Windows vs Linux DVR System?

Windows vs Linux DVR System?

[marilynnpg]

I am looking into building my own DVR system on my PC running either Windows Vista or XP and one of the applications listed below.  That said, before I proceeded I wanted to check to see if there was a Linux application which will allowed me to use multiple Logitec QuickCam Pro cameras (approx 8 cameras).  In addition, I would be grateful if some could point out the advantages of using a Linux based solution over one of the Windows based solutions listed below. 

1) Capturix VideoSpy beta 6 
---------------------------------- 
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,475790,00.asp 
http://www.capturix.com/default.asp?product=cvs 
 
 
2) Gotcha! 3.6 
------------------ 
www.gotchanow.com 
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,475791,00.asp 
 
 
3) WebCam Watchdog 2.2 
-------------------------------- 
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,475793,00.asp 
www.webcam123.com 
 
 
4) Watcher and RemoteView 
----------------------------------- 
www.digi-watcher.com 
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,475792,00.asp 


5) Cam Wizard
------------------
http://www.ledset.com/camwiz/index.htm

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Re: Windows vs Linux DVR System?

[Yan Seiner]

On Wed, January 7, 2009 8:47 am, marilynnpg@tx.rr.com wrote:
> I am looking into building my own DVR system on my PC running either
> Windows Vista or XP and one of the applications listed below.  That said,
> before I proceeded I wanted to check to see if there was a Linux
> application which will allowed me to use multiple Logitec QuickCam Pro
> cameras (approx 8 cameras).  In addition, I would be grateful if some
> could point out the advantages of using a Linux based solution over one of
> the Windows based solutions listed below.

That many USB cameras will need some hefty CPU.  I've not had much luck
with webcams.  You might want to consider IP cams; you can find them for
not much more than webcams.  Or go with plain old wired cameras and a
capture board.

As for linux v. windows, I've tried to work with the windows based DVR
systems, and pretty much without exception they're a PITA.   (OK, I like
linux but still....)  Mostly the apps are clunky, complicated, very
difficult to set up properly, and are always missing some key (to me)
feature.

With linux, you set up your cameras and make sure they work.  It doesn't
matter if they're webcams, IPcams, or capture boards.

Then install and configure motion, one thread per camera.

If you want movies, you can either set up motion to do that or you can use
ffmpeg and generate flash movies directly.

And then use a browser.

See my website - http://www.seiner.com - and look at the snakecam and
lizardcam.  They're pretty dull as I don't have the cameras set up
correctly ATM but it uses the above setup.  motion captures the motion,
ffmpeg rotates each frame to portrait from landscape, generates the movie
using the last 1440 frames, and some more scripts post it on the website,
with updates every hour.

--Yan

>
> 1) Capturix VideoSpy beta 6
> ----------------------------------
> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,475790,00.asp
> http://www.capturix.com/default.asp?product=cvs
>
>
> 2) Gotcha! 3.6
> ------------------
> www.gotchanow.com
> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,475791,00.asp
>
>
> 3) WebCam Watchdog 2.2
> --------------------------------
> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,475793,00.asp
> www.webcam123.com
>
>
> 4) Watcher and RemoteView
> -----------------------------------
> www.digi-watcher.com
> http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,475792,00.asp
>
>
> 5) Cam Wizard
> ------------------
> http://www.ledset.com/camwiz/index.htm
>
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  (_)\(_)        ,>/'_        o__
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       Personal Trainer      (_)\(_)    ,>/'_        o__
             Professional Engineer     (_)\(_)       ,>/'_
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Re: Windows vs Linux DVR System?

[Jackson Yee]

I second Yan's suggestion for analog cameras and a capture board if
you're looking for consistent, quality pictures. Eight USB webcams are
possible if you have separate USB hub chips and a good motherboard,
but you're really stretching the hardware thin once you get past four.
IP cameras are great if you have lots of money to burn, but start
struggling in numbers above eight even on gigabit ethernet due to
bandwidth contention and are not anywhere close to analog systems in
terms of price (The h264 cameras do a decent job, but you can setup an
entire analog system for the price of one).

I've honestly hated most of the surveillance solutions that I've ran
across with Windows, although I have been impressed with Media Center.
The Linux ones are in their infancy as far as enterprise features are
concerned, but what they do already, they do well, and you can always
hack together a quick feature when you need it. Good luck trying to
change any of the Windows solutions to fit your needs.

