[linux-dvb] DVB-T USB dib0700 device recomendations?

[linux-dvb] DVB-T USB dib0700 device recomendations?

[H. Langos]

I've been trying to minimize energy consumption and noise on my vdr system.
One of the most important factors apart from a hardware pid filter seems to
be the usb buffer size. I've collected some data about that on my wiki user 
page: http://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/User:Hlangos

Greping through the sources I've seen that the dib0700 driver uses a HUGE
usb buffer of 39480 bytes. This looks very promising. But before running 
out in the street and buying the first dib0700 device I'd like to know if 
there are any devices that are 

- especially good (sensitive reception, fast switch time, sensible tuner 
  data (usable for comparing different antennas) and so on)

or 

- especially bad (invers of the above plus hardware bugs, annoyances and so
  on..)

any feedback is appreciated. 

cheers
-henrik

PS: A "full" remote (not one of those pesky credit card sized things that get 
eaten by the hoover) would be a plus. 


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Re: [linux-dvb] DVB-T USB dib0700 device recomendations?

[H. Langos]

On Sun, Apr 12, 2009 at 12:17:40AM +0200, H. Langos wrote:
> I've been trying to minimize energy consumption and noise on my vdr system.
> One of the most important factors apart from a hardware pid filter seems to
> be the usb buffer size. I've collected some data about that on my wiki user 
> page: http://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/User:Hlangos
> 
> Greping through the sources I've seen that the dib0700 driver uses a HUGE
> usb buffer of 39480 bytes. This looks very promising. But before running 
> out in the street and buying the first dib0700 device I'd like to know if 
> there are any devices that are 
> 
> - especially good (sensitive reception, fast switch time, sensible tuner 
>   data (usable for comparing different antennas) and so on)
> 
> or 
> 
> - especially bad (invers of the above plus hardware bugs, annoyances and so
>   on..)
> 
> any feedback is appreciated. 
> 
> cheers
> -henrik
> 
> PS: A "full" remote (not one of those pesky credit card sized things that get 
> eaten by the hoover) would be a plus. 

Just to remind ppl what the dib0700 driver supports:

# grep "{   \"" dib0700_devices.c | sort
                        {   "Artec T14BR DVB-T",
                        {   "Asus My Cinema-U3000Hybrid",
                        {   "ASUS My Cinema U3000 Mini DVBT Tuner",
                        {   "ASUS My Cinema U3100 Mini DVBT Tuner",
                        {   "AVerMedia AVerTV DVB-T Express",
                        {   "AVerMedia AVerTV DVB-T Volar",
                        {   "Compro Videomate U500",
                        {   "DiBcom STK7070PD reference design",
                        {   "DiBcom STK7070P reference design",
                        {   "DiBcom STK7700D reference design",
                        {   "DiBcom STK7700P reference design",
                        {   "Gigabyte U7000",
                        {   "Gigabyte U8000-RH",
                        {   "Hauppauge Nova-T 500 Dual DVB-T",
                        {   "Hauppauge Nova-TD-500 (84xxx)",
                        {   "Hauppauge Nova-TD Stick (52009)",
                        {   "Hauppauge Nova-TD Stick/Elgato Eye-TV Diversity",
                        {   "Hauppauge Nova-T MyTV.t",
                        {   "Hauppauge Nova-T Stick",
                        {   "Hauppauge Nova-T Stick",
                        {   "Leadtek Winfast DTV Dongle (STK7700P based)",
                        {   "Pinnacle Expresscard 320cx",
                        {   "Pinnacle PCTV 2000e",
                        {   "Pinnacle PCTV 72e",
                        {   "Pinnacle PCTV 73e",
                        {   "Pinnacle PCTV Dual DVB-T Diversity Stick",
                        {   "Pinnacle PCTV DVB-T Flash Stick",
                        {   "Pinnacle PCTV HD Pro USB Stick",
                        {   "Pinnacle PCTV HD USB Stick",
                        {   "Terratec Cinergy DT XS Diversity",
                        {   "Terratec Cinergy HT Express",
                        {   "Terratec Cinergy HT USB XE",
                        {   "Terratec Cinergy T Express",
                        {   "Terratec Cinergy T USB XXS",
                        {   "Uniwill STK7700P based (Hama and others)",
                        {   "Yuan EC372S",
                        {   "YUAN High-Tech STK7700PH",

cheers
-henrik
 

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Re: [linux-dvb] DVB-T USB dib0700 device recomendations?

