From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from smtp.kernel.org (aws-us-west-2-korg-mail-alma10-1.taild15c8.ts.net [100.103.45.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A720737A821 for ; Fri, 31 Jul 2026 23:19:47 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=100.103.45.18 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1785539988; cv=none; b=NMGVnmWSDOcXg9osNOlufTNGPvBOg9vyBufFyWKVIKpe5dQPP8qpSy6aCzJOVc2Z2qyYY+tsljF4NwLadh1PFvAjgHUdB9TZ9FAFGNr402MxiyTDga0QqLI/C8f09fP8JlxJQwA9k1MkLus50eo/il88Guz41+sBBAlYV9MoESw= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1785539988; c=relaxed/simple; bh=xycfe4QtutLHe5ap3C6bEHFfSEeS87qqNRDE1Y00GhE=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:References:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To; b=D7byOPzgxQhZBQGupn59tbu7rF6Eg5fTQsCN3irYqJTTa8b5141FMmg4Vw6nA633k7mhL9dPEI/HFdCC2lYs2Vl3+3vaoqqXJaZp0quzbr9ud0KDym1BaN1OlPBRNwCQxJGdF3pL9P24I0+sm0RzK2lNoek6Zjb/gXdRuttG+Jo= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kernel.org header.i=@kernel.org header.b=I9VKX+mr; arc=none smtp.client-ip=100.103.45.18 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kernel.org header.i=@kernel.org header.b="I9VKX+mr" Received: by smtp.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 734AF1F00ACA; Fri, 31 Jul 2026 23:19:44 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kernel.org; s=k20260515; t=1785539987; bh=ZxesOwBQkS+XtWwLJ7hShGYrkEVO/ub72xwrjJP2U5U=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=I9VKX+mrj6eGVPGLbthV8AZPoCX5905WBH8XAc/qanm+RvJ3E+TfaWqTPyhW7d4/H rcPJchrxZh4NsM6Rd2h6awgeInuk5efhlCgjSDFf6wXXM4tKqvlmAxfo/J9X/lJ+zK 8MAgQgLdEVmAcHfa0yC5qTz+rCOA1SQelyzymubaF+0PXnHcdUp+HzInJhSVaJL/s4 mcHugbIHrYgSzTq239nxNpmMmW60fa03Mvm4I9QNvPd7Es2Na+/5wCXSXeeTB+FGGV 86wVUQSxKYmnkd8ZtQ0ujqJ1Nw3Px8PujrZCkTmQtz2xFPgSE5l6qa08WeM1VhkEFs OXDfrus243s3Q== Date: Sat, 1 Aug 2026 01:19:42 +0200 From: Alejandro Colomar To: "G. Branden Robinson" Cc: Sam James , Joseph Myers , linux-man@vger.kernel.org, Keith Bostic , Mark Harris , Nevin Liber , JeanHeyd Meneide , Christopher Bazley , "Serge E. Hallyn" , Iker Pedrosa , "Evgeny Grin (Karlson2k)" , Kees Cook , bug-gnulib@gnu.org, libc-alpha@sourceware.org Subject: Re: on the irresponsibility of pursuing C language reform Message-ID: References: <784288e704183a4297aeaa3d13af8edab18bc1ea.1785532392.git.alx@kernel.org> <20260731215122.4p4aepsbgeoibx74@illithid> <87a4r6es6k.fsf@gentoo.org> <20260731222417.4fo36is3iawyc7d4@illithid> Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-man@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="sqevub5kqbys44zc" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20260731222417.4fo36is3iawyc7d4@illithid> --sqevub5kqbys44zc Content-Type: text/plain; protected-headers=v1; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Alejandro Colomar To: "G. Branden Robinson" Cc: Sam James , Joseph Myers , linux-man@vger.kernel.org, Keith Bostic , Mark Harris , Nevin Liber , JeanHeyd Meneide , Christopher Bazley , "Serge E. Hallyn" , Iker Pedrosa , "Evgeny Grin (Karlson2k)" , Kees Cook , bug-gnulib@gnu.org, libc-alpha@sourceware.org Subject: Re: on the irresponsibility of pursuing C language reform Message-ID: References: <784288e704183a4297aeaa3d13af8edab18bc1ea.1785532392.git.alx@kernel.org> <20260731215122.4p4aepsbgeoibx74@illithid> <87a4r6es6k.fsf@gentoo.org> <20260731222417.4fo36is3iawyc7d4@illithid> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20260731222417.4fo36is3iawyc7d4@illithid> Hi Branden, > Date: 2026-07-31 17:24:17-0500 > From: "G. Branden Robinson" > > Hi Sam, >=20 > At 2026-07-31T22:59:47+0100, Sam James wrote: > > "G. Branden Robinson" writes: > > > At 2026-07-31T21:23:35+0000, Joseph Myers wrote: > > >> I think it's irresponsible to use the man-pages project to promote > > >> personal idiosyncratic ideas like this in preference to what's been > > >> the standard location of functions since 1989. > > > > > > I'm sure I don't need to bring to your attention what a mine field > > > string/`char` sequence/memory buffer handling has been in C since the > > > language's inception. > > > > > > More to the point: what's a better forum for pursuing this attempt at > > > reform that will both (a) reach a significant population of stakehold= ers > > > who can variously red-team it and/or endorse it; and (b) has sufficie= nt > > > visibility that it can't easily be ignored by people who oppose reform > > > in this area for whatever reason? > >=20 > > I think the man page already tries to discourage use in its CAVEATS > > section. >=20 > Yes, but that's not a language reform, which is what