[linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card

[linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card

[Daniel Dalton]

Hi,

Could someone please let me know what I have to do to get my msi 5580
usb digital tv tuner working with linux?
What drivers do I need? What software, what should I do to test it and
is it possible to use the remote once it is up and running?

Finally, I'm vission impared, so are there any programs for controling
the tv either command line based or gtk? I can't use qt applications.
If qt is my only option it's fine, I'll figure out a way for handling
this once the card is working.

Also, does this card allow for reccording?

Thanks very much for any help.

Cheers,
Daniel.

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Re: [linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card

[BOUWSMA Barry]

On Tue, 20 Jan 2009, Daniel Dalton wrote:

> Could someone please let me know what I have to do to get my msi 5580
> usb digital tv tuner working with linux?

It looks like it may be supported by the following dvb-usb:

config DVB_USB_M920X
        tristate "Uli m920x DVB-T USB2.0 support"
        depends on DVB_USB
        select DVB_MT352 if !DVB_FE_CUSTOMISE
        select MEDIA_TUNER_QT1010 if !DVB_FE_CUSTOMISE
        select MEDIA_TUNER_TDA827X if !DVB_FE_CUSTOMISE
        select DVB_TDA1004X if !DVB_FE_CUSTOMISE
        help
          Say Y here to support the MSI Mega Sky 580 USB2.0 DVB-T receiver.
          Currently, only devices with a product id of
          "DTV USB MINI" (in cold state) are supported.
          Firmware required.

(Not sure if the next-to-last line is accurate; the code lists a 
few devices)

One thing you can do, is to plug your device into the USB port
(if you haven't done so already), and check the output of
`lsusb' for your device vendor and product IDs, to see if
these match those in the source code.


> What drivers do I need? What software, what should I do to test it and
> is it possible to use the remote once it is up and running?

I'm unsure of your level as a beginner, expert, or master of
the known linux kernel (except for that weird DVB code), so
I can't say much -- you'll need at least the module for m920x.

The source code includes remote control keycodes; make of
that what you will.

I'm not so much an end-user (fnar fnar) and instead use my
machines as headless servers, and as such I use basic tools
that are far from user-friendly for everything.


> Finally, I'm vission impared, so are there any programs for controling
> the tv either command line based or gtk? I can't use qt applications.

Similarly for this reason, someone else will have to offer
help on convenient end-user applications.  (I can offer
good commandline suggestions, but `gtk' and `qt' have on
meaning to me)


> Also, does this card allow for reccording?

All supported cards deliver the digital payload to linux,
which can then be recorded by writing it to a file, or
passed to an application for direct processing (listening
and/or viewing), so, yes.

It's up to the application to make this convenient for
the user..


So, my suggestion is, plug it in, and see how far you get :-)

barry bouwsma

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Re: [linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card

[Antti Palosaari]

Daniel Dalton wrote:
> Could someone please let me know what I have to do to get my msi 5580
> usb digital tv tuner working with linux?
> What drivers do I need? What software, what should I do to test it and
> is it possible to use the remote once it is up and running?

It should work with v4l-dvb / Kernel newer than about two years. 
However, tuner performance is not very good. With weak signal it works 
better than strong. All remote keys are not working because driver does 
not upload IR-table to the chip.

> Finally, I'm vission impared, so are there any programs for controling
> the tv either command line based or gtk? I can't use qt applications.
> If qt is my only option it's fine, I'll figure out a way for handling
> this once the card is working.

Totem, Me-TV, Kaffeine, mplayer, Xine.

> Also, does this card allow for reccording?

yes

Antti
-- 
http://palosaari.fi/

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Re: [linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card

[Daniel Dalton]

On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 10:59:27AM +0100, BOUWSMA Barry wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Jan 2009, Daniel Dalton wrote:
> 
> > Could someone please let me know what I have to do to get my msi 5580
> > usb digital tv tuner working with linux?
> 
> It looks like it may be supported by the following dvb-usb:
> 
> config DVB_USB_M920X
>         tristate "Uli m920x DVB-T USB2.0 support"
>         depends on DVB_USB
>         select DVB_MT352 if !DVB_FE_CUSTOMISE
>         select MEDIA_TUNER_QT1010 if !DVB_FE_CUSTOMISE
>         select MEDIA_TUNER_TDA827X if !DVB_FE_CUSTOMISE
>         select DVB_TDA1004X if !DVB_FE_CUSTOMISE
>         help
>           Say Y here to support the MSI Mega Sky 580 USB2.0 DVB-T receiver.
>           Currently, only devices with a product id of
>           "DTV USB MINI" (in cold state) are supported.
>           Firmware required.
> 
> (Not sure if the next-to-last line is accurate; the code lists a 
> few devices)
> 

Hi Barry,

Does this mean I have to build the kernel?
If so, how do I get to this part of the setup what's it under in make
menuconfig for example?

> One thing you can do, is to plug your device into the USB port
> (if you haven't done so already), and check the output of
> `lsusb' for your device vendor and product IDs, to see if
> these match those in the source code.

What source code? The stuff you pasted above?

> 
> 
> > What drivers do I need? What software, what should I do to test it and
> > is it possible to use the remote once it is up and running?
> 
> I'm unsure of your level as a beginner, expert, or master of
> the known linux kernel (except for that weird DVB code), so

I'm not bad in a console, but I'm mostly a home user I just use it for
work music browsing the web etc, and know a bit more. I can compile and
patch stuff, and know a tiny bit of c, so thats basically my level.
(But I'm not a programmer)

> I can't say much -- you'll need at least the module for m920x.

So I just recompile my kernel?

> > Finally, I'm vission impared, so are there any programs for controling
> > the tv either command line based or gtk? I can't use qt applications.
> 
> Similarly for this reason, someone else will have to offer
> help on convenient end-user applications.  (I can offer
> good commandline suggestions, but `gtk' and `qt' have on
> meaning to me)

Can you recommend any command line programs? I love using the cli, and
if possible I would avoid using gnome.
Can mplayer control the tv?

So, I have to build the right module for my card? Then I need to
configure it and get it working with some kind of tv program?
Is that right?

If so, how do I find the part in the kernel config to build the module
for my tv card, and do I build it as modules or build it into the
kernel?

Thanks very much,

Daniel

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Re: [linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card

[Daniel Dalton]

On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 01:30:57PM +0200, Antti Palosaari wrote:
> Daniel Dalton wrote:
> > Could someone please let me know what I have to do to get my msi 5580
> > usb digital tv tuner working with linux?
> > What drivers do I need? What software, what should I do to test it and
> > is it possible to use the remote once it is up and running?
> 
> It should work with v4l-dvb / Kernel newer than about two years. 

So... My 2.6.26-1 kernel out of aptitude (debian lenny), should work?

> However, tuner performance is not very good. With weak signal it works 
> better than strong. All remote keys are not working because driver does 
> not upload IR-table to the chip.

ok

> 
> > Finally, I'm vission impared, so are there any programs for controling
> > the tv either command line based or gtk? I can't use qt applications.
> > If qt is my only option it's fine, I'll figure out a way for handling
> > this once the card is working.
> 
> Totem, Me-TV, Kaffeine, mplayer, Xine.

Mplayer works with this card? Great!

How would I begin configuring it for mplayer then?

Thanks very much for your help.

Cheers,
Daniel.

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Re: [linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card

[Antti Palosaari]

Daniel Dalton wrote:
> On Tue, Jan 20, 2009 at 01:30:57PM +0200, Antti Palosaari wrote:
>> Daniel Dalton wrote:
>>> Could someone please let me know what I have to do to get my msi 5580
>>> usb digital tv tuner working with linux?
>>> What drivers do I need? What software, what should I do to test it and
>>> is it possible to use the remote once it is up and running?
>> It should work with v4l-dvb / Kernel newer than about two years. 
> 
> So... My 2.6.26-1 kernel out of aptitude (debian lenny), should work?

Yes, should work out of the box. No need to install any driver, driver 
is included in your Kernel.

There is two versions of MSI Megasky 580. Both looks similar, but have 
still different USB-bridge chip inside. Both are supported. The older 
one uses m9206 chip and newer gl861 chip. Older needs also firmware. 
Sometimes older is called as 5580 and newer 5581, number goes from 
USB-product ID.

>> However, tuner performance is not very good. With weak signal it works 
>> better than strong. All remote keys are not working because driver does 
>> not upload IR-table to the chip.
> 
> ok

I have newer one, gl861 5581, and this is the version which have remote 
problem. I think older Megasky have all remote buttons functional.

>>> Finally, I'm vission impared, so are there any programs for controling
>>> the tv either command line based or gtk? I can't use qt applications.
>>> If qt is my only option it's fine, I'll figure out a way for handling
>>> this once the card is working.
>> Totem, Me-TV, Kaffeine, mplayer, Xine.
> 
> Mplayer works with this card? Great!
> 
> How would I begin configuring it for mplayer then?

I think mplayer is not very user friendly, try Kaffeine or Me-TV 
instead. Kaffeine have own channel scanner so it is very easy to 
configure. Otherwise you will need initial tuning file and then scan to 
get channels.conf. Try google for more info.

regards
Antti

Re: [linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card

[Daniel Dalton]

Hi Antti,

On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 12:46:32AM +0200, Antti Palosaari wrote:
> Yes, should work out of the box. No need to install any driver, driver 
> is included in your Kernel.

/dev/dvb/adapter0/ is created. so does this mean the right modules have
been loaded?

> >> However, tuner performance is not very good. With weak signal it works 
> >> better than strong. All remote keys are not working because driver does 
> >> not upload IR-table to the chip.
> > 
> > ok
> 
> I have newer one, gl861 5581, and this is the version which have remote 
> problem. I think older Megasky have all remote buttons functional.

