POSIX manual pages

POSIX manual pages

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi Andrew, Geoff,

I'm the maintainer of the Linux man-pages project[1], and also of the
man-pages-posix project[2].

[1]:  <https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/docs/man-pages/man-pages.git/>
[2]:  <https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/docs/man-pages/man-pages-posix.git/>

From those upstream projects, GNU/Linux distros distribute packages like
Debian's manpages-posix and manpages-posix-dev (in the non-free
section)[3].

[3]:  <https://packages.debian.org/source/sid/hppa/manpages-posix>

I find it very uncomfortable to maintain the man-pages-posix project, as
I don't have access to the source code of the pages.  I don't know what
agreement was reached with the previous maintainer of the project,
Michael Kerrisk, but I'd like to ask if it would be possible to open the
sources, and what conditions would be nonnegotiable for something like
that to happen.

Ideally, I'd be able to make a fork of POSIX's git repository, and push
that fork to the kernel.org repo.  Maybe POSIX requires that the pages
not be modified, or some section mentioning that the page has been
modified and is not a source of truth.

I intend to distribute the pages as close as possible to the originals,
with little to no modification; the only kind of modifications that I
have in mind are typo fixes and formatting fixes, and use the build
system of the Linux man-pages project, but I'd keep the source code
largely untouched.

You'd probably have a source of bug reports here too.  :)

Thanks,

Alex


-- 
<http://www.alejandro-colomar.es/>
GPG key fingerprint: A9348594CE31283A826FBDD8D57633D441E25BB5

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Re: POSIX manual pages

[Andrew Josey]

hi Alex

Thanks for your mail. In the past we have liaised with Michael Kerrisk.
Let me look at what has been done in the past then get back to you.


Please note that we develop our pages in our own macro set, although
do use groff as our typesetter. 
There are also certain conditions that the copyright holders impose on us.

regards
Andrew

> On 17 Aug 2023, at 21:01, Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Andrew, Geoff,
> 
> I'm the maintainer of the Linux man-pages project[1], and also of the
> man-pages-posix project[2].
> 
> [1]:  <https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/docs/man-pages/man-pages.git/>
> [2]:  <https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/docs/man-pages/man-pages-posix.git/>
> 
> From those upstream projects, GNU/Linux distros distribute packages like
> Debian's manpages-posix and manpages-posix-dev (in the non-free
> section)[3].
> 
> [3]:  <https://packages.debian.org/source/sid/hppa/manpages-posix>
> 
> I find it very uncomfortable to maintain the man-pages-posix project, as
> I don't have access to the source code of the pages.  I don't know what
> agreement was reached with the previous maintainer of the project,
> Michael Kerrisk, but I'd like to ask if it would be possible to open the
> sources, and what conditions would be nonnegotiable for something like
> that to happen.
> 
> Ideally, I'd be able to make a fork of POSIX's git repository, and push
> that fork to the kernel.org repo.  Maybe POSIX requires that the pages
> not be modified, or some section mentioning that the page has been
> modified and is not a source of truth.
> 
> I intend to distribute the pages as close as possible to the originals,
> with little to no modification; the only kind of modifications that I
> have in mind are typo fixes and formatting fixes, and use the build
> system of the Linux man-pages project, but I'd keep the source code
> largely untouched.
> 
> You'd probably have a source of bug reports here too.  :)
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Alex
> 
> 
> -- 
> <http://www.alejandro-colomar.es/>
> GPG key fingerprint: A9348594CE31283A826FBDD8D57633D441E25BB5

--------
Andrew Josey                 
VP, Standards & Certification,	The Open Group          
Email: a.josey@opengroup.org
Apex Plaza,Forbury Road,Reading,Berks. RG1 1AX,UK.

