[linux-dvb] HD over satellite? (h.264)

[linux-dvb] HD over satellite? (h.264)

[Florin Andrei]

I am currently receiving SD programs, MPEG2 encoded, with a small 
receiver, and I plan to use a DVB-S card pretty soon with my MythTV box.

But I noticed that the european TV network that I watch over satellite 
is now doing experiments with HD. They are testing HD broadcast over 
satellite, encoded with h.264. They call it DVB-S HD.

Question: Are you aware of any receiver that can be used with Linux to 
capture DVB-S HD?

-- 
Florin Andrei

http://florin.myip.org/

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Re: [linux-dvb] HD over satellite? (h.264)

[Christophe Thommeret]

Le jeudi 6 novembre 2008 01:14:42 Florin Andrei, vous avez écrit :
> I am currently receiving SD programs, MPEG2 encoded, with a small
> receiver, and I plan to use a DVB-S card pretty soon with my MythTV box.
>
> But I noticed that the european TV network that I watch over satellite
> is now doing experiments with HD. They are testing HD broadcast over
> satellite, encoded with h.264. They call it DVB-S HD.
>
> Question: Are you aware of any receiver that can be used with Linux to
> capture DVB-S HD?

If it's DVB-S, any DVB-S device will.
If it's DVB-S2, you need a DVB-S2 device.

Playback of such channels requires some strong multicore cpu, coupled with 
latest ffmpeg svn.

-- 
Christophe Thommeret


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Re: [linux-dvb] HD over satellite? (h.264)

[Florin Andrei]

Christophe Thommeret wrote:
> Le jeudi 6 novembre 2008 01:14:42 Florin Andrei, vous avez écrit :
>> But I noticed that the european TV network that I watch over satellite
>> is now doing experiments with HD. They are testing HD broadcast over
>> satellite, encoded with h.264. They call it DVB-S HD.
>>
>> Question: Are you aware of any receiver that can be used with Linux to
>> capture DVB-S HD?
> 
> If it's DVB-S, any DVB-S device will.
> If it's DVB-S2, you need a DVB-S2 device.

So HD can be transmitted over DVB-S as well, it does not automatically 
imply DVB-S2. OK, that's something I didn't know.

A quick search on the Eutelsat website revealed that they transmit using 
DVB-S. So a DVB-S card like the Hauppauge WinTV-NOVA-S-Plus which I plan 
to purchase should be able to receive it, is that right?

(I can't receive Eutelsat from my area, but if they start broadcasting 
their HD channels on Galaxy 25, the way they do already with SD, then 
I'll be able to receive them.)

> Playback of such channels requires some strong multicore cpu, coupled with 
> latest ffmpeg svn.

Right. OTOH, I expect the satellite stuff to be transmitted at a pretty 
low bitrate, also perhaps with the more complex encoding features turned 
off. Based on the experiments that I did, h.264's playability depends a 
lot on the bitrate and on the features that were turned on in the encoder.

-- 
Florin Andrei

http://florin.myip.org/

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Re: [linux-dvb] HD over satellite? (h.264)

[hermann pitton]

Hi,

Am Mittwoch, den 05.11.2008, 17:33 -0800 schrieb Florin Andrei:
> Christophe Thommeret wrote:
> > Le jeudi 6 novembre 2008 01:14:42 Florin Andrei, vous avez écrit :
> >> But I noticed that the european TV network that I watch over satellite
> >> is now doing experiments with HD. They are testing HD broadcast over
> >> satellite, encoded with h.264. They call it DVB-S HD.
> >>
> >> Question: Are you aware of any receiver that can be used with Linux to
> >> capture DVB-S HD?
> > 
> > If it's DVB-S, any DVB-S device will.
> > If it's DVB-S2, you need a DVB-S2 device.
> 
> So HD can be transmitted over DVB-S as well, it does not automatically 
> imply DVB-S2. OK, that's something I didn't know.

that is true.

But people should know, as far I can say, that future HD broadcasts will
be DVB-S2 and to buy now something not capable of it will be, well,
Lehman and Iceland BS*, and nobody will compensate you. It is already
trash.

And as always, the longer you wait, the cheaper you get it.

Cheers,
Hermann





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Re: [linux-dvb] HD over satellite? (h.264)

[BOUWSMA Barry]

Mojn,

You have given no clue that I can see without research in your
message as to which particular services are of interest to you,
and a hint to your location, so I will have to generalise about
things here...

