[linux-dvb] [Wanted] dvb-ttpci maintainer

[linux-dvb] [Wanted] dvb-ttpci maintainer

[Oliver Endriss]

Hi,

due to the way S2API was pushed through (I would call it a plot)
there is not much motivation left to spend my time with DVB.

So - if someone wants to take over the dvb-ttpci drivers he should speak
up now. The sooner the better.

Oliver

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Re: [linux-dvb] [Wanted] dvb-ttpci maintainer

[Goga777]

> due to the way S2API was pushed through (I would call it a plot)
> there is not much motivation left to spend my time with DVB.
> 
> So - if someone wants to take over the dvb-ttpci drivers he should speak
> up now. The sooner the better.


ah, it's very pity :(

will you stay with VDR project ?

Goga

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Re: [linux-dvb] [Wanted] dvb-ttpci maintainer

[Oliver Endriss]

Goga777 wrote:
> Oliver Endriss wrote:
> > So - if someone wants to take over the dvb-ttpci drivers he should speak
> > up now. The sooner the better.
> 
> ah, it's very pity :(
> 
> will you stay with VDR project ?

Sure.

Oliver

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Re: [linux-dvb] [Wanted] dvb-ttpci maintainer

[VDR User]

On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 10:22 AM, Oliver Endriss <o.endriss@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> due to the way S2API was pushed through (I would call it a plot)
> there is not much motivation left to spend my time with DVB.
>
> So - if someone wants to take over the dvb-ttpci drivers he should speak
> up now. The sooner the better.

I'm not the only person who will hate to see you leave!  Many people
are disgusted by this stunt they pulled and while your absence will be
a great loss to the linux dvb community, I understand & accept your
position on it.  Unfortunately the politics, backstabbing, and dirty
tactics has been driving away some very good people & assets away.  I
can only hope that some day people will be put in charge who are
unbiased and don't let their personal feelings interfere with what's
best for the community.

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Re: [linux-dvb] [v4l-dvb-maintainer] [Wanted] dvb-ttpci maintainer

[hermann pitton]

Am Mittwoch, den 24.09.2008, 19:22 +0200 schrieb Oliver Endriss:
> Hi,
> 
> due to the way S2API was pushed through (I would call it a plot)
> there is not much motivation left to spend my time with DVB.
> 
> So - if someone wants to take over the dvb-ttpci drivers he should speak
> up now. The sooner the better.
> 
> Oliver
> 

Oliver,

you and Manu still stand for dvb with highest respect from _all_ I know
about.

And for all I know else, maybe I know nothing, this was for sure not a
plot.

Except of course a majority of plumbers at the same place at the same
time can create/propose some facts.

If you attack people such hard as Manu did, also behind the visible
lines sometimes, Marcel had a copy from me concerning Mauro and did say
nothing, you must not wonder about people starting to defend themselves.

For sure the dirt was not started from v4l people.

Think it over.

Hermann
 




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Re: [linux-dvb] [v4l-dvb-maintainer] [Wanted] dvb-ttpci maintainer

[Torgeir Veimo]

This whole issue seems to be a classical case of tension during a  
cathedral to bazar development style project transition.

-- 
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torgeir@pobox.com





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[linux-dvb] Re : [v4l-dvb-maintainer] [Wanted] dvb-ttpci maintainer

[manu]

Le 24.09.2008 21:40:05, Torgeir Veimo a écrit :
> This whole issue seems to be a classical case of tension during a  
> cathedral to bazar development style project transition.

Wouldn't this transitional state just be called a mess ;-)
OK just trying to make some fun out of this, I mean this is supposed to 
be our spare time hobby so passion is OK but people have to sometimes 
take a deep breath and remember that is what it should: spare time FUN!
;-)
Bye
Manu




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Re: [linux-dvb] Re : [v4l-dvb-maintainer] [Wanted] dvb-ttpci maintainer

[hermann pitton]

Am Mittwoch, den 24.09.2008, 21:45 -0400 schrieb manu:
> Le 24.09.2008 21:40:05, Torgeir Veimo a écrit :
> > This whole issue seems to be a classical case of tension during a  
> > cathedral to bazar development style project transition.
> 
> Wouldn't this transitional state just be called a mess ;-)
> OK just trying to make some fun out of this, I mean this is supposed to 
> be our spare time hobby so passion is OK but people have to sometimes 
> take a deep breath and remember that is what it should: spare time FUN!
> ;-)
> Bye
> Manu

Yes :)

But others deal with NDAs and have more details on linux already for
latest chip revisions than some major OEM might have on m$ smashing
against the shores with the first generations ...

