Issue in man page boot.7

Issue in man page boot.7

[Helge Kreutzmann]

Without further ado, the following was found:

Issue:    This is true only on x86 and Lilo is probably not much used anymore; also systemd has its own (?) bootloader

"In Linux, the OS loader is often either B<lilo>(8)  or B<grub>(8)."

Re: Issue in man page boot.7

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi Helge,

On 3/11/23 18:13, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:
> Without further ado, the following was found:
> 
> Issue:    This is true only on x86 and Lilo is probably not much used anymore; also systemd has its own (?) bootloader

Please propose a fix for the wording.

Thanks,

Alex

> 
> "In Linux, the OS loader is often either B<lilo>(8)  or B<grub>(8)."

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Re: Issue in man page boot.7

[Helge Kreutzmann]

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Hello Alex,
On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 12:31:37AM +0100, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> On 3/11/23 18:13, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:
> > Without further ado, the following was found:
> > 
> > Issue:    This is true only on x86 and Lilo is probably not much used anymore; also systemd has its own (?) bootloader
> 
> Please propose a fix for the wording.

> > "In Linux, the OS loader is often either B<lilo>(8)  or B<grub>(8)."

I'm no subject matter experts (contrary to you), we are translators
observering potential (!) incorrect statements.

In another bug report one or two years ago, the last remaining lilo
"maintainer" told me the project is *dead* and he is just the last one
answering e-mails. And some distros stopped shipping lilo already; I
personally haven't used it for decades.

I don't know much about the boot loader from systemd. I basically just
translated the man page systemd-boot(7). 

Having said this, the most straigtforward fix could be:

either B<lilo>(8)  or B<grub>(8) → B<grub>(8)


Or you could additionally add more content:

Other boot loaders exist, like B<systemd-boot>(7) and the
old B<lilo>(8).


Greetings

           Helge

-- 
      Dr. Helge Kreutzmann                     debian@helgefjell.de
           Dipl.-Phys.                   http://www.helgefjell.de/debian.php
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Re: Issue in man page boot.7

[Helge Kreutzmann]

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Hello Alejandro,
On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 12:31:37AM +0100, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> On 3/11/23 18:13, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:
> > Without further ado, the following was found:
> > 
> > Issue:    This is true only on x86 and Lilo is probably not much used anymore; also systemd has its own (?) bootloader

Lilo has just been removed from Debian, so to my knowledge only Mageia
ships it.

> Please propose a fix for the wording.

Ok. To be conservative I would do the simple change:

> > "In Linux, the OS loader is often either B<lilo>(8)  or B<grub>(8)."

In Linux, the OS loader is often B<grub>(8).

Greetings

        Helge

-- 
      Dr. Helge Kreutzmann                     debian@helgefjell.de
           Dipl.-Phys.                   http://www.helgefjell.de/debian.php
        64bit GNU powered                     gpg signed mail preferred
           Help keep free software "libre": http://www.ffii.de/

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Re: Issue in man page boot.7

[Oskari Pirhonen]

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On Sat, Jun 17, 2023 at 13:11:29 +0200, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:
> Hello Alejandro,
> On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 12:31:37AM +0100, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> > On 3/11/23 18:13, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:
> > > Without further ado, the following was found:
> > > 
> > > Issue:    This is true only on x86 and Lilo is probably not much used anymore; also systemd has its own (?) bootloader
> 
> Lilo has just been removed from Debian, so to my knowledge only Mageia
> ships it.
> 

FWIW, Gentoo still has LILO in the repos. This doesn't change the fact
that it probably does not see much use anymore. Definitely not enough to
warrant being mentioned as "is often". Maybe a historical note, if
anything.

- Oskari

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Re: Issue in man page boot.7

[Alejandro Colomar]

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On 6/18/23 22:05, Oskari Pirhonen wrote:
> On Sat, Jun 17, 2023 at 13:11:29 +0200, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:
>> Hello Alejandro,
>> On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 12:31:37AM +0100, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
>>> On 3/11/23 18:13, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:
>>>> Without further ado, the following was found:
>>>>
>>>> Issue:    This is true only on x86 and Lilo is probably not much used anymore; also systemd has its own (?) bootloader
>>
>> Lilo has just been removed from Debian, so to my knowledge only Mageia
>> ships it.
>>
> 
> FWIW, Gentoo still has LILO in the repos. This doesn't change the fact
> that it probably does not see much use anymore. Definitely not enough to
> warrant being mentioned as "is often". Maybe a historical note, if
> anything.
> 
> - Oskari
Hi!

Thanks for that.  I've fixed it with this patch.