Ah good

> 
> > Mplayer works with this card? Great!
> > 
> > How would I begin configuring it for mplayer then?
> 
> I think mplayer is not very user friendly, try Kaffeine or Me-TV 
> instead. Kaffeine have own channel scanner so it is very easy to 
> configure. Otherwise you will need initial tuning file and then scan to 
> get channels.conf. Try google for more info.

I've been googling, and have played with w_scan and me-tv.
Kaffeine unfortunately is qt and won't work with braille/speech, but
me-tv does. So I got sighted help to scan for channels in kaffeine, the
scan didn't find any channels.
Next, I ran the w_scan program, and that as well failed to find any
channels. Finally, I ran me-tv and that as well failed. (I selected my
location for me-tv).

So, how do I get w_scan or me-tv to find some channels? It's probably
not worth talking about kaffeine as I won't be able to use this. I'm
plugging my usb receiver into a tv connection in my home which a
standard tv would plug into.

Any ideas?

Thanks very much for your help,

Daniel.


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Re: [linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card

[BOUWSMA Barry]

Hi Daniel, I see that while I was asleep (sleep GOOOD), you
received more feedback, so I shall try to respond appropriately
to parts of all these mails...

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009, Daniel Dalton wrote:

> Does this mean I have to build the kernel?
> If so, how do I get to this part of the setup what's it under in make
> menuconfig for example?

Not necessarily -- as it turned out, your distribution
seems to include all that you needed pre-built for you.

However, to answer your question -- as part of the long
and tedious process of configuring a new kernel, eventually
you will reach an item concerning video and related
multimedia devices, or something similar.  (It has been
years since I last went through a from-nothing kernel
configuration, so I remember almost nothing about it.)
Your device would be listed as one of the many that are
available.

Sorry that I am not being more precise -- you do not now
need to do this, so I am skipping the details yet offering
an overview which may be helpful to you in the future.


> > One thing you can do, is to plug your device into the USB port
> > (if you haven't done so already), and check the output of
> > `lsusb' for your device vendor and product IDs, to see if
> > these match those in the source code.
> 
> What source code? The stuff you pasted above?

This is no longer important, but you asked, so maybe it
can help you in the future...

The source code I refer to is that for the linux kernel,
and for your device, it would be found in
<path-to-your-source>/drivers/media/dvb/dvb-usb in
files m920x.*
Here you need to replace <path-to-your-source> with
whatever the standard is on your system -- it could be
/usr/src/linux-2.6.26 or something completely different --
I actually have no experience with the different
distributions, because I keep my own copy of Linus'
source tree and make snapshots from that.

Note that at present, you do *not* need to do this, as
your distribution has the binary bits you need.  But
if your curiosity makes you want to learn more about
how you can build a new kernel from source, I am not
going to try to stop you -- on the contrary, I will
encourage you to learn as much as you like!


> > I'm unsure of your level as a beginner, expert, or master of

> I'm not bad in a console, but I'm mostly a home user I just use it for
> work music browsing the web etc, and know a bit more. I can compile and
> patch stuff, and know a tiny bit of c, so thats basically my level.

Thanks, I will try to tune my advice to your level,
yet perhaps also keep in mind someone who googles up
this reply, with a different level of experience...


> > > Finally, I'm vission impared, so are there any programs for controling

> > Similarly for this reason, someone else will have to offer
> > help on convenient end-user applications.  (I can offer
> > good commandline suggestions, but `gtk' and `qt' have on
> > meaning to me)
> 
> Can you recommend any command line programs? I love using the cli, and
> if possible I would avoid using gnome.
> Can mplayer control the tv?

Yes, `mplayer' can do this, but it requires a bit of work
and perhaps some understanding.  Let me explain the latter...

`mplayer' is a wonderful all-purpose swiss-army-knife type
of media player, that achieves flexibility, but may not
seem as polished to the beginner.  The `man' page alone is
often enough to cause a beginner's eyes to glaze over and
for them to start going ``wibble'' before they even get to
the interesting options.

Due to the flexibility of `mplayer', it needs to try to
determine the one out of many many different video formats
which it supports, which takes some time when handling a
broadcast stream.  This results in very slow channel
change times, compared with, say, a good hardware-based
consumer product.

There are ways to speed this up, because I know that in
my experience with broadcast media, I am only going to be
seeing (presently) an MPEG Transport Stream from my DVB
device, and that will be carrying a payload that will be
MPEG 2 video (or maybe H.264), and Layer II or AC3 audio.

I have built a small-footprint version of `mplayer' by
manually editing the configuration to only include the
code for the video, audio, and container formats that
I expect to use that version for (in my case, verifying
the integrity of recorded broadcast streams, but not
actually sending the output to any video display).

The other thing which can be done, is to call `mplayer'
with the commandline options which tell it what demux
to use (mpeg ts) and which video and audio codecs to
use, which skips most of the autodetection process.
This probably will speed up changing channels, to the
speed of dedicated utilities that handle a single
format, and essentially instantly start to deliver the
output when, in my example, I tune into a multicast
audio stream.



Now, back to using `mplayer':

It works from a list of channels, which you will need
to create using a different utility.  It then uses
simple keyboard input to cycle through the list of
channels (I want to think that `k' and something else
are used, but I honestly no longer remember), which
is not too bad when you have only a few channels
available.

(Unfortunately, in my experience, older versions of
`mplayer' have had some problems with keyboard input
in some cases, such as after suspending the program,
and perhaps when tuning after coming across more than
one radio-only service, if I remember.  But I have not
built and tried a new `mplayer' for some months...)

Read on, as you have already tried without success to
get a list of channels...


> > Totem, Me-TV, Kaffeine, mplayer, Xine.
> 
> Mplayer works with this card? Great!

Also, I have not had experience with the first three
applications which Antti listed, but I have used
`xine' as well as `vlc', but I cannot remember how
well they worked for me.

Except for `vlc' trying to listen to the multicast
audio stream, where some blasted graphical display
was invoked and took more than 100% of my CPU and
caused audio dropouts, and I saw no way to disable that
eye-candy and drop CPU to a near-zero level even on
my ten-year-old machines.


> How would I begin configuring it for mplayer then?

You need to create a `channels.conf' list of channels
that you then place under your ~/.mplayer/ directory.
Then if you want to start with a particular channel,
you will invoke `mplayer' something like
`mplayer dvb://"Channel foo" '
or simply as `mplayer dvb:// ' and then change channels
to reach the one of interest.

I am going to assume that your distribution already has
`mplayer' available, and that it has been built with
DVB support.  But this may be wrong, and it may be that
you need to download the `mplayer' source, configure it
to enable DVB support, and then let it build.


> On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 12:46:32AM +0200, Antti Palosaari wrote:
> > Yes, should work out of the box. No need to install any driver, driver 
> > is included in your Kernel.
> 
> /dev/dvb/adapter0/ is created. so does this mean the right modules have
> been loaded?

Yes, everything is fine, and you should not need to do
anything building a new kernel or new modules.


> > configure. Otherwise you will need initial tuning file and then scan to 
> > get channels.conf. Try google for more info.
> 
> I've been googling, and have played with w_scan and me-tv.
> Kaffeine unfortunately is qt and won't work with braille/speech, but
> me-tv does. So I got sighted help to scan for channels in kaffeine, the
> scan didn't find any channels.
> Next, I ran the w_scan program, and that as well failed to find any
> channels. Finally, I ran me-tv and that as well failed. (I selected my
> location for me-tv).

It may help if you use `scan' which is part of the `dvb-apps'
suite of programs.  This makes use of an initial tuning file,
and there should be one already available for your location.

I vaguely remember reading that in Australia, use is made of
either an offset to the frequency, or of a bandwidth that is
different from the rest of the world, which has led to
problems with certain firmware.  And in fact, looking at the
initial scanfiles available for .au, both appear to be so:

# Australia / Melbourne (Mt Dandenong transmitters)
# T freq bw fec_hi fec_lo mod transmission-mode guard-interval hierarchy
# ABC
T 226500000 7MHz 3/4 NONE QAM64 8k 1/16 NONE
# Seven
T 177500000 7MHz 3/4 NONE QAM64 8k 1/16 NONE
# Nine
T 191625000 7MHz 3/4 NONE QAM64 8k 1/16 NONE
# Ten
T 219500000 7MHz 3/4 NONE QAM64 8k 1/16 NONE
# SBS
T 536625000 7MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/8 NONE


Make certain that you select the correct initial scan file
for your location, available as part of the `dvb-apps'
package -- here you probably will do best to obtain the
latest source via `hg' because the scanfiles may not be
up-to-date as included in a distribution, although the
binary should be mostly unchanged.


> So, how do I get w_scan or me-tv to find some channels? It's probably

While I have the `w_scan' source mirrored, I actually
have not taken any time to look at it :-)  Perhaps it
is not able to find frequencies such as the above...


> not worth talking about kaffeine as I won't be able to use this. I'm
> plugging my usb receiver into a tv connection in my home which a
> standard tv would plug into.

If you continue to have problems, then later I will ask
for information to help troubleshoot -- such as your
location, and whether a normal digital TV can receive
signals from the same connection.  But I am hoping that
use of `scan' alone will give you results.