This is what however 100% counts for Manu and I do not deny it.

But within that transitional kind of stuff we must live ...

There is no other, also not for the others ;)

Hermann






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Re: [linux-dvb] [v4l-dvb-maintainer] [Wanted] dvb-ttpci maintainer

[Oliver Endriss]

hermann pitton wrote:
> 
> Am Mittwoch, den 24.09.2008, 19:22 +0200 schrieb Oliver Endriss:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > due to the way S2API was pushed through (I would call it a plot)
> > there is not much motivation left to spend my time with DVB.
> > 
> > So - if someone wants to take over the dvb-ttpci drivers he should speak
> > up now. The sooner the better.
>
> Oliver,
> 
> you and Manu still stand for dvb with highest respect from _all_ I know
> about.
> 
> And for all I know else, maybe I know nothing, this was for sure not a
> plot.
> 
> Except of course a majority of plumbers at the same place at the same
> time can create/propose some facts.

No. They can discuss/propose anything they like, but 8 people don't have
any right to make decisions. (This is why I call it a plot.)

There are basic democratic rules which must be followed in a community:

(1) Make a proposal
(2) Discuss the proposal
(3) Finally, _after_ the discussion: A poll to find a decision.

> ...
> Think it over.

Well, I had enough time to think about it...

Oliver

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Re: [linux-dvb] [vdr] [v4l-dvb-maintainer] [Wanted] dvb-ttpci maintainer

[Halim Sahin]

Hi,
On Do, Sep 25, 2008 at 12:54:58 +0200, Oliver Endriss wrote:
> There are basic democratic rules which must be followed in a community:
> 
> (1) Make a proposal

Yes We have multiproto, since 2006.


> (2) Discuss the proposal

Was done since 2006

> (3) Finally, _after_ the discussion: A poll to find a decision.

Great thing. Why was multiproto not merged after your code review
november 2007????

I thing Manu wanted to do the s2 stuff himself and did not  accept 
any community help.
Yes I read most of the old mails from last year.
In most cases Manu wrote that multiproto is not ready.
The fact is, that many people are using (not ready multiproto stuff) 
since two years.

The basic democratic rules should integrate the community 
and not only two multiproto developers.

Any way,  my compromise for this problem is:
Manu Abraham and Steven Toth should work on one of the API's (together) and then
decide which is the better solution for the new upcoming standards!

The current situation is not acceptable for endusers / other
developers!!!!
Please don't stop your great work on ttpci Oliver.
Regards
Halim


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Re: [linux-dvb] [vdr] [v4l-dvb-maintainer] [Wanted] dvb-ttpci maintainer

[Manu Abraham]

Halim Sahin wrote:
> Hi,
> On Do, Sep 25, 2008 at 12:54:58 +0200, Oliver Endriss wrote:
>> There are basic democratic rules which must be followed in a community:
>>
>> (1) Make a proposal
> 
> Yes We have multiproto, since 2006.
> 
> 
>> (2) Discuss the proposal
> 
> Was done since 2006
> 
>> (3) Finally, _after_ the discussion: A poll to find a decision.
> 
> Great thing. Why was multiproto not merged after your code review
> november 2007????
> 
> I thing Manu wanted to do the s2 stuff himself and did not  accept 
> any community help.

http://lwn.net/Articles/297301/

API and core related patches: 31 + 1 patches, total 32 in all.

http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/manu/dvb_patches/

The people who contributed some way or the other (in the final stages):
on the API changes alone. (Not mentioning about the people who initially
provided many comments.)

