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Branden Robinson" , linux-man@vger.kernel.org References: <20230526131503.vvejwh3cgsrobgl3@illithid> From: Alejandro Colomar In-Reply-To: <20230526131503.vvejwh3cgsrobgl3@illithid> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------bmPGTZcBgHV6z0A3XUB1u5Zz" Precedence: bulk List-ID: X-Mailing-List: linux-man@vger.kernel.org This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------bmPGTZcBgHV6z0A3XUB1u5Zz Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------Luxfi1SXD9x9oOSEXIerd5R6"; protected-headers="v1" From: Alejandro Colomar To: "G. Branden Robinson" , linux-man@vger.kernel.org Message-ID: Subject: Re: SPDX license review requests References: <20230526131503.vvejwh3cgsrobgl3@illithid> In-Reply-To: <20230526131503.vvejwh3cgsrobgl3@illithid> --------------Luxfi1SXD9x9oOSEXIerd5R6 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi Branden, On 5/26/23 15:15, G. Branden Robinson wrote: > [mailing only the list, but CCing Alex as I know he doesn't mind] >=20 > Hi Alex, >=20 > Thanks for getting the ball rolling on this. I have some critiques of > the existing variants and a suggestion for the forms we go back to SPDX= > with. I did also see your follow-ups which confused me a little, and I= > fear they might confuse others a bit. I suggest taking a few days to > shake out some points (it's going to be a holiday weekend in the U.S. > anyway, so some engineers may already be on PTO), and then re-announce > the relicensing effort subsequently. I'll go on trip around Europe for a couple of weeks starting this weekend= , so I'll be relatively quiet for some time. :) >=20 > At 2023-05-26T00:56:47+0200, Alejandro Colomar wrote: >> We've got 4 derivatives of the "VERBATIM" (now one of them in SPDX >> as Linux-man-pages-copyleft") license. I'll paste here the four. >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> >> $ cat LICENSES/Linux-man-pages-copyleft.txt=20 >> Copyright (c) All rights reserved. >> >> Permission is granted to make and distribute verbatim copies of this >> manual provided the copyright notice and this permission notice are >> preserved on all copies. >> >> Permission is granted to copy and distribute modified versions of >> this manual under the conditions for verbatim copying, provided that >> the entire resulting derived work is distributed under the terms of >> a permission notice identical to this one. >> >> Since the Linux kernel and libraries are constantly changing, this >> manual page may be incorrect or out-of-date. The author(s) assume >> no responsibility for errors or omissions, or for damages resulting >> from the use of the information contained herein. The author(s) may >> not have taken the same level of care in the production of this >> manual, which is licensed free of charge, as they might when working >> professionally. >> >> Formatted or processed versions of this manual, if unaccompanied by >> the source, must acknowledge the copyright and authors of this work. >> >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >=20 > The final paragraph may be nearly redundant/superfluous. (1) Copyright= > laws and international treaties forbid the effacement of (valid) > copyright notices anyway, even under transformation ("formatt[ing]" or > "process[ing]"). (2) Man pages are nearly always distributed and store= d > on systems in source form anyway. If systems ship "cat pages" without > their man(7) (or mdoc(7)) sources, they are already in violation not > only of this provision but the aforementioned laws and treaties. >=20 > I agree with your point about how amateur work is not necessarily done > more poorly than professional work. Striking that sentence leads to th= e > following... >=20 >> $ head -n21 man2/set_mempolicy.2 >> .