[linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[BOUWSMA Barry]

Moin moin,

I've just learned that effective 24.Feb, there will be a change
made to the channel assignment in the area of Hamburg.

This is due to the fact that one existing multiplex is found
within the VHF band, which is in the process of being cleared
of DVB-T services, moving them to assigned UHF channels, in
order to free the VHF band for radio services (DAB/DAB+ and
family).

Several other areas, such as Bayern, currently make use of
VHF frequencies at several transmitter sites.  I am not yet
aware of what plans exist to change these frequencies...

The following diff will add the newly assigned frequency,
and remove the old one, with an effective date of 24.Feb.

The particular modulation parameters are not confirmed, so
I've had to guess based on existing values used elsewhere
in the NDR coverage area as well as what generally is used
throughout germany.

In particular, for the public service broadcasters'
multiplexes, they generally seem to use a FEC of 3/4 in
the 7MHz VHF band, but the more rugged 2/3 in 8MHz UHF
channel space to compensate for the poorer propagation
while keeping comparable bitrate available.

Ideally, this would be confirmed after the switch, or
in some technical document which I haven't searched out.


--- /lost+found/CVSUP/SRC/HG-src/dvb-apps/util/scan/dvb-t/de-Hamburg	2008-08-23 10:18:28.000000000 +0200
+++ /tmp/de-Hamburg	2009-01-23 17:42:54.029209331 +0100
@@ -1,6 +1,5 @@
-# DVB-T Hamburg
+# DVB-T Hamburg (ab 24.02.2009 CH09->CH54)
 # T freq bw fec_hi fec_lo mod transmission-mode guard-interval hierarchy
-T 205500000 7MHz 3/4 NONE QAM16 8k 1/8 NONE     # CH09: NDR, WDR, MDR, Bayrisches Fernsehen
 T 490000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE     # CH23: ZDF, Info/3sat, Doku/KiKa
 T 498000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE
 T 514000000 8MHz 3/4 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE     #ARD, MDR S-Anhalt, NDR MV, NDR SH, rbb Berlin
@@ -10,6 +9,7 @@
 T 602000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE
 T 626000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE     # CH40: RTL Television, RTL2, Super RTL, VOX
 T 674000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE     # CH53: HH1, Eurosport, Terra Nova, Neun Live
+T 682000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE     # CH54: NDR, WDR, MDR, Bayrisches Fernsehen
 T 738000000 8MHz 3/4 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE     #ZDF, Doku/KiKa, Info/3sat
 T 754000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE     # CH56: NDR, MDR, WDR, hr
 T 786000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE


Note that I am using the existing file, which to my eyes may
contain errors -- it certainly includes more than just the
frequencies used by transmitters in Hamburg, and the values
I have on my receiver are more than a year old so I haven't
compared against that.

However, I'm concerned by the duplication of ZDF, particularly
with a different FEC.  I can confirm from the ZDF teletext info
that channel 23 is in use at two transmitter sites, but I see
nowhere in the general vicinity of HH where channel 54 is in
use by ZDFmobil from that source.

Similarly the appearance of ARD and NDR duplicates at channel
26 with similar FEC raises my eyebrows.  If anything this would
be spillage from, say, S-H.  And channels such as TerraNova
are long since history, but the multiplex technical parameters
are probably unchanged.

No matter...

thanks,
barry bouwsma

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Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[Tobias Stöber]

Moin, moin (as people say in Northern Germany) :)

BOUWSMA Barry schrieb:
> I've just learned that effective 24.Feb, there will be a change
> made to the channel assignment in the area of Hamburg.
> 
> This is due to the fact that one existing multiplex is found
> within the VHF band, which is in the process of being cleared
> of DVB-T services, moving them to assigned UHF channels, in
> order to free the VHF band for radio services (DAB/DAB+ and
> family).
> 
> Several other areas, such as Bayern, currently make use of
> VHF frequencies at several transmitter sites.  I am not yet
> aware of what plans exist to change these frequencies...

As for certain area in Saxony-Anhalt, Saxony and Thuringia there ahve 
never been VHF channels in use. Tis applies normally only to area from 
the first stage of the German DVB-T project.

Lower Saxony has recently (November 2008) cleared several channels, like 
in my area (Brunswick), where there had been an ARD Mux on Ch 8. Now  it 
  is on Ch 47.

> The following diff will add the newly assigned frequency,
> and remove the old one, with an effective date of 24.Feb.
> 
> The particular modulation parameters are not confirmed, so
> I've had to guess based on existing values used elsewhere
> in the NDR coverage area as well as what generally is used
> throughout germany.

