From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from smtp.kernel.org (aws-us-west-2-korg-mail-1.web.codeaurora.org [10.30.226.201]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id F1A133D544 for ; Sun, 18 Jan 2026 01:51:58 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=10.30.226.201 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1768701119; cv=none; b=bJYqOcOUPm5/73Gz5lQhqBvQtV5a4rYlwu+3Wh6furmxmL5iyKaaElBatZdCNUax8j2NmZ05COroveSuLTJuLPUJf5yqmLmKkVUxxumy5Brp/0FZbZFOudMrr9cjg9fjv67mhdk/kc3KK/c6ADBE+qq5kg9Y5mShQMnOLsuOHXg= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1768701119; c=relaxed/simple; bh=eV3Q6T2JEgOzluzffs9NM85K6prK/zvLqJbQ0SV+5eM=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:References:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To; b=nPQ3X7cJaY68nk/gznXn4mYsyq51Aaoaokzag3rMjddnM0cWKVmADhe9RN5T3EcSdduhpUQQWJ0y3RI7SNW/A3C00yAA9HbmqGVzs25O8tODEQIEJkqBN1blAbz/m3yzy/8Bq+NHtD2EASyCjyPdMZFn1GZI/OV8KsBQGXEUU0I= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kernel.org header.i=@kernel.org header.b=p+N9liiG; arc=none smtp.client-ip=10.30.226.201 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kernel.org header.i=@kernel.org header.b="p+N9liiG" Received: by smtp.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id A63DFC4CEF7; Sun, 18 Jan 2026 01:51:57 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=kernel.org; s=k20201202; t=1768701118; bh=eV3Q6T2JEgOzluzffs9NM85K6prK/zvLqJbQ0SV+5eM=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To:From; b=p+N9liiGUPpGhFN7jphN6K9F81pR5Resm3oexhQJZDMdyLVVFO7th3F2UBD9phz0B mQbfWSwL/BBbgUbfWl6vEv9iGY/dQaNYTngW8x5+z+FOTeyvn/scMWrdLU4E6N9y4U fdlMDHl8Crf/XI4kFY5ypEiUoC+gL7EDndNk4KaZgfwk2PQQJawjJtxEKbEaPuRiZP u/hv0/2eV3QF0wsI4mw0fgqW+m21JlzKB1LiADFN2QQ39P2sVowG5k4/GnTFfaXho4 zkDQ+gUqAE0b0qfB1pqmfbXzxHs7hEl67iWbWjueC+F4gP0NnAVU5nDAXBbnUrZILT hSkeOIblZxVeQ== Date: Sun, 18 Jan 2026 02:51:55 +0100 From: Alejandro Colomar To: =?utf-8?B?0L3QsNCx?= Cc: Seth McDonald , linux-man@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: Chronological order of BSD, SV, and POSIX.1 Message-ID: References: <4dhcmq7vwbkiw5ik4nivsdli2pfb7d3xchchshgyz7cejw7sqk@tarta.nabijaczleweli.xyz> Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-man@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="jcp3mdcjpkvh44yi" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: --jcp3mdcjpkvh44yi Content-Type: text/plain; protected-headers=v1; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Alejandro Colomar To: =?utf-8?B?0L3QsNCx?= Cc: Seth McDonald , linux-man@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: Chronological order of BSD, SV, and POSIX.1 Message-ID: References: <4dhcmq7vwbkiw5ik4nivsdli2pfb7d3xchchshgyz7cejw7sqk@tarta.nabijaczleweli.xyz> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: [CC +=3D linux-man] Hi, On Sat, Jan 17, 2026 at 10:05:30PM +0100, =D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=B1 wrote: > Not off-rip, and, as noted, I don't consider viewing the domain > from this angle useful. >=20 > But, illustratively, > SUSv1 self-IDs as System Interface Definitions Issue 4, Version 2 > SUSv2 self-IDs as System Interface Definitions Issue 5 > SUSv3 self-IDs as The Open Group Base Specifications Issue 6, IEEE Std = 1003.1, 2004 Edition > QED Hmmm, and XPGv3 and XPGv4 are Issue 3 and 4. So, SVID 3 forked away (now it makes sense why SVID 2 says "Issue 2" but SVID 3 says "Third Edition"), and then possibly merged back later. :) I've applied some small patches: commit f17241696722c472c5fcd06ee3b7af7afc3f1082 Author: Alejandro Colomar Date: Sun Jan 18 02:12:29 2026 +0100 man/man7/standards.7: XPGv3 and XPGv4 were Issue 3 and Issue 4 =20 Cc: =D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=B1 Cc: Seth McDonald Signed-off-by: Alejandro Colomar diff --git a/man/man7/standards.7 b/man/man7/standards.7 index ad244067f..7f1ad3ca4 100644 --- a/man/man7/standards.7 +++ b/man/man7/standards.7 @@ -295,11 +295,15 @@ .SS POSIX and SUS .B XPG3 Released in 1989, this was the first release of the X/Open Portability Guide to be based on a POSIX standard (POSIX.1-1988). +It is also known as +.IR Issue\~3 . This multivolume guide was developed by the X/Open Group, a multivendor consortium. .TP .B XPG4 A revision of the X/Open Portability Guide, released in 1992. +It is also known as +.IR Issue\~4 . This revision incorporated POSIX.2. .TP .B XPG4v2 commit