From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from smtp.kernel.org (aws-us-west-2-korg-mail-1.web.codeaurora.org [10.30.226.201]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3291876C6C for ; Tue, 20 Feb 2024 17:48:34 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=10.30.226.201 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1708451315; cv=none; b=d6GPet6EQs/uWveshZ3ONj0BPQQe80TSMuVbecIZOBpAhzNXgxMRl/29ON40AzeGKAi68GBHQ3l+dwF0GQHfhi2nP3BVKATsdAJypmAbaKUymjSZZTfldEgeuLNHMcfxZaogHceQk0X8kxLC8WuSYA+a5ldc9YNxIIQYGCxHKBQ= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1708451315; c=relaxed/simple; bh=zJp3vS9IFZpLp41X4yE22yGcy/jVm5ag8n+FDRpjxx8=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:References:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To; b=hb7Xnn5QTiVgTmGfEreZTVeddaXIRNvztE2mHVjzbb3Q83+XI3q/kosMg0xg3i3TH0pZyyD8HFZMZ+gWFxXSVJmt1wXLr4cYeyqOXIpDjwukK+OepW6PtADSvIfO6N70Dp8V/lZ0ZGxACJOgByUd43a6RmvrMA41oCoYw8o3bh0= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kernel.org header.i=@kernel.org header.b=Eq+Dq4dd; arc=none smtp.client-ip=10.30.226.201 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kernel.org header.i=@kernel.org header.b="Eq+Dq4dd" Received: by smtp.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 7186BC433F1; Tue, 20 Feb 2024 17:48:33 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=kernel.org; s=k20201202; t=1708451314; bh=zJp3vS9IFZpLp41X4yE22yGcy/jVm5ag8n+FDRpjxx8=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=Eq+Dq4ddtYOaagVCtc0tEKogstFJkyMgkIIcmq/nRSIShOwQdftKaZkvsa2t/3quR cakSLqi5ctlzRAX6v3dHJuuq9pcYBPKJfctCmJK+ER72lkNQW2A1UWY6YA89q0EPsj LM8lPrhLijFf2nsqSUvY/v+JVqmiqZHbY4Kbh143rQEgBwDUtWgCzLg7wRsFJxqbsJ 4u+3wjAO+6yxcaF9AcGIhFFtFTLA7D1bkbr0kcKsXnBw24OFYRwvvRaPk9tkhXuRvU BKEHQ1dYyikAi+zZIYlPlPHb1IB70cLJbkdlVnvVS+9YfMiIt9qSqeQwQX+aAUb0nH 7Sy2vnFCDFfGQ== Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 18:48:24 +0100 From: Alejandro Colomar To: "G. Branden Robinson" Cc: Alexander Ofitserov , linux-man@vger.kernel.org, dutyrok@altlinux.org, kovalev@altlinux.org Subject: Re: [PATCH] delete_module.2: Update man to actual syscall behaviour Message-ID: References: <20240220092144.140251-1-oficerovas@altlinux.org> <20240220132015.pjqlf66odcgqdtqv@illithid> <20240220163611.4hfyds2jqfegjacg@illithid> Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-man@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="1SIPVUFnKKRt5jOb" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20240220163611.4hfyds2jqfegjacg@illithid> --1SIPVUFnKKRt5jOb Content-Type: text/plain; protected-headers=v1; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2024 18:48:24 +0100 From: Alejandro Colomar To: "G. Branden Robinson" Cc: Alexander Ofitserov , linux-man@vger.kernel.org, dutyrok@altlinux.org, kovalev@altlinux.org Subject: Re: [PATCH] delete_module.2: Update man to actual syscall behaviour Hi Branden, On Tue, Feb 20, 2024 at 10:36:11AM -0600, G. Branden Robinson wrote: > Hi Alex, >=20 > At 2024-02-20T16:24:01+0100, Alejandro Colomar wrote: > > [Off-topic; just language curiosity; feel free to ignore] >=20 > [no worries] I was preventing other innocent readers, who might not be aware of how much we enjoy such converations. :) > > That's also taught in Spanish high school. The Spanish word is > > "actual" too, which means current. >=20 > Oy vey. I've got more training in Spanish than any other non-English > language, and never hit that one. >=20 > I raised this point because it was (mis-)used repeatedly in groff > documentation and I had to clean it up. It was then that I learned that > this specific solecism is frequent in technical writing where there is > multinational collaboration. And you're probably right. [...] > > Some other dictionaries don't acknowledge this meaning, and claim it's > > a mistake. Do you know who is right about it? I fear some dictionaries > > might be ahistorically removing that meaning. Even