\" Copyright 2003,2004 Andi Kleen, SuSE Labs. >> .\" and Copyright 2007 Lee Schermerhorn, Hewlett Packard >> .\" >> .\" %%%LICENSE_START(VERBATIM_PROF) >> .\" Permission is granted to make and distribute verbatim copies of th= is >> .\" manual provided the copyright notice and this permission notice ar= e >> .\" preserved on all copies. >> .\" >> .\" Permission is granted to copy and distribute modified versions of = this >> .\" manual under the conditions for verbatim copying, provided that th= e >> .\" entire resulting derived work is distributed under the terms of a >> .\" permission notice identical to this one. >> .\" >> .\" Since the Linux kernel and libraries are constantly changing, this= >> .\" manual page may be incorrect or out-of-date. The author(s) assume= no >> .\" responsibility for errors or omissions, or for damages resulting f= rom >> .\" the use of the information contained herein. >> .\" >> .\" Formatted or processed versions of this manual, if unaccompanied b= y >> .\" the source, must acknowledge the copyright and authors of this wor= k. >> .\" %%%LICENSE_END >=20 > With the next license, things get murkier. >=20 >> =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D >> [...] >=20 >> $ head -n13 man2/move_pages.2 >> .\" This manpage is Copyright (C) 2006 Silicon Graphics, Inc. >> .\" Christoph Lameter >> .\" >> .\" %%%LICENSE_START(VERBATIM_TWO_PARA) >> .\" Permission is granted to make and distribute verbatim copies of th= is >> .\" manual provided the copyright notice and this permission notice ar= e >> .\" preserved on all copies. >> .\" >> .\" Permission is granted to copy and distribute modified versions of = this >> .\" manual under the conditions for verbatim copying, provided that th= e >> .\" entire resulting derived work is distributed under the terms of a >> .\" permission notice identical to this one. >> .\" %%%LICENSE_END >=20 > This is the same as the first license we saw above with the last 2 > paragraphs removed--the one expressing a kind of disclaimer, and the on= e > that I claimed is redundant/superfluous. >=20 > I see from your follow-up email that _this_ is the one Fedora claimed t= o > have a Freeness problem with. Can we scare up a cite for which one, > exactly, they were referring to? The concern their determination cause= s > me is that _none_ of the four license you present here explicitly grant= > permission to translate. Sorry, I was already confused with so many threads. So, there's one more= license, not derived from these, but which seems related to GPL. It's the LDP (v1) license. That's the one that was rejected by Fedora: The reason was the prohibition to recommend an info manual. I confused that thread, with the one about VERBATIM_TWO_PARA, in which you accused it of also being non-free. >=20 > The LaTeX 2e/"traditional GNU documentation license", from which all of= > these license texts seem to be derived, solved the translation problem > with an explicit grant of permission. >=20 >>> Permission is granted to copy and distribute translations of this >>> manual into another language, under the above conditions for modified= >>> versions. >=20 > And in fact if you add the foregoing paragraph to "VERBATIM_TWO_PARA", > you get _precisely_ what SPDX calls the "Latex2e license". >=20 > https://spdx.org/licenses/Latex2e.html [...] >> Would you please relicense to either Linux-man-pages-copyleft or >> VERBATIM_PROF? >=20 > If you agree, I would add LaTeX 2e to the list of acceptable candidates= =2E >=20 >> Also, Linux-man-pages-copyleft seems to contain a sentence that >> makes it differ from VERBATIM_PROF: >> >> """ >> The author(s) may >> not have taken the same level of care in the production of this >> manual, which is licensed free of charge, as they might when working >> professionally. >> """ >> >> I believe the quality