[linux-dvb] why opensource will fail

[linux-dvb] why opensource will fail

[Paul Chubb]

Hi,
     now that I have your attention:-{)=

I believe that this community has a real problem. There appears to be 
little willingness to help and mentor newcomers. This will limit the 
effectiveness of the community because it will hinder expansion of 
people who are both willing and able to work on the code. Eventually 
this issue  will lead to the community dying simply because you have 
people leaving but few joining.

The card I was working on has been around for  a while now. There have 
been three attempts so far to get it working with Linux. Two in this 
community and one against the mcentral.de tree. Both attempts in this 
community have failed not because of a lack of willingness of the people 
involved to do the hard yards but because of the inability of the 
community to mentor and help newcomers.

The third attempt by a Czech programmer succeeded, however it is 
dependent on the mcentral.de tree and the author appears to have made no 
attempt to get the patch into the tree. The original instructions to 
produce a driver set are in Czech. However instructions in english for 
2.6.22 are available - ubuntu gutsy. I will soon be putting up 
instructions for 2.6.24 - hardy. They may even work  for later revisions 
since the big issue was incompatible versioning.

I understand from recent posts to this list that many in the community 
are disturbed by the existence of mcentral.de. Well every person from 
now on who wants to run the Leadtek Winfast DTV1800H will be using that 
tree. Since the card is excellent value for what it is, there should be 
lots of them. Not helping newcomers who are trying to add cards has led 
and will lead to increased fragmentation.

And before you say or think that we are all volunteers here, I am a 
volunteer also. I have spent close to 3 weeks on this code and it is 
very close to working. The biggest difference between working code in 
the mcentral.de tree and the patch I was working on is the firmware that 
is used.

Finally you might consider that if few developers are prepared to work 
on the v4l-dvb tree, then much of the fun will disappear because those 
few will have to do everything.

Cheers Paul

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Re: [linux-dvb] why opensource will fail

[Igor M. Liplianin]

В сообщении от 13 September 2008 09:28:10 Paul Chubb написал(а):
> Hi,
>      now that I have your attention:-{)=
>
> I believe that this community has a real problem. There appears to be
> little willingness to help and mentor newcomers. This will limit the
> effectiveness of the community because it will hinder expansion of
> people who are both willing and able to work on the code. Eventually
> this issue  will lead to the community dying simply because you have
> people leaving but few joining.
>
> The card I was working on has been around for  a while now. There have
> been three attempts so far to get it working with Linux. Two in this
> community and one against the mcentral.de tree. Both attempts in this
> community have failed not because of a lack of willingness of the people
> involved to do the hard yards but because of the inability of the
> community to mentor and help newcomers.
>
> The third attempt by a Czech programmer succeeded, however it is
> dependent on the mcentral.de tree and the author appears to have made no
> attempt to get the patch into the tree. The original instructions to
> produce a driver set are in Czech. However instructions in english for
> 2.6.22 are available - ubuntu gutsy. I will soon be putting up
> instructions for 2.6.24 - hardy. They may even work  for later revisions
> since the big issue was incompatible versioning.
>
> I understand from recent posts to this list that many in the community
> are disturbed by the existence of mcentral.de. Well every person from
> now on who wants to run the Leadtek Winfast DTV1800H will be using that
> tree. Since the card is excellent value for what it is, there should be
> lots of them. Not helping newcomers who are trying to add cards has led
> and will lead to increased fragmentation.
>
> And before you say or think that we are all volunteers here, I am a
> volunteer also. I have spent close to 3 weeks on this code and it is
> very close to working. The biggest difference between working code in
> the mcentral.de tree and the patch I was working on is the firmware that
> is used.
>
> Finally you might consider that if few developers are prepared to work
> on the v4l-dvb tree, then much of the fun will disappear because those
> few will have to do everything.
>
> Cheers Paul

There is a question of time and patience.
Don't give up.

-- 
Igor M. Liplianin

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Re: [linux-dvb] why opensource will fail

[Steven Toth]

Paul Chubb wrote:
> Hi,
>      now that I have your attention:-{)=

.... You've also had my attention in the past, if I recall I have you 
tips about not using cx_write, instead using cx_set/cx_clear.

Your latest patch still doesn't have those changes btw. ;)


> 
> I believe that this community has a real problem. There appears to be 
> little willingness to help and mentor newcomers. This will limit the 
> effectiveness of the community because it will hinder expansion of 
> people who are both willing and able to work on the code. Eventually 
> this issue  will lead to the community dying simply because you have 
> people leaving but few joining.

I disagree with everything you've just said, but that's just my opinion.


> 
> The card I was working on has been around for  a while now. There have 
> been three attempts so far to get it working with Linux. Two in this 
> community and one against the mcentral.de tree. Both attempts in this 
> community have failed not because of a lack of willingness of the people 
> involved to do the hard yards but because of the inability of the 
> community to mentor and help newcomers.


Did I not try to help you? The one piece of initial feedback I gave you, 
you ignored. (see my opening statement).

I'm always willing to help people, but they also have to demonstrate 
that they are applying themselves, doing basic research, asking specific 
questions ... rather than, here's my patch - and What's Wrong with it.