Information for the whole NDR area will normally be found at 
http://www.dvb-t-nord.de.

There is a complete listing including parameters from "in area" and also 
"out of area" (but with reception in the area) transmitters at

http://www.ueberallfernsehen.de/data/senderliste_25_11_2008.pdf

So have a look ;)

Best regards, Tobias

Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[Tobias Stöber]

Well, just have to send this message again, this time to the right & 
correct mailing list linux-dvb@linuxtv.org. (Who by the way had the 
insane idea, to set a reply-to address to another mailing list 
(linux-media@vger.kernel.org)? I've never seen such behavior in other 
lists. It's a damn useless and confusing thing.)

Moin, moin (as people say in Northern Germany) :)

BOUWSMA Barry schrieb:
> I've just learned that effective 24.Feb, there will be a change
> made to the channel assignment in the area of Hamburg.
> 
> This is due to the fact that one existing multiplex is found
> within the VHF band, which is in the process of being cleared
> of DVB-T services, moving them to assigned UHF channels, in
> order to free the VHF band for radio services (DAB/DAB+ and
> family).
> 
> Several other areas, such as Bayern, currently make use of
> VHF frequencies at several transmitter sites.  I am not yet
> aware of what plans exist to change these frequencies...

As for certain area in Saxony-Anhalt, Saxony and Thuringia there ahve
never been VHF channels in use. Tis applies normally only to area from
the first stage of the German DVB-T project.

Lower Saxony has recently (November 2008) cleared several channels, like
in my area (Brunswick), where there had been an ARD Mux on Ch 8. Now  it
  is on Ch 47.

> The following diff will add the newly assigned frequency,
> and remove the old one, with an effective date of 24.Feb.
> 
> The particular modulation parameters are not confirmed, so
> I've had to guess based on existing values used elsewhere
> in the NDR coverage area as well as what generally is used
> throughout germany.

Information for the whole NDR area will normally be found at
http://www.dvb-t-nord.de.

There is a complete listing including parameters from "in area" and also
"out of area" (but with reception in the area) transmitters at

http://www.ueberallfernsehen.de/data/senderliste_25_11_2008.pdf

So have a look ;)

Best regards, Tobias


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Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[BOUWSMA Barry]

Mojn, as people say in the north and to the north of northern 
germany  ;-)

On Fri, 23 Jan 2009, Tobias Stöber wrote:

> Well, just have to send this message again, this time to the right & 
> correct mailing list linux-dvb@linuxtv.org. (Who by the way had the 
> insane idea, to set a reply-to address to another mailing list 

It also means that the original sender may not ever see a
reply, unless one overrides this and uses the From: header,
which I'm now doing in most replies, because except for a handful 
of developers, I really have no idea if the original poster
of a message to -dvb is even subscribed to any other list.
Most of the time, I'll guess they aren't.  Meaning the
reply stays on -dvb assuming I reply to all.

As a result, pretty much everybody is crossposting between
-dvb and -media rather than the so-called ``wanted'' effect
of abandoning -dvb and keeping all posts in one location,
that is, -media.

Naturally, posts that are delivered directly to me do not
contain this header, so my replies don't make it to that
other list.  Frankly, I ain't bothered anymore.


> As for certain area in Saxony-Anhalt, Saxony and Thuringia there ahve

Argh!  Don't do this ;-)  You're making me run for my
englisch-to-german dictionary which contains none of
these.  But anyway...


> in my area (Brunswick), where there had been an ARD Mux on Ch 8. Now  it

Okay, this isn't in my dictionary either, and while I
could guess the others, I have no clue.  Sounds Canadian
to me, which says more about my background, than of
non-native place names which I avoid (Milano it is; I
grew up not far from Milan and I am not good-looking
and sexy and sophisticated like the italians)

But that is neither here nor there...


> Information for the whole NDR area will normally be found at
> http://www.dvb-t-nord.de.

So far, only old info from last year is what I've found there.
Likewise, the site for Bayern did not give me any info about
plans to migrate the number of VHF frequencies into the UHF
band, while it did have a few interesting bits of information
not provided by the technically excellent, up-to-date, and 
informative BayernText teletext pages.


> There is a complete listing including parameters from "in area" and also
> "out of area" (but with reception in the area) transmitters at
> http://www.ueberallfernsehen.de/data/senderliste_25_11_2008.pdf

Interesting, thanks.  This gives me the overview by region
that I lack apart from Baden-Württemberg, Bayern, and the
like, as to the modulation in use -- mdr and to some extent
WDR do not follow the same pattern as seen in B-W....