Cheers,
Alex

---
 From d5e4e25e5c1a251dd503f11c516bf3d081eef080 Mon Sep 17 00:00:00 2001
From: Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org>
Date: Sat, 8 Jul 2023 17:34:30 +0200
Subject: [PATCH] boot.7: LILO is not often used anymore

On 6/18/23 22:05, Oskari Pirhonen wrote:
 > On Sat, Jun 17, 2023 at 13:11:29 +0200, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:
 >> Hello Alejandro,
 >> On Sun, Mar 12, 2023 at 12:31:37AM +0100, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
 >>> On 3/11/23 18:13, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:
 >>>> Without further ado, the following was found:
 >>>>
 >>>> Issue:    This is true only on x86 and Lilo is probably not much
 >>>>           used anymore; also systemd has its own (?) bootloader
 >>
 >> Lilo has just been removed from Debian, so to my knowledge only
 >> Mageia ships it.
 >>
 >
 > FWIW, Gentoo still has LILO in the repos.  This doesn't change the
 > fact that it probably does not see much use anymore.  Definitely not
 > enough to warrant being mentioned as "is often".  Maybe a historical
 > note, if anything.

Reported-by: Helge Kreutzmann <debian@helgefjell.de>
Reported-by: Oskari Pirhonen <xxc3ncoredxx@gmail.com>
Cc: Mario Blaettermann <mario.blaettermann@gmail.com>
Signed-off-by: Alejandro Colomar <alx@kernel.org>
---
  man7/boot.7 | 8 ++++----
  1 file changed, 4 insertions(+), 4 deletions(-)

diff --git a/man7/boot.7 b/man7/boot.7
index dab4a1aac..b57f5a1bb 100644
--- a/man7/boot.7
+++ b/man7/boot.7
@@ -82,10 +82,10 @@ a primary OS loader and a secondary OS loader; this 
secondary
  OS loader may be located within a larger portion of persistent
  storage, such as a disk partition.
  .PP
-In Linux, the OS loader is often either
-.BR lilo (8)
-or
-.BR grub (8).
+In Linux, the OS loader is often
+.BR grub (8)
+(an alternative is
+.BR lilo (8)).
  .SS Kernel
  When the kernel is loaded, it initializes various components of
  the computer and operating system; each portion of software
-- 
2.40.1


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Issue in man page boot.7

[Helge Kreutzmann]

Without further ado, the following was found:

Issue 1:  runlevel 2 → run-level 2
Issue 2:  sendmail → B<sendmail>(8)

"To define the starting or stopping order within the same run-level, the name "
"of a link contains an B<order-number>.  Also, for clarity, the name of a "
"link usually ends with the name of the service to which it refers.  For "
"example, the link I</etc/rc2.d/S80sendmail> starts the sendmail service on "
"runlevel 2.  This happens after I</etc/rc2.d/S12syslog> is run but before I</"
"etc/rc2.d/S90xfs> is run."

Re: Issue in man page boot.7

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi Helge,

On 3/11/23 18:13, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:
> Without further ado, the following was found:
> 
> Issue 1:  runlevel 2 → run-level 2
> Issue 2:  sendmail → B<sendmail>(8)

Fixed:
<https://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/docs/man-pages/man-pages.git/commit/?id=ffac8276df958046d6b38ef21829f7c8d39eca19>

Cheers,

Alex

> 
> "To define the starting or stopping order within the same run-level, the name "
> "of a link contains an B<order-number>.  Also, for clarity, the name of a "
> "link usually ends with the name of the service to which it refers.  For "
> "example, the link I</etc/rc2.d/S80sendmail> starts the sendmail service on "
> "runlevel 2.  This happens after I</etc/rc2.d/S12syslog> is run but before I</"
> "etc/rc2.d/S90xfs> is run."

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Issue in man page boot.7

[Helge Kreutzmann]

Without further ado, the following was found:

Issue 1:  runlevel 2 → run-level 2
Issue 2:  sendmail → B<sendmail>(8)

"To define the starting or stopping order within the same run-level, the name "
"of a link contains an B<order-number>.  Also, for clarity, the name of a "
"link usually ends with the name of the service to which it refers.  For "
"example, the link I</etc/rc2.d/S80sendmail> starts the sendmail service on "
"runlevel 2.  This happens after I</etc/rc2.d/S12syslog> is run but before I</"
"etc/rc2.d/S90xfs> is run."

Re: Issue in man page boot.7

[Alejandro Colomar]

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Hi Helge,

On 1/22/23 20:31, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:
> Without further ado, the following was found:
> 
> Issue 1:  runlevel 2 → run-level 2
> Issue 2:  sendmail → B<sendmail>(8)
> 
> "To define the starting or stopping order within the same run-level, the name"
> "of a link contains an B<order-number>.  Also, for clarity, the name of a"
> "link usually ends with the name of the service to which it refers.  For"
> "example, the link I</etc/rc2.d/S80sendmail> starts the sendmail service on"
> "runlevel 2.  This happens after I</etc/rc2.d/S12syslog> is run but before I</"
> "etc/rc2.d/S90xfs> is run."