> Thanks very much for your help,

Happy to help.  If I have done anything in my replies
that has not worked with your vision, then please do not
hesitate to give me feedback, so that I can change my
way of thinking.


barry bouwsma

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Re: [linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card

[Daniel Dalton]

Hi Barry,

> you will reach an item concerning video and related
> multimedia devices, or something similar.  (It has been
> years since I last went through a from-nothing kernel
> configuration, so I remember almost nothing about it.)
> Your device would be listed as one of the many that are
> available.
> 
> Sorry that I am not being more precise -- you do not now
> need to do this, so I am skipping the details yet offering
> an overview which may be helpful to you in the future.

Thanks for that, it's good to know, yep, I've built kernels, using make
oldconfig many times for a speakup patch i use on my laptop, but that's
nice to know.

> can help you in the future...
> 
> The source code I refer to is that for the linux kernel,
> and for your device, it would be found in
> <path-to-your-source>/drivers/media/dvb/dvb-usb in
> files m920x.*

Ah, that makes sense.

> Now, back to using `mplayer':
> 
> It works from a list of channels, which you will need
> to create using a different utility.  It then uses
> simple keyboard input to cycle through the list of
> channels (I want to think that `k' and something else
> are used, but I honestly no longer remember), which
> is not too bad when you have only a few channels
> available.

Excellent, I'll look that up when I get to this point. :-)

> > How would I begin configuring it for mplayer then?
> 
> You need to create a `channels.conf' list of channels
> that you then place under your ~/.mplayer/ directory.
> Then if you want to start with a particular channel,
> you will invoke `mplayer' something like
> `mplayer dvb://"Channel foo" '
> or simply as `mplayer dvb:// ' and then change channels
> to reach the one of interest.

Ah, ok.

> 
> I am going to assume that your distribution already has
> `mplayer' available, and that it has been built with

It does. 

> DVB support.  But this may be wrong, and it may be that

Not sure about this one.

> It may help if you use `scan' which is part of the `dvb-apps'
> suite of programs.  This makes use of an initial tuning file,
> and there should be one already available for your location.

Um... Ok... Where should this file be located, and am I meant to
download it from somewhere?
So does it use this file to create a suitable channels.conf file for
mplayer?

> Make certain that you select the correct initial scan file
> for your location, available as part of the `dvb-apps'
> package -- here you probably will do best to obtain the
> latest source via `hg' because the scanfiles may not be
> up-to-date as included in a distribution, although the
> binary should be mostly unchanged.

Sorry... what's hg?
And once I grab the latest source what should I do to run this scan to
create channels.conf? And where do I find the file for my location?

> signals from the same connection.  But I am hoping that

I should check this your right.

> Happy to help.  If I have done anything in my replies
> that has not worked with your vision, then please do not
> hesitate to give me feedback, so that I can change my
> way of thinking.

Nup, you have done an awesome job.

Thanks very much mate for all your help, and I'm very sorry about all
the questions.

Have a good one

Cheers,

Daniel


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Re: [linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card

[BOUWSMA Barry]

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009, Daniel Dalton wrote:

> > you will reach an item concerning video and related
> > multimedia devices, or something similar.  (It has been
> > years since I last went through a from-nothing kernel
> > configuration, so I remember almost nothing about it.)

> Thanks for that, it's good to know, yep, I've built kernels, using make
> oldconfig many times for a speakup patch i use on my laptop, but that's

Excellent, `oldconfig' is the way I build newer or modified
kernels myself.

I have always stripped my kernels down to the bare minimum
needed, including modules for hardware I don't yet have or
don't know about.  So often I need to enable a disabled
device.  It's easy to do, and I'll give you an example, if
you want to try this and see how it works:

Here is the latest .config file I have on a random machine
which includes your device as a module (in case I find one
that someone has thrown out their window, knowing that is
more likely than that I'll buy a new machine with PCIe or
something)...

CONFIG_DVB_USB_CXUSB=m
CONFIG_DVB_USB_M920X=m
CONFIG_DVB_USB_GL861=m

If I simply delete the middle line, save this .config
file, and `make O=... oldconfig' I will be asked whether
I want to add support for the m920x.

If I read upwards from this point in .config, I see some
comments that this is reached through:
# Supported USB Adapters
# Multimedia drivers
# Multimedia core support
# Multimedia devices


> > Now, back to using `mplayer':
> > 
> > It works from a list of channels, which you will need
> > to create using a different utility.  It then uses
> > simple keyboard input to cycle through the list of
> > channels (I want to think that `k' and something else

> Excellent, I'll look that up when I get to this point. :-)

If I may ask, and I do hope that you do not mind me
asking, but as I recall, you wrote that you did have to
get help when using one program to try to tune...

How is your level of vision?  Are you able to make use
of a video image on your display (the television picture),
or do you only use an audio-description soundtrack, such
as is provided by the larger british and public german
broadcasters, among others?

I ask this in case you might be better served by a radio
application, or even simple commandline scripts that tune
the audio from the six or so available channels, and do
not need to bother with a full media player, and so make
it much simpler -- my listening to the multicast audio
now, is done by three or four building-block utilities
piped together at the sending end, and two simple
commandline utilities at my listening end, with no need
to use a massive, bloated media player (except to
check compatibility).

Naturally, if you have some vision, then a full media
player like `mplayer' will be a better solution...


> > I am going to assume that your distribution already has
> > `mplayer' available, and that it has been built with
> 
> It does. 
> 
> > DVB support.  But this may be wrong, and it may be that
> 
> Not sure about this one.

You will know when you try it...
spiff% mplayer dvb://
will give you an error.  If it cannot find `channels.conf'
then it has DVB support...  But if you have a `channels.conf'
file and still get an error, then probably you will need to
build a new version.  You will see when you reach that
point...


> > It may help if you use `scan' which is part of the `dvb-apps'
> > suite of programs.  This makes use of an initial tuning file,
> > and there should be one already available for your location.
> 
> Um... Ok... Where should this file be located, and am I meant to
> download it from somewhere?

It may already be included in your distribution, perhaps
in /usr/share/somewhere...  But it may be fastest if you
download the latest version.

First of all, do you have a program called `scan' or `dvbscan'?
beer@ralph:~$ which scan
/usr/local/bin/scan
beer@ralph:~$ which dvbscan
/usr/local/bin/dvbscan

If not, then you either need to install a binary package,
or download and build the source.  I will assume you do
have `scan' available, to make it easier  :-)


> So does it use this [initial scan] file to create a suitable
> channels.conf file for mplayer?

That is correct.  The scanfile contains the tuning data
for the available frequencies and transmitters in your
area; from this `scan' tunes these frequencies, and
finds the up-to-date available services.  This list of
services is then written out to stdout, or to a file which
can be used as the channels.conf tuning file for mplayer
or several other utilities (such as `tzap', part of dvb-apps).


> > Make certain that you select the correct initial scan file
> > for your location, available as part of the `dvb-apps'
> > package -- here you probably will do best to obtain the
> > latest source via `hg' because the scanfiles may not be

> Sorry... what's hg?

`hg' refers to Mercurial, the source control system used
by the dvb-apps package, as well as the linux-dvb kernel module.

Details about this can be found at http://linuxtv.org/  somewhere.


> And once I grab the latest source what should I do to run this scan to
> create channels.conf? And where do I find the file for my location?

If you already have `scan' in your $PATH (see above),
then you can probably use the following URL...
http://linuxtv.org/hg/dvb-apps/file/e91138b9bdaa/util/scan/dvb-t/

The result is a long list (722 items in my local copy)
but the au-* files are at the start.  Pick the one(s)
closest to your location.

Either by invoking `scan --help' or `scan' alone, you
should see a usage message.  Basically, you need to tell
it to use the au-Whatever file which you downloaded.


> Thanks very much mate for all your help, and I'm very sorry about all
> the questions.

No need to be sorry.  If I can answer your questions,
than that should mean I have an understanding of what
you need to know, and how things work.  Or that I'm
good enough at BS to find work somewhere.

If I cannot, then my experience is not broad enough
(which I readily admit), and I hope someone will fill
in the missing bits.

If I have done my job, then I should have not only
given or hinted at the answers, but also have given
the information needed to find these answers as well.


Anway, feel free to ask more questions, either about
specific problems you have trying to scan or tune, or
more general questions in case you want to know more
about some things I have tried not to answer in detail.


thanks,
barry bouwsma

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Re: [linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card

[Daniel Dalton]

On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 10:30:05AM +0100, BOUWSMA Barry wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Jan 2009, Daniel Dalton wrote:
> 
> Here is the latest .config file I have on a random machine
> which includes your device as a module (in case I find one
> that someone has thrown out their window, knowing that is
> more likely than that I'll buy a new machine with PCIe or
> something)...
> 
> CONFIG_DVB_USB_CXUSB=m
> CONFIG_DVB_USB_M920X=m
> CONFIG_DVB_USB_GL861=m
> 
> If I simply delete the middle line, save this .config
> file, and `make O=... oldconfig' I will be asked whether
> I want to add support for the m920x.
> 

Hey! That's very cool, thanks for the tip.

> > > Now, back to using `mplayer':
> > > 
> > > It works from a list of channels, which you will need
> > > to create using a different utility.  It then uses
> > > simple keyboard input to cycle through the list of
> > > channels (I want to think that `k' and something else
> 
> > Excellent, I'll look that up when I get to this point. :-)
> 
> If I may ask, and I do hope that you do not mind me

No, it's not at all a problem.

> asking, but as I recall, you wrote that you did have to
> get help when using one program to try to tune...
> 
> How is your level of vision?  Are you able to make use
> of a video image on your display (the television picture),
> or do you only use an audio-description soundtrack, such

I'm almost totally blind, although I do have a little bit of useful
vision, not enough for making out picture easily on a computer
monitor. But yeah pretty much totally. I use a braille terminal to
access my linux box, so yeah, not even enough vision to read, but got to
admit, it does come in handy when walking and for orientation.
But, it just helps, can't rely on it of course. :-)

> I ask this in case you might be better served by a radio
> application, or even simple commandline scripts that tune
> the audio from the six or so available channels, and do
> not need to bother with a full media player, and so make
> it much simpler -- my listening to the multicast audio

Hmmm, yes, I guess if I just got the audio from the tv network that
could work, although when having friends or family around and watching
tv it might be good to have picture.

