From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from smtp.kernel.org (aws-us-west-2-korg-mail-1.web.codeaurora.org [10.30.226.201]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 94D4B2A8DA for ; Mon, 8 Apr 2024 08:31:45 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=10.30.226.201 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1712565106; cv=none; b=qTA1HqBm/xqp7iTjpwRL0EjLayzTU3zJU0C/2mQGjZKp+h+eTHD1PDWqdffHCpTXeZc9M+ZfgpA+2lTnU/NNpr9aVdnfhaut52BSyQ2ZRLPmMeDNauzKL+Qg/easUy02LNMn9EFjjLtl3x+R9JyauIVXLxojQjOu1cmgc+dHWpQ= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1712565106; c=relaxed/simple; bh=Ttdf0gGdqFQaYzO0m1y4gc7/nA3kkvB59BFB3y4oNHY=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:References:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To; b=Caf6ZX9abAvmVB70tJZiCY1+64gyShtiPfOx1juYbZ217XCVAk6oZZeT1Kvez1YqL0h6o7CrwvA2boX54T5tkGRzVRXxUQHz9YF8CZJzgUYVKkO5NonxgOA0jhoETbmFRFAqETz7rVfjaVH6McGjQs5OusGyenCgAma8KlX3Vpg= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kernel.org header.i=@kernel.org header.b=np7O375B; arc=none smtp.client-ip=10.30.226.201 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kernel.org header.i=@kernel.org header.b="np7O375B" Received: by smtp.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4BB19C433F1; Mon, 8 Apr 2024 08:31:44 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=kernel.org; s=k20201202; t=1712565105; bh=Ttdf0gGdqFQaYzO0m1y4gc7/nA3kkvB59BFB3y4oNHY=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=np7O375BctU4AdJpk1fZhrhFAPPHk8Akrw2KXY9UtV6SalvW3GzEdYPSvxylZY0ob FE0+tx866dB9vGbJqRIsJiiDre1gEt1hSi87g++vPBJDXTiRCk9h32gwJFHv5o/5Cg XCttQsYTwalS5F+fNGEFCbSQPYPl7FgChVMTDrA8Hr+OB+eCGBPkL5wcSYSZBUcwEK HVRWbV21ZUxiuTwBGn2wVyXEs8GZJKvPYdnYPlMABpplaFbfiYpmyQ+BYxVJ71Y9J8 hJSxTdatCVjYQSRa/WJiDpejv83m6QgSvKQUi48vCuTZX1I8Auav1V8zz6J3011NqJ QFqRMCV6S4ToQ== Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2024 10:31:32 +0200 From: Alejandro Colomar To: Paul Eggert Cc: "G. Branden Robinson" , Time zone mailing list , dickey@his.com, linux-man@vger.kernel.org, groff@gnu.org Subject: Re: [PATCH v2] tzfile.5: Fix indentation Message-ID: References: <20240317124350.96716-1-alx@kernel.org> <20240317190642.qozzibfnfrqbhued@illithid> <0d79c040-ee97-4e1b-a478-d4fceafb23ad@cs.ucla.edu> Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-man@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="i4B239O1T3rgnbq0" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: --i4B239O1T3rgnbq0 Content-Type: text/plain; protected-headers=v1; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2024 10:31:32 +0200 From: Alejandro Colomar To: Paul Eggert Cc: "G. Branden Robinson" , Time zone mailing list , dickey@his.com, linux-man@vger.kernel.org, groff@gnu.org Subject: Re: [PATCH v2] tzfile.5: Fix indentation Hi Paul, Branden, On Sun, Apr 07, 2024 at 11:33:38PM -0700, Paul Eggert wrote: > On 2024-03-18 01:35, Alejandro Colomar wrote: >=20 > > Hmm, while Ossana's indents might be a bit excessive, TZDB's might be > > too short. Maybe I would RS 4 spaces instead of 2 before the tag. >=20 > That'd be too long for the nroff case. The nroff case is a bit too long > already. It looks like the following in the current TZDB version: >=20 > The goals of this section are: >=20 > o to help TZif writers output files that avoid common pitfalls in > older or buggy TZif readers, >=20 > o to help TZif readers avoid common pitfalls when reading files > generated by future TZif writers, and >=20 > ... and if there were four spaces (instead of two) around the bullets, it= 'd > be too much white space. >=20 > Of course we could indent more or less depending on whether it's nroff or > troff, but that's complexity I'd rather avoid. Yeah, I was thinking only of the typeset version. And I agree in not wanting the complexity of a conditional. > > I kind of do like pre-indenting bullets; in some cases > > I've felt that having the bullets not indented was sub-par, but wasn't > > convinced enough to go and