Marco Schluessler <marco@lordzodiac.de>
Arvo Jarve <arvo@softshark.ee>
Reinhard Nissl <rnissl@gmx.de>
Oliver Endriss <o.endriss@gmx.de>
Anssi Hannula <anssi.hannula@gmail.com>

These folks on a whole, contributed to ~14 of the patches.

> Yes I read most of the old mails from last year.
> In most cases Manu wrote that multiproto is not ready.
> The fact is, that many people are using (not ready multiproto stuff) 
> since two years.

After the code review, it was left for testing. Thanks to the VDR
community/Klaus for providing support for the same, so it could be
tested in real life.

As you can see quite some of the changes came during the test phase, as
you can see from the timestamps in the multiproto tree.


Regards,
Manu


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Re: [linux-dvb] [vdr] [v4l-dvb-maintainer] [Wanted] dvb-ttpci maintainer

[Halim Sahin]

Hi,

On Do, Sep 25, 2008 at 06:01:41 +0400, Manu Abraham wrote:
> http://lwn.net/Articles/297301/
 
Please read this:

http://www.linuxtv.org/pipermail/vdr/2008-January/015329.html
You wrote the merge window is open for 2.6.25.
We have now stable 2.6.26 and 2.6.27 is allmost ready.
I respect your work and your technical knowledge about dvb standards
etc.
Maybe your multiproto is more complete than the s2 one (I don't know).


@All: Please stop this and coose one api, port the drivers and 
try to work together on the dvb Stuff.
Currently all people who wants to use dvb under linux is 
frustrated by this.

Just my 2 Cents.
Halim

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Re: [linux-dvb] [vdr] [v4l-dvb-maintainer] [Wanted] dvb-ttpci maintainer

[Manu Abraham]

Halim Sahin wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> On Do, Sep 25, 2008 at 06:01:41 +0400, Manu Abraham wrote:
>> http://lwn.net/Articles/297301/
>  
> Please read this:
> 
> http://www.linuxtv.org/pipermail/vdr/2008-January/015329.html
> You wrote the merge window is open for 2.6.25.
> We have now stable 2.6.26 and 2.6.27 is allmost ready.

As i wrote, fixes came in and had to be fixed. You can see the commit
history here:

http://jusst.de/hg/multiproto/shortlog

In between, i went for vacation due to my marriage. During that period i
had little access, but did whatever possible to get feedback/patches in
there, during whatever time and access i had.

Regards,
Manu


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Re: [linux-dvb] [vdr] [v4l-dvb-maintainer] [Wanted] dvb-ttpci maintainer

[Halim Sahin]

Hi,
On Do, Sep 25, 2008 at 07:04:13 +0400, Manu Abraham wrote:
> Halim Sahin wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > On Do, Sep 25, 2008 at 06:01:41 +0400, Manu Abraham wrote:
> >> http://lwn.net/Articles/297301/
> >  
> > Please read this:
> > 
> > http://www.linuxtv.org/pipermail/vdr/2008-January/015329.html
> > You wrote the merge window is open for 2.6.25.
> > We have now stable 2.6.26 and 2.6.27 is allmost ready.
> 
> As i wrote, fixes came in and had to be fixed. You can see the commit
> history here:
> 
> http://jusst.de/hg/multiproto/shortlog
 
Right 

> In between, i went for vacation due to my marriage. During that period i
> had little access, but did whatever possible to get feedback/patches in
> there, during whatever time and access i had.

During your vacation somebody else could ad patches if you 
wanted to work with other developers.
This could only happen if you have your code under linuxtv.org and or
merged it completely to v4l-dvb!

You are the maintainer of multiproto and 
So nobody could work on it in your absence time!

Sorry this sounds not ok to me.

Anyway the problem is nobody should leave linuxtv.org project. 
We should now stop this and go on.
Please !!!!!!!!!
Thanks for your great work!