On Wed, 5 Nov 2008, Florin Andrei wrote:

> A quick search on the Eutelsat website revealed that they transmit using =
> DVB-S. So a DVB-S card like the Hauppauge WinTV-NOVA-S-Plus which I plan =
> to purchase should be able to receive it, is that right?
> 
> (I can't receive Eutelsat from my area, but if they start broadcasting =
> their HD channels on Galaxy 25, the way they do already with SD, then =
> I'll be able to receive them.)

In most cases I've seen, when DVB-S is used to trasmit H.264
HDTV, it's in order to share a transponder between conventional
MPEG-2 broadcasts.  Usually, when a transponder gets converted
to HDTV only, it uses DVB-S2.

I would not rely on a particular transponder remaining DVB-S
if you have interest in any HDTV -- particularly if you are
planning an initial investment in a card.  I would suggest
getting a DVB-S2 card, capable of DVB-S, and avoiding unpleasant
surprises later, future-proofing yourself for some time.


As a concrete example of what I mean, BBC-HD presently shares
a transponder with two SD BBC services which must be received
by existing non-S2-able Sky and FTA receivers.  The german
EinsFestival HD showcases shared a transponder with existing
SD services.  The present arte-HD and coming ARD and ZDF HD
services have their dedicated transponder, no SD services,
and use -S2.  The Hotbird Hungarian and Swiss HD services
share space with SD and use DVB-S.

There do exist transponders which use the more efficient
DVB-S2 yet carry a payload of MPEG-2 services, just as there
are H.264 services on DVB-S.  One does not require the other.
Generally, HD services do not need to be concerned with
consumer equipment that cannot receive DVB-S2, and are able
to use that without concern.  While nearly all SD-only
consumer equipment has no DVB-S2 ability and is stuck with
DVB-S2.



> Right. OTOH, I expect the satellite stuff to be transmitted at a pretty =
> low bitrate, also perhaps with the more complex encoding features turned =

The services which use lower bitrates (for HD, less than,
say, 10Mbit/sec where the broadcasts I know of start), if
what I see on SD is a guide, are likely to be budget-tight
commercial broadcasts or niche programming that is highly
unlikely to be contemplating HD, adverts that push to the
limits the frequency of keyframes or entropy of the content
in order to trickle ``moving'' pictures on a budget.  Or
pr0n that looks to be modelled by airbrushed Lego blocks.

Argh, speaking of which, the HD-pr0n that I wanted to see
bitrate (technical meaning thereof) has disappeared, so I
have no clue what they used while it existed, purely for
research purposes, you know...

If you wanted to name the service, we could tell you what
bitrate is used (and many of the auto-scanning DX websites
list this as well, if you want to look yourself)...  Else
my examples of well-funded quality-concerned Public Service
Broadcasters, or of subscriber-financed subscription
packages, might be inapplicable -- I pay attention to both
technical and content quality where interested, and have
no idea what you may have to suffer where you are.


thanks
barry bouwsma

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Re: [linux-dvb] HD over satellite? (h.264)

[Tony Houghton]

On Thu, 06 Nov 2008 03:38:07 +0100
hermann pitton <hermann-pitton@arcor.de> wrote:

> But people should know, as far I can say, that future HD broadcasts will
> be DVB-S2 and to buy now something not capable of it will be, well,
> Lehman and Iceland BS*, and nobody will compensate you. It is already
> trash.

OTOH you can get a used DVB-S card now for 20ukp and by the time you
really need DVB-S2 you should be able to get a better card that will be
working with Linux by then (eg PCI-e, multiple tuners) or the price of
single tuner PCI DVB-S2 cards may have dropped by as much as 20ukp.

-- 
TH * http://www.realh.co.uk

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Re: [linux-dvb] HD over satellite? (h.264)

[Florin Andrei]

BOUWSMA Barry wrote:
> 
> You have given no clue that I can see without research in your
> message as to which particular services are of interest to you,
> and a hint to your location, so I will have to generalise about
> things here...

The TVRHD channel on Eutelsat W2.

W2 is under horizon in my area (California) but the same network 
currently has the TVRi channel on Galaxy 25, which can be received 
easily by me. I assume, once their trial period is over, they will put 
the HD channel on Galaxy 25 or other satellites.

-- 
Florin Andrei

http://florin.myip.org/

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Re: [linux-dvb] HD over satellite? (h.264)

[BOUWSMA Barry]

On Mon, 10 Nov 2008, Florin Andrei wrote:

> The TVRHD channel on Eutelsat W2.