Alex is pursuing > with "alx-0097r1". In at least one earlier iteration he's expressed his > intention to submit an N document to WG14. Indeed. > > > I hope you do not wish to imply that a closed session of some > > > committee, or unofficial backroom politicking would be preferable, > > > nor that WG14 should close its doors to members of its user > > > community who have not been vetted for a disinclination to > > > boat-rocking. > >=20 > > I am confused as to where that implication could have possibly come > > from. >=20 > From familiarity with Alex's stated objective and rationale, which we > can acquire from the recent list traffic Joseph characterized as > irresponsible. >=20 > AC> The C Committee is discussing standardization of , so > AC> let's give it a bump. >=20 > AC> I'll send you a copy of a paper I'm writing for the C Committee. >=20 > AC> It is at the bottom of this email. I will publish it as an N > AC> document in August. >=20 > https://lore.kernel.org/linux-man/784288e704183a4297aeaa3d13af8edab18bc1e= a.1785532392.git.alx@kernel.org/ > https://lore.kernel.org/linux-man/amaTpQxd52iYjlor@devuan/ Thanks for posting the links. I've seen Doug was CCd on the second, so I've bounced him the patch set and alx-0097r1, in case he's interested. >=20 > > Joseph is opposing the change in the form of a patch that is > > likely to be applied (*) to man-pages.git which has the effect of > > advocacy. >=20 > Yes, and he said so categorically. More constructive advice might have > taken the form of recommending a sequencing for staged changes. Here's > a crude sketch. >=20 > 1. Expand "CAVEATS" sections in relevant Linux man-pages documents. > 2. Pursue N-document work with WG14. > 3. When WG14 has disposed of that N-document (and any descendants > thereof), update Linux man-pages documents as appropriate. >=20 > Joseph's almost certainly better placed than I to add a "step 1.5" > such that Alex might pursue some course that would better prepare the > ground for his step 2. I haven't attempted revision of the C language > standard myself, so I can't offer specific advice regarding how best to > pursue such an objective. I possess only notions of elemental > principles regarding how democratic, consultative bodies of technical > experts _should_ serve the public. >=20 > That _is_ what we're here for, right? Yes. Some more details: I've obviously circulated this earlier within WG14, and CCd Keith and Mark in case they could clarify historic details, or were otherwise curious about/interested in the proposal. Joseph stated opposition there (within WG14), and Keith Bostic suggested that I could change the manual pages to document , and use that to influence the public, in order to get to step 2. (The exact wording may differ.) Indeed, I thought it was a great idea, as is just as portable to POSIX-ish systems as (except for gnulib and Illumos gate, gnulib is CCd, so hopefully they address this portability issue). > > I don't think it has anything to do with WG14 membership or anything > > of the like? What am I missing? >=20 > See above regarding Alex's publicly circulated drafts and expressed > plans. >=20 > > (*) Alex has a history of making opinonated changes like this to > > man-pages, such as removing references to older standards, and > > using a somewhat novel (to many) syntax for prototypes. >=20 > I concur with that assessment. However, a person having a history of > making opinionated changes is not sound grounds for evaluation of a > technical proposal, especially if it's topically unrelated. >=20 > Preoccupying oneself with irrelevancies distracts from the conscientious > execution of standards committee participation. Thanks for the support! :) Have a lovely night! Alex --=20 --sqevub5kqbys44zc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCgAdFiEES7Jt9u9GbmlWADAi64mZXMKQwqkFAmptLYUACgkQ64mZXMKQ wqmO2A//WK7Dek+23/tAJJ1IzCNcd7gjhJcG1zNBX84onqbBHDWCUA2EQJgrJxWO 9NW8Xeea6TGhDL66day4q0WDXB9luYwmz9V1pdsbwUqMGI5cBDMiWswYcn+qqD2S Bi/qy3lkpvdm+gKyG45x7SMC1XOY6LhdrNiDqCNXj4YYA9mwi5qJbzXZyyxvjDs9 6y1AToSxlbe8XMPBjlNeEf6MVEkXW/QMTORmItC8thiZlpos07HqPjgNeB+/mgE7 0LthwAA28oMNDb9pLJKqEMmwIyJJST/SOxXOlqKMlcYoJgPc+2+cTZY0jCbRnPMd QZeK/M6nTQwxf5CVXyJ9CSfJS4Mi2El/NwrFIZB1QEY0CIUqBHmFqGeBNbPxW07J E2MSnQswCQXjsjPeJ8A72YqL6A2Xr4867HqBS12Y9On3jhT8ZjpouAgcDKzqOrWe I5NKq0XqOxqfeQpVvde86q7BRSdk3Oc6AL4vnklMs9xonAIBmzb1YBEGnaPXroRJ lkqFVFKm9+mJ+qqmZ5ry9Ujvl1SM9b3KZ8jyobBjZ/2cKzKmdWNbCGQandUdoSi2 noIBNQ45aeIfrDGWJAoAqkvs9VzarbrnXb9ShVoDceJFmpAe28HwdYy5GdzTtD4N FaT7Educpafy700J4DNFYlJLQNboo8SZyp4fuuYfMcabA7olKAQ= =/yJJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --sqevub5kqbys44zc--