[Heinrich Langos]

Hi Lars,

On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 05:49:14PM +0200, Lars Buerding wrote:
> Hello Hendrik,
> 
> >> out in the street and buying the first dib0700 device I'd like to know if 
> >> there are any devices that are 
> >>
> >> - especially good (sensitive reception, fast switch time, sensible tuner 
> >>   data (usable for comparing different antennas) and so on)
> >>
> >> or 
> >>
> >> - especially bad (invers of the above plus hardware bugs, annoyances and so
> >>   on..)
> >>     
> 
> I bought this model a while ago:
> { "Hauppauge Nova-TD Stick/Elgato Eye-TV Diversity",
> 
> This is the "Nova-TD" equipped with one standard and one small RF Connector
> (Adapter Small -> Standard is included). There is another model with two
> small RF-Connectors,  I dont know anything about this one.
> 
> 
> positive:
> - standard Hauppauge remote-control (until now, I did not find a better
>   one for my VDR)

Did you take a look at the Terratec remotes? They look quite good to me,too 
with color buttons and so on.. It looks a little cheaper than the
HAuppauge's remote but hopefully that's just due to the choice of colors.. 

Even the XXS seems to come with the full 48 buttons remote.
http://www.terratec.net/en/products/pictures/produkt_bilder_en_9706.html

> - 2 seperate tuners
> 
> 
> negative:
> - I have massive problems receiving weak signals. If you dont live directly
>   beneath the radio tower, just dont buy it. For me, this is the main reason
>   why I just cant use it at home.

I do live close to the radio tower but some receivers have problem with some
channels when using a stick antenna. Thats why I switched to a cheapo do it
yourself double quad. Here's the link to the instructions in German:
http://www.cnet.de/praxis/wochenend/41001557/die+beste+eigenbau_dvb_t_antenne+doppelquad+fuer+5+euro+basteln.htm

And here's the google translation:

http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.cnet.de/praxis/wochenend/41001557/die%2Bbeste%2Beigenbau_dvb_t_antenne%2Bdoppelquad%2Bfuer%2B5%2Beuro%2Bbasteln.htm&ei=mKLlScbqIMGPsAam-KWtCw&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.cnet.de/praxis/wochenend/41001557/die%252Bbeste%252Beigenbau_dvb_t_antenne%252Bdoppelquad%252Bfuer%252B5%252Beuro%252Bbasteln.htm%26hl%3Den%26client%3Diceweasel-a%26rls%3Dorg.debian:en-US:unofficial

> - it does not work with my AMD-Board (SB700-Chipset), I have no problems
>   using it on my Laptop (Intel-Chipset) and another AMD-Desktop
> (Nvidia-Chipset).
>   I have found several reports in Mailinglists mentioning the same problems.

Thats wierd. So the usb controler on the Nova-TD and the host controler on
the SB700 are incompatible? 

> I also have a "Hauppauge Nova-T USB-2" (dib3000, large metal case) and a
> "Hauppauge WinTV Ministick" (Siano sms1xx-Chipset), the RF-Part of both
> devices is a far better one compared to the Nova-TD.

Is there a way to truely compare different receiver's quality? The
information that femon and tzap report (SNR, BER, UNC) are only what the
receiver itself says. 

cheers
-henrik



_______________________________________________
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For V4L/DVB development, please use instead linux-media@vger.kernel.org
linux-dvb@linuxtv.org
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Re: [linux-dvb] DVB-T USB dib0700 device recomendations?