> You will know when you try it...
> spiff% mplayer dvb://
> will give you an error.  If it cannot find `channels.conf'
> then it has DVB support...  But if you have a `channels.conf'

Yep, then my version  has dvb support.

> > Um... Ok... Where should this file be located, and am I meant to
> > download it from somewhere?
> 
> It may already be included in your distribution, perhaps
> in /usr/share/somewhere...  But it may be fastest if you
> download the latest version.
> 
> First of all, do you have a program called `scan' or `dvbscan'?
> beer@ralph:~$ which scan

I have both, sorry I should have said.

> If you already have `scan' in your $PATH (see above),
> then you can probably use the following URL...
> http://linuxtv.org/hg/dvb-apps/file/e91138b9bdaa/util/scan/dvb-t/
> 
> The result is a long list (722 items in my local copy)
> but the au-* files are at the start.  Pick the one(s)
> closest to your location.
> 
> Either by invoking `scan --help' or `scan' alone, you
> should see a usage message.  Basically, you need to tell
> it to use the au-Whatever file which you downloaded.
> 

Alright, so, I downloaded the file placed it in /tmp, gave it +rw
permissions and ran:
sudo scan /tmp/au-melbourne
The scan help didn't make a lot of sense to me, but that seemed to do
some stuff like recognise the file, but it found no channels. Are there
any options I should have used? Is the default output format correct?
Or should I start checking my cables and tv points?

Hey, one other thing, and sorry I know it's really OT, but you said you
were a console guy. Have you found a command line web browser with
javascript support? Like how do u get around the javascript thing?
Unfortunately I have been using firefox for this reason...

Thanks very much for all your help, it's greatly appreciated.

Cheers,

Daniel


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Re: [linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card

[Antti Palosaari]

Daniel Dalton wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 21, 2009 at 12:46:32AM +0200, Antti Palosaari wrote:
>> Yes, should work out of the box. No need to install any driver, driver 
>> is included in your Kernel.
> 
> /dev/dvb/adapter0/ is created. so does this mean the right modules have
> been loaded?

Yes, drivers and firmware loaded. It should be all functional.

> I've been googling, and have played with w_scan and me-tv.
> Kaffeine unfortunately is qt and won't work with braille/speech, but
> me-tv does. So I got sighted help to scan for channels in kaffeine, the
> scan didn't find any channels.
> Next, I ran the w_scan program, and that as well failed to find any
> channels. Finally, I ran me-tv and that as well failed. (I selected my
> location for me-tv).
> 
> So, how do I get w_scan or me-tv to find some channels? It's probably
> not worth talking about kaffeine as I won't be able to use this. I'm
> plugging my usb receiver into a tv connection in my home which a
> standard tv would plug into.
> 
> Any ideas?

I think the problem is poor QT1010 tuning performance. You cannot do 
much for that now. I recommended to get other stick.

regards
Antti

Re: [linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card

[BOUWSMA Barry]

On Wed, 21 Jan 2009, Daniel Dalton wrote:

> > I ask this in case you might be better served by a radio
> > application, or even simple commandline scripts that tune
> > the audio from the six or so available channels, and do
> > not need to bother with a full media player, and so make

> Hmmm, yes, I guess if I just got the audio from the tv network that
> could work, although when having friends or family around and watching
> tv it might be good to have picture.

Yes, I was thinking about having the video for others, if
it would not be so useful for you.

Anyway, I think you will be able to use `mplayer', although
if I were in your situation (sorry, I am mostly sighted, but
with age, I can be easily called ``blind-as-a-bat'' -- I am
nearsighted, which is a blessing when working on micro-sized
electronics, or when looking at details, or when counting the
number of baby spiders (harmless, the nice thing about having
european spiders adopt me as their keeper) currently resident
in my pot-of-winter-weeds, so anything more than 20cm away
requires glasses, but unfortunately, I have lost flexibility
so that while I can see several metres away, I cannot focus
on a notebook monitor or nearby screen until I go out and
get myself another pair of glasses for working and reading,
and so a nice 25x80 console on a 22" widescreen monitor is
wonderful regardless of my orientation, state of wakefulness,
or state of drunkenness.  The 1680x1050 resolution under X11
can be painful at times.)

But I digressed there...

Anyway, for cases where you do not need a display of the
video, and only want to listen while you work on other
things, and do not need to change between channels all the
time, you can easily write a quick script to tune and play
the audio.  If you still wanted to be able to change between
channels easily, I'm sure it would be no problem to write a
wrapper script to do this.  Then you can pull out `mplayer'
when you need it.

Anyway, here is an example (which is for listening to one
radio signal from satellite here, but the principle is
the same -- the TV audio can be thought of as a radio
signal, and tuning via DVB-T is almost the same as tuning
via satellite -- because I don't have the scripts to tune
audio from DVB-T on the machine I'm working on)...

#!/bin/dash

. /home/beer/sbin/dvb-defs OPERA1

if [ x"$OPERA1" = "x -c 7 " ]
then
        echo Cannot make recording, Opera-1 DVB-S receiver not found!  >&2
        exit 8
fi


/home/beer/bin/dvbstream  -c 1  ${OPERA1}  -T  \
    -s 27500   -p v   -f 12525   -I 2   -D 4   -o  \
    -a 187   $*  \
     |  /home/beer/bin/ts_audio_es_demux  \
      /dev/stdin /dev/stdout /dev/null | nice  /usr/bin/mpg123  -v  ${MPGARGS} -



Basically, this is adapted from the templates I use for
recording programming to disk from the commandline, or
from `cron'.  It checks that my tuner is present (left
over from the recording usage), and uses `dvbstream'
which performs the tuning, the following line has the
tuning parameters, with the next line giving the PID
needed to identify the audio (in this example, it's a
newer radio service from Czech Radio).

This is piped into a utility which converts the Transport
Stream into an MPEG audio stream, which basically is
just removing a few extra bits from the stream, and
that is a simple audio stream that plays easily in any
of a number of mpeg audio decoder-players, such as `mpg123'.



> Alright, so, I downloaded the file placed it in /tmp, gave it +rw
> permissions and ran:
> sudo scan /tmp/au-melbourne

Okay, first of all, you should be able to do this as a
normal user -- not `sudo' (sorry, I've been spending too
much time reading Slashdot where people have been discussing
the vulnerability of Linux users to malicious worm- and
virus-like things, and I've learned that there seems to
be a tendency for users to `sudo' when it's not really
necessary...  That is, you can shoot a big hole in your
foot with `sudo', while without, you can still cause
damage, but the hole won't be as big)


> The scan help didn't make a lot of sense to me, but that seemed to do
> some stuff like recognise the file, but it found no channels. Are there

Okay, here is where the troubleshooting starts  :-)

But first, one useful option would be `-v' to verbosely
scan, which can show some details about why you cannot
tune.


> any options I should have used? Is the default output format correct?
> Or should I start checking my cables and tv points?

Yes, this would be where you start to verify that you
can receive the same DVB-T channels when connecting a
different receiver to your connection.

That is, if `scan' gives no useful output with a scanfile
that you know should be correct (and you are welcome to
post the results of scanning, either in private mail or
cut down to the attempts for two or three frequencies to
the mailing list), then there may be a problem outside
of your USB tuner and computer.


> Hey, one other thing, and sorry I know it's really OT, but you said you
> were a console guy. Have you found a command line web browser with
> javascript support? Like how do u get around the javascript thing?

Out of habit, I do all my browsing with `lynx' (my fingers
are too ingrained to spend too much time with `elinks' or
anything else, so it's just habit, not too much a choice).

My attitude to sites with javascript is that I don't bother
with them, as I'm searching for info in text format (ASCII
PR0N FOR THE MASSES!  mplayer supports aalib!  no need for
me to fire up X to watch my pr0n!), and over a slow link,
though when needed, I do download a good JPEG or PDF file.

Unfortunately, that's not a real solution, and I did have
to install Iceape to access the configuration of my router,
as I'm too cheap to buy one with a ssh interface that
allows access to the nvram settings.  And that doesn't
help you much.  While I can be a luddite and refuse to
browse sites that require javascript, particularly for
simple text info that other sites deliver without script,
saying my time would be better spent drinking beer and
browsing small breweries that don't need script, the
Real World will pass me by.

I'd love to kick these web developers into being forced
to using a text-only broswer to review their pages.  And
I'd like a world peace, free broadband pr0n, and a pony.

Sorry I can't help much there...


barry bouwsma

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Re: [linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card

[Daniel Dalton]

> things, and do not need to change between channels all the
> time, you can easily write a quick script to tune and play
> the audio.  If you still wanted to be able to change between
> channels easily, I'm sure it would be no problem to write a
> wrapper script to do this.  Then you can pull out `mplayer'

Hi Barry,

I'm chopping out the script, just to cut the size of this reply
down. But, thanks very much for sending the script, it looks good, and
yep, I think I'll find that very useful once I get tv going on my box.

> > Alright, so, I downloaded the file placed it in /tmp, gave it +rw
> > permissions and ran:
> > sudo scan /tmp/au-melbourne
> 
> Okay, first of all, you should be able to do this as a
> normal user -- not `sudo' (sorry, I've been spending too
> much time reading Slashdot where people have been discussing

Ah, thanks for the tip, yep I'm in a bad habit of that, thanks for the
reminder :-)

> But first, one useful option would be `-v' to verbosely
> scan, which can show some details about why you cannot
> tune.
> 

Please see the mail I sent directly to you off-list.