f15e61d56be7b7799f31e667aad61b10a3d64f75 Author: Alejandro Colomar Date: Sun Jan 18 02:08:06 2026 +0100 man/man7/standards.7: Fix names of SVID revisions, and add links =20 Cc: =D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=B1 Cc: Seth McDonald Signed-off-by: Alejandro Colomar diff --git a/man/man7/standards.7 b/man/man7/standards.7 index 19a7f12b2..ad244067f 100644 --- a/man/man7/standards.7 +++ b/man/man7/standards.7 @@ -75,15 +75,17 @@ .SS Unix/TS .B System V release 2 (SVr2) This was the next System V release, made in 1985. The SVr2 was formally described in the -.I "System V Interface Definition version 1" +.I "System V Interface Definition Issue 1" .RI ( "SVID 1" ) published in 1985. .TP .B System V release 3 (SVr3) This was the successor to SVr2, released in 1986. This release was formally described in the -.I "System V Interface Definition version 2" -.RI ( "SVID 2" ). +.UR https://bitsavers.org/pdf/att/unix/SVID/System_V_Interface_Definition= _Issue_2_Volume_1_1986.pdf +.I "System V Interface Definition Issue 2" +.RI ( "SVID 2" ) +.UE . .TP .B System V release 4 (SVr4) This was the successor to SVr3, released in 1989. @@ -91,8 +93,10 @@ .SS Unix/TS Manual: Operating System API (Intel processors)" (Prentice-Hall 1992, ISBN 0-13-951294-2) This release was formally described in the -.I "System V Interface Definition version 3" -.RI ( "SVID 3" ), +.UR https://archive.org/details/systemvinterface0001unse/ +.I "System V Interface Definition Third Edition" +.RI ( "SVID 3" ) +.UE , and is considered the definitive System V release. .TP .B SVID 4 commit c7c2b4668a6b84994a2c14535ab22f9e841c3991 Author: Alejandro Colomar Date: Sun Jan 18 01:54:33 2026 +0100 man/man7/standards.7: SUSv2 is Issue 5 =20 Cc: =D0=BD=D0=B0=D0=B1 Cc: Seth McDonald Signed-off-by: Alejandro Colomar diff --git a/man/man7/standards.7 b/man/man7/standards.7 index 4b21df5a8..19a7f12b2 100644 --- a/man/man7/standards.7 +++ b/man/man7/standards.7 @@ -315,8 +315,8 @@ .SS POSIX and SUS .TP .B SUSv2 Single UNIX Specification version 2. -Sometimes also referred to (incorrectly) as -.IR XPG5 . +Sometimes also referred to as +.IR Issue\~5 . This standard appeared in 1997. Systems conforming to this standard can be branded .IR UNIX\~98 . > > > Early POSIX.1 and .2 derived much of their wording from their > > > respective antecedent documents and some sentences still blame back > > > to the SysIII manual. > > It would be good to document for example things like "this standard was > > incorporated in that later standard", to have a rough idea of the > > standard lineages. > At a 10km POV "newer standards copy stuff from older standards", > which is neither novel nor interesting to the reader, > and at a precise POV this is book-sized. The details of how these frobnicate themselves can be documented per page if necessary, or omitted if unimportant. But a 10 km (or 40 yr) overview is important to keep, because otherwise when someone talks about the SVID or XPG, I have no clue of what they are talking about. I've recently learnt some of that lost history, most of it thanks to you, but otherwise I'd be blind; and I'd like to make it possible for others to also know what people are talking about when they mention ancient standards or systems. In my head, there's now a tree which looks more or less like this (oversimplified, and maybe technically incorrect in some places): V1 V2 V3 V4 V5-- 1BSD /--- OpenBSD=09 V6-----\ 2BSD /------ NetBSD V7---------\ 3BSD - 4BSD - 4.3BSD Lite -- | \------ FreeBSD SysIII Unix/TS 4 X3J11 SysVr1 | SysVr2 =3D> SVID Issue 1 | SysVr3 =3D> SVID Issue 2 ---------\ C89 SysVr4 =3D> SVID 3rd Ed. POSIX.1-1988 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D>= XPG Issue 3 | SVID 4th Ed. POSIX.1-1990,POSIX.2 =3D> XPG Issue 4 C95 | XPG Issue 4, v2 =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D> SUSv1 | POSIX.1-1996 | | | /-------------------------------SUSv2 (Issue 5) C99 - - - - - - - - - - - -> |/-------------/ =09 | POSIX.1-2001, SUSv3 (Issue 6) | POSIX.1-2008, SUSv4 (Issue 7) C11 | C17 - - - - - - - - - - - -> POSIX.1-2024, SUSv5 (Issue 8) C23 This tree is quite useful to me, even though they frobnicated a lot more between them. At least I now have a rough idea of the context each standard had, and thus the possible frobnications. I've CCed the list so that this tree is documented there. It might be useful. Have a lovely night! 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