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Thu, 26 Jun 2025 16:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.0.241] ([198.48.244.52]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id af79cd13be357-7d44324bda7sm52077685a.115.2025.06.26.16.01.25 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 26 Jun 2025 16:01:25 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <42dad79f-e0f2-4731-ac14-0189f5d278a0@redhat.com> Date: Thu, 26 Jun 2025 19:01:24 -0400 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-man@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: man-pages-6.14 released To: Alejandro Colomar Cc: "Andries E. Brouwer" , linux-man@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, libc-alpha@sourceware.org References: <20250509112627.GA924923@if> <20250509121454.GA952723@if> <3e82680d-149c-4a67-b838-bc73c0be3e4e@redhat.com> Content-Language: en-US From: Carlos O'Donell Autocrypt: addr=carlos@redhat.com; keydata= xsFNBFef5BoBEACvJ15QMMZh4stKHbz0rs78XsOdxuug37dumTx6ngrDCwZ61k7nHQ+uxLuo QvLSc6YJGBEfiNFbs1hvhRFNR7xJbzRYmin7kJZZ/06fH2cgTkQhN0mRBP8KsKKT+7SvvBL7 85ZfAhArWf5m5Tl0CktZ8yoG8g9dM4SgdvdSdzZUaWBVHc6TjdAb9YEQ1/jpyfHsQp+PWLuQ ZI8nZUm+I3IBDLkbbuJVQklKzpT1b8yxVSsHCyIPFRqDDUjPL5G4WnUVy529OzfrciBvHdxG sYYDV8FX7fv6V/S3eL6qmZbObivIbLD2NbeDqw6vNpr+aehEwgwNbMVuVfH1PVHJV8Qkgxg4 PqPgQC7GbIhxxYroGbLJCQ41j25M+oqCO/XW/FUu/9x0vY5w0RsZFhlmSP5lBDcaiy3SUgp3 MSTePGuxpPlLVMePxKvabSS7EErLKlrAEmDgnUYYdPqGCefA+5N9Rn2JPfP7SoQEp2pHhEyM 6Xg9x7TJ+JNuDowQCgwussmeDt2ZUeMl3s1f6/XePfTd3l8c8Yn5Fc8reRa28dFANU6oXiZf 7/h3iQXPg81BsLMJK3aA/nyajRrNxL8dHIx7BjKX0/gxpOozlUHZHl73KhAvrBRaqLrr2tIP LkKrf3d7wdz4llg4NAGIU4ERdTTne1QAwS6x2tNa9GO9tXGPawARAQABzSpDYXJsb3MgTydE b25lbGwgKFdvcmspIDxjYXJsb3NAcmVkaGF0LmNvbT7CwZUEEwEIAD8CGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUI AgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAFiEEcnNUKzmWLfeymZMUFnkrTqJTQPgFAmagDwgFCRDhXm4ACgkQ FnkrTqJTQPgLlw/+JD7l4tj8l8hAMUlszrlIT6IhKSODzjrGO+6d9Y6T9vyE2kk4Xbn+kdJf uBl+wj2+U15MsQe9Z4RwowIB3YHHXgj53M2OjqOAY/sRWXZVDfmVj03hqW8D7zFxjc0SZ9cI TI0MwrDWc+Fr3naXeo7HhgjUmULfPndxb8NHVV4Ds2DTkZoUMwB8l3dboD+nKi5GbfVBf3Q5 cBw0CPkxPl0hxD9sr5IMgWIKVLtvztMIXv2xWAavqk8pQjk0zCYd46GcA8d9pZuac24e9NbM ZzTxu6cP0sKhub1JFIadyBHtJnEV/8Auc8nXJ63QY3h0QVCJYV35gQeejEdMD94in2XTkxk0 A/xCp32bmSZv5flsmdAIv5LK4jTKLvzd6BSy/v7qlpgQ7sNaxQ/JRd+8YuBIiUVIp/kgGezD qtGZSpvPCFuG3LxsdvAu7JAzBY3sfBd2lSGOeHX/JK0nQ6s97j4HlSuXIabSOdsCI5UGSOq5 thbIqfK3ewUSUB0yGvWf7EyuZugtCZOaFGpvcT3ix9/sP1fTRlJl+bNjMcO8GwedDoy85oeg yLCEV9gejCr+NijLfPYtb1s8o0hYu13uBojFyBv+bkUI5hTQaVLacq7VglA/QLOy/3mtM2v5 4OEotiNXbKypHFKnoks/MFpP4xdwxGX5jU4MgFg80aPFGr0oZVXOwU0EV5/kGgEQAKvTJke+ QSjATmz11ALKle/SSEpUwL5QOpt3xomEATcYAamww0HADfGTKdUR+aWgOK3vqu6Sicr1zbuZ jHCs2GaIgRoqh1HKVgCmaJYjizvidHluqrox6qqc9PG0bWb0f5xGQw+X2z+bEinzv4qaep1G 1OuYgvG49OpHTgZMiJq9ncHCxkD2VEJKgMywGJ4Agdl+NWVn0T7w6J+/5QmBIE8hh4NzpYfr xzWCJ9iZ3skG4zBGB4YEacc3+oeEoybc10h6tqhQNrtIiSRJH+SUJvOiNH8oMXPLAjfFVy3d 4BOgyxJhE0UhmQIQHMJxCBw81fQD10d0dcru0rAIEldEpt2UXqOr0rOALDievMF/2BKQiOA7 PbMC3/dwuNHDlClQzdjil8O7UsIgf3IMFaIbQoUEvjlgf5cm9a94gWABcfI1xadAq9vcIB5v +9fM71xDgdELnZThTd8LByrG99ExVMcG2PZYXJllVDQDZqYA1PjD9e0yHq5whJi3BrZgwDaL 5vYZEb1EMyH+BQLO3Zw/Caj8W6mooGHgNveRQ1g9FYn3NUp7UvS22Zt/KW4pCpbgkQZefxup KO6QVNwwggV44cTQ37z5onGbNPD8+2k2mmC0OEtGBkj+VH39tRk+uLOcuXlGNSVk3xOyxni0 Nk9M0GvTvPKoah9gkvL/+AofN/31ABEBAAHCwXwEGAEIACYCGwwWIQRyc1QrOZYt97KZkxQW eStOolNA+AUCZqAPEAUJEOFedgAKCRAWeStOolNA+D38D/9WnZY9fUmPhZVwpDnhIXvlXgqX cspZJEBWNS5ArFn8CLcje7z9hzX3+86lqkEeohTmlgtTg4ctZzM+XKyWSiqHCRCR+FX5SKaa 1VveBtwvjTSVmtV1m0rNHEvUZ5x47A8NadWqYi6uOQ22FhEqUOiwJ7EHzk4w9W3gT1913XT1 vmkCn6FtQcrQvJT7pP+oA0YIVs8ADayJcqWHM+Ez7L2fpfAzBDhIS7dq2MYU8LQOQAsx1y7H 6njp5dN/OI/aN/RL6XeX1Kxl4Xe+hc+tq457fLAUnmaevUldvKThuj+5/Cd4DW25MxaqinfY m/U6pBQ4ZwQPGWA0f+GKiJcLosSRXxIuEdZAl82ht+KgT3zhV/BvQRmrD6wX3ywPkJap8h4K