I believe there is a mistake, though, in the data for HH.
The guard interval of 1/8 for all frequencies, both VHF and
UHF, from one Turm (font too small) does not match the 1/4
used as a general rule throughout germany, and used by all
the (UHF) frequencies in the Single-Frequency-Network
formed by the other Standort.

(The modulation parameters provided in the initial scan
file for Lübeck seem to be wrong too -- the one which
caught my eye when quickly viewing all de-scanfiles)


Even though my original plans to create a comprehensive
list of frequencies, transmitter sites, and technical
details for each Bundesland have been put on ice, as I
don't expect to be doing any travel to these areas in
the near future, it will be interesting for me to come
up with an overview of available quality in each region,
as well as to puzzle over what WDR is doing.


I wonder if, in addition to moving from the remaining
VHF frequencies, there will be plans in the future to
convert to a unified horizontal or vertical polarisation
nationally or by region.  Though this does not affect
tuning data, it is apparently an issue around Nürnberg...


barry bouwsma

Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[Christoph Pfister]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 716 bytes --]

2009/1/23 BOUWSMA Barry <freebeer.bouwsma@gmail.com>:
> Mojn, as people say in the north and to the north of northern
> germany  ;-)
>
> On Fri, 23 Jan 2009, Tobias Stöber wrote:
<snip>
>> There is a complete listing including parameters from "in area" and also
>> "out of area" (but with reception in the area) transmitters at
>> http://www.ueberallfernsehen.de/data/senderliste_25_11_2008.pdf

I've quickly built a collection of scan files according to this
document - do you mind having a look at them (although the change that
will happen in Hamburg sometime and possibly other changes that
happened since 25th November aren't considered yet)?

<snip>

> barry bouwsma

Thanks,

Christoph

[-- Attachment #2: de-files.zip --]
[-- Type: application/zip, Size: 6033 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 228 bytes --]

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Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[BOUWSMA Barry]

On Mon, 26 Jan 2009, Christoph Pfister wrote:

> > On Fri, 23 Jan 2009, Tobias Stöber wrote:
> >> There is a complete listing including parameters from "in area" and also
> >> "out of area" (but with reception in the area) transmitters at
> >> http://www.ueberallfernsehen.de/data/senderliste_25_11_2008.pdf

> I've quickly built a collection of scan files according to this
> document - do you mind having a look at them (although the change that
> will happen in Hamburg sometime and possibly other changes that
> happened since 25th November aren't considered yet)?

Certainly.

Just as a background, for the one or zero persons who care,
the situation in germany can be vaguely described thus:

There exist national public service, regional public service,
national/regional private commercial, and local broadcasters.

In general, the local and private broadcasters focus their
attention on large markets (Berlin, Frankfurt/Main, Hamburg,
München, and so on), and are not to be found so much outside
these limited regions -- with exceptions, like in Oberbayern
from the Wendelstein, but while the public service broadcasters
have a remit to reach the general population, the private
broadcasters have chosen to focus their financial investment
in those markets where they can reach a larger audience
share for little investment.  That is, the RTL and Pro7Sat1
families can be seen in, say, Hamburg, but far from these
metro areas, you are pretty much limited to a subset of the
public broadcasters.


Of the national and regional public broadcasters, the DVB-T
situation can be pretty much described as thusly...

There is a truly national broadcaster, the second german
broadcaster, ZDF, which has a multiplex known as ZDFmobil
which is available nationally, and is identical whether
received in Flensburg or Passau (hey, no heckling, that was
a beloved train ride for me years ago).

The other nominally national broadcaster, ARD, known as the
first german broadcaster ("Das Erste"), suffers regionalisation
both through a local identity in a particular Bundesland,
as well as a regional DVB-T multiplex management that does
not always translate well to match those of neighbouring
lands.

This regionalisation is due to sub-management by a third
party, which, perhaps as a super-regional manager, is
responsible for more than one Bundesland (for our original
case of Hamburg, this would be NDR, together with its
daughter Radio Bremen).  These `third parties' taken
together form that first german broadcaster, as well as
having their own distinct regional identities.


The practical example of this would be that while one
can see the same content via ZDFmobil anywhere, the
so-called ARD multiplex may contain, by region, EinsPlus
or EinsFestival, or perhaps in that region, that regional
manager's so-called ``Dritte'' (third, after ARD being
first and ZDF being second) programme.


In other words, nationally, one can receive the ZDF
multiplex, plus two others, which will depend on how
the regional management has decided to configure their
multiplexes.  Services such as Phoenix and `arte' will
be available nationally, while the `dritte' multiplex
will contain a selection of out-of-area regionals of
interest due to geography or whatever.