[hermann pitton]

Hi Heinrich,

Am Mittwoch, den 15.04.2009, 12:06 +0200 schrieb Heinrich Langos:
> Hi Lars,
> 
> On Tue, Apr 14, 2009 at 05:49:14PM +0200, Lars Buerding wrote:
> > Hello Hendrik,
> > 
> > >> out in the street and buying the first dib0700 device I'd like to know if 
> > >> there are any devices that are 
> > >>
> > >> - especially good (sensitive reception, fast switch time, sensible tuner 
> > >>   data (usable for comparing different antennas) and so on)
> > >>
> > >> or 
> > >>
> > >> - especially bad (invers of the above plus hardware bugs, annoyances and so
> > >>   on..)
> > >>     
> > 
> > I bought this model a while ago:
> > { "Hauppauge Nova-TD Stick/Elgato Eye-TV Diversity",
> > 
> > This is the "Nova-TD" equipped with one standard and one small RF Connector
> > (Adapter Small -> Standard is included). There is another model with two
> > small RF-Connectors,  I dont know anything about this one.
> > 
> > 
> > positive:
> > - standard Hauppauge remote-control (until now, I did not find a better
> >   one for my VDR)
> 
> Did you take a look at the Terratec remotes? They look quite good to me,too 
> with color buttons and so on.. It looks a little cheaper than the
> HAuppauge's remote but hopefully that's just due to the choice of colors.. 
> 
> Even the XXS seems to come with the full 48 buttons remote.
> http://www.terratec.net/en/products/pictures/produkt_bilder_en_9706.html
> 
> > - 2 seperate tuners
> > 
> > 
> > negative:
> > - I have massive problems receiving weak signals. If you dont live directly
> >   beneath the radio tower, just dont buy it. For me, this is the main reason
> >   why I just cant use it at home.
> 
> I do live close to the radio tower but some receivers have problem with some
> channels when using a stick antenna. Thats why I switched to a cheapo do it
> yourself double quad. Here's the link to the instructions in German:
> http://www.cnet.de/praxis/wochenend/41001557/die+beste+eigenbau_dvb_t_antenne+doppelquad+fuer+5+euro+basteln.htm

I really like that kind of input.

Especially for the follow up version, with dedicated antennas for each
transponder frequency. 

I do confirm, that it has the potential to replace two amplifiers, one
external and one on the card under bad reception conditions, not to talk
about the antenna itself and about what all that might cost else
installed by an expert on light-speed coming into your home ...

> And here's the google translation:
> 
> http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://www.cnet.de/praxis/wochenend/41001557/die%2Bbeste%2Beigenbau_dvb_t_antenne%2Bdoppelquad%2Bfuer%2B5%2Beuro%2Bbasteln.htm&ei=mKLlScbqIMGPsAam-KWtCw&sa=X&oi=translate&resnum=1&ct=result&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://www.cnet.de/praxis/wochenend/41001557/die%252Bbeste%252Beigenbau_dvb_t_antenne%252Bdoppelquad%252Bfuer%252B5%252Beuro%252Bbasteln.htm%26hl%3Den%26client%3Diceweasel-a%26rls%3Dorg.debian:en-US:unofficial
> 
> > - it does not work with my AMD-Board (SB700-Chipset), I have no problems
> >   using it on my Laptop (Intel-Chipset) and another AMD-Desktop
> > (Nvidia-Chipset).
> >   I have found several reports in Mailinglists mentioning the same problems.
> 
> Thats wierd. So the usb controler on the Nova-TD and the host controler on
> the SB700 are incompatible? 
> 
> > I also have a "Hauppauge Nova-T USB-2" (dib3000, large metal case) and a
> > "Hauppauge WinTV Ministick" (Siano sms1xx-Chipset), the RF-Part of both
> > devices is a far better one compared to the Nova-TD.
> 
> Is there a way to truely compare different receiver's quality? The
> information that femon and tzap report (SNR, BER, UNC) are only what the
> receiver itself says. 

Not yet and hard to come by, also lots of different antennas and
amplification. 

Cheers,
Hermann

Re: [linux-dvb] DVB-T USB dib0700 device recomendations?

[covert covert]

>
> Thats wierd. So the usb controler on the Nova-TD and the host controler on
> the SB700 are incompatible?
>

I tried a few different USB tuners with a SB700 based motherboard
until I found out the drivers where not up to scratch for the USB on
the SB700 and caused a lot of "dvb-usb: bulk message failed"

Re: [linux-dvb] DVB-T USB dib0700 device recomendations?