pre-indent them, since that would add > > complexity, and also allow less room for text in terminals. >=20 > Glad you like preindenting. As you say, once one does it, one should use > less white space. I'll think about it. Maybe I add some preindent to the Linux man-pages. > > > There are other things not to like about the man page PDF output. The= man > > > pages are confused about when to use constant-width fonts vs varying-= width > > > fonts. > >=20 > > Can you please point to an example of this? I try to be consistent, but > > probably there are still cases that I haven't fixed due to lack of time. >=20 > See the attached, which is the output of "groff -man -Tpdf zdump.8". >=20 > First, I had to do shenanigans like this: >=20 > .ie \n(.g .ds - \f(CR-\fP > .el .ds - \- >=20 > and later use \*- every time I wanted to specify a zdump option like -v. > Using plain "-v" in zdump.8 doesn't work, because it generates a hyphen in > troff mode and hyphens are too narow. Using "\-v" doesn't work, because it > generates a mathematical minus sign in the PDF, which differs from "-", > which means you can't easily search for "-v" in the PDF. Hmmm. I use "\-v" in the Linux man-pages, and it works, in the sense that you can search for "-v" with ^F in the PDF viewer. See It works for me in all the readers I tried, which are firefox(1), atril(1), and okular(1). In what systems does it not work for you? > So I have to use > "\*-v" with the above code. And this means the "-" is in a different font > than the "v". >=20 > On page 2, there are some examples in constant width font to make things > line up. But shouldn't we be using constant width font for all code? That= 's > what the rest of the world is doing nowadays (or, if you want to be fancy= , a > sans serif font that stands out in a different way). Hmmm, with a set of macros C CR RC CI and IC to use them it could be a good idea. Branden, how does it look to you? I don't think CB and BC would be necessary. > But Linux man page > fonts are still stuck with a style defined by the limitations of the 1970s > C/A/T phototypesetter > and are using Times Bold and Times Italic to refer to program and file > names. >=20 > Also, it should be ragged right, in both nroff and troff output. > Right-adjusted text looks nicer but is less functional, and man pages sho= uld > be all about function. (See the reference below.) You can probably configure that in man.local, no? I know at least you can disable hyphenation, which solves most of the functional problems. > > > The lines are too long to read comfortably; this is inherent to how a > > > good font squeezes in more text. > >=20 > > I'm not sure I understand this. Do you mean there are too many letters > > in a line in the Linux man-pages PDF or too few? >=20 > Too many. I'm getting about 100 characters per line in the PDF, which is = on > the extreme high end of the usual recommendations (it should be closer to= 60 > characters per line). Completely agree. CC +=3D groff. Branden, do you think we can fix that somehow? Literally, the first thing I thought about the Linux man-pages PDF when I saw it was "Lines are so long that it's hard for me to read them.". Well, it was the second; I first saw the front page, which was beautiful; that thought was the first one when I say the first page after the front. > There's no single answer here of course (opinions do > differ), but the man page lines are pretty clearly too long in the PDFs. > See: >=20 > Nanavati AA, Bias RG. Optimal line length in reading - a literature revie= w. > Visible Language. 2005;39(2):120-44. > https://journals.uc.edu/index.php/vl/article/view/5765 Hmmmm. Very interesting. > > If we compare > > > > with the PDF you attached to your email, you can see there are less > > words in a line in the Linux man-pages PDF than in yours. Also, your > > PDF has slightly less margins. >=20 > They're pretty close, and both have too many characters per line. Yup. Have a lovely day! 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