Halim


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Re: [linux-dvb] [vdr] [v4l-dvb-maintainer] [Wanted] dvb-ttpci maintainer

[Manu Abraham]

Halim Sahin wrote:
> Hi,
> On Do, Sep 25, 2008 at 07:04:13 +0400, Manu Abraham wrote:
>> Halim Sahin wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> On Do, Sep 25, 2008 at 06:01:41 +0400, Manu Abraham wrote:
>>>> http://lwn.net/Articles/297301/
>>>  
>>> Please read this:
>>>
>>> http://www.linuxtv.org/pipermail/vdr/2008-January/015329.html
>>> You wrote the merge window is open for 2.6.25.
>>> We have now stable 2.6.26 and 2.6.27 is allmost ready.
>> As i wrote, fixes came in and had to be fixed. You can see the commit
>> history here:
>>
>> http://jusst.de/hg/multiproto/shortlog
>  
> Right 
> 
>> In between, i went for vacation due to my marriage. During that period i
>> had little access, but did whatever possible to get feedback/patches in
>> there, during whatever time and access i had.
> 
> During your vacation somebody else could ad patches if you 
> wanted to work with other developers.

If you see the logs, the last fix changeset 9039 was added while i was
away. Anyone can add patches to the tree, just that i need to pull back
the changes from that person.

For example: while i was away, somebody else did a clone of the same
tree and added the patches.

> This could only happen if you have your code under linuxtv.org and or
> merged it completely to v4l-dvb!

There are 2 development models, a centralized style (CVS/SVN etc) and a
distributed style (mercurial/git etc). The centralized model, offers a
CVS tree or a SVN tree to which multiple people have commit access to.

This was how the old DVB and dvb-kernel CVS trees worked. But this
centralized development model was phased out quite long back, in favour
of a distributed model.

The distributed development model works the same from any place. Person
A makes the changes to his local tree and those changes can be pulled in
to the working repository.

> You are the maintainer of multiproto and 
> So nobody could work on it in your absence time!

As i pointed out just above, somebody else did a clone of the tree and
added in some changes that people sent to the ML. I can pull in those
changes as what is applicable from that tree. This is how distributed
development works.

> Sorry this sounds not ok to me.

I don't have any problem in using whatever SCM, but it makes it a little
bit easier for the user to have some similarities between development
trees. Maybe if more people are for a centralized repository, then
people should voice concern as to change the SCM. This has nothing to do
with me.

> Anyway the problem is nobody should leave linuxtv.org project. 
> We should now stop this and go on.
> Please !!!!!!!!!
> Thanks for your great work!


Regards,
Manu

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Re: [linux-dvb] [v4l-dvb-maintainer] [Wanted] dvb-ttpci maintainer

[Oliver Endriss]

hermann pitton wrote:
> Except of course a majority of plumbers at the same place at the same
> time can create/propose some facts.

IMO decisions must be made where the community is, i.e. on the mailing
list. Not at a conference, no matter whether it is at one end of the
world or on the dark side of the moon. ;-(

To make it absolutely clear: 
I did not leave _because_ S2API was selected.
I left because it was done _this_way_.

Good for those, who are fine with these methods. I am not.

> If you attack people such hard as Manu did, also behind the visible
> lines sometimes, Marcel had a copy from me concerning Mauro and did say
> nothing, you must not wonder about people starting to defend themselves.

I consider flame wars ridiculous. I did not participate, and I will not
participate in the future.

I believe that I know very well what is going on. (During more than 30
years in software development I have seen all kinds of problems. I know
how people react and why things happen.)

> For sure the dirt was not started from v4l people.
>
> Think it over.

Unlikely. I made this decision after sleeping over it for a few days.
Now I feel much better.

Oliver

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Re: [linux-dvb] [v4l-dvb-maintainer] [Wanted] dvb-ttpci maintainer

[hermann pitton]

Am Freitag, den 26.09.2008, 17:14 +0200 schrieb Oliver Endriss:
> hermann pitton wrote:
> > Except of course a majority of plumbers at the same place at the same
> > time can create/propose some facts.
> 
> IMO decisions must be made where the community is, i.e. on the mailing
> list. Not at a conference, no matter whether it is at one end of the
> world or on the dark side of the moon. ;-(
> 
> To make it absolutely clear: 
> I did not leave _because_ S2API was selected.
> I left because it was done _this_way_.
> 
> Good for those, who are fine with these methods. I am not.