ibwz3r6NbHKdCX22ok58oE8NAWtmTRTKXDhh8oWOKdIYjX6jJzdb/F8rPNoEY3UiYbaNTxt5 TE9VD+yWilYO796HMXjXenCOlghy3HFmZbsQ4N+FlG6LQD7cnwm56kcrJk1IlnQXOSOd2BA2 qNbM1Ohry3B+1F4Oaee+ZKH2C5y7Kx0y3m1b5X7Wpx76H5BeUAp6dQi6nNYeqM9PglZIMvSe O4uRThl5mMDx8MXQz6M9qQ5anYwre+/TudTfCzcTpgXod1wEqi2ErJ5jNgh18DRlSQ3tbDvG O0FatDMfJw== Organization: Red Hat In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 6/26/25 5:04 PM, Alejandro Colomar wrote: > Hi Carlos, > > On Thu, Jun 26, 2025 at 04:41:16PM -0400, Carlos O'Donell wrote: >> On 5/9/25 8:14 AM, Andries E. Brouwer wrote: >>> Hi Alejandro, >>> >>>>> I wonder about the legal status of such a change. >>>>> There is ownership of the pages, and a license that allows >>>>> others to do certain things. >>>> >>>> I also wonder about it. We discussed it for several (~3) months, and I >>>> documented links to the discussion in the commit message: >>>> >>>> commit 9f2986c34166085225bb5606ebfd4952054e1657 >>>> Author: Alejandro Colomar >>>> Date: Fri Apr 11 02:19:48 2025 +0200 >>>> >>>> *, CREDITS: Unify copyright notices >>>> Link: >>>> Link: >>> >>> So I read this last link, and see >>> >>> "Don’t change someone else’s copyright notice without their permission >>> You should not change or remove someone else’s copyright notice unless >>> they have expressly (in writing) permitted you to do so. This includes >>> third parties’ notices in pre-existing code." >>> >>> The main topic of that link is how one should document new contributions, >>> and writing "by the contributors of the foo project" is OK for new stuff, >>> of course provided the new contributor agrees. >>> In my opinion it is illegal to change existing copyright notices, >>> unless you get permission from all people involved, which seems unlikely. >> >> I agree with Andries. >> >> This is also my interpretation, you cannot remove these entries without >> express permission from the copyright holder. > > Well, we got express permission for a third of the copyright holders in > the last few months. Also, we got no express notices in the contrary, > so around two thirds have remained silent. You should track down the copyright holders and get written approval, or restore the copyright notices. This is exactly the difficulty in maintaining such written notices. And why they are no longer recommended. > We could restore those that haven't expressely granted permission... Yes please. May I suggest doing a new release with the copyrights restored? > The thing is, as someone else mentioned, removals happen also implicitly > by moving text from one page to another and not copying copyright > notices, so how much does it matter an intentional rewrite of the > copyright notices into a different form (but which keeps their > copyright, as part of the AUTHORS file), compared to an unintentional > removal of copyright by moving the text (these do actually remove > copyright, so these are the problematic ones). Both are legally mistakes. The common utterance is "As compliance approaches 100% cost approaches infinity" :-) However, you should not deny anyone the right to have their copyright directly noted in the file, but you can encourage the generic use of "Copyright the Foo Authors." You can deny the contribution entirely if you wish on grounds that maintaining copyright statements is too much work. > By rewriting the copyright notices, we'd actually be honoring the > copyright, even when text is moved from page to page. I think that is > more important. And since all explicit notices have granted us > permission, even if some have remained silent (in some cases, their > email probably isn't monitored anymore), I think we should go forward. I agree, but you need permission from the authors. I disagree that man-pages should go forward with the current changes. May you please restore the copyright notices and cut a new release? -- Cheers, Carlos.