> 
> The third attempt by a Czech programmer succeeded, however it is 
> dependent on the mcentral.de tree and the author appears to have made no 
> attempt to get the patch into the tree. The original instructions to 
> produce a driver set are in Czech. However instructions in english for 
> 2.6.22 are available - ubuntu gutsy. I will soon be putting up 
> instructions for 2.6.24 - hardy. They may even work  for later revisions 
> since the big issue was incompatible versioning.
> 
> I understand from recent posts to this list that many in the community 
> are disturbed by the existence of mcentral.de. Well every person from 
> now on who wants to run the Leadtek Winfast DTV1800H will be using that 
> tree. Since the card is excellent value for what it is, there should be 
> lots of them. Not helping newcomers who are trying to add cards has led 
> and will lead to increased fragmentation.

So port the mcentral.de details into the kernel, I doubt they'll be 
significantly different.... we're talking about adding support for an 
existing card, it's not a lot of engineering work.


> 
> And before you say or think that we are all volunteers here, I am a 
> volunteer also. I have spent close to 3 weeks on this code and it is 
> very close to working. The biggest difference between working code in 
> the mcentral.de tree and the patch I was working on is the firmware that 
> is used.

... and your efforts are valuable.

Markus (mcentral.de) is paid to work on Linux, just to be clear.

Your last message on that thread said: "xc2028 2-0061: xc2028/3028 
firmware name not set!"

You could of asked a second time before taking the opportunity to vent, 
and taking the community to task.

Showing patience and perseverance is what most other newcomers demonstrate.


> 
> Finally you might consider that if few developers are prepared to work 
> on the v4l-dvb tree, then much of the fun will disappear because those 
> few will have to do everything.

Whether we have 3 people or 30, it's never enough.

In my experience, people who join the list then vent all over it are 
rarely around long enough to make a difference. They often think they 
know more about the community than the community itself.

On the other hand, the people who join and ask well thought out 
questions, describe their failures and working assumptions, then 
demonstrate a willingness to learn attract a mentor very quickly.

... just my opinion of course :)

If you want to make progress with the leadtek card then another look at 
the feedback I gave you, then approach the group again with a more 
insightful email.

Maybe someone will help you then.

- Steve



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Re: [linux-dvb] why opensource will fail

[Paul Chubb]

Hi Steven
Steven Toth wrote:
> Paul Chubb wrote:
>> Hi,
>>      now that I have your attention:-{)=
>
> .... You've also had my attention in the past, if I recall I have you 
> tips about not using cx_write, instead using cx_set/cx_clear.
>
> Your latest patch still doesn't have those changes btw. ;)
Yes I have had your attention. Your two emails were the exception to the 
rule. On the cx_write issue, I took that advice on board. If you look at 
the latest patch you will see that the code was changed and then 
commented out. Remember I was porting a working patch. Since the changes 
did not fix any of the problems I was having and since the patch was 
working I commented them out. Once the patch was working I would have 
returned and put them back. The issue with the advice was the question 
of whether the patch writer intended to set the other GPIO bits in that 
code.
>
>
>>
>> I believe that this community has a real problem. There appears to be 
>> little willingness to help and mentor newcomers. This will limit the 
>> effectiveness of the community because it will hinder expansion of 
>> people who are both willing and able to work on the code. Eventually 
>> this issue  will lead to the community dying simply because you have 
>> people leaving but few joining.
>
> I disagree with everything you've just said, but that's just my opinion.
>
>
>>
>> The card I was working on has been around for  a while now. There 
>> have been three attempts so far to get it working with Linux. Two in 
>> this community and one against the mcentral.de tree. Both attempts in 
>> this community have failed not because of a lack of willingness of 
>> the people involved to do the hard yards but because of the inability 
>> of the community to mentor and help newcomers.
>
>
> Did I not try to help you? The one piece of initial feedback I gave 
> you, you ignored. (see my opening statement).
>
> I'm always willing to help people, but they also have to demonstrate 
> that they are applying themselves, doing basic research, asking 
> specific questions ... rather than, here's my patch - and What's Wrong 
> with it.
Let me see, 3 weeks work. Reading the communities documentation. Reading 
the code. Looking up the specific chips. Bottom line is that if you 
don't know what is normal behavior and what is not it is difficult to 
ask the right questions. I had never even seen a dmesg of one of these 
cards starting up and there is very little documentation of the code 
that is detailed enough to get you over those kind of learning humps.
>>
>> The third attempt by a Czech programmer succeeded, however it is 
>> dependent on the mcentral.de tree and the author appears to have made 
>> no attempt to get the patch into the tree. The original instructions 
>> to produce a driver set are in Czech. However instructions in english 
>> for 2.6.22 are available - ubuntu gutsy. I will soon be putting up 
>> instructions for 2.6.24 - hardy. They may even work  for later 
>> revisions since the big issue was incompatible versioning.
>>
>> I understand from recent posts to this list that many in the 
>> community are disturbed by the existence of mcentral.de. Well every 
>> person from now on who wants to run the Leadtek Winfast DTV1800H will 
>> be using that tree. Since the card is excellent value for what it is, 
>> there should be lots of them. Not helping newcomers who are trying to 
>> add cards has led and will lead to increased fragmentation.
>
> So port the mcentral.de details into the kernel, I doubt they'll be 
> significantly different.... we're talking about adding support for an 
> existing card, it's not a lot of engineering work.
>
As I said elsewhere. Trivial for someone who knows the code but a couple 
of weeks effort for someone like me who doesn't
>>
>> And before you say or think that we are all volunteers here, I am a 
>> volunteer also. I have spent close to 3 weeks on this code and it is 
>> very close to working. The biggest difference between working code in 
>> the mcentral.de tree and the patch I was working on is the firmware 
>> that is used.
>
> ... and your efforts are valuable.
>
> Markus (mcentral.de) is paid to work on Linux, just to be clear.
So are many people, Linus included. They generally break down into 
people who get it and those that don't.
>
> Your last message on that thread said: "xc2028 2-0061: xc2028/3028 
> firmware name not set!"
>
> You could of asked a second time before taking the opportunity to 
> vent, and taking the community to task.
>
> Showing patience and perseverance is what most other newcomers 
> demonstrate.
I don't believe I have either vented or taken the community to task. I 
have pointed out, as an outsider, that there is a problem and have done 
so in a way  that has attempted to be polite but also to paint why it is 
important. If you found it impolite, please accept my apology.