The Open Group Certifications, see https://www.opengroup.org/certifications

ArchiMate, FACE logo, Making Standards Work, Open O  logo, Open O and Check certification logo, OSDU, Platform 3.0, The Open Group, TOGAF, UNIX, UNIXWARE, and X logo are registered trademarks and Boundaryless Information Flow, Build with Integrity Buy with Confidence, Commercial Aviation Reference Architecture, Dependability Through Assuredness, Digital Practitioner Body of Knowledge, DPBoK, EMMM, FACE, FHIM Profile Builder, FHIM  logo, FPB, Future Airborne Capability Environment, IT4IT, IT4IT logo, O-AA, O-DEF, O-HERA, O-PAS, Open Agile Architecture, Open FAIR, Open Footprint, Open Process Automation, Open Subsurface Data Universe, Open Trusted Technology Provider, Sensor Integration Simplified, SOSA, and SOSA logo are trademarks of The Open Group.

Re: POSIX manual pages

[Andrew Josey]

hi Alejandro

Apologies for the delay.

Are you in touch with Michael Kerrisk? In the past we have worked with him and made a permissions grant - which outlines the terms we are able to grant — these are limited
by the copyright holders. 
It also appeared in discussions with Michael in 2020, that he had a way to convert the source format to man page format.
regards
Andrew



> On 17 Aug 2023, at 21:01, Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Andrew, Geoff,
> 
> I'm the maintainer of the Linux man-pages project[1], and also of the
> man-pages-posix project[2].
> 
> [1]:  <https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/docs/man-pages/man-pages.git/>
> [2]:  <https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/docs/man-pages/man-pages-posix.git/>
> 
> From those upstream projects, GNU/Linux distros distribute packages like
> Debian's manpages-posix and manpages-posix-dev (in the non-free
> section)[3].
> 
> [3]:  <https://packages.debian.org/source/sid/hppa/manpages-posix>
> 
> I find it very uncomfortable to maintain the man-pages-posix project, as
> I don't have access to the source code of the pages.  I don't know what
> agreement was reached with the previous maintainer of the project,
> Michael Kerrisk, but I'd like to ask if it would be possible to open the
> sources, and what conditions would be nonnegotiable for something like
> that to happen.
> 
> Ideally, I'd be able to make a fork of POSIX's git repository, and push
> that fork to the kernel.org repo.  Maybe POSIX requires that the pages
> not be modified, or some section mentioning that the page has been
> modified and is not a source of truth.
> 
> I intend to distribute the pages as close as possible to the originals,
> with little to no modification; the only kind of modifications that I
> have in mind are typo fixes and formatting fixes, and use the build
> system of the Linux man-pages project, but I'd keep the source code
> largely untouched.
> 
> You'd probably have a source of bug reports here too.  :)
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Alex
> 
> 
> -- 
> <http://www.alejandro-colomar.es/>
> GPG key fingerprint: A9348594CE31283A826FBDD8D57633D441E25BB5

--------
Andrew Josey                 
VP, Standards & Certification,	The Open Group          
Email: a.josey@opengroup.org
Apex Plaza,Forbury Road,Reading,Berks. RG1 1AX,UK.

The Open Group Certifications, see https://www.opengroup.org/certifications

ArchiMate, FACE logo, Making Standards Work, Open O  logo, Open O and Check certification logo, OSDU, Platform 3.0, The Open Group, TOGAF, UNIX, UNIXWARE, and X logo are registered trademarks and Boundaryless Information Flow, Build with Integrity Buy with Confidence, Commercial Aviation Reference Architecture, Dependability Through Assuredness, Digital Practitioner Body of Knowledge, DPBoK, EMMM, FACE, FHIM Profile Builder, FHIM  logo, FPB, Future Airborne Capability Environment, IT4IT, IT4IT logo, O-AA, O-DEF, O-HERA, O-PAS, Open Agile Architecture, Open FAIR, Open Footprint, Open Process Automation, Open Subsurface Data Universe, Open Trusted Technology Provider, Sensor Integration Simplified, SOSA, and SOSA logo are trademarks of The Open Group.