[hermann pitton]

Hi,

Am Donnerstag, den 16.04.2009, 18:14 +1000 schrieb covert covert:
> >
> > Thats wierd. So the usb controler on the Nova-TD and the host controler on
> > the SB700 are incompatible?
> >
> 
> I tried a few different USB tuners with a SB700 based motherboard
> until I found out the drivers where not up to scratch for the USB on
> the SB700 and caused a lot of "dvb-usb: bulk message failed"

does somebody know if the problem is still there even with this print

ehci_hcd 0000:00:12.2: applying AMD SB600/SB700 USB freeze workaround
ehci_hcd 0000:00:13.2: applying AMD SB600/SB700 USB freeze workaround

visible in dmesg caused by this patch?

http://lkml.org/lkml/2008/12/3/287

Thanks,
Hermann

Re: [linux-dvb] DVB-T USB dib0700 device recommendations?

[Marco Borm]

Hi Henrik,

one of the cards in my system is the dib0700 based "'Hauppauge Nova-T 500".
Compared with the "TerraTec Cinergy 1400" I would say that the receiver 
sensitivity is worse but the main problem I have is that the card 
consumes a loot of energy (8-13W), which is much more than the 
Terratec(5-6W).
I calculated this using measure values of the whole system captured with 
a Conrad/Voltcraft Energy Monitor 3000.
Personally I am little bit shocked about that and wondering if this can 
be true because the dib is a USB-device, but the Voltcraft is one of the 
better measurement device.
Maybe the VIA usb-hub controller on the board is the problem?!

Would be interesting of someone has the same or other experiences with 
this card or other PCI based cards. Hauppauge ignores all my questions, 
so I can't recomment products of this manufacturer anyway.


Greetings,
Marco

H. Langos wrote:
> I've been trying to minimize energy consumption [...] But before running 
> out in the street and buying the first dib0700 device I'd like to know if 
> there are any devices that are 
>
> - especially good [...]
>
> or 
>
> - especially bad [...]
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> linux-dvb users mailing list
> For V4L/DVB development, please use instead linux-media@vger.kernel.org
> linux-dvb@linuxtv.org
> http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-dvb
>
>   


_______________________________________________
linux-dvb users mailing list
For V4L/DVB development, please use instead linux-media@vger.kernel.org
linux-dvb@linuxtv.org
http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-dvb

Re: [linux-dvb] DVB-T USB dib0700 device recommendations?

[Markus Rechberger]

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 4:18 AM, Marco Borm <linux-dvb@retrodesignfan.eu> wrote:
> Hi Henrik,
>
> one of the cards in my system is the dib0700 based "'Hauppauge Nova-T 500".
> Compared with the "TerraTec Cinergy 1400" I would say that the receiver
> sensitivity is worse but the main problem I have is that the card
> consumes a loot of energy (8-13W), which is much more than the
> Terratec(5-6W).

That's a little bit weird USB itself should provide max 5V 500mA which would be
2.5 Watt; if it requires more then the device has to be self powered.

Maybe you can try to use a different USB device (eg. storage) just for
testing the
consumption. USB is supposed to require alot power (the controller).
You might try to unload the ehci/ohci driver too.

Markus

> I calculated this using measure values of the whole system captured with
> a Conrad/Voltcraft Energy Monitor 3000.
> Personally I am little bit shocked about that and wondering if this can
> be true because the dib is a USB-device, but the Voltcraft is one of the
> better measurement device.
> Maybe the VIA usb-hub controller on the board is the problem?!
>
> Would be interesting of someone has the same or other experiences with
> this card or other PCI based cards. Hauppauge ignores all my questions,
> so I can't recomment products of this manufacturer anyway.
>
>
> Greetings,
> Marco
>
> H. Langos wrote:
>> I've been trying to minimize energy consumption [...] But before running
>> out in the street and buying the first dib0700 device I'd like to know if
>> there are any devices that are
>>
>> - especially good [...]
>>
>> or
>>
>> - especially bad [...]
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> linux-dvb users mailing list
>> For V4L/DVB development, please use instead linux-media@vger.kernel.org
>> linux-dvb@linuxtv.org
>> http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-dvb
>>
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> linux-dvb users mailing list
> For V4L/DVB development, please use instead linux-media@vger.kernel.org
> linux-dvb@linuxtv.org
> http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-dvb
>

Re: [linux-dvb] DVB-T USB dib0700 device recommendations?