I suggest getting some good quality analog cameras along with a Linux
card from bluecherry.net, then installing either Zoneminder or motion
on a good energy-efficient dual-core machine (the 45W Athlon X2s are
my favorite at the moment). You'll be saving yourself a good bit of
money, and you can upgrade in five years when IP cameras are priced
lower.

Regards,
Jackson Yee
The Possum Company
540-818-4079
me@gotpossum.com

On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 11:56 AM, Yan Seiner <yan@seiner.com> wrote:
> That many USB cameras will need some hefty CPU.  I've not had much luck
> with webcams.  You might want to consider IP cams; you can find them for
> not much more than webcams.  Or go with plain old wired cameras and a
> capture board.
>
> As for linux v. windows, I've tried to work with the windows based DVR
> systems, and pretty much without exception they're a PITA.   (OK, I like
> linux but still....)  Mostly the apps are clunky, complicated, very
> difficult to set up properly, and are always missing some key (to me)
> feature.
>
> With linux, you set up your cameras and make sure they work.  It doesn't
> matter if they're webcams, IPcams, or capture boards.
>
> Then install and configure motion, one thread per camera.
>
> If you want movies, you can either set up motion to do that or you can use
> ffmpeg and generate flash movies directly.
>
> And then use a browser.
>
> See my website - http://www.seiner.com - and look at the snakecam and
> lizardcam.  They're pretty dull as I don't have the cameras set up
> correctly ATM but it uses the above setup.  motion captures the motion,
> ffmpeg rotates each frame to portrait from landscape, generates the movie
> using the last 1440 frames, and some more scripts post it on the website,
> with updates every hour.
>
> --Yan

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Re: Windows vs Linux DVR System?

[Yan Seiner]

On Wed, January 7, 2009 9:19 am, Jackson Yee wrote:
> I second Yan's suggestion for analog cameras and a capture board if
> you're looking for consistent, quality pictures. Eight USB webcams are
> possible if you have separate USB hub chips and a good motherboard,
> but you're really stretching the hardware thin once you get past four.

Webcams are built for indoor light levels; they wash out in daylight and
have poor low-light performance.  They're limited to 14' cable runs.  They
have poor frame rates at higher (640x480) resolutions - as low as 3 fps. 
Their one advantage is that some of them can be easily modified for IR and
are very sensitive so that even a few 20mw LEDs can provide good
performance.

> IP cameras are great if you have lots of money to burn, but start
> struggling in numbers above eight even on gigabit ethernet due to
> bandwidth contention and are not anywhere close to analog systems in
> terms of price (The h264 cameras do a decent job, but you can setup an
> entire analog system for the price of one).

All too true.  I've been cherry-picking my IPcams and I've been able to
find them for $60-70 but they're few and far between and the choices are
limited.  I get around the bandwith issue by having motion poll them but
that limits me to around 5 fps.  With luck and a good camera I get 12 fps
@ 640x480 but not often.

There's nothing like a good hardware capture board and analog cameras. 
You get much better choices, interchangeable lenses, good light
sensitivity, and so on.

--Yan

-- 
  o__
  ,>/'_          o__
  (_)\(_)        ,>/'_        o__
Yan Seiner      (_)\(_)       ,>/'_     o__
       Personal Trainer      (_)\(_)    ,>/'_        o__
             Professional Engineer     (_)\(_)       ,>/'_
Who says engineers have to be pencil necked geeks?  (_)\(_)

You are an adult when you realize that everyone's an idiot sometimes. You
are wise when you include yourself.


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Re: Windows vs Linux DVR System?

[marilynnpg]

My problem is that I have stumbled on to the Logitech Quickcam Pro webcam (for the laptop) and I was so impressed with the picture quality (even in low light conditions ) that I packed up my 16 camera DVR which came with eight cameras and returned it to the store.  After looking at the quality image produced by that Logitech camera I was almost tempted to throw my hand held digital video camera in the trash.  That said, due to the excellent image quality,  I wanted to design a DVR security solution around the Logitech Quickcam Pro (for the laptop ) cameras.  Is there an IP camera or an analog camera which rivals the  Logitech Quickcam Pro webcam (for the laptop) in terms of image quality that I can purchase for under $100.00US?