Re: POSIX manual pages

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi Andrew,

[I reordered your answer for my response.]

On 2023-09-05 14:34, Andrew Josey wrote:
> 
> hi Alejandro
> 
> Apologies for the delay.

NP

> 
> Are you in touch with Michael Kerrisk?

Nope.

> It also appeared in discussions with Michael in 2020, that he had a way to convert the source format to man page format.

Yep, this is probably "the way":

<https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/docs/man-pages/man-pages-posix.git/tree/posix.py>

> In the past we have worked with him and made a permissions grant - which outlines the terms we are able to grant — these are limited
> by the copyright holders. 

I understand.  Would it be possible to suggest the copyright holders opening a
little bit more?  The C++ standard seems to be more open (it has a public git
repository with the source of the drafts) [1].  Maybe POSIX could do something
similar?    It would make contributions to the man-pages-posix project easier,
as contributors would be able to test the script with the original sources;
instead of just blindly trying something, and asking the maintainer to try it
with the secret sources.

[1]:  <https://github.com/cplusplus/draft>


Cheers,

Alex

-- 
<http://www.alejandro-colomar.es/>
GPG key fingerprint: A9348594CE31283A826FBDD8D57633D441E25BB5


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Re: POSIX manual pages

[Brian Inglis]

On 2023-09-13 10:15, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> Hi Andrew,
> 
> [I reordered your answer for my response.]
> 
> On 2023-09-05 14:34, Andrew Josey wrote:
>>
>> hi Alejandro
>>
>> Apologies for the delay.
> 
> NP
> 
>>
>> Are you in touch with Michael Kerrisk?
> 
> Nope.
> 
>> It also appeared in discussions with Michael in 2020, that he had a way to convert the source format to man page format.
> 
> Yep, this is probably "the way":
> 
> <https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/docs/man-pages/man-pages-posix.git/tree/posix.py>
> 
>> In the past we have worked with him and made a permissions grant - which outlines the terms we are able to grant — these are limited
>> by the copyright holders.
> 
> I understand.  Would it be possible to suggest the copyright holders opening a
> little bit more?  The C++ standard seems to be more open (it has a public git
> repository with the source of the drafts) [1].  Maybe POSIX could do something
> similar?    It would make contributions to the man-pages-posix project easier,
> as contributors would be able to test the script with the original sources;
> instead of just blindly trying something, and asking the maintainer to try it
> with the secret sources.
> 
> [1]:  <https://github.com/cplusplus/draft>

Hi Alex,

Perhaps you could request terms allowing you to maintain your own downstream 
repo(s) of the *generated* man pages, as you do of the linux man pages @ 
alejandro-colomar.es & git.kernel.org?

There would need to be a COPYRIGHT/COLOPHON disclaimer about content issues to 
be addressed to the Austin Group, and man page formatting issues to a posix-man 
list, if they are or you want to keep them separate, and kernel.org is agreeable 
to hosting a vger./lore.kernel.org posix-man list and git.kernel.org repo?

There are unlikely to be man page changes issued between releases (or released 
between issues?).

-- 
Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis              Calgary, Alberta, Canada

La perfection est atteinte                   Perfection is achieved
non pas lorsqu'il n'y a plus rien à ajouter  not when there is no more to add
mais lorsqu'il n'y a plus rien à retirer     but when there is no more to cut
                                 -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry


[PDF drafts are freely available to registered users for personal use under:

	https://www.opengroup.org/austin/restricted/

discussions are freely visible in the bug tracker

	https://www.austingroupbugs.net/

documents are freely available via the document register

	https://www.opengroup.org/austin/docreg.html

with both shown on the mailing list archived at

	https://www.mail-archive.com/austin-group-l@opengroup.org/

which also has an Atom/RSS feed (which I prefer to use for most lists)

	https://www.mail-archive.com/austin-group-l@opengroup.org/maillist.xml.]

