From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-path: Received: from mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net ([167.206.4.197]) by www.linuxtv.org with esmtp (Exim 4.63) (envelope-from ) id 1KfdWe-0006mg-63 for linux-dvb@linuxtv.org; Tue, 16 Sep 2008 18:35:41 +0200 Received: from steven-toths-macbook-pro.local (ool-18bfe594.dyn.optonline.net [24.191.229.148]) by mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net (Sun Java System Messaging Server 6.2-8.04 (built Feb 28 2007)) with ESMTP id <0K7A00CGMREFSSD0@mta2.srv.hcvlny.cv.net> for linux-dvb@linuxtv.org; Tue, 16 Sep 2008 12:35:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 16 Sep 2008 12:35:02 -0400 From: Steven Toth In-reply-to: <28a25ce0809160308u79b67730u8a53d5db1d19f87e@mail.gmail.com> To: =?ISO-8859-1?Q?Rom=E1n?= Message-id: <48CFE036.4070306@linuxtv.org> MIME-version: 1.0 References: <48CEF1CE.8080202@linuxtv.org> <28a25ce0809160307p50bf7126n1a486374857d5893@mail.gmail.com> <28a25ce0809160308u79b67730u8a53d5db1d19f87e@mail.gmail.com> Cc: linux-dvb@linuxtv.org Subject: Re: [linux-dvb] Fwd: why opensource will fail List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Sender: linux-dvb-bounces@linuxtv.org Errors-To: linux-dvb-bounces+mchehab=infradead.org@linuxtv.org List-ID: Rom=E1n wrote: > 2008/9/16 Steven Toth : >> Tim Lucas wrote: >>> Message: 7 >>> Date: Sat, 13 Sep 2008 16:31:16 -0400 >>> From: Steven Toth > >>> Subject: Re: [linux-dvb] why opensource will fail >>> To: Paul Chubb >> > >>> Cc: linux dvb > >>> Message-ID: <48CC2314.4090800@linuxtv.org >>> > >>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=3DISO-8859-1; format=3Dflowed >>> >>> Paul Chubb wrote: >>> > Hi, >>> > now that I have your attention:-{)=3D >>> >>> .... You've also had my attention in the past, if I recall I have y= ou >>> tips about not using cx_write, instead using cx_set/cx_clear. >>> >>> Your latest patch still doesn't have those changes btw. ;) >>> >>> >>> > >>> > I believe that this community has a real problem. There appears = to be >>> > little willingness to help and mentor newcomers. This will limit= the >>> > effectiveness of the community because it will hinder expansion = of >>> > people who are both willing and able to work on the code. Eventu= ally >>> > this issue will lead to the community dying simply because you = have >>> > people leaving but few joining. >>> >>> I disagree with everything you've just said, but that's just my opi= nion. >>> >>> >>> > >>> > The card I was working on has been around for a while now. There >>> have >>> > been three attempts so far to get it working with Linux. Two in = this >>> > community and one against the mcentral.de >>> tree. Both attempts in this >>> > community have failed not because of a lack of willingness of the >>> people >>> > involved to do the hard yards but because of the inability of the >>> > community to mentor and help newcomers. >>> >>> >>> Did I not try to help you? The one piece of initial feedback I gave= you, >>> you ignored. (see my opening statement). >>> >>> I'm always willing to help people, but they also have to demonstrate >>> that they are applying themselves, doing basic research, asking spe= cific >>> questions ... rather than, here's my patch - and What's Wrong with = it. >>> >>> >>> > >>> > The third attempt by a Czech programmer succeeded, however it is >>> > dependent on the mcentral.de tree and the >>> author appears to have made no >>> > attempt to get the patch into the tree. The original instruction= s to >>> > produce a driver set are in Czech. However instructions in >>> english for >>> > 2.6.22 are available - ubuntu gutsy. I will soon be putting up >>> > instructions for 2.6.24 - hardy. They may even work for later >>> revisions >>> > since the big issue was incompatible versioning. >>> > >>> > I understand from recent posts to this list that many in the >>> community >>> > are disturbed by the existence of mcentral.de >>> . Well every person from >>> > now on who wants to run the Leadtek Winfast DTV1800H will be >>> using that >>> > tree. Since the card is excellent value for what it is, there >>> should be >>> > lots of them. Not helping newcomers who are trying to add cards >>> has led >>> > and will lead to increased fragmentation. >>> >>> So port the mcentral.de details into the >>> kernel, I doubt they'll be >>> significantly different.... we're talking about adding support for = an >>> existing card, it's not a lot of engineering work. >>> >>> >>> > >>> > And before you say or think that we are all volunteers here, I a= m a >>> > volunteer also. I have spent close to 3 weeks on this code and i= t is >>> > very close to working. The biggest difference between working co= de in >>> > the mcentral.de tree and the patch I was >>> working on is the firmware