From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mail.helgefjell.de (mail.helgefjell.de [142.132.201.35]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8BC8738F91 for ; Sat, 14 Dec 2024 06:17:25 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=142.132.201.35 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1734157049; cv=none; b=JHe2Hfk5/3m7S+lAOBkjWQ9PVcQpwK+QRlHIQDiNZ2Brmtd1QXAowHiy3Yiwwuz/yLkWv1o6IS4PwgEmVergXEjvhUcHcdJGqWGYx7bX1cJwP8mhBNgHevXZLsH977iHCUU6eHEKCg/1d2pgjLRS6gxNFDI00X2xPHCEHYx2tyo= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1734157049; c=relaxed/simple; bh=GFyzQd0hEM1H83pFztT36lrrvn6rXeLRUgCyyOhybQ4=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:References:Mime-Version: Content-Type:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To; b=Hkf8o/n2qvmgVqyrkGup700oBzxI9n3a4Xe4FSnRv5TVb2CnybskU72m89IZpVJyhBFoyYiKNggOeeNRNsGwGsVdL4dkY7EdngnOz3K0hThabtcXbrDwox9QHNkWN/AV+vpoXjB1aPY+4TkB9daQwFimJsjU+wjruSneRfWCJdg= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=helgefjell.de; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=helgefjell.de; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=helgefjell.de header.i=@helgefjell.de header.b=ca1W4kDz; arc=none smtp.client-ip=142.132.201.35 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=none (p=none dis=none) header.from=helgefjell.de Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=helgefjell.de Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=helgefjell.de header.i=@helgefjell.de header.b="ca1W4kDz" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=helgefjell.de; s=selector.helgefjell; t=1734156735; bh=w4nZDP6sDAyFOGIgWSPOL3+t4bWgK/Y2ra567GwMQ+0=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=ca1W4kDz/3cUynLQI7VKEZS9J4ybzcQyMBxlxVOFzilB9LLifocUL1zMltV4qXxEO sOcO7poHPSqEPk4D8BiX8DiFq34/cTtve/QbHmz0o7+YcLVJ5PIYjIm1OCuogVXvnW yuZ40LAQXyhGW5BDKchcxkdpK0ewabe5iI3lwk9fb2nWNoZlms0QaqbdmrC9xroodV RsnPiu2w/aPcYEAH7neIWhhArXWWtlnmAgzIKpowfp+RpCuATNrGUj+ymSy/Dby66w ncPHDx/V28m8TkICLdbj0Q9Jp4tVh9bHMkClLgc9W97EOaENaWx3gMm+i7ke/oN1bP JZOikVVhzcKew== Original-Subject: Re: names of ISO 8859 encodings Author: Helge Kreutzmann Original-Cc: Bruno Haible , Alejandro Colomar , linux-man@vger.kernel.org, Mario Blaettermann Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (uid 1002) by mail.helgefjell.de with local id 00000000000200C2.00000000675D21BF.00089C15; Sat, 14 Dec 2024 06:12:15 +0000 Date: Sat, 14 Dec 2024 06:12:15 +0000 From: Helge Kreutzmann To: "G. Branden Robinson" Cc: Bruno Haible , Alejandro Colomar , linux-man@vger.kernel.org, Mario Blaettermann Subject: Re: names of ISO 8859 encodings Message-ID: References: <3678665.hdfAi7Kttb@nimes> <20241214003716.gnockyne6qh7jpml@devuan> <20241214005654.vhpp4c46p7sw4zjr@illithid> Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-man@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="=_meinfjell-564245-1734156735-0001-2" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20241214005654.vhpp4c46p7sw4zjr@illithid> X-Public-Key-URL: http://www.helgefjell.de/data/debian_neu.asc X-homepage: http://www.helgefjell.de/debian This is a MIME-formatted message. If you see this text it means that your E-mail software does not support MIME-formatted messages. --=_meinfjell-564245-1734156735-0001-2 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello Branden, hello Bruno, hell Alejandro, Am Fri, Dec 13, 2024 at 06:56:54PM -0600 schrieb G. Branden Robinson: > At 2024-12-14T01:37:16+0100, Alejandro Colomar wrote: > > On Sat, Dec 14, 2024 at 01:23:09AM +0100, Bruno Haible wrote: > > > Commit 3ed1de0ddccb42bae4151c7225d3fddeab04ff43 should better > > > be reverted, IMO. The ISO organization or their *standards* can > > > be