> That is, if `scan' gives no useful output with a scanfile
> that you know should be correct (and you are welcome to
> post the results of scanning, either in private mail or
> cut down to the attempts for two or three frequencies to
> the mailing list), then there may be a problem outside
> of your USB tuner and computer.

I'm connecting it to a co-axle point in my home; I lost the original
antenna.
I'm reasonably sure that point should work fine.

> > Hey, one other thing, and sorry I know it's really OT, but you said you
> > were a console guy. Have you found a command line web browser with
> > javascript support? Like how do u get around the javascript thing?
> 
> Out of habit, I do all my browsing with `lynx' (my fingers

I do the same, I love lynx. It is a fantastic browser with a braille
terminal, and recently when I have been using speech on my laptop, so I
don't have to carry the display around (speech is terrible by itself),
lynx works very nice as well.

> My attitude to sites with javascript is that I don't bother
> with them, as I'm searching for info in text format (ASCII
> PR0N FOR THE MASSES!  mplayer supports aalib!  no need for

Ah, ok. I kinda do the same :-)

> Unfortunately, that's not a real solution, and I did have
> to install Iceape to access the configuration of my router,
> as I'm too cheap to buy one with a ssh interface that
> allows access to the nvram settings.  And that doesn't

I ended up doing that since those interfaces aren't nice with lynx or
braille (i can use firefox, but they aren't great when it comes to
accessibility), so I really like my ssh router.

The voip ata doesn't have ssh and it's just lucky that the interface is
managable with a braille display.

> Sorry I can't help much there...

No worries, it's just good to know how others handle specific problems.

Thanks very much for all your help with everything.

Cheers,
Daniel.

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Re: [linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card

[Daniel Dalton]

> > plugging my usb receiver into a tv connection in my home which a
> > standard tv would plug into.
> > 
> > Any ideas?
> 
> I think the problem is poor QT1010 tuning performance. You cannot do 
> much for that now. I recommended to get other stick.

What model/brand tv card would you recommend me to buy?
(that is reasonably cheap, doesn't have to do anything fancy). An fm
radio tuner would also be nice...

Have a good one,

Daniel

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Re: [linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card

[BOUWSMA Barry]

Hi Daniel, I'm combining the replies to several messages
into one response.  This includes private mail for which
there is no on-list content, but I hope that for the sake
of other list-victims, I have included sufficient context...


On Thu, 22 Jan 2009, Daniel Dalton wrote:

> >>> tune to: 226500000:INVERSION_AUTO:BANDWIDTH_7_MHZ:FEC_3_4:FEC_AUTO:QAM_64:TRANSMISSION_MODE_8K:GUARD_INTERVAL_1_16:HIERARCHY_NONE
> >>> tuning status == 0x04
> >>> tuning status == 0x06
> >>> tuning status == 0x06
> >>> tuning status == 0x06
> >>> tuning status == 0x00
> >>> tuning status == 0x06
> >>> tuning status == 0x06
> >>> tuning status == 0x06
> >>> tuning status == 0x00
> >>> tuning status == 0x06
> WARNING: >>> tuning failed!!!

As I noted earlier (privately), the `tuning status' value gives an 
indication of what sort of signal your USB stick is seeing.

I've cut most of the following frequencies, because they
mirror the above values -- you either see 0x0, 0x4, or 0x6.

Except...

> >>> tuning status == 0x1e
> WARNING: filter timeout pid 0x0011
> WARNING: filter timeout pid 0x0000
> WARNING: filter timeout pid 0x0010

On this particular (UHF) frequency, you actually were able
to lock onto a signal.  Sadly, this was not enough to get
any information from it...


> So I assume there is no signal? I'm plugging into a co-axle plug in my
> house, which we plug our tv into.
> So do you think my problem is with the card?

A status value of 0x0 means no signal whatsoever.  The
values, if you are interested, can be seen in the source
file /usr/local/src/linux-2.6.27-rc4/include/linux/dvb/frontend.h
(adjust to match your path to the source -- if you are
interested, and it is fine if you are not...)

typedef enum fe_status {
        FE_HAS_SIGNAL   = 0x01,   /*  found something above the noise level */
        FE_HAS_CARRIER  = 0x02,   /*  found a DVB signal  */
        FE_HAS_VITERBI  = 0x04,   /*  FEC is stable  */
        FE_HAS_SYNC     = 0x08,   /*  found sync bytes  */
        FE_HAS_LOCK     = 0x10,   /*  everything's working... */


The value 0x6 is obtained by ORing the above CARRIER and
VITERBI values.  Normally one first gets signal, from which
carrier, viterbi, sync, and finally lock follow in quick
succession.

Basically, this all means that your tuner sees something,
but it can't quite lock onto it.


> Am I better getting a new card? I got this a couple of years ago when I
> was on windows, and never used it, so yeh I don't have the original
> aerial that came with it or the original disks...

As Antti has suggested, you may have better luck with a
new different card.

As an offside, supposedly the linux-dvb mailing list has
been abandoned by every developer, and only a few DVB-freak
luddites remain, and in theory, by posting this to the
linux-media list I should magically reach thousands of
developers who can fix the support for your card.  Riiiight.

For these developers, seeing this for the first time, the
history behind this thread, including details about the
card being discussed, are safely archived on the linux-dvb
mailing list over the past three-or-so days.


Personally, I don't expect support for your card to
magically materialise, though I'd love to be proved
wrong.  Generally it's due to lack of adequate documentation
provided by the device or chipset manufacturers.  I am far
removed from this, sad to say.


> I'm chopping out the script, just to cut the size of this reply
> down. But, thanks very much for sending the script, it looks good, and
> yep, I think I'll find that very useful once I get tv going on my box.

As I always say, my script itself is probably useless,
while the ideas which went into it have value.  The
general idea is that you use the Unix-type way of thinking
of using basic building-block tools stacked together to
come up with the desired result.

This requires one to think at the building-block level,
which may not yet be at your level -- but once you reach
it, if you do, then you have an understanding which almost
brings you to the level of `master of the known universe'.

I'll go over this quickly...

First of all, from the transmitter to your tuner is
something which I will just say is a black box for now,
and you don't need to know more about it, because that
won't help you under Linux -- though it would if you
were to be an engineer or hardware developer, and you
need to know details of modulation and the like.

Where Linux comes into play is the payload carried by
the broadcast.  This is in the form of a (partial)
Transport Stream, which you will be able to obtain from
your device.

There are many different ways to get at this stream,
for example, `tzap' and `cat' from the DVB device, or
using `dvbstream' in my example.  Generally, they are
all similar, in that the end result is the Partial
Transport Stream.

Which leads me to mention that the particular script
I provided has the custom flag `-T' not present in
normal `dvbstream' which simply causes it to Terminate
if it can't tune or open the output file or whatever.
But that's trivial.


The next thing to note, is that I then convert the
Partial Transport Stream into an Elementary Stream,
or more simply, just the audio payload, which corresponds
to an mp2 file.  That's essentially an mp3 file.

Again, there are more-than-one ways to do this.  The
example I gave is my own hack, as you won't find
`ts_audio_es_demux' anywhere, save maybe Google in
reference to this and similar threads.  This is based
on the `ts_es_demux', part of a family of DVB/MPEG
utilities, which I've hacked to do no more than search
for the audio stream.

And naturally, you can use any audio player, be it
mpg123, mpg321, madplay, or probably dozens of others.

The idea is that at each step, you know what you have,
and you know how to handle it.  That's the alternative
to the all-inclusive media player, that could be
overkill, or probably uses an interface that is not
compatible with your vision-impaired userland.


Ahhh.  Sorry, I just needed to say all that...


> I'm connecting it to a co-axle point in my home; I lost the original
> antenna.
> I'm reasonably sure that point should work fine.

I will take your word for it; you are welcome to still
have doubts.  However, if others in your home are able
to tune digital TV signals, then that pretty much
points to your device as having problems.

Particularly if, as Antti has said, your device works
poorly with strong signals.

In the mail you sent off-list, all the VHF channels had
problems (status 0x0,4,or 6) while the UHF channel did
once briefly get a lock -- still not enough to actually
tune anything.

In place of the original antenna, you can try a short
length of wire, say, 5cm long for the UHF frequency, to
about half a metre for the other frequencies.  This will,
depending on your distance from the transmitter, give a
weaker signal that may tune.  Or maybe not.

Also noteworthy is whether the signal is horizontally or
vertically polarised; I personally don't know this, as
I'm halfway around the world from you...


> terminal, and recently when I have been using speech on my laptop, so I
> don't have to carry the display around (speech is terrible by itself),
> lynx works very nice as well.

I have worried that what I write might not work when
converted to speech.  Probably I should not worry, but
be certain that I do not attempt any ASCII graphics that
depend on sight, and of a whole screen.  If, by mistake,
I have done this, please give me the slap I deserve...


> > My attitude to sites with javascript is that I don't bother
> > with them, as I'm searching for info in text format (ASCII

> Ah, ok. I kinda do the same :-)

Of course, minutes after I wrote that, I came across a
brewery whose two pages of links were entirely javascript.
Sadly it's a small, non-local brewery that out of principle
I prefer to support, and I don't need javascript to travel
to the somewhat-distant shop where I'd get that beer, but
that was the reminder I needed that the world is not as
friendly as Slashdot, The Register, and Wikipedia for
useful^[citation needed] text-only info...