Now, while ZDF has a unified national service, the same
is not necessarily true for what you can receive in
a selected Bundesland.  For example, in Hessen, depending
on where you are, you may be able to receive the local
programming from the nearest Bundesland; in the south
of Bayern you can see SWR Baden-Württemberg but temporarily
not Hessen (or the DVB-H which replaced it), while in
the north you will instead see `mdr', although you may
have previously received SWR, which is the reason that
Bad Mergentheim in BaWü, near the border, will need its
own DVB-T transmitter sometime this year.


Now, anyway, for the zero readers who care, that's my
summary of german public broadcasters approach to DVB-T.
I'm happy to be corrected, because I'm an outsider.


So, anyway, there's been forces to cause merging of the
different regional broadcasters; NDR covers several
Bundesländer, with Radio Bremen retaining a bit of
independence; SWR has engulfed SWF and pretty-much-
identical-save-for-a-few-half-hour-bits-here-and-there
programming can be seen on SWR-RP, SWR-BW, and even
SR from the Saarland.  This can probably be seen by
looking at the different frequency plans, although I
am too lazy and disinterested to do so now.  Anyway,
the Genève frequency allocations look to be based on
geographical locations, independent of the regional
broadcast administrator responsible.


What am I saying by all this tripe?  Well, there is a
regional frequency allocation that is presently used
by the public service broadcasters, but so far has
seen spotty adoption by the local and commercial
broadcasters apart from a handful of larger metro
regions, leaving most of the land by area dependent
upon satellite reception for these programmes.


Anyway, now that I have digressed in an attempt to
show that I can claim to know what I'm talking about
even after a few beers, here's my feedback:

The following seems wrong, because of the problem I
noted in the message to which you replied:

# DVB-T Hamburg
# Created from http://ueberallfernsehen.de/data/dvb-t_deutschland_stand_25.11.08.pdf
# T freq bw fec_hi fec_lo mod transmission-mode guard-interval hierarchy
T 205500000 8MHz 3/4 NONE QAM16 8k 1/8 NONE
T 490000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE
T 490000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/8 NONE
T 530000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE
T 546000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE
T 546000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/8 NONE
T 570000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE
T 570000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/8 NONE
T 626000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE
T 626000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/8 NONE
T 674000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE
T 674000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/8 NONE
T 754000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE

You should notice the duplicated frequencies but with
differing guard interval values.  I suspect that 1/8
is correct for a few more weeks at the single VHF
frequency, but I believe that 1/4 is the correct
value for all duplicated UHF frequencies.

In Niedersachsen, this frequency value leaped out at
me as being wrong:

T 563000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE


These problems are no doubt due to errors in the
original source from which you snarfed the data.
I suppose I could write a mail to be ignored to the
responsible parties...


As an end-user (fnarr), some feedback:

I find comments including consumer-channel-number
very helpful, particularly when correct, so that I
don't have to refer to a lookup table when comparing
a particular scanfile to press releases or other
consumer-focussed propaganda, given that these almost
exclusively give only the channel number.  That is,
grabbing a random file, and pardon any linewrap...

T 538000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/4 NONE # CH29: ARD Das Erste, 
EinsFestival, arte, Phoenix (TSMB/MDR1.1)
T 546000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE # CH30: 3sat, 
ZDFDoku/KIKA, ZDF, ZDFInfo (ZDF)
T 578000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/4 NONE # CH34: MDR S-ANHALT, 
rbb Brandenburg, WDR Koeln, NDR FS NDS (TSMB/MDR2.2)

...the listed channel numbers complement the frequency
information and match the majority of what I would
find online or in print media.


Now, as far as changes since Nov.2008, when a good number
of government drones were running about proclaiming that
the digital switchover was complete, well, they weren't
quite right, but anyhow...

There haven't been, as far as I know, any changes since
november.  There are planned changes to one multiplex
frequency in Aalen (BW) and introduction of a new DVB-T
site in Bad Mergentheim (BW) and Garmisch-Partenkirchen
(BY), if not more, and eventually, abandoning present
VHF frequencies, seen in Berlin, parts of Bayern, and as
noted, Hamburg, for example.


If I ever get around to a more detailed study of each
Bundesland, I'll offer more feedback, although I haven't
received any concerning my proposed enhancements to B-W
some months ago, so it may not matter...