"patience and perseverance" demonstrates the meat of my comment. The 
higher the bar to contribute the less people will try.
>
>
>>
>> Finally you might consider that if few developers are prepared to 
>> work on the v4l-dvb tree, then much of the fun will disappear because 
>> those few will have to do everything.
>
> Whether we have 3 people or 30, it's never enough.
>
> In my experience, people who join the list then vent all over it are 
> rarely around long enough to make a difference. They often think they 
> know more about the community than the community itself.
While I don't agree that I have vented, there is a certain self 
fulfillment in your observation. And I bet there are also lots of people 
who try and just disappear off the list.
>
> On the other hand, the people who join and ask well thought out 
> questions, describe their failures and working assumptions, then 
> demonstrate a willingness to learn attract a mentor very quickly.
>
> ... just my opinion of course :)
>
> If you want to make progress with the leadtek card then another look 
> at the feedback I gave you, then approach the group again with a more 
> insightful email.
Back when I was young I wanted to do OS development specifically 
hardware/software interfaces. Since Australia in those days did 
practically none of this work, I did systems development in C on a NOS 
called Banyan VINES.

I wanted to have a mythtv setup. The easiest solution was to simply get 
the Czech patch working. However I believed it to be a better solution 
to get it into the standard tree. As you pointed out it is not supposed 
to be a hard job.

At this point I have a working card outside of the standard v4l-dvb 
tree. Continuing would require love and enthusiasm.
>
> Maybe someone will help you then.
>
> - Steve
>

>
>


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Re: [linux-dvb] why opensource will fail

[Tim Lucas]

[-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 5648 bytes --]