Re: POSIX manual pages

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi Brian,

On 2023-09-13 20:09, Brian Inglis wrote:
> On 2023-09-13 10:15, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
>> Hi Andrew,
>>
>> [I reordered your answer for my response.]
>>
>> On 2023-09-05 14:34, Andrew Josey wrote:
>>>
>>> hi Alejandro
>>>
>>> Apologies for the delay.
>>
>> NP
>>
>>>
>>> Are you in touch with Michael Kerrisk?
>>
>> Nope.
>>
>>> It also appeared in discussions with Michael in 2020, that he had a way to convert the source format to man page format.
>>
>> Yep, this is probably "the way":
>>
>> <https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/docs/man-pages/man-pages-posix.git/tree/posix.py>
>>
>>> In the past we have worked with him and made a permissions grant - which outlines the terms we are able to grant — these are limited
>>> by the copyright holders.
>>
>> I understand.  Would it be possible to suggest the copyright holders opening a
>> little bit more?  The C++ standard seems to be more open (it has a public git
>> repository with the source of the drafts) [1].  Maybe POSIX could do something
>> similar?    It would make contributions to the man-pages-posix project easier,
>> as contributors would be able to test the script with the original sources;
>> instead of just blindly trying something, and asking the maintainer to try it
>> with the secret sources.
>>
>> [1]:  <https://github.com/cplusplus/draft>
> 
> Hi Alex,
> 
> Perhaps you could request terms allowing you to maintain your own downstream 
> repo(s) of the *generated* man pages,

This does exist: <https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/docs/man-pages/man-pages-posix.git/>

Although it would be nice to have the terms be explicitly stated in the repository.

> as you do of the linux man pages @ 
> alejandro-colomar.es & git.kernel.org?

And I have a clone at <http://www.alejandro-colomar.es/src/alx/linux/man-pages/man-pages-posix.git/>

> 
> There would need to be a COPYRIGHT/COLOPHON disclaimer about content issues to 
> be addressed to the Austin Group, and man page formatting issues to a posix-man 
> list, if they are or you want to keep them separate, and kernel.org is agreeable 
> to hosting a vger./lore.kernel.org posix-man list and git.kernel.org repo?

This section also exists:

<https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/docs/man-pages/man-pages-posix.git/tree/man-pages-posix-2017/man3p/printf.3p#n24>

> 
> There are unlikely to be man page changes issued between releases (or released 
> between issues?).

But I don't want to maintain the generated man(7) pages.  I want to be able to:

-  Contribute directly to the POSIX source code.

-  Maintain the translation script.

   Alternatively, I'd like to make groff(1) be able to translate files written
   in any macro package into roff(7), but that's either hard or impossible.
   Branden, do you regard it as hard or as impossible?  Is the same answer true
   for a groff(1)-like program written from scratch with this in mind?  :)

-  Remove the man(7) generated pages from the repo.  One should build the pages
   with make(1), but they should not be part of any repository.

   I'd like to include the POSIX source code as a git submodule, or something
   similar.  Or maybe have the man-pages-posix repo be a fork of it.


Cheers,
Alex

-- 
<http://www.alejandro-colomar.es/>
GPG key fingerprint: A9348594CE31283A826FBDD8D57633D441E25BB5


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Re: POSIX manual pages

[Brian Inglis]

On 2023-09-13 15:37, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> Hi Brian,
> 
> On 2023-09-13 20:09, Brian Inglis wrote:
>> On 2023-09-13 10:15, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
>>> Hi Andrew,
>>>
>>> [I reordered your answer for my response.]
>>>
>>> On 2023-09-05 14:34, Andrew Josey wrote:
>>>>
>>>> hi Alejandro
>>>>
>>>> Apologies for the delay.
>>>
>>> NP
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Are you in touch with Michael Kerrisk?
>>>
>>> Nope.
>>>
>>>> It also appeared in discussions with Michael in 2020, that he had a way to convert the source format to man page format.
>>>
>>> Yep, this is probably "the way":
>>>
>>> <https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/docs/man-pages/man-pages-posix.git/tree/posix.py>
>>>
>>>> In the past we have worked with him and made a permissions grant - 
>>>> which outlines the terms we are able to grant — these are limited by
>>>> the copyright holders.