Anyway, thanks for your work in merging these; that has
cut out a good bit of time I'd spend doing this by hand.


barry bouwsma
loser

Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[Tobias Stöber]

Moin, moin,

... and sorry Barry that I've to correct you on some parts of your 
summarization ;) I hope you don't mind.

BOUWSMA Barry schrieb:
> Certainly. Just as a background, for the one or zero persons who
> care,the situation in germany can be vaguely described thus: There
> exist national public service, regional public
> service,national/regional private commercial, and local broadcasters.

So what do you mean with local broadcasters? Or what is the difference 
in regional private versus local?

>  In general, the local and private broadcasters focus theirattention
> on large markets (Berlin, Frankfurt/Main, Hamburg,München, and so
> on), and are not to be found so much outsidethese limited regions --
> with exceptions, like in Oberbayernfrom the Wendelstein, but while
> the public service broadcastershave a remit to reach the general
> population, the privatebroadcasters have chosen to focus their
> financial investmentin those markets where they can reach a larger
> audienceshare for little investment.  That is, the RTL and
> Pro7Sat1families can be seen in, say, Hamburg, but far from
> thesemetro areas, you are pretty much limited to a subset of
> thepublic broadcasters.

That is partially correct. The real reason is in the structure and 
history of the German broadcasting market and the introduction of DVB -T 
services in different stages.

After the World War II the western Allies decided to organise 
broadcasting similar to that of the BBC (and also a bite like networks 
in the US) and give West-Germany a structure of federal states, which 
became responsible for broadcasting. Therefore the national government 
in Berlin is in most parts not responsible for broadcasting (apart from 
public service that is financed from there like Deutsche Welle radio & 
tv). The idea behind that was, that the broadcasters should be free from 
interference from the government and managed as an independent public 
service.

All decisions and legislation have to be made in the 16 federal state 
parliaments (and sometimes the Bundestag to), e.g. the 
"Rundfunkfinanzierungsstaatsvertrag" (State Treaty on the Financing of 
Broadcasting).

This law btw required people living in Germany to pay a broadcasting fee 
if they possess a radio oder tv set. This fee is use to finance the 
public-law broacasting services (like the stations organized in the ARD, 
ZDF, national radio service Deutschlandfunk/Deutschlandradio  and some 
other institutions). You'll be charged for the possession, nit for 
actually listening or viewing these stations. I won't go into detail...

First their existed only the federal public-law broadcasting system, 
where a broadcasting institution was responsbile for one (or sometimes 
more) federal state(s) / Bundesland. Apart from the where national radio 
stations like Deutschlandfunk ... as we talk about DVB-T I will from now 
one skip info on radio.

These stations all are organised in the „Arbeitsgemeinschaft der 
öffentlich-rechtlichen Rundfunkanstalten der Bundesrepublik Deutschland“ 
(ARD) and have their own local programme (often refererred as he "third" 
programme (das Dritte) and also contribute to a national programme 
called "Das Erste" (oder sometimes also called "ARD").

The leading role for a specific programme contribution rest with a 
specific broadcaster (sometimes this changed between them). For 
instance, the newscast "Tagesschau" or "Tagesthemen" are produced in 
Hamburg and the station in lead is NDR. The political magazine "Report" 
is produced and lead be either Bayrischer Rundfunk (BR), then called 
"Report München" or SWR, then called "Report Mainz". The magazine "FAKT" 
  is produced by MDR etc. pp.

Later there was a national TV service establised, the ZDF with its 
headquarters in Mainz and local studios in every federal state. This is 
also resembled in the name "Zweites Deutsches Fernsehen" (second German TV).

East Germany had a state controlled national service before 1990, with 2 
TV programmes and adopted the federal system after reunification. East 
and West Berlin were served by SFB (Sender Freies Berlin) For the 5 new 
federal states the NDR took over Meckelnburg-Vorpommern (as it was 
already responsible for all other coastal regions in Niedersachen, 
Hamburg and Schleswig-Holstein), Brandenburg became the ORB 
(Ostdeutscher Rundfunk Brandenburg), later merged with SFB to now RBB, 
and the three other federal states are served by MDR (Mitteldeutscher 
Rundfunk).

There are then other public-law TV stations which result from 
cooperation between broadcasters, e.g. KiKA (children channel, coop of 
ARD and ZDF), 3sat (coop of ARD, ZDF, ORF from Astria and SRG swiss TV), 
arte (coop between ARD, ZDF and France television) etc. or are part of 
additional or digital bouqets (like ZDF.info, ZDF.doku, phoenix, 
Eins.extra etc.).