>
> Message: 7
> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 16:31:16 -0400
> From: Steven Toth <stoth@linuxtv.org>
> Subject: Re: [linux-dvb] why opensource will fail
> To: Paul Chubb <paulc@singlespoon.org.au>
> Cc: linux dvb <linux-dvb@linuxtv.org>
> Message-ID: <48CC2314.4090800@linuxtv.org>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>
> Paul Chubb wrote:
> > Hi,
> >      now that I have your attention:-{)=
>
> .... You've also had my attention in the past, if I recall I have you
> tips about not using cx_write, instead using cx_set/cx_clear.
>
> Your latest patch still doesn't have those changes btw. ;)
>
>
> >
> > I believe that this community has a real problem. There appears to be
> > little willingness to help and mentor newcomers. This will limit the
> > effectiveness of the community because it will hinder expansion of
> > people who are both willing and able to work on the code. Eventually
> > this issue  will lead to the community dying simply because you have
> > people leaving but few joining.
>
> I disagree with everything you've just said, but that's just my opinion.
>
>
> >
> > The card I was working on has been around for  a while now. There have
> > been three attempts so far to get it working with Linux. Two in this
> > community and one against the mcentral.de tree. Both attempts in this
> > community have failed not because of a lack of willingness of the people
> > involved to do the hard yards but because of the inability of the
> > community to mentor and help newcomers.
>
>
> Did I not try to help you? The one piece of initial feedback I gave you,
> you ignored. (see my opening statement).
>
> I'm always willing to help people, but they also have to demonstrate
> that they are applying themselves, doing basic research, asking specific
> questions ... rather than, here's my patch - and What's Wrong with it.
>
>
> >
> > The third attempt by a Czech programmer succeeded, however it is
> > dependent on the mcentral.de tree and the author appears to have made no
> > attempt to get the patch into the tree. The original instructions to
> > produce a driver set are in Czech. However instructions in english for
> > 2.6.22 are available - ubuntu gutsy. I will soon be putting up
> > instructions for 2.6.24 - hardy. They may even work  for later revisions
> > since the big issue was incompatible versioning.
> >
> > I understand from recent posts to this list that many in the community
> > are disturbed by the existence of mcentral.de. Well every person from
> > now on who wants to run the Leadtek Winfast DTV1800H will be using that
> > tree. Since the card is excellent value for what it is, there should be
> > lots of them. Not helping newcomers who are trying to add cards has led
> > and will lead to increased fragmentation.
>
> So port the mcentral.de details into the kernel, I doubt they'll be
> significantly different.... we're talking about adding support for an
> existing card, it's not a lot of engineering work.
>
>
> >
> > And before you say or think that we are all volunteers here, I am a
> > volunteer also. I have spent close to 3 weeks on this code and it is
> > very close to working. The biggest difference between working code in
> > the mcentral.de tree and the patch I was working on is the firmware that
> > is used.
>
> ... and your efforts are valuable.
>
> Markus (mcentral.de) is paid to work on Linux, just to be clear.
>
> Your last message on that thread said: "xc2028 2-0061: xc2028/3028
> firmware name not set!"
>
> You could of asked a second time before taking the opportunity to vent,
> and taking the community to task.
>
> Showing patience and perseverance is what most other newcomers demonstrate.
>
>
> >
> > Finally you might consider that if few developers are prepared to work
> > on the v4l-dvb tree, then much of the fun will disappear because those
> > few will have to do everything.
>
> Whether we have 3 people or 30, it's never enough.
>
> In my experience, people who join the list then vent all over it are
> rarely around long enough to make a difference. They often think they
> know more about the community than the community itself.
>
> On the other hand, the people who join and ask well thought out
> questions, describe their failures and working assumptions, then
> demonstrate a willingness to learn attract a mentor very quickly.
>
> ... just my opinion of course :)
>
> If you want to make progress with the leadtek card then another look at
> the feedback I gave you, then approach the group again with a more
> insightful email.
>
> Maybe someone will help you then.
>
> - Steve
>
>
I would like to respond to this because I have been sending messages to the
list asking for help, but after a couple initial suggestions, I have been
completely ignored.  I need to work with the cx23885 drivers with analog
support that Steve wrote, because they are the only ones around, but how am
I supposed to get them to work if the person who wrote them will not help
me.   I even reported progress, but I was still ignored.  In fact, I saw
other people get help with questions that were as silly as mine, but for
some reason I cannot get any help from Steve or anyone else on the list.  I
have said before that I am willing to do some of the work, but there is a
steep learning curve.
If I have done something against the rules or to deserve this treatment, I
would appreciate someone letting me know instead of just ignoring me.  Where
else can I go for help?

If anyone has any suggestions about what I can do, please see my latest
posts to the list about analog support for cx23885 cards.  Thank you.

     --Tim




-- 
--Tim

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Re: [linux-dvb] why opensource will fail

[Steven Toth]