>>> I understand.  Would it be possible to suggest the copyright holders opening a
>>> little bit more?  The C++ standard seems to be more open (it has a public git
>>> repository with the source of the drafts) [1].  Maybe POSIX could do something
>>> similar? It would make contributions to the man-pages-posix project easier,
>>> as contributors would be able to test the script with the original sources;
>>> instead of just blindly trying something, and asking the maintainer to try it
>>> with the secret sources.
>>>
>>> [1]:  <https://github.com/cplusplus/draft>

>> Perhaps you could request terms allowing you to maintain your own downstream
>> repo(s) of the *generated* man pages,

> This does exist: <https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/docs/man-pages/man-pages-posix.git/>
> Although it would be nice to have the terms be explicitly stated in the repository.

Already there in POSIX-COPYRIGHT?

>> as you do of the linux man pages @ alejandro-colomar.es & git.kernel.org?

> And I have a clone at <http://www.alejandro-colomar.es/src/alx/linux/man-pages/man-pages-posix.git/>

>> There would need to be a COPYRIGHT/COLOPHON disclaimer about content issues to
>> be addressed to the Austin group, and man page formatting issues to a posix-man
>> list, if they are or you want to keep them separate, and kernel.org is agreeable
>> to hosting a vger./lore.kernel.org posix-man list and git.kernel.org repo?

> This section also exists:
> 
> <https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/docs/man-pages/man-pages-posix.git/tree/man-pages-posix-2017/man3p/printf.3p#n24>

>> There are unlikely to be man page changes issued between releases (or released
>> between issues?).

> But I don't want to maintain the generated man(7) pages.  I want to be able to:
> 
> -  Contribute directly to the POSIX source code.

The Austin group has their own mailing list, bug tracker, process for tracking 
defect reports, handling their formatting and content issues, and a sometimes 
prolonged timeframe for doing so.

You can only be responsible for formatting POSIX/SUS/Open Group content in a 
compatible manner.

> -  Maintain the translation script.
> 
>     Alternatively, I'd like to make groff(1) be able to translate files written
>     in any macro package into roff(7), but that's either hard or impossible.
>     Branden, do you regard it as hard or as impossible?  Is the same answer true
>     for a groff(1)-like program written from scratch with this in mind?  :)
> 
> -  Remove the man(7) generated pages from the repo.  One should build the pages
>     with make(1), but they should not be part of any repository.

If there are any formatting issues, that is what you have to maintain.

>     I'd like to include the POSIX source code as a git submodule, or something
>     similar.  Or maybe have the man-pages-posix repo be a fork of it.

That may be a good way to access the upstream, but the file names look to me 
like SCCS edit temp files, so perhaps a strictly POSIX system using only 
strictly POSIX tools, on which they can "eat their own dog food"?

As your upstream content appears from the sample shown by Eric and the 
conversion in posix.py to possibly be a mix of mm and mdoc macros and variants, 
it might be easier to generate POSIX pages in mandoc/groff_mdoc format, if you 
could live with that, and maintain those.

[That is how the other main genre of (BSD) distros do man pages, and most 
systems have a mix from BSD derived packages (and those who prefer mandoc to 
man) e.g. dash(1), dejagnu(1), etc.]

-- 
Take care. Thanks, Brian Inglis              Calgary, Alberta, Canada

La perfection est atteinte                   Perfection is achieved
non pas lorsqu'il n'y a plus rien à ajouter  not when there is no more to add
mais lorsqu'il n'y a plus rien à retirer     but when there is no more to cut
                                 -- Antoine de Saint-Exupéry

Re: POSIX manual pages

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi Brian,

On 2023-09-15 19:17, Brian Inglis wrote:
>> This does exist: <https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/docs/man-pages/man-pages-posix.git/>
>> Although it would be nice to have the terms be explicitly stated in the repository.
> 
> Already there in POSIX-COPYRIGHT?