[Marco Borm]

Hi Markus,

it seams that you don't know what the Hauppauge Nova-T 500 is:
Its not a USB device itself, its a PCI card with a VIA PCI/USB-Bridge 
Chip connected to multiple DIBcom USB chips:
http://www.bttv-gallery.de/high/bttv-gallery.html

I bought the card with the idea in mind that it uses low power USB 
technology, but that was a mistake.
Next time I will buy a real usb device and know it isn't allowed to eat 
more than 2.5W.


Greetings,
Marco

Markus Rechberger wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 4:18 AM, Marco Borm <linux-dvb@retrodesignfan.eu> wrote:
>   
>> Hi Henrik,
>>
>> one of the cards in my system is the dib0700 based "'Hauppauge Nova-T 500".
>> Compared with the "TerraTec Cinergy 1400" I would say that the receiver
>> sensitivity is worse but the main problem I have is that the card
>> consumes a loot of energy (8-13W), which is much more than the
>> Terratec(5-6W).
>>     
>
> That's a little bit weird USB itself should provide max 5V 500mA which would be
> 2.5 Watt; if it requires more then the device has to be self powered.
>
> Maybe you can try to use a different USB device (eg. storage) just for
> testing the
> consumption. USB is supposed to require alot power (the controller).
> You might try to unload the ehci/ohci driver too.
>
> Markus
>
>   
>> I calculated this using measure values of the whole system captured with
>> a Conrad/Voltcraft Energy Monitor 3000.
>> Personally I am little bit shocked about that and wondering if this can
>> be true because the dib is a USB-device, but the Voltcraft is one of the
>> better measurement device.
>> Maybe the VIA usb-hub controller on the board is the problem?!
>>
>> Would be interesting of someone has the same or other experiences with
>> this card or other PCI based cards. Hauppauge ignores all my questions,
>> so I can't recomment products of this manufacturer anyway.
>>
>>
>> Greetings,
>> Marco
>>
>> H. Langos wrote:
>>     
>>> I've been trying to minimize energy consumption [...] But before running
>>> out in the street and buying the first dib0700 device I'd like to know if
>>> there are any devices that are
>>>
>>> - especially good [...]
>>>
>>> or
>>>
>>> - especially bad [...]
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> linux-dvb users mailing list
>>> For V4L/DVB development, please use instead linux-media@vger.kernel.org
>>> linux-dvb@linuxtv.org
>>> http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-dvb
>>>
>>>
>>>       
>> _______________________________________________
>> linux-dvb users mailing list
>> For V4L/DVB development, please use instead linux-media@vger.kernel.org
>> linux-dvb@linuxtv.org
>> http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-dvb
>>
>>     
>
> _______________________________________________
> linux-dvb users mailing list
> For V4L/DVB development, please use instead linux-media@vger.kernel.org
> linux-dvb@linuxtv.org
> http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-dvb
>
>   

Re: [linux-dvb] DVB-T USB dib0700 device recommendations?

[H. Langos]

On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 08:54:09AM +0200, Markus Rechberger wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 13, 2009 at 4:18 AM, Marco Borm <linux-dvb@retrodesignfan.eu> wrote:
> > H. Langos wrote:
> >> I've been trying to minimize energy consumption [...] But before running
> >> out in the street and buying the first dib0700 device I'd like to know if
> >> there are any devices that are
> >>
> >> - especially good [...]
> >> or
> >> - especially bad [...]
> >>
> > Hi Henrik,
> >
> > one of the cards in my system is the dib0700 based "'Hauppauge Nova-T 500".
> > Compared with the "TerraTec Cinergy 1400" I would say that the receiver
> > sensitivity is worse but the main problem I have is that the card
> > consumes a loot of energy (8-13W), which is much more than the
> > Terratec(5-6W).
> 
> That's a little bit weird USB itself should provide max 5V 500mA which would be
> 2.5 Watt; if it requires more then the device has to be self powered.

I agree, it is wierd, there is a lot of hardware out there that strains the 
usb power supply way beyond the secified 500mA but that alone can't explain
the 8-13 Watt.

My guess is, that the rest of your system uses more energy because it has to
deal with a USB device instead of a PCI device. There is different hardware
involved that otherwise might not be powered at all and there's the whole USB 
protocol stack that is involved and possibly a usb hid device (the remote) that 
has to be polled x times per second. Don't let a name like "interrupt transfer
mode" fool you. USB transfers are always initiated by the host, so it has to
poll input devices a lot.