Tim Lucas wrote:
>     Message: 7
>     Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 16:31:16 -0400
>     From: Steven Toth <stoth@linuxtv.org <mailto:stoth@linuxtv.org>>
>     Subject: Re: [linux-dvb] why opensource will fail
>     To: Paul Chubb <paulc@singlespoon.org.au
>     <mailto:paulc@singlespoon.org.au>>
>     Cc: linux dvb <linux-dvb@linuxtv.org <mailto:linux-dvb@linuxtv.org>>
>     Message-ID: <48CC2314.4090800@linuxtv.org
>     <mailto:48CC2314.4090800@linuxtv.org>>
>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
> 
>     Paul Chubb wrote:
>      > Hi,
>      >      now that I have your attention:-{)=
> 
>     .... You've also had my attention in the past, if I recall I have you
>     tips about not using cx_write, instead using cx_set/cx_clear.
> 
>     Your latest patch still doesn't have those changes btw. ;)
> 
> 
>      >
>      > I believe that this community has a real problem. There appears to be
>      > little willingness to help and mentor newcomers. This will limit the
>      > effectiveness of the community because it will hinder expansion of
>      > people who are both willing and able to work on the code. Eventually
>      > this issue  will lead to the community dying simply because you have
>      > people leaving but few joining.
> 
>     I disagree with everything you've just said, but that's just my opinion.
> 
> 
>      >
>      > The card I was working on has been around for  a while now. There
>     have
>      > been three attempts so far to get it working with Linux. Two in this
>      > community and one against the mcentral.de <http://mcentral.de>
>     tree. Both attempts in this
>      > community have failed not because of a lack of willingness of the
>     people
>      > involved to do the hard yards but because of the inability of the
>      > community to mentor and help newcomers.
> 
> 
>     Did I not try to help you? The one piece of initial feedback I gave you,
>     you ignored. (see my opening statement).
> 
>     I'm always willing to help people, but they also have to demonstrate
>     that they are applying themselves, doing basic research, asking specific
>     questions ... rather than, here's my patch - and What's Wrong with it.
> 
> 
>      >
>      > The third attempt by a Czech programmer succeeded, however it is
>      > dependent on the mcentral.de <http://mcentral.de> tree and the
>     author appears to have made no
>      > attempt to get the patch into the tree. The original instructions to
>      > produce a driver set are in Czech. However instructions in
>     english for
>      > 2.6.22 are available - ubuntu gutsy. I will soon be putting up
>      > instructions for 2.6.24 - hardy. They may even work  for later
>     revisions
>      > since the big issue was incompatible versioning.
>      >
>      > I understand from recent posts to this list that many in the
>     community
>      > are disturbed by the existence of mcentral.de
>     <http://mcentral.de>. Well every person from
>      > now on who wants to run the Leadtek Winfast DTV1800H will be
>     using that
>      > tree. Since the card is excellent value for what it is, there
>     should be
>      > lots of them. Not helping newcomers who are trying to add cards
>     has led
>      > and will lead to increased fragmentation.
> 
>     So port the mcentral.de <http://mcentral.de> details into the
>     kernel, I doubt they'll be
>     significantly different.... we're talking about adding support for an
>     existing card, it's not a lot of engineering work.
> 
> 
>      >
>      > And before you say or think that we are all volunteers here, I am a
>      > volunteer also. I have spent close to 3 weeks on this code and it is
>      > very close to working. The biggest difference between working code in
>      > the mcentral.de <http://mcentral.de> tree and the patch I was
>     working on is the firmware that
>      > is used.
> 
>     ... and your efforts are valuable.
> 
>     Markus (mcentral.de <http://mcentral.de>) is paid to work on Linux,
>     just to be clear.
> 
>     Your last message on that thread said: "xc2028 2-0061: xc2028/3028
>     firmware name not set!"
> 
>     You could of asked a second time before taking the opportunity to vent,
>     and taking the community to task.
> 
>     Showing patience and perseverance is what most other newcomers
>     demonstrate.
> 
> 
>      >
>      > Finally you might consider that if few developers are prepared to
>     work
>      > on the v4l-dvb tree, then much of the fun will disappear because
>     those
>      > few will have to do everything.
> 
>     Whether we have 3 people or 30, it's never enough.
> 
>     In my experience, people who join the list then vent all over it are
>     rarely around long enough to make a difference. They often think they
>     know more about the community than the community itself.
> 
>     On the other hand, the people who join and ask well thought out
>     questions, describe their failures and working assumptions, then
>     demonstrate a willingness to learn attract a mentor very quickly.
> 
>     ... just my opinion of course :)
> 
>     If you want to make progress with the leadtek card then another look at
>     the feedback I gave you, then approach the group again with a more
>     insightful email.
> 
>     Maybe someone will help you then.
> 
>     - Steve
> 
> 
> I would like to respond to this because I have been sending messages to 
> the list asking for help, but after a couple initial suggestions, I have 
> been completely ignored.  I need to work with the cx23885 drivers with 
> analog support that Steve wrote, because they are the only ones around, 
> but how am I supposed to get them to work if the person who wrote them 
> will not help me.   I even reported progress, but I was still ignored. 
>  In fact, I saw other people get help with questions that were as silly 
> as mine, but for some reason I cannot get any help from Steve or anyone 
> else on the list.  I have said before that I am willing to do some of 
> the work, but there is a steep learning curve.  
> 
> If I have done something against the rules or to deserve this treatment, 
> I would appreciate someone letting me know instead of just ignoring me. 
>  Where else can I go for help? 
> 
> If anyone has any suggestions about what I can do, please see my latest 
> posts to the list about analog support for cx23885 cards.  Thank you.
> 
>      --Tim

Tim,

Just to be clear, they're not my patches I just offered to merge them. :)

The people who can help are busy working on other projects, that's just 
the way Linux development works. I tend to work on Hauppauge hardware 
projects first then anything else if I have time.

Too many people come to the list and have their problems solved and give 
nothing in return. This is bad. They walk away feeling pretty happy but 
they don't stop behind to help 2 other people. If everyone I helped 
stopped to help 2 other people then the group would be a better place. 
Likewise for all of the other developers in this group.

In the end, people stop helping each other because it's a non-stop tide 
of help requests, for little in return.

I'm not suggesting that you do that, I'm suggest that's why the group is 
the way it is.

Stick around, when people have enough time you'll get some attention.

- Steve

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[linux-dvb] Fwd: why opensource will fail

[Román]