Indeed.


>> -  Contribute directly to the POSIX source code.
> 
> The Austin group has their own mailing list, bug tracker, process for tracking 
> defect reports, handling their formatting and content issues, and a sometimes 
> prolonged timeframe for doing so.

You have to go through many hoops to do that.  They could be more open in that
regard.  And it would certainly be much better if I could propose a patch
against the source code.

> 
> You can only be responsible for formatting POSIX/SUS/Open Group content in a 
> compatible manner.
> 
>> -  Maintain the translation script.
>>
>>     Alternatively, I'd like to make groff(1) be able to translate files written
>>     in any macro package into roff(7), but that's either hard or impossible.
>>     Branden, do you regard it as hard or as impossible?  Is the same answer true
>>     for a groff(1)-like program written from scratch with this in mind?  :)
>>
>> -  Remove the man(7) generated pages from the repo.  One should build the pages
>>     with make(1), but they should not be part of any repository.
> 
> If there are any formatting issues, that is what you have to maintain.

If there are formatting issues, they could fix them upstream.  Of course, if
upstream doesn't patch, then I'll have to do that, but I'd like to minimize it.

> 
>>     I'd like to include the POSIX source code as a git submodule, or something
>>     similar.  Or maybe have the man-pages-posix repo be a fork of it.
> 
> That may be a good way to access the upstream, but the file names look to me 
> like SCCS edit temp files, so perhaps a strictly POSIX system using only 
> strictly POSIX tools, on which they can "eat their own dog food"?
> 
> As your upstream content appears from the sample shown by Eric and the 
> conversion in posix.py to possibly be a mix of mm and mdoc macros and variants, 
> it might be easier to generate POSIX pages in mandoc/groff_mdoc format, if you 
> could live with that, and maintain those.

Yes, although we'd need to generate a script for that.  But yeah, I'm completely
open to mdoc(7) for this.

> 
> [That is how the other main genre of (BSD) distros do man pages, and most 
> systems have a mix from BSD derived packages (and those who prefer mandoc to 
> man) e.g. dash(1), dejagnu(1), etc.]
> 

Cheers,
Alex

-- 
<http://www.alejandro-colomar.es/>
GPG key fingerprint: A9348594CE31283A826FBDD8D57633D441E25BB5


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Re: POSIX manual pages

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi Andrew,

Do you have any updates about this?

On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 06:15:09PM GMT, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> Hi Andrew,
> 
> [I reordered your answer for my response.]
> 
> On 2023-09-05 14:34, Andrew Josey wrote:
> > 
> > hi Alejandro
> > 
> > Apologies for the delay.
> 
> NP
> 
> > 
> > Are you in touch with Michael Kerrisk?
> 
> Nope.
> 
> > It also appeared in discussions with Michael in 2020, that he had a way to convert the source format to man page format.
> 
> Yep, this is probably "the way":
> 
> <https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/docs/man-pages/man-pages-posix.git/tree/posix.py>
> 
> > In the past we have worked with him and made a permissions grant - which outlines the terms we are able to grant — these are limited
> > by the copyright holders. 
> 
> I understand.  Would it be possible to suggest the copyright holders opening a
> little bit more?  The C++ standard seems to be more open (it has a public git
> repository with the source of the drafts) [1].  Maybe POSIX could do something
> similar?    It would make contributions to the man-pages-posix project easier,
> as contributors would be able to test the script with the original sources;
> instead of just blindly trying something, and asking the maintainer to try it
> with the secret sources.

