From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from smtp.kernel.org (aws-us-west-2-korg-mail-alma10-1.taild15c8.ts.net [100.103.45.18]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 39BAA175A8D for ; Sun, 23 Aug 2026 15:06:20 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=100.103.45.18 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1787497581; cv=none; b=o6vSD/l12xpFDbUc2ARytbjy/5ixD2SN6iHBaM4r2V9qy7uPStxJW19VHtRiJDQmE6s9z8fnT1XDXrtu0tvZuIv9EqDYQCM2qjujwl8KRF8ydQ7W7/NTYTXjmgoMTwiC9sR/k/bUUZkB0kHygW1dzzCmU14vGc6dfNh1/OuFlTM= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1787497581; c=relaxed/simple; bh=yUXfgRF93Pbo+oLYo6L9imIkhQ0mtuiphbR8Ppum2dA=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:Message-ID:References:MIME-Version: Content-Type:Content-Disposition:In-Reply-To; b=g0DPk2Xpbyd5yWJ178hkpfPI+eYmcTI4L6y/xoCtsL7HpToeGE38fMT52rHADdTA5GcWUgxSp1719BWaMDfyU98l4c4NDhVVzgMqL1Rkzw+lCHx1REs235Z+3AXhYGaUpdTb69+t9uVhct8SmKazJJomOo8t0GX2FQp5b/juQqE= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kernel.org header.i=@kernel.org header.b=bLPSYeby; arc=none smtp.client-ip=100.103.45.18 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kernel.org header.i=@kernel.org header.b="bLPSYeby" Received: by smtp.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6C7231F000E9; Sun, 23 Aug 2026 15:06:19 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=kernel.org; s=k20260515; t=1787497580; bh=yJ4ys4Cs24dBx+aFQXkX+8F+tNuQHldBYG9e7CFP180=; h=Date:From:To:Cc:Subject:References:In-Reply-To; b=bLPSYebyVSefIr+/knJruNa1/zyAqheWWfJAPgdKSTo8CVdTl4a5vLEjT2TRQr3rO zvaI1/B0PVNAfyhjitKlGjn6LdXUgC/jCk4PrTlkARXftabxMrqmYexA68v8tUlGLR YuMDscFoS1hZacZi+CV7X+z51clJrLmREMTtqMSmcN7xM+VcZV3MuzD+r8jdz7+YU/ 0VZX0aaWUrKM9F/CtIrB6pqcU9fpeW126vidg4qql6couTil1z1UBZ+sEV6OwuyhtN Wbilnofk4iRg07e9dPmOLztFOzThIu0GvUUlggveDrXJC5ZBo7QKDDfnz0pwyZU5wu uIFvGbQmJmgBw== Date: Sun, 23 Aug 2026 17:06:16 +0200 From: Alejandro Colomar To: "G. Branden Robinson" Cc: linux-man@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: Using LS/LE (was: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config) Message-ID: References: <20260807021256.pwzsls7awqmbslti@illithid> <20260823132749.pgypzsqv32n67wor@illithid> <20260823141622.7vszwghxrxvkff4j@illithid> Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-man@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha512; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="yn5fwro57ezxpucf" Content-Disposition: inline In-Reply-To: <20260823141622.7vszwghxrxvkff4j@illithid> --yn5fwro57ezxpucf Content-Type: text/plain; protected-headers=v1; charset=utf-8 Content-Disposition: inline Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable From: Alejandro Colomar To: "G. Branden Robinson" Cc: linux-man@vger.kernel.org Subject: Re: Using LS/LE (was: [PATCH v4 2/4] man/man5/tunables.conf: Document system-wide tunables config) Message-ID: References: <20260807021256.pwzsls7awqmbslti@illithid> <20260823132749.pgypzsqv32n67wor@illithid> <20260823141622.7vszwghxrxvkff4j@illithid> MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <20260823141622.7vszwghxrxvkff4j@illithid> Hi Branden, > Date: 2026-08-23 09:16:22-0500 > From: "G. Branden Robinson" > > Hi Alex, >=20 > At 2026-08-23T15:55:29+0200, Alejandro Colomar wrote: > > > From: "G. Branden Robinson" > > > > Do you know what's wrong? > > >=20 > > > More or less. It turns out to be damned hard to balance the > > > requirements of (1) Automake maintainer mode; (2) building from Git > > > repository checkouts; and (3) building from distribution archives. > > > Bruno Haible has been helpful in finding scenarios that don't work. > > >=20 > > > https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/groff/2026-08/msg00039.html > >=20 > > Hmmmm, now it rings a bell. bootstrap said something about configure > > with maintainer mode, but I ignored that, since I had never used > > maintainer mode. >=20 > Right. I introduced that very recently during the RCs for 1.25.0, > because it seemed necessary. But as shown, Bruno has proposed patches > ripping it back out. >=20 > I'm pretty frustrated with Automake's lack of explicit support for > building from Git working copies. Or maybe it's brilliantly documented > somewhere I haven't seen yet... I dislike autotools for that and other reasons. For groff(1), writing a portable hand-written Makefile might be too hard to write. But for the man-pages, I love the hand-written Makefile we have. I'm still waiting for GNU Make to make a new release, and then be able to get rid of the mandatory -R, but other than that, it