> > I think the problem is poor QT1010 tuning performance. You cannot do 
> > much for that now. I recommended to get other stick.
> 
> What model/brand tv card would you recommend me to buy?
> (that is reasonably cheap, doesn't have to do anything fancy). An fm
> radio tuner would also be nice...

This will need input from others with experience...

If you want FM radio, you'll be looking at a hybrid
device, which combines DVB-T ability with analogue
tuning.

Availability seems to depend a lot on geographic
region, so you are going to want to hear from someone
also in Australia who can offer suggestions.

Sadly, I bet I've scared off anyone who could help,
as I've written so much...


Anyway, for the one or two readers who have made it
this far, GET A LIFE!!1!  I mean, sorry, here is some
more info that may be useful, based on my experience
in europe with broadcasters that provide additional
services for audience members with aural or visual
difficulties -- or which I take advantage of as a
non-native where dialects cause problems, or simply
if I want to listen at a low volume to not disturb
the neighbours or sleeping girlfriend...


You have asked about options to `scan'.  I've said
that they don't matter for tuning, as first of all
you need to receive a signal you can work with, and
this has so far been a problem.

Eventually you will be able to tune the different
stations available to you.  Then, the default `scan'
output will be lacking -- it only shows the primary
video and audio information, and gives no details
about additional services such as teletext, or a
second audio-commentary channel.  Of course, I don't
know if the broadcasters available to you offer the
latter service, but I'll assume they are as enlightened
as the public service british or german broadcasters
and that generally a second audio track is available.

If it isn't, stop reading now...

Anyway, `scan' offers a few different output formats,
with the non-defaults offering details about any
additional audio streams.  If you are going to write
your own scripts to tune the audio, and the alternative
audio services are available around the clock as they
are in the above-mentioned german/british broadcasts
via satellite, then you will likely want to use the
second audio channel with audiodescription.  So...

Here is the `vdr' output from the BBC as an example:

BSkyB - BBC 1 London:10773:h:S28.2E:22000:5000:5001,5002:5003:0:6301:32:2045:0

The difference for you is that in the audio PID field,
you no longer see the single PID of 5001, but instead,
you see both 5001 and 5002, with the latter being used
for narrative/audiodescription, which presumably will
be of more interest to you.

The other output format is `pids', and here's that from
back in 2006, before the use of the second audio channel
on the german broadcasters became widespread (last year):

ZDF                      (0x6d66) 01: PCR == V   V 0x006e A 0x0078  \
(deu) 0x0079 (2ch) TT 0x0082 AC3 0x007d

Here PID 0x79 is tagged as `2ch' (it's NAR for the Beeb),
and covers both audiodescription and occasional original-
language (mostly english language) broadcasts without
overdubbing.  This was before DVB subtitles were introduced.

Oh, here's an old BBC `pids' output, also including subtitles:

BBC 1 London             (0x189d) 01: PCR == V   V 0x1388 A 0x1389  \
(eng) 0x138a (NAR) TT 0x138b SUB 0x138c


So, when you do get a useful signal, then you can use the
additional options to `scan' to see what PIDs may be
present for additional dedicated audio channels used for
audio commentary.  I suspect these would be your preferred
audio channels.


Hope this is useful,
barry bouwsma

Re: [linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card

[BOUWSMA Barry]

G'day Daniel, I just came up with a couple more ideas that
could be worth mentioning, that you can keep in mind for the
future...

On Fri, 23 Jan 2009, BOUWSMA Barry wrote:

> The other output format is `pids', and here's that from
> back in 2006, before the use of the second audio channel
> on the german broadcasters became widespread (last year):
> 
> ZDF                      (0x6d66) 01: PCR == V   V 0x006e A 0x0078  \
> (deu) 0x0079 (2ch) TT 0x0082 AC3 0x007d
> 
> Here PID 0x79 is tagged as `2ch' (it's NAR for the Beeb),
> and covers both audiodescription and occasional original-
> language (mostly english language) broadcasts without
> overdubbing.  This was before DVB subtitles were introduced.
> 
> Oh, here's an old BBC `pids' output, also including subtitles:
> 
> BBC 1 London             (0x189d) 01: PCR == V   V 0x1388 A 0x1389  \
> (eng) 0x138a (NAR) TT 0x138b SUB 0x138c

Now, I want to mention in detail the TT (teletext) and SUB
(subtitle) services, at least, how they are implemented in
this part of europe -- other parts of the world will likely
be different, but my purpose is to throw around ideas in the
hope that something will stick to the ceiling and be interesting
and possibly useful.

I mentioned that I find the nearly 100% penetration of subtitles
to be quite useful to me personally, although it and in-field
signing are intended for people whose hearing is not so good
as mine, but whose vision is intact.

The subtitles are sent in both a selected teletext page, as
well as a separate DVB-subtitle stream.  Unfortunately, the
support that `mplayer' has for DVB subtitles last I knew, is,
well, bad to none, and basically requires completely rewriting
that bit.  `xine' worked better some months ago, but at that
time had some timing problems.

Anyway, as I understand it, DVB subtitles are sent as bitmaps,
which unfortunately makes it difficult for you to use them.
This also explains the difference in appearance between the
BBC subtitles and those of ITV.  However, I haven't seen
mangled fonts due to transmission errors, while I have seen
incorrect yet properly-formed characters at times.  So my
understanding of DVB subtitles is far from complete or correct.


Standard teletext, as was introduced with analogue transmissions
as part of the vertical blanking interval, has been carried
over to DVB broadcasts.  In the case of the BBC, this is mostly
limited to subtitles on page 888, while the german services I've
mentioned offer full text services, occasionally including
subtitles, but on a limited set of programmes.  Only the ZDF
has both teletext and DVB subtitles at present, of the german
public broadcasters.  These DVB subtitle fonts again differ in
appearance from any of the british public broadcasters.

In the UK, the move has been away from conventional teletext
with the introduction of digital services, replacing it with
an MHEG-based service.  In germany, there has been a push to
supplement regular teletext with an MHP-based service, but for
lack of interest and readily-available hardware, this has
pretty much died out or stagnated.

I seem to recall that in Australia, use is made of an MHEG
service.  I don't know if a regular teletext service is
available -- you will see this in the results, when you have
a tuner capable of scanning.


Now, ideally, a teletext service, being text-based, can be
trivially converted to braille or spoken.  I'm not sure about
the MHEG services, as they seem to place more importance on
the on-screen appearance, yet they do use a TrueType font.

Anyway, while conventional teletext is not simple ASCII-like,
it is based on a hamming of a limited character set which can
be converted back to a standard 128- or 256-character set
font, and of course the normal characters can be displayed as
braille.

Now, here is an example of some of the useful information
to be found on a full teletext service, to show that, if it
were available to you, you might find it interesting.  This
is a page giving inter-bank exchange rates from the Euro to
your own currency, and is meant as an example (it's in german,
but should be trivial to understand)

                    /GIP  IG*** PHOENIX Mi 21.01.09 18:01:45
                         PHOENIX.text                   2/2
                         Devisenkurse
                     Letzte Datenabfrage        Diff.  Kurs-
                     21.01.09, 18:00 Uhr        Vortag zeit

                     USA....... (USD)   1,2857  -0,20% 17:59
                     GB........ (GBP)   0,9369  +0,94% 17:59
                     Schweiz... (CHF)   1,4767  -0,13% 17:59
                     Japan..... (JPY) 112,9800  -2,35% 17:59

                     Kanada.... (CAD)   1,6365  +0,37% 17:59
                     Südafrika. (ZAR)  13,0970  -1,05% 17:50
                     Hongkong.. (HKD)   9,9990  +0,07% 17:49
                     Singapur.. (SGD)   1,9401  -0,13% 17:50
                     Australien (AUD)   1,9804  -0,23% 17:59
                     Neuseeland (NZD)   2,4637  -0,78% 17:49
                     Indien.... (INR)  63,3633  +0,36% 17:49
                     China..... (CNY)   8,8013  +0,03% 17:15
                     Mexiko.... (MXN)  17,9189  -0,85% 17:49
                     Argentin.. (ARS)   4,4618  +0,33% 17:16
                     Brasilien. (BRL)   3,0380  -0,73% 17:54

                                             Sortenkurse ->

(reproduced without permission, sorry)

Unfortunately, relatively few programmes are sent with any
subtitles, and I'm having to dig deeply in my snapshots of
teletext pages to find an example I can show, instead of
                    //   X G*** PHOENIX Mi 21.01.09 18:01:38
                                        KEINE UNTERTITEL
(no subtitles)


More unfortunately, I've just verified that my utility is not
recognizing and writing to disk the subtitles that are currently
being broadcast on page 150 by one particular broadcaster, so it's 
back to the coding for me...  Meaning, I can't paste an example here.

However, my point is that if this type of service is broadcast
in your area, you may find it interesting and useful, as you
would be able to make use of the text content within.


Just an idea which I had...



By the way, I don't know how foreign non-english-language films
would be handled by your broadcasters.  In general, the text-
based subtitles are not sent when there are on-screen subtitles,
for example, when the BBC screens a film in its native language
and subtitles.  That means that, for example, the film ``Lola
Rennt'' was sent out with the primary audio channel containing
the original german, and no teletext subtitles, with the
translation into english appearing as part of the video
signal, meaning that you can't make use of it, nor could you
make use of the audio (if you understand german, then substitute
french, portuguese, japanese, or some other language which has
been broadcast as original-with-subtitles).  Other broadcasters
tend to dub everything of serious commercial value into the
native language with the same limited number of voice talent,
so the issue of original audio versus subtitles doesn't come up.
The cultural channel `arte' is somewhat an exception, where via
the different satellite positions you might find dubbed german,
dubbed french, and original english, subtitles in french or
german, or original language broadcasts in the `trash' series
of cinematic gems with on-screen subtitles in either french or
german, keeping out those audience members unable to understand
the original and unable to see the on-screen subtitles...


barry bouwsma

Re: [linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card

[Daniel Dalton]

Hi Barry,

Sorry about the delay, I was out of town for a few days.