Just to remind of what I'm asking:

-  A publicly accessible git repository containing (at least) the drafts
   of the POSIX standard roff(7) sources, similar to
   <https://github.com/cplusplus/draft> (which is not roff(7); I just
   mean similar in that it's publicly available, and it contains ISO
   standard draft sources).

I would include that repository as a git submodule of
man-pages-posix.git, where I would maintain the translation script for
building the manual pages.

Have a lovely day!
Alex

> 
> [1]:  <https://github.com/cplusplus/draft>
> 
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Alex
> 
> -- 
> <http://www.alejandro-colomar.es/>
> GPG key fingerprint: A9348594CE31283A826FBDD8D57633D441E25BB5
> 




-- 
<https://www.alejandro-colomar.es/>

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Re: POSIX manual pages

[Andrew Josey]

hi Alejandro


Unfortunately, we have no plans to move to a public git repository for managing the development of the standard.

regards
Andrew



> On 1 Jun 2024, at 18:54, Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org> wrote:
> 
> Hi Andrew,
> 
> Do you have any updates about this?
> 
> On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 06:15:09PM GMT, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
>> Hi Andrew,
>> 
>> [I reordered your answer for my response.]
>> 
>> On 2023-09-05 14:34, Andrew Josey wrote:
>>> 
>>> hi Alejandro
>>> 
>>> Apologies for the delay.
>> 
>> NP
>> 
>>> 
>>> Are you in touch with Michael Kerrisk?
>> 
>> Nope.
>> 
>>> It also appeared in discussions with Michael in 2020, that he had a way to convert the source format to man page format.
>> 
>> Yep, this is probably "the way":
>> 
>> <https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/docs/man-pages/man-pages-posix.git/tree/posix.py>
>> 
>>> In the past we have worked with him and made a permissions grant - which outlines the terms we are able to grant — these are limited
>>> by the copyright holders. 
>> 
>> I understand.  Would it be possible to suggest the copyright holders opening a
>> little bit more?  The C++ standard seems to be more open (it has a public git
>> repository with the source of the drafts) [1].  Maybe POSIX could do something
>> similar?    It would make contributions to the man-pages-posix project easier,
>> as contributors would be able to test the script with the original sources;
>> instead of just blindly trying something, and asking the maintainer to try it
>> with the secret sources.
> 
> Just to remind of what I'm asking:
> 
> -  A publicly accessible git repository containing (at least) the drafts
>   of the POSIX standard roff(7) sources, similar to
>   <https://github.com/cplusplus/draft> (which is not roff(7); I just
>   mean similar in that it's publicly available, and it contains ISO
>   standard draft sources).
> 
> I would include that repository as a git submodule of
> man-pages-posix.git, where I would maintain the translation script for
> building the manual pages.
> 
> Have a lovely day!
> Alex
> 
>> 
>> [1]:  <https://github.com/cplusplus/draft>
>> 
>> 
>> Cheers,
>> 
>> Alex
>> 
>> -- 
>> <http://www.alejandro-colomar.es/>
>> GPG key fingerprint: A9348594CE31283A826FBDD8D57633D441E25BB5
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> <https://www.alejandro-colomar.es/>

--------
Andrew Josey                 
VP, Standards & Certification,	The Open Group          
Email: a.josey@opengroup.org
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Re: POSIX manual pages

[Alejandro Colomar]

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On Wed, Jun 05, 2024 at 02:35:16PM GMT, Andrew Josey wrote:
> hi Alejandro

Hi Andrew,

> Unfortunately, we have no plans to move to a public git repository for managing the development of the standard.

Okay.

And would you be able to publish a tarball of the roff(7) source with
which I should generate the manual pages?

The thing I want to avoid is having to receive the roff(7) sources via
a private (or walled) channel (as Michael did, AFAIK).

If anyone is able to take those sources and regenerate the manual pages
with the script that I maintain, that's fine by me.

Have a lovely day!
Alex

> 
> regards
> Andrew

-- 
<https://www.alejandro-colomar.es/>

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