2008/9/16 Steven Toth <stoth@linuxtv.org>:
> Tim Lucas wrote:
>>     Message: 7
>>     Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 16:31:16 -0400
>>     From: Steven Toth <stoth@linuxtv.org <mailto:stoth@linuxtv.org>>
>>     Subject: Re: [linux-dvb] why opensource will fail
>>     To: Paul Chubb <paulc@singlespoon.org.au
>>     <mailto:paulc@singlespoon.org.au>>
>>     Cc: linux dvb <linux-dvb@linuxtv.org <mailto:linux-dvb@linuxtv.org>>
>>     Message-ID: <48CC2314.4090800@linuxtv.org
>>     <mailto:48CC2314.4090800@linuxtv.org>>
>>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>
>>     Paul Chubb wrote:
>>      > Hi,
>>      >      now that I have your attention:-{)=
>>
>>     .... You've also had my attention in the past, if I recall I have you
>>     tips about not using cx_write, instead using cx_set/cx_clear.
>>
>>     Your latest patch still doesn't have those changes btw. ;)
>>
>>
>>      >
>>      > I believe that this community has a real problem. There appears to be
>>      > little willingness to help and mentor newcomers. This will limit the
>>      > effectiveness of the community because it will hinder expansion of
>>      > people who are both willing and able to work on the code. Eventually
>>      > this issue  will lead to the community dying simply because you have
>>      > people leaving but few joining.
>>
>>     I disagree with everything you've just said, but that's just my opinion.
>>
>>
>>      >
>>      > The card I was working on has been around for  a while now. There
>>     have
>>      > been three attempts so far to get it working with Linux. Two in this
>>      > community and one against the mcentral.de <http://mcentral.de>
>>     tree. Both attempts in this
>>      > community have failed not because of a lack of willingness of the
>>     people
>>      > involved to do the hard yards but because of the inability of the
>>      > community to mentor and help newcomers.
>>
>>
>>     Did I not try to help you? The one piece of initial feedback I gave you,
>>     you ignored. (see my opening statement).
>>
>>     I'm always willing to help people, but they also have to demonstrate
>>     that they are applying themselves, doing basic research, asking specific
>>     questions ... rather than, here's my patch - and What's Wrong with it.
>>
>>
>>      >
>>      > The third attempt by a Czech programmer succeeded, however it is
>>      > dependent on the mcentral.de <http://mcentral.de> tree and the
>>     author appears to have made no
>>      > attempt to get the patch into the tree. The original instructions to
>>      > produce a driver set are in Czech. However instructions in
>>     english for
>>      > 2.6.22 are available - ubuntu gutsy. I will soon be putting up
>>      > instructions for 2.6.24 - hardy. They may even work  for later
>>     revisions
>>      > since the big issue was incompatible versioning.
>>      >
>>      > I understand from recent posts to this list that many in the
>>     community
>>      > are disturbed by the existence of mcentral.de
>>     <http://mcentral.de>. Well every person from
>>      > now on who wants to run the Leadtek Winfast DTV1800H will be
>>     using that
>>      > tree. Since the card is excellent value for what it is, there
>>     should be
>>      > lots of them. Not helping newcomers who are trying to add cards
>>     has led
>>      > and will lead to increased fragmentation.
>>
>>     So port the mcentral.de <http://mcentral.de> details into the
>>     kernel, I doubt they'll be
>>     significantly different.... we're talking about adding support for an
>>     existing card, it's not a lot of engineering work.
>>
>>
>>      >
>>      > And before you say or think that we are all volunteers here, I am a
>>      > volunteer also. I have spent close to 3 weeks on this code and it is
>>      > very close to working. The biggest difference between working code in
>>      > the mcentral.de <http://mcentral.de> tree and the patch I was
>>     working on is the firmware that
>>      > is used.
>>
>>     ... and your efforts are valuable.
>>
>>     Markus (mcentral.de <http://mcentral.de>) is paid to work on Linux,
>>     just to be clear.
>>
>>     Your last message on that thread said: "xc2028 2-0061: xc2028/3028
>>     firmware name not set!"
>>
>>     You could of asked a second time before taking the opportunity to vent,
>>     and taking the community to task.
>>
>>     Showing patience and perseverance is what most other newcomers
>>     demonstrate.
>>
>>
>>      >
>>      > Finally you might consider that if few developers are prepared to
>>     work
>>      > on the v4l-dvb tree, then much of the fun will disappear because
>>     those
>>      > few will have to do everything.
>>
>>     Whether we have 3 people or 30, it's never enough.
>>
>>     In my experience, people who join the list then vent all over it are
>>     rarely around long enough to make a difference. They often think they
>>     know more about the community than the community itself.
>>
>>     On the other hand, the people who join and ask well thought out
>>     questions, describe their failures and working assumptions, then
>>     demonstrate a willingness to learn attract a mentor very quickly.
>>
>>     ... just my opinion of course :)
>>
>>     If you want to make progress with the leadtek card then another look at
>>     the feedback I gave you, then approach the group again with a more
>>     insightful email.
>>
>>     Maybe someone will help you then.
>>
>>     - Steve
>>
>>
>> I would like to respond to this because I have been sending messages to
>> the list asking for help, but after a couple initial suggestions, I have
>> been completely ignored.  I need to work with the cx23885 drivers with
>> analog support that Steve wrote, because they are the only ones around,
>> but how am I supposed to get them to work if the person who wrote them
>> will not help me.   I even reported progress, but I was still ignored.
>>  In fact, I saw other people get help with questions that were as silly
>> as mine, but for some reason I cannot get any help from Steve or anyone
>> else on the list.  I have said before that I am willing to do some of
>> the work, but there is a steep learning curve.
>>
>> If I have done something against the rules or to deserve this treatment,
>> I would appreciate someone letting me know instead of just ignoring me.
>>  Where else can I go for help?
>>
>> If anyone has any suggestions about what I can do, please see my latest
>> posts to the list about analog support for cx23885 cards.  Thank you.
>>
>>      --Tim
>
> Tim,
>
> Just to be clear, they're not my patches I just offered to merge them. :)
>
> The people who can help are busy working on other projects, that's just
> the way Linux development works. I tend to work on Hauppauge hardware
> projects first then anything else if I have time.
>
> Too many people come to the list and have their problems solved and give
> nothing in return. This is bad. They walk away feeling pretty happy but
> they don't stop behind to help 2 other people. If everyone I helped
> stopped to help 2 other people then the group would be a better place.
> Likewise for all of the other developers in this group.
>
> In the end, people stop helping each other because it's a non-stop tide
> of help requests, for little in return.
>
> I'm not suggesting that you do that, I'm suggest that's why the group is
> the way it is.
>
> Stick around, when people have enough time you'll get some attention.
>
> - Steve
>
> _______________________________________________
> linux-dvb mailing list
> linux-dvb@linuxtv.org
> http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-dvb
>