---- Yan Seiner <yan@seiner.com> wrote: 
> 
> On Wed, January 7, 2009 9:19 am, Jackson Yee wrote:
> > I second Yan's suggestion for analog cameras and a capture board if
> > you're looking for consistent, quality pictures. Eight USB webcams are
> > possible if you have separate USB hub chips and a good motherboard,
> > but you're really stretching the hardware thin once you get past four.
> 
> Webcams are built for indoor light levels; they wash out in daylight and
> have poor low-light performance.  They're limited to 14' cable runs.  They
> have poor frame rates at higher (640x480) resolutions - as low as 3 fps. 
> Their one advantage is that some of them can be easily modified for IR and
> are very sensitive so that even a few 20mw LEDs can provide good
> performance.
> 
> > IP cameras are great if you have lots of money to burn, but start
> > struggling in numbers above eight even on gigabit ethernet due to
> > bandwidth contention and are not anywhere close to analog systems in
> > terms of price (The h264 cameras do a decent job, but you can setup an
> > entire analog system for the price of one).
> 
> All too true.  I've been cherry-picking my IPcams and I've been able to
> find them for $60-70 but they're few and far between and the choices are
> limited.  I get around the bandwith issue by having motion poll them but
> that limits me to around 5 fps.  With luck and a good camera I get 12 fps
> @ 640x480 but not often.
> 
> There's nothing like a good hardware capture board and analog cameras. 
> You get much better choices, interchangeable lenses, good light
> sensitivity, and so on.
> 
> --Yan
> 
> -- 
>   o__
>   ,>/'_          o__
>   (_)\(_)        ,>/'_        o__
> Yan Seiner      (_)\(_)       ,>/'_     o__
>        Personal Trainer      (_)\(_)    ,>/'_        o__
>              Professional Engineer     (_)\(_)       ,>/'_
> Who says engineers have to be pencil necked geeks?  (_)\(_)
> 
> You are an adult when you realize that everyone's an idiot sometimes. You
> are wise when you include yourself.
> 
> 
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Re: Windows vs Linux DVR System?

[marilynnpg]

You can purchase USB cables up to 80 ft long with no degradation in picture 
quality.  I personally have ordered a 36ft cable and tested the product listed 
on this website today http://www.usbgear.com/USB-Extenders.html .  

---- marilynnpg@tx.rr.com wrote: 
> My problem is that I have stumbled on to the Logitech Quickcam Pro webcam (for the laptop) and I was so impressed with the picture quality (even in low light conditions ) that I packed up my 16 camera DVR which came with eight cameras and returned it to the store.  After looking at the quality image produced by that Logitech camera I was almost tempted to throw my hand held digital video camera in the trash.  That said, due to the excellent image quality,  I wanted to design a DVR security solution around the Logitech Quickcam Pro (for the laptop ) cameras.  Is there an IP camera or an analog camera which rivals the  Logitech Quickcam Pro webcam (for the laptop) in terms of image quality that I can purchase for under $100.00US?
> 
> ---- Yan Seiner <yan@seiner.com> wrote: 
> > 
> > On Wed, January 7, 2009 9:19 am, Jackson Yee wrote:
> > > I second Yan's suggestion for analog cameras and a capture board if
> > > you're looking for consistent, quality pictures. Eight USB webcams are
> > > possible if you have separate USB hub chips and a good motherboard,
> > > but you're really stretching the hardware thin once you get past four.
> > 
> > Webcams are built for indoor light levels; they wash out in daylight and
> > have poor low-light performance.  They're limited to 14' cable runs.  They
> > have poor frame rates at higher (640x480) resolutions - as low as 3 fps. 
> > Their one advantage is that some of them can be easily modified for IR and
> > are very sensitive so that even a few 20mw LEDs can provide good
> > performance.
> > 
> > > IP cameras are great if you have lots of money to burn, but start
> > > struggling in numbers above eight even on gigabit ethernet due to
> > > bandwidth contention and are not anywhere close to analog systems in
> > > terms of price (The h264 cameras do a decent job, but you can setup an
> > > entire analog system for the price of one).
> > 
> > All too true.  I've been cherry-picking my IPcams and I've been able to
> > find them for $60-70 but they're few and far between and the choices are
> > limited.  I get around the bandwith issue by having motion poll them but
> > that limits me to around 5 fps.  With luck and a good camera I get 12 fps
> > @ 640x480 but not often.
> > 
> > There's nothing like a good hardware capture board and analog cameras. 
> > You get much better choices, interchangeable lenses, good light
> > sensitivity, and so on.
> > 
> > --Yan
> > 
> > -- 
> >   o__
> >   ,>/'_          o__
> >   (_)\(_)        ,>/'_        o__
> > Yan Seiner      (_)\(_)       ,>/'_     o__
> >        Personal Trainer      (_)\(_)    ,>/'_        o__
> >              Professional Engineer     (_)\(_)       ,>/'_
> > Who says engineers have to be pencil necked geeks?  (_)\(_)
> > 
> > You are an adult when you realize that everyone's an idiot sometimes. You
> > are wise when you include yourself.
> > 
> > 
> > --
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> > https://www.redhat.com/mailman/listinfo/video4linux-list
> 
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Re: Windows vs Linux DVR System?