renamed to whatever names; what matters here is what the > > > *encoding* is commonly referred to. There is no "renaming" intended. It is just the proper name of the standard, which is often (probably because of sloppiness) forgotten. There are two organizations who joined forces to create these standards: ISO and IEC. Dropping half of them is not very nice and so far, precision is what is good about the (man) documentation. You should be able to rely on the documentation. So why should you stop short when giving credit and citing documents correctly? And yes, the correct name contains "ISO/IEC"[1]. Of course, how you name them in your day to day communication is up to you (and should be so), but in the documentation it should be correct. Disclaimer: I'm editor of ISO/IEC standards, but not in the field of character encondings. > > > The *encoding* names are standardized by IANA: > > > https://www.iana.org/assignments/character-sets/character-sets.xhtml > > > The first ISO 8859 encoding there has the name > > > ISO-8859-1 > > > or > > > ISO_8859-1 > > > and the first among these is the preferred MIME name. So, please, > > > in encoding names: > > > * revert the ISO -> ISO/IEC change, > > > * change the space after ISO to a dash/hyphen-minus. > > >=20 > > > Likewise (partially) for commit d5e5db91ece5955b21ae1aedc03ba1d56d3cf= 423. >=20 > Oy vey. Helge Kreutzmann submitted a similar bug report to groff and I > was planning to make the ISO -> ISO/IEC change to its man pages. I'm not going into the business of valuating which standards should be adhered to. But when referrring to the proper document the correct name should be given IMHO. > Also your point seems more strident than clear to me as regards the > encoding name. If I want to refer to character encoding _not_ in the > context of a machine-parsed MIME datum, I trust you're not going to tell > me I need to spell with an obnoxious hyphen-minus or underscore before > the standard number ("8859")...? My personal opinion is that correct typography is important, but on quick reading I probably would not spot the differences amongs the various dashes for example. So for me, having all the correct letters is important and of course, to copy and paste text (e.g. code) where necessary, even if that violates typography standards. And yes, I'm well aware that Branden and Donald Knuth (and successors) strive for well printed documents, and I'm glad for this. Greetings Helge [1] I carefully checked this. There are, of course, lots of standards purely from ISO (ISO 9001 comes to mind) and from IEC (e.g. IEC 62443). --=20 Dr. Helge Kreutzmann debian@helgefjell.de Dipl.-Phys. http://www.helgefjell.de/debian.php 64bit GNU powered gpg signed mail preferred Help keep free software "libre": http://www.ffii.de/ --=_meinfjell-564245-1734156735-0001-2 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCAAdFiEEbZZfteMW0gNUynuwQbqlJmgq5nAFAmddIboACgkQQbqlJmgq 5nBnNw/+JVbBQ2wcf+O8jkcDY/tD4ES7d5CZ93zmGpEF2T+iGm+IH4z/x52OoL6N OnMdCdtSrELLojgodIkn+cbzY4lYgfb5nvjhhXhrIkGvNBjfWj+kiUgcUNPoEjVJ k2ivvEvO3qItm/BNdlTkBm1ReycSwWo8wPJcx8uF2T1rOZf4fEjipXn0BqNWOQvD 0tjajlQ/5S5tRK1JduetxoJ1phbueq+jsV4tEDAnkBl95Iiq5AFacQVe+5LMlimC 2OrlZfzMyh2ooCjBXwNX4Ssxcc4pvocjrn1NK4GjvJg5forcv7MeuKzGfAjgIIMe 3WZZsicd4Fqt4Tg57y5hDU8x4mMZcgYvw+6RA/1Z6SV4vrR2Vgo0YIazYBh3gKHM tMxjt67xRLJpqIPTCAfFgl9uusx+2CIwsDXdcDhWOy0zLT8rGShp5rUAErM2Q0V+ AIR+TQgAxhHuH2R2r5W3ceBdZ57GOyT3u4JLRGRujVGIPFwqP0BFRKKk1K8LlX0R 81D53M7ShD9jwz0I3zCwMIGPB1dYZ4LyxoaBbCNf9rlz2Onxyda/rHh9VOfY/6Mo hTMPkADSeNJeQR8K7AeMGCA2vlkY75bBJzT0h9b4mJoR3Mk3Vg9xAepmzF5+lqeB AU4dOS4bCF/PI8+WBy8CWWhM3VCzQDr8Iq6Eige6Vvlq4nDHFwU= =i8iM -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --=_meinfjell-564245-1734156735-0001-2--