Ah, thank you.  TV Romania HD, uplinked in a package of domestic
TV services, and which HD service is apparently is sent encrypted.


> W2 is under horizon in my area (California) but the same network 
> currently has the TVRi channel on Galaxy 25, which can be received 

However, TVRi is the International broadcasting service of
TVRomania, and is available on many satellites, uplinked
by the likes of Globecast as part of a package of varied
services, and which has no direct connection to the domestic
broadcasts directed at Romania.


> easily by me. I assume, once their trial period is over, they will put 
> the HD channel on Galaxy 25 or other satellites.

I would not assume this.  In fact, I expect it will still
be some years before the international services of any or
many countries appear in HD worldwide.  I am not aware of
any at present (multinational commercial broadcasters are
not included).

In fact, I know of only a few international broadcasters
who have, in the last months, actually started to broadcast
in 16:9 widescreen, as opposed to merely producing some 16:9
and sending within 4:3 or cropped 14:9 in 4:3...

(As I write this, TVRi is sending a 4:3 picture containing
16:9 material, with digital graphic logo and subtitles outside
the 16:9 frame, but I haven't aimed a dish to 16E to see how the
domestic programmes look, nor have I watched the international
service regularly)


As far as whether you should invest today in DVB-S2 hardware,
I would not make a decision in your location on TVRi maybe
appearing in HD in some years, but rather, whether there
are any other S2 broadcasts you can receive and wish to
view today or soon.

A quick look at a Galaxy 25 frequency list showed no DVB-S2
transponders (but maybe I searched wrong), and I'm not
familiar with the available range of satellites you can
see halfway around the world from me and their technical
details, so I have no clue how widespread DVB-S2 is or
will be, or the FTA/encrypted situation.


hope that's useful...
barry bouwsma

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[linux-dvb] hybrid with analog working (pal secam)

[djamil]

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Hello 

Is there a known hybrid express card that does analog and digital under
linux ?

I d like to use to composite svideo in with it , and the tuners are cool
too .

In Pal Secam, because I am in france 


Best regards

 

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Re: [linux-dvb] HD over satellite? (h.264)

[Florin Andrei]

Thank you for the detailed analysis of the situation.

Looks like I'll get a Hauppauge Nova-S-Plus for the moment and just use 
it to receive TVRi with the MythTV system I'm building - there's nothing 
else I'm watching via satellite and don't really plan to expand the 
number of channels I'm viewing. I don't watch live TV at all, just put a 
few things on MythTV to watch whenever.

If the Nova-S-Plus can also receive some of the radio stations on Galaxy 
25, then so much better. If not, no big deal.

If and when HD stuff that's interesting to me becomes available, I'll 
probably look at a DVB-S2 card. Until then, the Linux and MythTV support 
for S2 will no doubt improve.

-- 
Florin Andrei

http://florin.myip.org/

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Re: [linux-dvb] HD over satellite? (h.264)

[BOUWSMA Barry]

On Tue, 11 Nov 2008, Florin Andrei wrote:

> If the Nova-S-Plus can also receive some of the radio stations on Galaxy 
> 25, then so much better. If not, no big deal.

There are a few encrypted radios there, as well as a pay-radio
package.

Any free radios that you can receive with your present set-top 
receiver, can also be received with any DVB-S card.  As
my constant listening to time-shifted programming proves...
Cursed sat radio.  Were it not for that, I might be doing
something completely different and useful with my life
instead.


Looks as if the majority of programming on this bird is
comparable to what can be seen from europe on the Hotbirds
satellites -- minus the italian platform and some european
broadcasters.  No doubt with compression/quality levels
that match -- just in case any readers in europe have any
interest in the content carried.


I don't know how the penetration of FTA DVB-S boxes in
the target markets of this satellite compares with that
in parts of Europe -- the satellite carriers can profit
from the increased bitrate they would see with DVB-S2
while still carrying highly-compressed SD MPEG2, or more
likely they could practically triple the number of
programmes per transponder by combining DVB-S2 and H.264,
and my finger is far removed from the pulse of what any
broadcasters, carriers, or playout centres might plan
as a migration to more efficient standards in your part
of the world.  This may be sooner if there is not a large
installed base of customer-owned equipment to be obsoleted.


Good luck with your card...

barry bouwsma

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