Interestingly there was the situation, that if you had only analogue 
reception, you had to pay for e.g. 3sat and arte (broadcasting fee), but 
could not receive them, because the were mostly broadcasting via 
satellite or cable tv! This changed with switchover to DVB-T as they are 
part of the relevant multiplexes.

Later in the 80ies regulation allowed for privately owned TV station 
which then formed. Today their are 2 large private broadcasting networks:

RTLGroup: RTL, RTL II, VOX, SuperRTL and others
ProSieben-Sat1: ProSieben, Sat.1, Kabel Eins, N24 and others

The stations must also be licensed in one of the federal states and are 
required to broadcast are local/regional programme there(!), which 
results in the fact, that on DVB-T (and before on analogue TV) there are 
programmes targeted to the region and which are not available on 
satellite TV. For RTL in Niedersachen/Bremen there is a programme called 
"Guten Abend RTL" between 18h00 and 18h30, or on Sat.1 there is then a 
programme called "Sat1 - 17.30 live NDS/Bremen" between 17h30 and 18h00.

http://www.rtlregional.de/
http://hannover.1730sat1.de/

The private stations emerged before German unification, therefore they 
were only present in western Germany and West-Berlin. After unification 
they did - to my knowledge - not offer analogue service in Eastern Germany.

When the switchover from analogue to digital started, it began in 
metropolitan area like Berlin, Hamburg, Munich, and parts with more 
population like e.g. Hannover/Braunschweig or Cologne, Düsseldorf etc.

In all these areas there are at least the following multiplexes:

* "ZDF Digital" with ZDF, 3sat, KIKA and ZDF doku (time sliced, calles 
"Partagierung" in German) and another programme, mostly ZDF infokanal

* "ARD/Das Erste" with Das Erste, arte, phoenix and one of the digital 
ARD programmes like Eins.festival, Eins.extra etc.

* "Dritte" (third programme multiplex) with the main third channel of 
the relevant area (e.g. NDR in Niedersachsen/Hamburg/Schleswig-Holstein 
and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, RBB in Berlin and Brandenburg, MDR in 
Sachsen, Sachsen-Anhalt and Thürigen and so on) and 3 other programmes 
of the surrounding federal states / public-law broadcasters of ARD

* RTL-Group: RTL, RTL II, VOX and SuperRTL

* Pro7-Sat.1 Group: Pro7, Sat.1, Kabel Eins and N24

* at least one multiplex for other and regional private broadcasters, 
which may contain all sorts of stations with space for at least 4 
programmes/stations, maybe more if they are time sliced

Nationswide this often contains ComedyCentral and an example for a time 
sliced space is DMAX + Bible Channel in Niedersachen.

The introduction of DVB-T was in part funded with public aid money. The 
EU commission criticised this as an illegal grant in respect to the 
fact, that also private broadcasters like RTLGroup and Pro7Sat1 got 
their expenses reimbursed.

So the real reason for RTLGroup and Pro7Sat1 to not be present in DVB-T 
regions that where switches in later phases of switchover are:

- stopped funding (means costs would have risen)
- lack of interest (fewer viewer in rural areas compared to metropolitan 
areas)
- stations were only required to be present where the were licensed and 
had analogue service before

Therefore we have large areas where they are not present (whole Eastern 
Germany except Berlin, at lot of the south of Germany and rural parts of 
large states like Niedersachen (Lower Saxony) and Nordrhein-Westfalen 
(Northrhine-Westphalia) ... e.g. Cologne and Düsseldorf are have 
RTL/Pro7 and Müsterland in NRW or Oldenburg in Niedersachsen hove not.

There are then also some special local DVB-T phenomena, like radio 
stations over DVB-T in Berlin or special projects like the private 
"Leipzig 1" - multiplex which experiments with a small cell SFN nework 
of low-power transmitters within a very small area (area of the city of 
Leipzig) with 6 transmitters in that (Leipzig-Mitte, Leipzig-Messe, 
Leipzig-Grünau, Leipzig-Markkleeberg and Leipzig-Lößnig). This project 
does include TV and radio stations (Leipzig Fernsehen, Infokanal 
Leipzig, BBC World, Bibel TV, Radio Horeb, Radio Leipzig).