works quite nicely. [...] > I do _not_ get such errors. Shell session attached. >=20 > ...but I'm building _from the release candidate archive_, as I advised > you to do. Yup; I don't like using tarballs. It's much easier to just check out git HEAD. :) > > > Build finished successfully for me in about 60 seconds. > >=20 > > Out of curiosity, where did you get those timestamps from? Does your > > history file store them? >=20 > Yes. That's simply the output of Bash's "history" built-in. I chopped > off the command numbers and removed irrelevancies like "ls". Oh, I don't have that! $ history | tail -n1 1997 history | tail -n1 After checking `help history`, I now realize it has a HISTTIMEFORMAT variable for doing that. I've added it now to my bashrc: alx@devuan:~/src/alx/config/main$ git show -U0 commit 9b64c78f797fc3abab83148b24143402a5d2a839 (HEAD -> main) Author: Alejandro Colomar Date: 2026-08-23 16:53:59 +0200 bash: HISTTIMEFORMAT: Add variable =20 Signed-off-by: Alejandro Colomar diff --git a/etc/bash.bashrc b/etc/bash.bashrc index af974d211e14..f2f7772c8e51 100644 --- a/etc/bash.bashrc +++ b/etc/bash.bashrc @@ -2,0 +3 @@ export GPG_TTY=3D"$(tty)"; +export HISTTIMEFORMAT=3D"%F %T%z "; I've been wanting that for a long long time! It's good to know it exists. :) > > Using groff from git HEAD, I see the list as this: > >=20 > > $ cat ls.man=20 > > .TH a s d f > > .SH test > > foo > > .LS > > .IP \[bu] 3 > > bar > > .IP \[bu] > > baz > > .LS > > .P > > qwe > > $ /opt/local/gnu/groff/20260823_master/bin/groff -man -Tutf8 ./ls.man= =20 > > a(s) = a(s) > >=20 > > test > > foo > >=20 > > =E2=80=A2 bar > >=20 > > =E2=80=A2 baz > >=20 > > qwe > >=20 > > f d = a(s) > >=20 > > Is this intended? I thought it would imply PD 0. >=20 > Yes, it's intended. If you want the list compact, you have to say so. >=20 > Also, you need to say what kind of list you're presenting. >=20 > groff_man(7): > .LS type [compactness [indentation]] > (since groff 1.25) Start (or open) a list. type is one of > =E2=80=9Cdefinition=E2=80=9D, =E2=80=9Cenumerated=E2=80=9D, o= r =E2=80=9Citemized=E2=80=9D. compactness is a > Boolean value directing suppression of inter=E2=80=90paragraph > spacing between list items. indentation specifies an > indentation amount for the body of each list item; it is > then unnecessary to specify this argument to the list item > macros. Use IP with a mark argument to represent an > itemized or enumerated list item, and TP for a definition > list item. Use IP without arguments to associate successive > paragraphs with an existing list item; to these, inter=E2=80= =90 > paragraph spacing applies even in compact lists. >=20 > .LE (since groff 1.25) End (or close) the most recent open list. >=20 > > .LS >=20 > Say instead: >=20 > .LS itemized 1 Oh, yeah, I forgot to RTFM. :-) Here's an interesting thing (it might be okay, just noting it): diff --git i/man/man5/tunables.conf.5 w/man/man5/tunables.conf.5 index 91bb6b81cb85..835c409eb074 100644 --- i/man/man5/tunables.conf.5 +++ w/man/man5/tunables.conf.5 @@ -89,9 +89,10 @@ .SS Filters Filters limit the tunables following it. The effects of a filter are terminated by any of the following: +.P +.LS itemized 1 .IP \[bu] 3 The end of the file. -.PD 0 .IP \[bu] The end of an included file. .IP \[bu] @@ -100,7 +101,7 @@ .SS Filters directive. .IP \[bu] A new (possibly empty) filter. -.PD +.LE .P The syntax is: .P I had to add that P paragraph so that there's a blank before the list. That's a bit unusual, since that would technically be an empty paragraph; or maybe we can consider that paragraph to be the entire list, but that's unusual in man(7). That said, I'm fine with that. What do you think? Cheers, Alex --=20 --yn5fwro57ezxpucf Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAABCgAdFiEES7Jt9u9GbmlWADAi64mZXMKQwqkFAmqLDGcACgkQ64mZXMKQ wqkxJw//a2OAsCxPkh2wrNTPPbK09tPK9bUhekowTRwgf7sIwBt3+qKKwah8wQXH +5rcXdAqpaa/GML0yFcTsvckQjJsthmYGNmB29R5ZBbXP6GubprHV73O/iCAMiPx RTo/s8dsNEtmkoStQgbxGPF7tOeNbpL7320wQAt1Tblk25616TaDweTRgGfbKUjW fX+oYuFmpH0Qu5plWxFOEt+Ga1uJZ420lwlpv1AO7xSCTPwPVaCJz4tHiVycDsNg nyxFS9dDuzr9GeYD5DpeKrO6IS1rJKXuK/I+EcguJ+6TAXUh0t8UdzsMJQm34Xso sLqpz1mljm0ZR0o6vqIt+LnQN+1/3RToiJ9FvV5d1CmR1ug5+8SKtUWT0mEyVEPN SJUr7fuMguPt9T987i+Q3v873xQMPvcmnJ0rIj45ruQFklcckXbKJJUOLVTMVXjc cZG38NRFgX/O3TGbMLmO0uzR5sq3W1vvQXxPs9StJUPjF4ZgfSvXCzqvRbeVElY3 7X31/M02CflhmApb1j32paQx1sN2kmXSeNe3J6nH2STh0yA3NtND20WULCB58EOz sUHQ71EauPGs2NG13ZH/1hhhEtdNTN1azoRz3SSeVr4VYZ4IMpePc6/+8RhFORGu oz4ghABWwGcBlltUcJ66GilBGy37ZUeLRsqddR39ucR1VkNdJvA= =WBPA -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --yn5fwro57ezxpucf--