of non-professional code and manuals to be >> at least as high as the professional one. We have more freedom to >> reject crap. I propose also deprecating Linux-man-pages-copyleft >> and moving to VERBATIM_PROF as the single surviving license from >> all four variants. >=20 > I'd go farther and move to LaTeX 2e. >=20 >> We're also discussing the names that each of these four should be >> given in SPDX. >=20 > Is that necessary, if you successfully migrate away from these to texts= > that are already in SPDX, like LaTeX 2e and the existing Linux man-page= s > copyleft? I realize SPDX wants to capture many licenses for SWBOM > purposes, but if this transition is successful, the foregoing task will= > rapidly become a problem of history. And historical software > distributions have far worse description problems, such as (1) unknown > provenance, (2) missing copyright/licensing information, and (3) > incorrect copyright/licensing information. (To an extent, all three of= > these problems will continue to arise from time to time.) >=20 >> I suggest (in order of appearance in this email): >> >> - Linux-man-pages-copyleft to be renamed to the following, and >> mark it as a deprecated license. >> >> Linux-man-pages-copyleft-nopro >> Linux man-pages Copyleft (non-professional) >=20 > I thought SPDX didn't support renames at all...? They renamed GPL-2.0 to GPL-2.0-only, AFAIK. >=20 > But if they do, I suggest disambiguation tags that are more descriptive= > rather than trying to capture catchwords that distinguish them. >=20 > Linux-man-pages-copyleft-care-disclaimer > Linux man-pages Copyleft (with care disclaimer) Sounds good for VERBATIM_PROF. [...] > And I wouldn't put a term like "high quality" (or "low quality") in a > license identifier under any circumstances. Agree. >=20 >> - VERBATIM_TWO_PARA to be SPDX'd as: >> >> Linux-man-pages-copyleft-notrans >> Linux man-pages Copyleft (no translations) >=20 > ...this, too, says nothing of Linux to distinguish it from LaTeX 2e. >=20 > It is the LaTeX 2e license missing its latter two paragraphs. >=20 >> - VERBATIM_ONE_PARA to be SPDX'd as: >> >> Linux-man-pages-copyleft-verbatim >> Linux man-pages Copyleft (verbatim) >=20 > This one doesn't mention "Linux" but is pretty idiosyncratically worded= > ("this page"). And Fedora had the aforementioned problem wherein they > claimed to be unable to locate permission to translate here. >=20 > You have already identified it as defective in its grant of permissions= , > and it affects only 2 documents in the Linux man-pages. >=20 > Can we try to slate this one for the chopping block, and just not take > it back to SPDX at all? Sure. Hopefully we can remove some. I'll already relicense the ones owned by Alan. Cheers, Alex >=20 > Regards, > Branden --=20 GPG key fingerprint: A9348594CE31283A826FBDD8D57633D441E25BB5 --------------Luxfi1SXD9x9oOSEXIerd5R6-- --------------bmPGTZcBgHV6z0A3XUB1u5Zz Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE6jqH8KTroDDkXfJAnowa+77/2zIFAmRwvecACgkQnowa+77/ 2zJOSg/9ERpiFCMIcCFY/birs0g+GyIWbBu4tiyhl+XaLC8yDNZMMH//7WW1Gtan 2ZaTjzUszPCMWRc4QwamnCj254Ia8Kp68LvSvJKhMPjJySdv9zEzK12d2zsZ8GPk PYoerCUP4vBDYR4oU+u31xJdmPELg+o5HxAfnntS05DBYapkKUQRM3odjYdnUQHa N7HkXTP/Tf2P0p94pW3EiP4jvcK9gFGOK/PnsrcKVAjKUH1BwNAwrq3GAgCIecvT K3d052zNKYjdSjLJe4SG17TaA1RsZm4Id7otsvhJQvK27qW6i9bDwCO93AvwnYEb +NIBhH0CB2NsdS58ScSaWQHxAjWJfY1o2UYTKAHVW8YjoOLwngII3cNZ58uzZqhF Gxj5ptDF7Mc1eHbn71sBihMLfay4zfuW/VlIYZqXJOdBGSCQhSfH8ewzRh4CHfe8 vJHOaBT+6QJaLg4ezGZhcF3GgK+UMpI76M6FIQKu055mpwWR9gy3Mof+DHnb3CPt FdCjJjtKY4qpwfOjoN3Keqtb1HrE+6mP22dy56YXZ9ZNw6sdy2+Urmzzp8/pFCaR 1RqdAXGcN3sQHGKwxT4pLYeSvO238HeoUKUcBVFnGkhn8W9csuggu9OS3uhAd1X5 TqKQ5wLyrcXQU9puCctcN3X12NqMyRqXhMPKkor8s4/CeCsdt1c= =zLR6 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------bmPGTZcBgHV6z0A3XUB1u5Zz--