More info on that can be found on the website of Sächsische 
Landesanstalt für privaten Rundfunk und neue Medien (SLM).

http://www.slm-online.de/psk/slmo/powerslave,id,231,nodeid,231.html

Maybe there are other such projects, that I don't know of, because I am 
mainly interested in the area, where I live, work and travel, which is 
mostly Niedersachen and the North, Sachsen-Anhalt, Sachsen, Thüringen, 
Berlin and Brandenburg ;)

> Of the national and regional public broadcasters, the DVB-Tsituation
> can be pretty much described as thusly... There is a truly national
> broadcaster, the second germanbroadcaster, ZDF, which has a multiplex
> known as ZDFmobilwhich is available nationally, and is identical
> whetherreceived in Flensburg or Passau (hey, no heckling, that wasa
> beloved train ride for me years ago). The other nominally national
> broadcaster, ARD, known as thefirst german broadcaster ("Das Erste"),
> suffers regionalisationboth through a local identity in a particular
> Bundesland,as well as a regional DVB-T multiplex management that
> doesnot always translate well to match those of neighbouringlands. 
> This regionalisation is due to sub-management by a thirdparty, which,
> perhaps as a super-regional manager, isresponsible for more than one
> Bundesland (for our originalcase of Hamburg, this would be NDR,
> together with itsdaughter Radio Bremen).  These `third parties'
> takentogether form that first german broadcaster, as well ashaving
> their own distinct regional identities.

See above, I am no sure about ZDF mux to be identical in the whole of 
Germany but for Hamburg ONLY NDR is responsible and for Bremen and 
Bremerhafen ONLY Radio Bremen is responsible.

As DVB-T is regarded, there are work group in which alle partner, say 
public-law and private broadcasting stations, the local media 
authorities (Landesmedienanstalt) and the technical service providers 
are present, which decide about technical parameters, transmitting sites 
and parameters etc.

For all other corrections see my first part of the intro ;)

> The practical example of this would be that while onecan see the same
> content via ZDFmobil anywhere, theso-called ARD multiplex may
> contain, by region, EinsPlusor EinsFestival, or perhaps in that
> region, that regionalmanager's so-called ``Dritte'' (third, after ARD
> beingfirst and ZDF being second) programme.

Not correct, the ARD-Das Erste multiplex does NOT contain regional 
("third") programmes! There is always a seperate multiplex for the 
"third" programmes.

> In other words, nationally, one can receive the ZDFmultiplex, plus
> two others, which will depend on howthe regional management has
> decided to configure theirmultiplexes.  Services such as Phoenix and
> `arte' willbe available nationally, while the `dritte' multiplexwill
> contain a selection of out-of-area regionals ofinterest due to
> geography or whatever.

Correct. The out-of-area third programmes are selected due to georgraphy 
and the fact, that a lot of people may work and or live in another 
federal state (Bundesland) adjunct to the area.

So in the NDR area of Hannover/Braunschweig there is NDR + MDR, HR and 
WDR (which are the federal states, that border in this area.

> Now, while ZDF has a unified national service, the sameis not
> necessarily true for what you can receive ina selected Bundesland.
> For example, in Hessen, dependingon where you are, you may be able to
> receive the localprogramming from the nearest Bundesland; in the
> southof Bayern you can see SWR Baden-Württemberg but temporarilynot
> Hessen (or the DVB-H which replaced it), while inthe north you will
> instead see `mdr', although you mayhave previously received SWR,
> which is the reason thatBad Mergentheim in BaWü, near the border,
> will need itsown DVB-T transmitter sometime this year.

I don't get this info or what you want to really say into my head. So 
what's your point?

> Now, anyway, for the zero readers who care, that's mysummary of
> german public broadcasters approach to DVB-T.I'm happy to be
> corrected, because I'm an outsider.

Well, hope I could clear some facts, although I am also an outsider.

> So, anyway, there's been forces to cause merging of thedifferent
> regional broadcasters; NDR covers severalBundesländer, with Radio
> Bremen retaining a bit ofindependence; 

Radio Bremen is independent! But, because it covers a very small area, 
therefore has a small budget (which results in Radio Bremen to get money 
from the ARD's compenmsation fund) it is wise to closely cooperate with 
NDR.

It would be - just my opinion - a good idea, that the few very small 
public-law broadcasting institution like SR (Saarländischer Rundfunk) 
and Radio Bremen merge with others.

For instance, there was the time, where a merger of Berlin and 
Brandenburg (as federal states) were discussed (which later did not 
happen, I don't want to discuss that further). But it had the effect, 
that ORD and SFB merged to RBB, which is resonable, because a lot of 
people commute between Berlin and its surroundings.

> SWR has engulfed SWF and
> pretty-much-identical-save-for-a-few-half-hour-bits-here-and-thereprogramming
> can be seen on SWR-RP, SWR-BW, and evenSR from the Saarland.  This
> can probably be seen bylooking at the different frequency plans,
> although Iam too lazy and disinterested to do so now.  Anyway,the
> Genève frequency allocations look to be based ongeographical
> locations, independent of the regionalbroadcast administrator
> responsible.