I think the main problem is not having separate lists for development
and help/support. The development efforts suffer a lot from this. I
did experience that silence myself when working on adding support for
my device; at first, the linuxtv community seemed to ignore me, but
after a lot of patience and insistence, I got positive replays from
Antii and others. Then, I knew the problem was the high load of the
list (Apart from regular e-mail, I'm subscribed to about a dozen
lists, but 80% of my inbox is from linuxtv).

Anyway, IMHO there's no easy solution to this: for instance, a problem
regarding compilation on Ubuntu with the latest svn branch is hard to
classify as development or support or both. Maybe it'd be a better
idea to have a lot of lists for specific tasks: one for core/api
development, one for new devices and drivers, one for new channel
files, seamless patches and such, and one for suggestions and
requests. I don't know.

Any other ideas?

--
 Román

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linux-dvb@linuxtv.org
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Re: [linux-dvb] Fwd: why opensource will fail

[Steven Toth]

Román wrote:
> 2008/9/16 Steven Toth <stoth@linuxtv.org>:
>> Tim Lucas wrote:
>>>     Message: 7
>>>     Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 16:31:16 -0400
>>>     From: Steven Toth <stoth@linuxtv.org <mailto:stoth@linuxtv.org>>
>>>     Subject: Re: [linux-dvb] why opensource will fail
>>>     To: Paul Chubb <paulc@singlespoon.org.au
>>>     <mailto:paulc@singlespoon.org.au>>
>>>     Cc: linux dvb <linux-dvb@linuxtv.org <mailto:linux-dvb@linuxtv.org>>
>>>     Message-ID: <48CC2314.4090800@linuxtv.org
>>>     <mailto:48CC2314.4090800@linuxtv.org>>
>>>     Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
>>>
>>>     Paul Chubb wrote:
>>>      > Hi,
>>>      >      now that I have your attention:-{)=
>>>
>>>     .... You've also had my attention in the past, if I recall I have you
>>>     tips about not using cx_write, instead using cx_set/cx_clear.
>>>
>>>     Your latest patch still doesn't have those changes btw. ;)
>>>
>>>
>>>      >
>>>      > I believe that this community has a real problem. There appears to be
>>>      > little willingness to help and mentor newcomers. This will limit the
>>>      > effectiveness of the community because it will hinder expansion of
>>>      > people who are both willing and able to work on the code. Eventually
>>>      > this issue  will lead to the community dying simply because you have
>>>      > people leaving but few joining.
>>>
>>>     I disagree with everything you've just said, but that's just my opinion.
>>>
>>>
>>>      >
>>>      > The card I was working on has been around for  a while now. There
>>>     have
>>>      > been three attempts so far to get it working with Linux. Two in this
>>>      > community and one against the mcentral.de <http://mcentral.de>
>>>     tree. Both attempts in this
>>>      > community have failed not because of a lack of willingness of the
>>>     people
>>>      > involved to do the hard yards but because of the inability of the
>>>      > community to mentor and help newcomers.
>>>
>>>
>>>     Did I not try to help you? The one piece of initial feedback I gave you,
>>>     you ignored. (see my opening statement).
>>>
>>>     I'm always willing to help people, but they also have to demonstrate
>>>     that they are applying themselves, doing basic research, asking specific
>>>     questions ... rather than, here's my patch - and What's Wrong with it.
>>>
>>>
>>>      >
>>>      > The third attempt by a Czech programmer succeeded, however it is
>>>      > dependent on the mcentral.de <http://mcentral.de> tree and the
>>>     author appears to have made no
>>>      > attempt to get the patch into the tree. The original instructions to
>>>      > produce a driver set are in Czech. However instructions in
>>>     english for
>>>      > 2.6.22 are available - ubuntu gutsy. I will soon be putting up
>>>      > instructions for 2.6.24 - hardy. They may even work  for later
>>>     revisions
>>>      > since the big issue was incompatible versioning.
>>>      >
>>>      > I understand from recent posts to this list that many in the
>>>     community
>>>      > are disturbed by the existence of mcentral.de
>>>     <http://mcentral.de>. Well every person from
>>>      > now on who wants to run the Leadtek Winfast DTV1800H will be
>>>     using that
>>>      > tree. Since the card is excellent value for what it is, there
>>>     should be
>>>      > lots of them. Not helping newcomers who are trying to add cards
>>>     has led
>>>      > and will lead to increased fragmentation.
>>>
>>>     So port the mcentral.de <http://mcentral.de> details into the
>>>     kernel, I doubt they'll be
>>>     significantly different.... we're talking about adding support for an
>>>     existing card, it's not a lot of engineering work.
>>>
>>>
>>>      >
>>>      > And before you say or think that we are all volunteers here, I am a