> I seem to recall that in Australia, use is made of an MHEG
> service.  I don't know if a regular teletext service is
> available -- you will see this in the results, when you have
> a tuner capable of scanning.

I look forward to finding out... :-)

> trivially converted to braille or spoken.  I'm not sure about

Braille..., what format do they originate in? Is it tv signal, or some
kind of text guide or something?

> the MHEG services, as they seem to place more importance on
> the on-screen appearance, yet they do use a TrueType font.
> 
> Anyway, while conventional teletext is not simple ASCII-like,
> it is based on a hamming of a limited character set which can
> be converted back to a standard 128- or 256-character set
> font, and of course the normal characters can be displayed as
> braille.

oh... ok

> 
> Now, here is an example of some of the useful information
> to be found on a full teletext service, to show that, if it
> were available to you, you might find it interesting.  This
> is a page giving inter-bank exchange rates from the Euro to
> your own currency, and is meant as an example (it's in german,
> but should be trivial to understand)
> 
>                     /GIP  IG*** PHOENIX Mi 21.01.09 18:01:45
>                          PHOENIX.text                   2/2
>                          Devisenkurse
>                      Letzte Datenabfrage        Diff.  Kurs-
>                      21.01.09, 18:00 Uhr        Vortag zeit
> 
>                      USA....... (USD)   1,2857  -0,20% 17:59
>                      GB........ (GBP)   0,9369  +0,94% 17:59
>                      Schweiz... (CHF)   1,4767  -0,13% 17:59
>                      Japan..... (JPY) 112,9800  -2,35% 17:59
> 
>                      Kanada.... (CAD)   1,6365  +0,37% 17:59
>                      Südafrika. (ZAR)  13,0970  -1,05% 17:50
>                      Hongkong.. (HKD)   9,9990  +0,07% 17:49
<snip>

Thanks, that looks interesting, so does it all depend on what service is
available here in Australia?
> However, my point is that if this type of service is broadcast
> in your area, you may find it interesting and useful, as you
> would be able to make use of the text content within.
> 

Indeed, thanks very much.

Cheers,

Daniel.

Re: [linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card

[Daniel Dalton]

Hi Barry,

On Fri, Jan 23, 2009 at 01:41:41AM +0100, BOUWSMA Barry wrote:

> Basically, this all means that your tuner sees something,
> but it can't quite lock onto it.
> 
> 

Right.

> > Am I better getting a new card? I got this a couple of years ago when I
> > was on windows, and never used it, so yeh I don't have the original
> > aerial that came with it or the original disks...
> 
> As Antti has suggested, you may have better luck with a
> new different card.
> 

Alright then.

> As an offside, supposedly the linux-dvb mailing list has
> been abandoned by every developer, and only a few DVB-freak
> luddites remain, and in theory, by posting this to the
> linux-media list I should magically reach thousands of
> developers who can fix the support for your card.  Riiiight.
> 
> For these developers, seeing this for the first time, the
> history behind this thread, including details about the
> card being discussed, are safely archived on the linux-dvb
> mailing list over the past three-or-so days.
> 

ok

> > I'm connecting it to a co-axle point in my home; I lost the original
> > antenna.
> > I'm reasonably sure that point should work fine.
> 
> I will take your word for it; you are welcome to still
> have doubts.  However, if others in your home are able
> to tune digital TV signals, then that pretty much
> points to your device as having problems.
> 

ok

> In place of the original antenna, you can try a short
> length of wire, say, 5cm long for the UHF frequency, to
> about half a metre for the other frequencies.  This will,

What kind of wire? Ear phone? and how do I hook this up to the receiver
since it has a co-axle input plug on it.

> I have worried that what I write might not work when
> converted to speech.  Probably I should not worry, but
> be certain that I do not attempt any ASCII graphics that
> depend on sight, and of a whole screen.  If, by mistake,
> I have done this, please give me the slap I deserve...

Nup, you've done a great job. When using mutt and brltty with my braille
terminal, I've never come across anything I couldn't read (yet:-)) And
that's been over a year.

> Availability seems to depend a lot on geographic
> region, so you are going to want to hear from someone
> also in Australia who can offer suggestions.

I'm probably going to buy off ebay.

> this far, GET A LIFE!!1!  I mean, sorry, here is some

lol :-)



thanks very much Barry, that information is very useful indeed.

Have a good one

Daniel.

Re: [linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card

[BOUWSMA Barry]

On Tue, 27 Jan 2009, Daniel Dalton wrote:

    [Now, ideally, a teletext service, being text-based, can be]
> > trivially converted to braille or spoken.  I'm not sure about
> 
> Braille..., what format do they originate in? Is it tv signal, or some
> kind of text guide or something?

The teletext service I hope you would be able to get, is sent
as part of the digital service.  Here I will quickly explain
that a Transport Stream, which is used by DVB-T, mixes together
digital versions of several services, including audio soundtrack,
or radio, as well as video signals, and additional data services,
with each component being able to be identified by its own ID.

A conventional set-top-box will convert the video from its
digital form to an analogue equivalent, then convert the audio
soundtrack into its analogue form, and decode and add the
teletext to the video signal, perhaps also including its own
internal teletext decoder for user convenience.

Then these analogue signals are delivered to your tv by one of
many means, be it as an RGB signal through a SCART connector,
or in the worst case, by modulating an RF carrier.

But your Linux machine will be working with the Transport
Stream directly, selecting the particular IDs of interest.
When you look at that particular ID, you see merely a
datastream including the payload.

So, just as your TV audio will be carried in a form which
will be similar to the mp3 files you've certainly used, or
whatever format, you can also write the teletext data to
a file and work with that.

When you get your tuner working, or one that does, if you
do receive a teletext service, I'll guide you through the
steps needed to actually see the content being broadcast.

As a little teaser, I will paste part of a hexdump of an
update to today's rates of the example I posted earlier.

000001c0  20 20 20 20 20 cb 61 6e  61 64 61 ae ae ae ae 20  |     .anada.... |
000001d0  a8 43 c1 c4 29 83 20 20  31 2c b6 31 38 37 02 20  |.C..).  1,.187. |
000001e0  ab b0 2c b3 37 25 07 31  32 ba b0 37 20 d3 fd 64  |..,.7%.12..7 ..d|
000001f0  61 e6 f2 e9 6b 61 ae 20  a8 da c1 52 29 83 20 31  |a...ka. ...R). 1|
00000200  b3 2c b3 37 b6 31 02 20  ab b0 2c b5 b6 25 07 31  |.,.7.1. ..,..%.1|
00000210  31 ba b5 b0 20 c8 ef 6e  67 6b ef 6e 67 ae ae 20  |1... ..ngk.ng.. |
00000220  a8 c8 cb c4 29 83 20 31  b0 2c 32 b5 b6 37 02 20  |....). 1.,2..7. |
00000230  ab b0 2c 31 b6 25 07 31  31 ba 34 b9 20 d3 e9 6e  |..,1.%.11.4. ..n|

There are some readable parts of words (Canada, Hongkong)
to be seen in the ASCII dump at the right, but it is not
quite a simple text dump.

The program I hacked to display this in text form does
the conversion into ASCII with the added characters for
the particular language in use.

So, to answer your question, essentially it is a text
guide.


Now, the MHEG service, in contrast, is Java based, and I
have downloaded a good number of files, both text and
binary, that would be used to display a particular page.
However, I can't see a simple way to get at the text
info within and display it.  That would be for someone
who has studied and understands this service.


> Thanks, that looks interesting, so does it all depend on what service is
> available here in Australia?

That is correct.  One more thing I should note, is that
this text type of teletext supports, and broadcasters
generally make heavy use of, features such as colours,
double-height and blinking characters, and in particular,
parts of character blocks that can be used to create
simple graphics.  Think of some sort of ASCII art, or,
with the most common use made of these graphics by
commercial broadcasters, ASCII pr0n.

DANGER!  ASCII PR0N PASTED BELOW!  SENSITIVE READERS
SHOULD AVERT THEIR GAZE OR SKIP TO THE NEXT MESSAGE!
^L
I MEAN IT!  IT COULD QUALIFY AS EXTREME PORN!
^L
THAT'S IT, I TAKE NO RESPONSIBILITY FOR YOUR ACTIONS!

This pr0n is made worse by the fact that my console font
does not include the full range of teletext partial blocks,
so I've substituted characters such as `*' and `X' to try
and give a feel for how the graphics should appear.
Maybe a full Unicode X font will include such characters
and I can simply map them to UTF8, but I'm primarily
interested in the text content information on my text console.

Here's the pr0n...

                      █X█X*XX*???*?██           XXX*    AMI
                      █X?█??*█ █X?* █          **XXXX

No, this is not going to work.  There are too many characters
which are not yet converted to something and I'm having to add
as `?' by hand.  Anyway, the blocks on the left are used to
form words; to the right the blocks would be forming the top
of a female head.

                     auszuziehen.Magst     *X*███XX*██
                     Du mir die Kleider     *XX████X* ██
                     vom Leib reissen?     XX██████* X█*

At the right, part of a stomach and arm

Well, anyway, if these non-ASCII full blocks have made it
through intact and are diplaying correctly anywhere, that
is an example of the crude (in more than one sense of the
word) images one can make from the text medium of teletext.