[Devin Heitmueller]

On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 2:18 PM,  <marilynnpg@tx.rr.com> wrote:
> You can purchase USB cables up to 80 ft long with no degradation in picture
> quality.  I personally have ordered a 36ft cable and tested the product listed
> on this website today http://www.usbgear.com/USB-Extenders.html .

Note:  If these cables/amplifiers do not have any external power
source, then this could cause problems for some devices that run right
at the 500ma maximum.  The addition of the amplifier logic will exceed
the maximum power capacity of the USB port.

Devin

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Re: Windows vs Linux DVR System?

[marilynnpg]

Devin, All that you are saying may be true.  All that I can say is that when I combine the USB 36ft cable with my Logitech QuickCam Pro at 30 frames/ second with a 960 by 720 pixels frame size, it worked flawlessly.

---- Devin Heitmueller <devin.heitmueller@gmail.com> wrote: 
> On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 2:18 PM,  <marilynnpg@tx.rr.com> wrote:
> > You can purchase USB cables up to 80 ft long with no degradation in picture
> > quality.  I personally have ordered a 36ft cable and tested the product listed
> > on this website today http://www.usbgear.com/USB-Extenders.html .
> 
> Note:  If these cables/amplifiers do not have any external power
> source, then this could cause problems for some devices that run right
> at the 500ma maximum.  The addition of the amplifier logic will exceed
> the maximum power capacity of the USB port.
> 
> Devin
> 
> -- 
> Devin J. Heitmueller
> http://www.devinheitmueller.com
> AIM: devinheitmueller

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Re: Windows vs Linux DVR System?

[Devin Heitmueller]

On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 3:35 PM,  <marilynnpg@tx.rr.com> wrote:
> Devin, All that you are saying may be true.  All that I can say is that when I combine the USB 36ft cable with my Logitech QuickCam Pro at 30 frames/ second with a 960 by 720 pixels frame size, it worked flawlessly.

Sure, for simple CCD analog capture devices, I can see that working.

For any device with a tuner, analog decoder, or ATSC/DVB demodulator,
you're already pretty much at 500ma.  In fact, using an inline meter,
I have seen devices exceed 500ma and it results in some fun debugging
for some environments depending on how the USB host handles exceeding
the maximum power threshold.

Cheers,

Devin

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Re: Windows vs Linux DVR System?

[Devin Heitmueller]

On Wed, Jan 7, 2009 at 3:48 PM, Devin Heitmueller
 > For any device with a tuner, analog decoder, or ATSC/DVB demodulator,
> you're already pretty much at 500ma.  In fact, using an inline meter,
> I have seen devices exceed 500ma and it results in some fun debugging
> for some environments depending on how the USB host handles exceeding
> the maximum power threshold.

Correction, I meant to say "For many devices", since there are
certainly ones out there that don't hit 500ma during capture even
though they have a tuner or demod.

Devin

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Re: Windows vs Linux DVR System?

[Ian Pickworth]

Yan Seiner wrote:
> See my website - http://www.seiner.com - and look at the snakecam and
> lizardcam. 

That lizard must be on speed! Either that or its feeding time?

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Re: Windows vs Linux DVR System?

[Yan Seiner]

On Wed, January 7, 2009 10:32 am, Ian Pickworth wrote:
> Yan Seiner wrote:
>> See my website - http://www.seiner.com - and look at the snakecam and
>> lizardcam.
>
> That lizard must be on speed! Either that or its feeding time?

Heh.  Ther's a female in another tank - the male does the head bobbing and
the female does the arm waving.  Pretty cute mating ritual.  I'm waiting
on my daugther to set up the female tank properly and then we'll add the
girl-lizard cam.  Whee!

The camera shoots at about 7 fps and the video is shown at 30 fps; motion
drops any frames that don't have motion so the time compression is pretty
severe.  The whole video covers about 2-3 days so the lizard isn't *that*
active.  (by comparison, the snake cam covers 2 months; snakes spend most
of their time not moving.....)

--Yan

-- 
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             Professional Engineer     (_)\(_)       ,>/'_
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