How exactly did you measure the power usage? 

Did you run the same software to test it? ("zap" uses way less energy than "vdr") 

The same channel? (Different bitrates even within the same channel can have
some effects)

I tried to minimize the effects of the software by making sure that an idle
system with the hardware installed has the same cpu load and
wakups-per-second as the system without that hardware. But it admit i didn't
measure power usage directly. Since I am only dealing with usb devices, I could 
run the usb pin 1 through an amp meter...

> Maybe you can try to use a different USB device (eg. storage) just for
> testing the
> consumption. USB is supposed to require alot power (the controller).
> You might try to unload the ehci/ohci driver too.

Yeap, thats the way to go.

And try running powertop to see if your cpu does any extra work even when
it should be idle.

> > I calculated this using measure values of the whole system captured with
> > a Conrad/Voltcraft Energy Monitor 3000.
> > Personally I am little bit shocked about that and wondering if this can
> > be true because the dib is a USB-device, but the Voltcraft is one of the
> > better measurement device.

Does it deal well with switched-mode power supplies? Those things tend to
confuse power measuring devices unless they have a good active PCF.

> > Maybe the VIA usb-hub controller on the board is the problem?!

Could be part of the problem. 

> > Would be interesting of someone has the same or other experiences with
> > this card or other PCI based cards. Hauppauge ignores all my questions,
> > so I can't recomment products of this manufacturer anyway.

Good to know. Thank you!

cheers
-henrik

Re: [linux-dvb] DVB-T USB dib0700 device recommendations?

[hermann pitton]

Hi Guys,

[snip]
> > > Maybe the VIA usb-hub controller on the board is the problem?!
> 
> Could be part of the problem. 
> 
> > > Would be interesting of someone has the same or other experiences with
> > > this card or other PCI based cards. Hauppauge ignores all my questions,
> > > so I can't recomment products of this manufacturer anyway.
> 
> Good to know. Thank you!
> 
> cheers
> -henrik
> 
> --

I try to avoid, when ever possible, to participate in such statements.

I don't even posses currently and never did previously any Hauppauge
device.

That you may end up in some m$ support only ring in somewhere on the
planet is also very likely too, but we also had very different results
in the past even for that.

In fact, Hauppauge's GNU/Linux support, let's say during the last five
years, is such outstanding well, that it is not even worth to try to
start counting, who other OEM can even come close to it.

On the higher level, chip manufacturers, we also had very good support
from Philips/NXP.

What you likely don't see is, that people who did this, did it still in
their unpaid and limited free time, but m$ driver only colleagues at
work might have helped as well sometimes.

And there is still a huge market for v4l-dvb related devices going over
the whole globe, it still increases like mad. It is a, count up
yourself, N $ market each year.

Since a lot of fish is springing out of the water, because of that, we
have this NDA problem.

So, if you would like to have an argument on this issue, you should be
able to count who has contributed _despite_ of that and you don't know.

Cheers,
Hermann

Re: [linux-dvb] DVB-T USB dib0700 device recommendations?

[Marco Borm]

hermann pitton wrote:
> Hi Guys,
>
> [snip]
>   
>>>> Hauppauge ignores all my questions,
>>>> so I can't recomment products of this manufacturer anyway.
>>>>         
>> Good to know. Thank you!
>>
>> cheers
>> -henrik
>>
>> --
>>     
>
> I try to avoid, when ever possible, to participate in such statements.
>
> I don't even posses currently and never did previously any Hauppauge
> device.
>
> That you may end up in some m$ support only ring in somewhere on the
> planet is also very likely too, but we also had very different results
> in the past even for that.
>
> In fact, Hauppauge's GNU/Linux support, let's say during the last five
> years, is such outstanding well, [...]
>   
Good to hear that the support on the backend is much better than on the 
early years of DVB+Linux.
Anyway as a customer I can't recommended products of a manufacturer if 
the customer "support" complete ignores any questions, and I don't asked 
something about linux.
But of course I am currently unable to appoint any company with good 
customer support, so maybe it doesn't make sense to use such a criteria 
if you want to buy something...

Marco

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