What the others should have done previously?

They could only wait.

What should Mauro have done better?

Say, after Manu's pull request suddenly appeared, thanks, I merge it now
over night and forget about all efforts others did.

> > If you attack people such hard as Manu did, also behind the visible
> > lines sometimes, Marcel had a copy from me concerning Mauro and did say
> > nothing, you must not wonder about people starting to defend themselves.
> 
> I consider flame wars ridiculous. I did not participate, and I will not
> participate in the future.
> 
> I believe that I know very well what is going on. (During more than 30
> years in software development I have seen all kinds of problems. I know
> how people react and why things happen.)
> 
> > For sure the dirt was not started from v4l people.
> >
> > Think it over.
> 
> Unlikely. I made this decision after sleeping over it for a few days.
> Now I feel much better.
> 
> Oliver
> 

You are the most trusted guy on linux-dvb for me.

Markus should have accept your help instead giving Mauro an ultimatum to
merge his stuff within the next 24 hours and we would have one problem
less.

Put at least a sticker on such guys like Uwe/Derek and Manu should do it
as well.

I'm open for everything fair to find a solution.

Hermann



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Re: [linux-dvb] [v4l-dvb-maintainer] [Wanted] dvb-ttpci maintainer

[VDR User]

On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 11:43 AM, hermann pitton
<hermann-pitton@arcor.de> wrote:
> Put at least a sticker on such guys like Uwe/Derek and Manu should do it
> as well.

Why do you keep insisting I am Uwe?  I am not so stop confusing me
with someone else.  As you can see here, I've been registered on this
list since March 23, 2006.

=====
from	linux-dvb-request@linuxtv.org
to	user.vdr@gmail.com
date	Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 5:10 PM
subject	Welcome to the "linux-dvb" mailing list (Digest mode)
mailing list	linux-dvb.linuxtv.org Filter messages from this mailing list
mailed-by	linuxtv.org
=====

So you continue to try to tell people I am someone else, said that I
have threatened you which I certainly have NOT.  Anyone can easily
search ALL my posts here since I first joined and see for themselves I
have clearly never done such a thing.

Why you continue making up these lies is beyond me but there's no
doubt you are making a complete idiot of yourself by doing it and I
doubt anyone with a brain in their head believes such ridiculous
nonsense.

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Re: [linux-dvb] [v4l-dvb-maintainer] [Wanted] dvb-ttpci maintainer

[hermann pitton]

Am Freitag, den 26.09.2008, 12:10 -0700 schrieb VDR User:
> On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 11:43 AM, hermann pitton
> <hermann-pitton@arcor.de> wrote:
> > Put at least a sticker on such guys like Uwe/Derek and Manu should do it
> > as well.
> 
> Why do you keep insisting I am Uwe?  I am not so stop confusing me
> with someone else.  As you can see here, I've been registered on this
> list since March 23, 2006.

Such guys like a/b/c/d/e/F*

We have no single patch from Derek. Shut up.

> =====
> from	linux-dvb-request@linuxtv.org
> to	user.vdr@gmail.com
> date	Thu, Mar 23, 2006 at 5:10 PM
> subject	Welcome to the "linux-dvb" mailing list (Digest mode)
> mailing list	linux-dvb.linuxtv.org Filter messages from this mailing list
> mailed-by	linuxtv.org
> =====
> 
> So you continue to try to tell people I am someone else, said that I
> have threatened you which I certainly have NOT.  Anyone can easily
> search ALL my posts here since I first joined and see for themselves I
> have clearly never done such a thing.
> 
> Why you continue making up these lies is beyond me but there's no
> doubt you are making a complete idiot of yourself by doing it and I
> doubt anyone with a brain in their head believes such ridiculous
> nonsense.


