description Baz qux. normal paragraph * list item 1 * list item 2 * list item 3 * list item 4 normal paragraph groff test suite 2026=E2=80=9008=E2=80=9006 = foo(1) Regards, Branden [1] or its synonyms `PP` or `LP` --srsvejtvtlzkr3sa Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEh3PWHWjjDgcrENwa0Z6cfXEmbc4FAmp1VccACgkQ0Z6cfXEm bc5VoA//XrUkxULw+OJBifYjEkeeTFU9ehJ8CMEChDgRZCF4wt5KtmdlDGeZ1xiy 25+DmlPZKylBUPBNc25ZcpCycnW4yUabiEd6KfcLHQY3bxCTx+s0VZHCd4kpqCnL wnJuigQOI11QyybJLF6nPxmYfVR1c7ec+y0pQGaAOXTUCdfa0kRxgdl+hCZBC4YE q2nvmhKIECTKf0Sym1U7MLeLz50wd2xRe1VDUIM+T7tz+BYss0lD6IIAtpRDK+RW 8BW6cuGDn8DSJtRsGW/pjiR9v2Z3lBT91DNxmejSJGaai8is6oeEdBCsR6Ovyz1m DiWdmeLp3RNQZL2gt0+EzKm5VWgmeBB548m4nt6pk4j9C6h4Hx/L+QxPvX7ZO064 Q/IcGlQcvZRjtE2b/SKSSZImGDnaPc7FFFm4wwvWtWdfIKU1m/2GpREhrWFVwKma ooJb36i+iswXTPC4EkkChdXn9kul1qmeuytrkwIKcNp6HSNpoMRyqJTLOmTn2Ma3 75o5DjORl4W69Y9K0syX2BOu7ptajl25Sz08LLiSlrRvQu8GDHungJQD/TME7NQ4 Ikd0DVN7iJdm1P0R0I/A/tXP4pBdA5ELUBG/x2SUlAHCWCTDMBhBfInQHq4/DVOr a76VyeU4/QJUNJktiOsgOQohodzcb1oI9IXkLDJG2yp/oMWeznw= =bdW8 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --srsvejtvtlzkr3sa--