>>>      > volunteer also. I have spent close to 3 weeks on this code and it is
>>>      > very close to working. The biggest difference between working code in
>>>      > the mcentral.de <http://mcentral.de> tree and the patch I was
>>>     working on is the firmware that
>>>      > is used.
>>>
>>>     ... and your efforts are valuable.
>>>
>>>     Markus (mcentral.de <http://mcentral.de>) is paid to work on Linux,
>>>     just to be clear.
>>>
>>>     Your last message on that thread said: "xc2028 2-0061: xc2028/3028
>>>     firmware name not set!"
>>>
>>>     You could of asked a second time before taking the opportunity to vent,
>>>     and taking the community to task.
>>>
>>>     Showing patience and perseverance is what most other newcomers
>>>     demonstrate.
>>>
>>>
>>>      >
>>>      > Finally you might consider that if few developers are prepared to
>>>     work
>>>      > on the v4l-dvb tree, then much of the fun will disappear because
>>>     those
>>>      > few will have to do everything.
>>>
>>>     Whether we have 3 people or 30, it's never enough.
>>>
>>>     In my experience, people who join the list then vent all over it are
>>>     rarely around long enough to make a difference. They often think they
>>>     know more about the community than the community itself.
>>>
>>>     On the other hand, the people who join and ask well thought out
>>>     questions, describe their failures and working assumptions, then
>>>     demonstrate a willingness to learn attract a mentor very quickly.
>>>
>>>     ... just my opinion of course :)
>>>
>>>     If you want to make progress with the leadtek card then another look at
>>>     the feedback I gave you, then approach the group again with a more
>>>     insightful email.
>>>
>>>     Maybe someone will help you then.
>>>
>>>     - Steve
>>>
>>>
>>> I would like to respond to this because I have been sending messages to
>>> the list asking for help, but after a couple initial suggestions, I have
>>> been completely ignored.  I need to work with the cx23885 drivers with
>>> analog support that Steve wrote, because they are the only ones around,
>>> but how am I supposed to get them to work if the person who wrote them
>>> will not help me.   I even reported progress, but I was still ignored.
>>>  In fact, I saw other people get help with questions that were as silly
>>> as mine, but for some reason I cannot get any help from Steve or anyone
>>> else on the list.  I have said before that I am willing to do some of
>>> the work, but there is a steep learning curve.
>>>
>>> If I have done something against the rules or to deserve this treatment,
>>> I would appreciate someone letting me know instead of just ignoring me.
>>>  Where else can I go for help?
>>>
>>> If anyone has any suggestions about what I can do, please see my latest
>>> posts to the list about analog support for cx23885 cards.  Thank you.
>>>
>>>      --Tim
>> Tim,
>>
>> Just to be clear, they're not my patches I just offered to merge them. :)
>>
>> The people who can help are busy working on other projects, that's just
>> the way Linux development works. I tend to work on Hauppauge hardware
>> projects first then anything else if I have time.
>>
>> Too many people come to the list and have their problems solved and give
>> nothing in return. This is bad. They walk away feeling pretty happy but
>> they don't stop behind to help 2 other people. If everyone I helped
>> stopped to help 2 other people then the group would be a better place.
>> Likewise for all of the other developers in this group.
>>
>> In the end, people stop helping each other because it's a non-stop tide
>> of help requests, for little in return.
>>
>> I'm not suggesting that you do that, I'm suggest that's why the group is
>> the way it is.
>>
>> Stick around, when people have enough time you'll get some attention.
>>
>> - Steve
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> linux-dvb mailing list
>> linux-dvb@linuxtv.org
>> http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-dvb
>>
> 
> I think the main problem is not having separate lists for development
> and help/support. The development efforts suffer a lot from this. I
> did experience that silence myself when working on adding support for
> my device; at first, the linuxtv community seemed to ignore me, but
> after a lot of patience and insistence, I got positive replays from

Good, so you stuck around and started to reap the benefits. I'm glad, 
and the community is now better for that. Thank you! :)

A common mistake people make is that they join the list, very 
enthusiastic, and receive very little feedback from the long time 
developers, so they get a little grumpy. "Linux will fail, I'm trying to 
help but nobody is helping me.... etc"

If new developers show patience, keep nagging the list, demonstrate that 
they're here to help in various different ways, mentors appear and help 
is given.

Help is not an automatic right, it's a gift given from other users.

Of course, this is only my opinion.

- Steve


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