if that meaning > > wasn't the main one, it probably was correct some time in the future. Huh! I meant s/future/past/ > > I'd like to see some investigation showing history of that meaning > > before claiming it's wrong. I rather call out the Cambridge dictionary > > and others as being wrong. >=20 > I'm not sufficiently credentialed to argue with published dictionaries, > but I will offer that the use of "present" in these definitions has to > be understood in context, and note should be take of the one we're using > here. When discussing software, implementations sometimes don't match > specifications--documented behavior may not be reflected in code. >=20 > So when we encounter the phrase "in the actual version", one can infer > that a description is being offered in contrast to some non-actual > version; perhaps some change of intention occurred in the passage from > design document or bug report to the code as written. >=20 > But, in my experience, most of the time when we see "in the actual > version", all the (typically non-native) speaker is trying to impart is > a temporal statement about the present (or near-present) situation, not > drawing a contrast between intentions elsewhere document and actuality. Agree. For documentation, we better write unambiguous English, and not just correct English. >=20 > Returning to your examples: >=20 > > 3. In action at the time being; now exiting; present; as the > > actual situation of the country. >=20 > Contrast: >=20 > "The Central Committee of the Communist Party reported that per capita > intake of nutritional calories in Ukraine in 1933 was 13% higher than in > England." >=20 > If a historian were to offer some perspective on that claim, their use > of the word "actual" would be contrasting reality with assertion more > strongly than it would be nailing down a temporal datum. >=20 > Similarly: >=20 > > 5: being or existing at the present moment; "the ship's actual > > position is 22 miles due south of Key West" >=20 > "The ship's reported position was 5 miles southwest of Bah=C3=ADa de los > Cochinos." >=20 > The contrast between "reported" and "actual" here is a more > significant factor than "at the present moment". Given enough time, a > ship could move from one location to the other, just as an API can > change over time; but when we use "actual", our emphasis is not on > temporal matters even though we often need some temporal information to > decide the truth of a claim. >=20 > Does this clarify? Yup. "actual" may be actually correct as a synonymous of "current", but it's more ambiguous actually than it might have been a long time ago, so we better avoid it in documentation. :) Have a lovely day! Alex > For more along these lines, I highly recommend Jeremy Gardner's document > "Misused English words and expressions in EU Publications". >=20 > https://www.eca.europa.eu/other%20publications/en_terminology_publication= /en_terminology_publication.pdf >=20 > Regards, > Branden --=20 Looking for a remote C programming job at the moment. --1SIPVUFnKKRt5jOb Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCgAdFiEE6jqH8KTroDDkXfJAnowa+77/2zIFAmXU5egACgkQnowa+77/ 2zLrIg//alKTW7HfiM8XZq0j84/q8XhKn4Xi1OXZduz6UWjB6GpMCPMSJzbXZf7D IzLX0WDSpFrxv4i7N8THo+gU8G0Zs3ZLGuT8gCkKs66jFu/2S7RGWWs8ISQBhLLP LEOFeEeqlGP7/XSll4XJOO6SPtx5hc/DF0BHlKAqlMY/btObwbis6lP3GaRcyl50 syrmcyyZq/WPpgrFdlw/8vapMgFFCI2M7Pj7HeqFsJUppVAp/a9QAxtznJ7S7gJ9 s0hbHKD3E28jSrVoeNAdkMFEEUMw1Kcl/GR4ooa8WHHEfskTa+VQyC1t6chPXz4Y x9aODSaor0gtFe8mY4UbsaWwDvoPGCvHP6Ftab+eRPBWDaIj0guFjoMcSsh35zHB YFns03bnHnVuPW89wmOeRkOkc1kIoH/83w/6OUD06jMmU7kFPTk0UK2G94mHwSm4 2XeqMGkBchFfwbErjFMRr16YtLMVBiJrRphjP/CeaetnQElOAgs1MAPSNN23Jvkf Rm2VVPJ77OnKnL4R1p/S9Y8Wv8Ms1LcGOhGAliGDcIQlV/kIeftqZECXe9fOe8lv gz7limEnTUkr3/dzFan3Wcmmugf19OK3vlRJ9lXyiLDEfUMeBzjToNiwlttPegfY DDHEma3EFiH6Bj/lyKJYH5OOnOFQ3nWEjvG476+A9tvYnhVI40g= =LffR -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --1SIPVUFnKKRt5jOb--