that >>> > is used. >>> >>> ... and your efforts are valuable. >>> >>> Markus (mcentral.de ) is paid to work on Linux, >>> just to be clear. >>> >>> Your last message on that thread said: "xc2028 2-0061: xc2028/3028 >>> firmware name not set!" >>> >>> You could of asked a second time before taking the opportunity to v= ent, >>> and taking the community to task. >>> >>> Showing patience and perseverance is what most other newcomers >>> demonstrate. >>> >>> >>> > >>> > Finally you might consider that if few developers are prepared to >>> work >>> > on the v4l-dvb tree, then much of the fun will disappear because >>> those >>> > few will have to do everything. >>> >>> Whether we have 3 people or 30, it's never enough. >>> >>> In my experience, people who join the list then vent all over it are >>> rarely around long enough to make a difference. They often think th= ey >>> know more about the community than the community itself. >>> >>> On the other hand, the people who join and ask well thought out >>> questions, describe their failures and working assumptions, then >>> demonstrate a willingness to learn attract a mentor very quickly. >>> >>> ... just my opinion of course :) >>> >>> If you want to make progress with the leadtek card then another loo= k at >>> the feedback I gave you, then approach the group again with a more >>> insightful email. >>> >>> Maybe someone will help you then. >>> >>> - Steve >>> >>> >>> I would like to respond to this because I have been sending messages to >>> the list asking for help, but after a couple initial suggestions, I have >>> been completely ignored. I need to work with the cx23885 drivers with >>> analog support that Steve wrote, because they are the only ones around, >>> but how am I supposed to get them to work if the person who wrote them >>> will not help me. I even reported progress, but I was still ignored. >>> In fact, I saw other people get help with questions that were as silly >>> as mine, but for some reason I cannot get any help from Steve or anyone >>> else on the list. I have said before that I am willing to do some of >>> the work, but there is a steep learning curve. >>> >>> If I have done something against the rules or to deserve this treatment, >>> I would appreciate someone letting me know instead of just ignoring me. >>> Where else can I go for help? >>> >>> If anyone has any suggestions about what I can do, please see my latest >>> posts to the list about analog support for cx23885 cards. Thank you. >>> >>> --Tim >> Tim, >> >> Just to be clear, they're not my patches I just offered to merge them. :) >> >> The people who can help are busy working on other projects, that's just >> the way Linux development works. I tend to work on Hauppauge hardware >> projects first then anything else if I have time. >> >> Too many people come to the list and have their problems solved and give >> nothing in return. This is bad. They walk away feeling pretty happy but >> they don't stop behind to help 2 other people. If everyone I helped >> stopped to help 2 other people then the group would be a better place. >> Likewise for all of the other developers in this group. >> >> In the end, people stop helping each other because it's a non-stop tide >> of help requests, for little in return. >> >> I'm not suggesting that you do that, I'm suggest that's why the group is >> the way it is. >> >> Stick around, when people have enough time you'll get some attention. >> >> - Steve >> >> _______________________________________________ >> linux-dvb mailing list >> linux-dvb@linuxtv.org >> http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-dvb >> > = > I think the main problem is not having separate lists for development > and help/support. The development efforts suffer a lot from this. I > did experience that silence myself when working on adding support for > my device; at first, the linuxtv community seemed to ignore me, but > after a lot of patience and insistence, I got positive replays from Good, so you stuck around and started to reap the benefits. I'm glad, = and the community is now better for that. Thank you! :) A common mistake people make is that they join the list, very = enthusiastic, and receive very little feedback from the long time = developers, so they get a little grumpy. "Linux will fail, I'm trying to = help but nobody is helping me.... etc" If new developers show patience, keep nagging the list, demonstrate that = they're here to help in various different ways, mentors appear and help = is given. Help is not an automatic right, it's a gift given from other users. Of course, this is only my opinion. - Steve _______________________________________________ linux-dvb mailing list linux-dvb@linuxtv.org http://www.linuxtv.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/linux-dvb