And as far as colour -- the background would be black,
with the blocks-forming-letters as well as the text yellow,
and the female image formed from red partial blocks.


Ah, another UTF8 project for me to add to my list...

barry bouwsma

Re: [linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card

[BOUWSMA Barry]

On Tue, 27 Jan 2009, Daniel Dalton wrote:

> > > I'm connecting it to a co-axle point in my home; I lost the original
> > > antenna.
> > > I'm reasonably sure that point should work fine.

> > In place of the original antenna, you can try a short
> > length of wire, say, 5cm long for the UHF frequency, to
> > about half a metre for the other frequencies.  This will,
> 
> What kind of wire? Ear phone? and how do I hook this up to the receiver
> since it has a co-axle input plug on it.

The type of wire should not matter.  In fact, you may not
even need to make contact between the metal of the coaxial
connector and the wire conductor for a very strong signal --
although ideally you would make this contact.

The idea behind this is that Antti has suggested that your
tuner may not work well with strong signals, so we are
wanting to get a somewhat weaker signal.  It could be,
though, that you will not get enough of a signal.  This
all will depend on the distance you are from the transmitter
site, the power it sends, and what sort of terrain exists
between you and the sender.

One thing has popped into my mind -- there are different
standards for coaxial connectors used in different parts
of the world for the same function, so I may have a totally
different idea of what you have...

Anyway, you are connected to your wall by a cable that
connects to your device.  Perhaps that cable is connected
to some sort of push-on or screw-on connector, or maybe
it is firmly attached to the wall without a connector.

The part of the connector of interest will be the centre
conductor.  Through europe, this exists on TV-type tuners
as an outer ring, somewhat over 1cm diametre, and a smaller
ring inside with a couple millimetre diametre.  I can actually
take a length of bell wire or thin electrical wire, fold about
1cm of it over on itself, and stick this into that centre
conductor to make a simple antenna that receives strong
signals.

If you have a screw-on type of F connector, that was common
for cable TV in america when I was there, but in europe is
found primarily on satellite equipment, then the part that
connects to the wall will have a centre conductor which
extends somewhat, if you are lucky.  This can be a bit
tricky, but a clip lead, with small alligator clip can be
of help, particularly if the F connector cannot be readily
screwed off.

Now, for the other type of F connector -- the female type,
one can simply stick in the end of some bell wire, after
removing a cm of insulation.

The problem is that I personally can't imagine myself
doing this without sight, because it's too easy to cause
a short-circuit between the outer and inner conductors,
which means your reception will drop to zero, and I rely
on visual feedback to see this.  So if you have some
technically-minded friend who can help you with this, it
may be easiest.

(There are no dangerous voltages to be found on these sort
of antenna connectors.  In strong signal areas, I can get
a good signal simply with my finger on the inner conductor,
possibly moistened for better conductivity.  This is not to
say that your equipment will be at earth potential, as all
this depends on the presence of and quality of your earth
ground, and in fact whether all your devices make use of it,
as I'm often zapped lightly when connecting USB devices to
an earthed computer, due to the lack of earthing on said
devices.  At worst, your tuner may deliver 5v to power an
active antenna, but nothing to throw you across the room.)

Actually, 5cm wire for the UHF frequency in use might be a bit
short, so you may be better with 20 to 100cm overall.


Another thing to keep in mind, though it won't be as important
as it is with a rooftop-mounted antenna, is the polarisation
of the radio signals from the transmitter; the scanfiles I
see here don't give any hints to that for your area, and my
internet connection presently is too poor for me to look
online.


Anyway, good luck; it could be that with this you are
unable to receive any signal whatsoever, in which case all
the time I spent writing this will have been for nought,
and, unless some other brilliant idea reveals itself, you
will be forced to go the path of obtaining a different
tuner and hoping that one works out-of-the-box...

barry bouwsma

Re: [linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card

[Daniel Dalton]

> The idea behind this is that Antti has suggested that your
> tuner may not work well with strong signals, so we are
> wanting to get a somewhat weaker signal.  It could be,

Ah, right, I'll give that ago, thanks.

> though, that you will not get enough of a signal.  This
> all will depend on the distance you are from the transmitter
> site, the power it sends, and what sort of terrain exists
> between you and the sender.
> 
> One thing has popped into my mind -- there are different
> standards for coaxial connectors used in different parts
> of the world for the same function, so I may have a totally
> different idea of what you have...
> 
> Anyway, you are connected to your wall by a cable that
> connects to your device.  Perhaps that cable is connected
> to some sort of push-on or screw-on connector, or maybe
> it is firmly attached to the wall without a connector.
> 

There is a connector on the wall, and I guess an aerial on the roof.

> The part of the connector of interest will be the centre
> conductor.  Through europe, this exists on TV-type tuners
> as an outer ring, somewhat over 1cm diametre, and a smaller
> ring inside with a couple millimetre diametre.  I can actually
> take a length of bell wire or thin electrical wire, fold about
> 1cm of it over on itself, and stick this into that centre
> conductor to make a simple antenna that receives strong
> signals.

Ah, ok. I think I get it now... Makes sense.
> technically-minded friend who can help you with this, it
> may be easiest.

Yep, I'll see if I can get some help.
> Anyway, good luck; it could be that with this you are

Thanks.

> unable to receive any signal whatsoever, in which case all
> the time I spent writing this will have been for nought,

Oh... I'm sorry... I'll give it ago anyway and see what happens, and if
it doesn't work, I'll look online for alternative tuners.

Thanks very much,

Daniel.

Re: [linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card

[Daniel Dalton]

> But your Linux machine will be working with the Transport
> Stream directly, selecting the particular IDs of interest.
> When you look at that particular ID, you see merely a
> datastream including the payload.
> 
> So, just as your TV audio will be carried in a form which
> will be similar to the mp3 files you've certainly used, or
> whatever format, you can also write the teletext data to
> a file and work with that.
> 

Ah, right.


> When you get your tuner working, or one that does, if you
> do receive a teletext service, I'll guide you through the
> steps needed to actually see the content being broadcast.

Alright then, thanks very much.

> and give a feel for how the graphics should appear.
> Maybe a full Unicode X font will include such characters
> and I can simply map them to UTF8, but I'm primarily
> interested in the text content information on my text console.
> 
> Here's the pr0n...
> 
>                       ???X???X*XX*???*???????           XXX*    AMI
>                       ???X??????*??? ???X?* ???          **XXXX
> 
> No, this is not going to work.  There are too many characters
> which are not yet converted to something and I'm having to add
> as `?' by hand.  Anyway, the blocks on the left are used to
> form words; to the right the blocks would be forming the top
> of a female head.
> 

ah, ok... I kinda get it... :-)

Thanks very much Barry for all your help with everything, I greatly
appreciate it.

Cheers,

Daniel.

Unicode Teletext (was: Re: [linux-dvb] getting started with msi tv card)

[BOUWSMA Barry]

On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Daniel Dalton wrote:

> > Maybe a full Unicode X font will include such characters
> > and I can simply map them to UTF8, but I'm primarily
> > interested in the text content information on my text console.
> > 
> > Here's the pr0n...
> > 
> >                       ???X???X*XX*???*???????           XXX*    AMI
> >                       ???X??????*??? ???X?* ???          **XXXX
> > 
> > No, this is not going to work.  There are too many characters
> > which are not yet converted to something and I'm having to add

> ah, ok... I kinda get it... :-)

Actually, your `mutt' mailer has managed to convert the
UTF-8 encoding which I hope you received into ASCII and
substituted its own `?' for those block characters which
should have appeared as correct UTF-8, though I'll need to
check an archive.

And after quite a few too many hours, I still don't get it,
and I'm going to have to ask help from the collective
knowledge pooled here.

I've seen that the 10646 encoded fonts available usually
have the familiar box-drawing and related characters I've
partly been able to use for a few of the graphics.

Unfortunately, these seem to be either based on a 2x2 set
of quads, or a 3x4 array.  While the teletext graphics in
use uses a 2x3 array.

I've come upon two sets of fonts which supposedly cover
the teletext character set with a 10646 encoding.  But
the first one, which does include the 2x3 graphics chars
that otherwise need a `fontspecific' encoding, seems to
have hijacked existing assigned unicode characters in
order to display the graphics.

That is, with this font, these characters no longer display
properly (selection limited due to pasting from a 512-char
console font)
[◆]  U+25C6   ◆  BLACK DIAMOND
[◊]  U+25CA   ◊  LOZENGE
This is matched by reading the code:
const wchar_t graphutf8[128] = { // Graphic characters on an unicode terminal ISO-10646
[...]
        0x25A0,0x25A1,0x25A2,0x25A3,0x25A4,0x25A5,0x25A6,0x25A7, 
[...]
        0x25B0,0x25B1,0x25B2,0x25B3,0x25B4,0x25B5,0x25B6,0x25B7, 
[...]
        0x25C0,0x25C1,0x25C2,0x25c3,0x25C4,0x25C5,0x25C6,0x25C7, 
[...]
0x25D8,0x25D9,0x25DA,0x25DB,0x25DC,0x25DD,0x25DE,0x25DF,
};

I'm still trying to determine whether the second font has any
graphics and where they would be hidden -- even the handy
[█]  U+2588   █  FULL BLOCK
character is missing.


Does anyone know whether the various 2x3 graphics used in
teletext fonts are in fact present in Unicode?  I haven't
been able to convince google to give me the answer I want.
I would think that with everything I do see with a unifont
font, that such widely-used characters wouldn't have been
left out...


thanks for any pointers,
barry bouwsma