I believe the fix would be to use runlevel everywhere.  run-level is not correct 
under any point of view, if I'm correct.  It should be runlevel for a new term 
formed specifically for programming purposes, or run level for normal English.

Branden, can you confirm?

Cheers,

Alex

-- 
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Re: Issue in man page boot.7

[G. Branden Robinson]

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Hi Alex,

At 2023-01-22T22:22:02+0100, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> On 1/22/23 20:31, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:
> > Without further ado, the following was found:
> > 
> > Issue 1:  runlevel 2 → run-level 2

> I believe the fix would be to use runlevel everywhere.  run-level is
> not correct under any point of view, if I'm correct.

It would be correct if it were used attributively, to modify a
subsequent noun, for example.  "I was able to gain root with some
run-level shenanigans," for example.

> It should be runlevel for a new term formed specifically for
> programming purposes, or run level for normal English.
> 
> Branden, can you confirm?

Only the latter half of that.  There are no rules in English grammar for
forming terms specifically for programming purposes.

You may be thinking of programming languages that don't permit spaces in
identifiers (for good reason).

For example,

int runlevel;

is fine.  To drop this variable name as-is into prose is to mistake the
implementation for the concept, or to confuse the map with the
territory, as the saying goes.

Man pages are _in_ normal English, except for quotations or displayed
examples of code.

I therefore recommend "run level".

Regards,
Branden

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Re: Issue in man page boot.7

[Helge Kreutzmann]

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Hello Alex,
hello Branden,
On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 12:54:23AM -0600, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> At 2023-01-22T22:22:02+0100, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> > On 1/22/23 20:31, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:
> > > Without further ado, the following was found:
> > > 
> > > Issue 1:  runlevel 2 → run-level 2
> 
> > I believe the fix would be to use runlevel everywhere.  run-level is
> > not correct under any point of view, if I'm correct.

> I therefore recommend "run level".

I'm fine with either version. Currently, it is mixing both, so it
should "just" be unifrom (at least throught linux man pages).

Greetings

         Helge

-- 
      Dr. Helge Kreutzmann                     debian@helgefjell.de
           Dipl.-Phys.                   http://www.helgefjell.de/debian.php
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Re: Issue in man page boot.7

[G. Branden Robinson]

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Hi Helge,

At 2023-01-23T18:47:42+0100, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:
> On Mon, Jan 23, 2023 at 12:54:23AM -0600, G. Branden Robinson wrote:
> > At 2023-01-22T22:22:02+0100, Alejandro Colomar wrote:
> > > On 1/22/23 20:31, Helge Kreutzmann wrote:
> > > > Without further ado, the following was found:
> > > > 
> > > > Issue 1:  runlevel 2 → run-level 2
> > 
> > > I believe the fix would be to use runlevel everywhere.  run-level is
> > > not correct under any point of view, if I'm correct.
> 
> > I therefore recommend "run level".
> 
> I'm fine with either version. Currently, it is mixing both, so it
> should "just" be unifrom (at least throught linux man pages).

Agreed.  Fortunately, it appears that boot(7) is the only page in the
Linux man-pages project that needs revision; no other document uses the
term in the forms I checked for.

$ git grep 'run level' || echo no matches
no matches
$ git grep 'runlevel' || echo no matches
man7/boot.7:.BR runlevel (8).
man7/boot.7:runlevel 2.
man7/boot.7:.BR runlevel (8),
$ git grep 'run.level' || echo no matches
man7/boot.7:program is instructed to enter a particular \fIrun-level\fR, giving
man7/boot.7:for some usage; each run-level is associated with a set of services
man7/boot.7:(for example, run-level \fBS\fR is \fIsingle-user\fR mode,
man7/boot.7:and run-level \fB2\fR entails running most network services).
man7/boot.7:run-level via
man7/boot.7:and query the current run-level via
man7/boot.7:To make specific scripts start/stop at specific run-levels and in a
man7/boot.7:To define the starting or stopping order within the same run-level,
man7/boot.7:To manage these links is to manage the boot order and run-levels;

The cross reference to the systemd "runlevel" man page of course should
be kept as-is.

Regards,
Branden

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Issue in man page boot.7

[Helge Kreutzmann]

Without further ado, the following was found:

Issue:    This is true only on x86 and Lilo is probably not much used anymore

"In Linux, the OS loader is often either B<lilo>(8)  or B<grub>(8)."
msgstr ""
"Unter Linux ist das Betriebssystemladeprogramm oft entweder B<lilo>(8) oder "
"B<grub>(8)."