From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.4.0 (2014-02-07) on aws-us-west-2-korg-lkml-1.web.codeaurora.org Received: from vger.kernel.org (vger.kernel.org [23.128.96.18]) by smtp.lore.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id C1231C25B06 for ; Sun, 14 Aug 2022 14:49:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: (majordomo@vger.kernel.org) by vger.kernel.org via listexpand id S229731AbiHNOtS (ORCPT ); Sun, 14 Aug 2022 10:49:18 -0400 Received: from lindbergh.monkeyblade.net ([23.128.96.19]:34776 "EHLO lindbergh.monkeyblade.net" rhost-flags-OK-OK-OK-OK) by vger.kernel.org with ESMTP id S229558AbiHNOtR (ORCPT ); Sun, 14 Aug 2022 10:49:17 -0400 Received: from mout02.posteo.de (mout02.posteo.de [185.67.36.66]) by lindbergh.monkeyblade.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id AE14915828 for ; Sun, 14 Aug 2022 07:49:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from submission (posteo.de [185.67.36.169]) by mout02.posteo.de (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 007CE240103 for ; Sun, 14 Aug 2022 16:49:12 +0200 (CEST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=posteo.mx; s=2017; t=1660488553; bh=A5XhgeXVGEOJ1N3hWvMC6nMcdypnGuxDPLtW8Pa4eEI=; h=Date:Cc:To:Subject:From:From; b=H9Vt5rsgnfBjIqdmFmjQmbkcgZGB9I9Q2SWmOIhrzlSyBaE8wQ/Mb4f1Bv9HFWTS6 VNqQMQdOyQwqtaKNFF/x+fo1+eId/29lG09lRQ7fa6DiHRpwqAPZukmXxVe1XR0PvU xvebQD94nKW7MN8N+T5Sd258FGOtj2KXgcYtPz3boz6r+1h1KNvvIoXLmQMvnjjSiU IZlFAz1bqacVBawd/z/VZC19MfUM9AIQ4+uxjB+MV5R9Vn/d8e7FDFcGm+kH/Kbg47 Hg5AdFC/1KRu+aXUP5QJW8XtKPgmt2A6pOijXdI0ZekH25N1yjm2YyezF6eHw5T+xm 0572AYUVpW+aw== Received: from customer (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by submission (posteo.de) with ESMTPSA id 4M5L07431Kz9rxL; Sun, 14 Aug 2022 16:49:11 +0200 (CEST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Date: Sun, 14 Aug 2022 14:49:10 +0000 Message-Id: Cc: , "Alejandro Colomar" , , To: "Ingo Schwarze" Subject: Re: Standardize roff (was: *roff `\~` support) From: "DJ Chase" References: <20220729114506.1669153-4-stepnem@gmail.com> <20220729205823.lcy4fbezlw32owgu@illithid> <20220730161521+0200.203910-stepnem@gmail.com> <8edd0272-0c43-b5e7-9220-20094bb5ae23@gmail.com> <20220811201714.a2o432xhkyyyj6qi@illithid> <20220812221035.xd4udngmz5erht5p@illithid> In-Reply-To: Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-man@vger.kernel.org On Sun Aug 14, 2022 at 9:56 AM EDT, Ingo Schwarze wrote: > Hi, > > DJ Chase wrote on Sat, Aug 13, 2022 at 05:27:34PM +0000: > > > Have we ever considered a de jure *roff standard? > > No, i think that would be pure madness given the amount of working > time available in any of the roff projects. > > [=E2=80=A6] This is very sad to hear. > > It could also lead to more users & use cases because existing > > users could count on systems supporting certain features, so > > they could use *roff in more situations, which would lead to > > more exposure. > > You appear to massively overrate the importance end-users > typically attribute to standardization. That=E2=80=99s probably because *I* massively overrate the importance of standardization (I mean I literally carry a standards binder with me). Still, though, it=E2=80=99s rather annoying that end users =E2=80=94 especi= ally programmers =E2=80=94 don=E2=80=99t value standards as much. > > It=E2=80=99s ridiculous that *roff isn=E2=80=99t part of POSIX when it = was Unix=E2=80=99s > > killer feature. > > You are welcome to spend the many years required to change that. > But be aware that some standardization efforts that are part of > POSIX resulted in parts of the standard that are barely useable > for practical work. One famous example is make(1). > > Don't get me wrong: i think standardization is very nice to have, > should be taken very seriously when available, and provides some > value even when the standardization effort mostly failed, like in > the case of make(1). But standardization is absolutely not cheap. > To the contrary, it is usually significantly more expensive than > implementation and documentation. Would an informal de jure standard be of any use? Like how TOML just has a specification, but it=E2=80=99s somewhat usable as a standard because it= =E2=80=99s been pretty stable and because it=E2=80=99s written clearly enough. Cheers, --=20 DJ Chase They, Them, Theirs