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Re: [linux-dvb] [v4l-dvb-maintainer] [Wanted] dvb-ttpci maintainer

[Markus Rechberger]

On Fri, Sep 26, 2008 at 8:43 PM, hermann pitton <hermann-pitton@arcor.de> wrote:
>
> Am Freitag, den 26.09.2008, 17:14 +0200 schrieb Oliver Endriss:
>> hermann pitton wrote:
>> > Except of course a majority of plumbers at the same place at the same
>> > time can create/propose some facts.
>>
>> IMO decisions must be made where the community is, i.e. on the mailing
>> list. Not at a conference, no matter whether it is at one end of the
>> world or on the dark side of the moon. ;-(
>>
>> To make it absolutely clear:
>> I did not leave _because_ S2API was selected.
>> I left because it was done _this_way_.
>>
>> Good for those, who are fine with these methods. I am not.
>
> What the others should have done previously?
>
> They could only wait.
>
> What should Mauro have done better?
>
> Say, after Manu's pull request suddenly appeared, thanks, I merge it now
> over night and forget about all efforts others did.
>
>> > If you attack people such hard as Manu did, also behind the visible
>> > lines sometimes, Marcel had a copy from me concerning Mauro and did say
>> > nothing, you must not wonder about people starting to defend themselves.
>>
>> I consider flame wars ridiculous. I did not participate, and I will not
>> participate in the future.
>>
>> I believe that I know very well what is going on. (During more than 30
>> years in software development I have seen all kinds of problems. I know
>> how people react and why things happen.)
>>
>> > For sure the dirt was not started from v4l people.
>> >
>> > Think it over.
>>
>> Unlikely. I made this decision after sleeping over it for a few days.
>> Now I feel much better.
>>
>> Oliver
>>
>
> You are the most trusted guy on linux-dvb for me.
>
> Markus should have accept your help instead giving Mauro an ultimatum to
> merge his stuff within the next 24 hours and we would have one problem
> less.
>

Hermann,

I really have to write that it was a good decision to stay away from
my code previously.
Not because I didn't follow some suggestions which seemed to be
ridiculous to me (and due
general lack of knowledge others and I had), it's because the code was
not manufacturer supported
at that time.
The supported code which redesigned alot parts of the old driver are
improved alot and those
changes were also influenced by business customers who back then
thought "we could use that work
since it states out it supports xyz". Those business customers did in
depth testing of their scenarios
and requirements and submitted valuable bugreports and or even patches
(eg VBI support, signal strength
improvements due wrong firmwares -or even wrong register settings,
mode switchover testing etc.)

I am not at all angry at anyone denying to merge the code around a
year ago since the whole situation
changed, overall the bad communication back then which definitely was
not driven by any community
rather than personalities just resulted in that overall bad
atmosphere. I think all that is far away now
and many things changed to a positive result for endusers in terms of
code quality now.

There are still some outstanding points on the list, in order to not
break other devices it requires alot
testing. It's being worked on I can write. Looking at the work which
has been done at Xceive even their
supplied code changed due the firmware upgrades and we supported them
in order to fix some smaller
bugs too.

Due the whole development I also have to write that I have alot
respect of what the Empia
windows developer is and was doing in order to support all those
possible device configurations it's a
very complicated task, and he's also on it fulltime for some good reason.

best regards,
Markus

> Put at least a sticker on such guys like Uwe/Derek and Manu should do it
> as well.
>
> I'm open for everything fair to find a solution.
>
> Hermann
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
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> v4l-dvb-maintainer@linuxtv.org
> http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/v4l-dvb-maintainer
>

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Re: [linux-dvb] [Wanted] dvb-ttpci maintainer

[Markus Rechberger]

On Wed, Sep 24, 2008 at 7:22 PM, Oliver Endriss <o.endriss@gmx.de> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> due to the way S2API was pushed through (I would call it a plot)
> there is not much motivation left to spend my time with DVB.
>
> So - if someone wants to take over the dvb-ttpci drivers he should speak
> up now. The sooner the better.
>

Hi Oliver,

please also comment the other thread (DVB API improvements) not only
Mauro who has the wheel in his hands
is looking at it now.

Markus

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Re: [linux-dvb] [Wanted] dvb-ttpci maintainer

[Oliver Endriss]

Oliver Endriss wrote:
> ...

I would appreciate if people would stop the flame wars - at least
in this thread.

It was not my objective to start another thread which is worth to be
redirected to /dev/null.

Oliver

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