Well maybe, I don't know a lot about that.

> What am I saying by all this tripe?  Well, there is aregional
> frequency allocation that is presently usedby the public service
> broadcasters, but so far hasseen spotty adoption by the local and
> commercialbroadcasters apart from a handful of larger metroregions,
> leaving most of the land by area dependentupon satellite reception
> for these programmes.

See first part. A part from sat reception there is also a widespread 
coverage with cable.

> Now, as far as changes since Nov.2008, when a good numberof
> government drones were running about proclaiming thatthe digital
> switchover was complete, well, they weren'tquite right, but anyhow...
>  There haven't been, as far as I know, any changes sincenovember.
> There are planned changes to one multiplexfrequency in Aalen (BW) and
> introduction of a new DVB-Tsite in Bad Mergentheim (BW) and
> Garmisch-Partenkirchen(BY), if not more, and eventually, abandoning
> presentVHF frequencies, seen in Berlin, parts of Bayern, and asnoted,
> Hamburg, for example.

The problem as such is, that in topographically flat areas like say 
Hamburg it is difficult to sort out what stations you receive from what 
transmitter site when actually using DVB-T.

This may also be true for areas, where the borders of different federal 
states meet, because you do not only receive your areas programmes and 
transmitters but also other sites.

To really verify those information you would have to rely on "official" 
documents and maybe have access to a directional antenna (aerial), where 
you could try to "locate" (or at least determine a direction) from where 
you receive the mux.

> If I ever get around to a more detailed study of eachBundesland, I'll
> offer more feedback, although I haven'treceived any concerning my
> proposed enhancements to B-Wsome months ago, so it may not matter...

Well, the only I can do is, offering you my help on the areas that I 
live and travel in.

On the webpages of the different projects there are often very recent 
and detailed technical information, which are sometime hard to find 
within the website.

The web pages and pdf files at dvb-t-nord.de are updated regularly and 
seem (as much as I could check) to reflect the current status of 
transmitters and parameters, e.g. Braunschweig (Brunswick) area again:

http://www.dvb-t-nord.de/empfangsgebiete/media/111108_h_bs_parameter.pdf

It does also contain information which out-of-area transmitters can be 
received.

Maybe you'll really have a deeper look because "DVB-T Nord" also covers 
Hamburg and the whole NDR/Radio Bremen area.

Regards, Tobias

Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[Tobias Stöber]

Hi Barry,

another info source regarding HH could be

http://www.dvb-t-nord.de/empfangsgebiete/media/hhhlparameter.pdf

It unfortunately does not contain recent or comming changes. But it 
contains detailed info, also technical parameters.

Regards, Tobias

Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[Christoph Pfister]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 703 bytes --]

2009/1/27 Tobias Stöber <tobi@to-st.de>:
> Hi Barry,
>
> another info source regarding HH could be
>
> http://www.dvb-t-nord.de/empfangsgebiete/media/hhhlparameter.pdf
>
> It unfortunately does not contain recent or comming changes. But it
> contains detailed info, also technical parameters.

I've updated my de-files:
- fixed the url (inserted the wrong one by accident)
- fixed vhf channels (they were using 8mhz because my trigger was wrong)
- add the the "# CHxy: name of programs" information
- 563 MHz --> 562 MHz (their pdf seems to use a wrong frequency for channel 32)

But I haven't looked at the new documents proposed in this thread yet.

> Regards, Tobias

Christoph

[-- Attachment #2: de-files.zip --]
[-- Type: application/zip, Size: 8751 bytes --]

[-- Attachment #3: Type: text/plain, Size: 228 bytes --]

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Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[Tobias Stoeber]

Hi Christoph,

Just had a look at your zip archive and the files.

Christoph Pfister schrieb:
> I've updated my de-files:
> - fixed the url (inserted the wrong one by accident)
> - fixed vhf channels (they were using 8mhz because my trigger was wrong)
> - add the the "# CHxy: name of programs" information
> - 563 MHz --> 562 MHz (their pdf seems to use a wrong frequency for channel 32)

You are right. 562 MHz as nominal frequency is correct, because for 
DVB-T this is calculated 306 MHz + channel number x 8 MHz. VHF would be 
142.5 MHz + channel number x 7 MHz.

It's just a centre frequency used for tuning purposes. The DVB-T signal 
should (ideally) use a 8 MHz width space from 559.25 MHz to 567.25 MHz 
for Ch 32.

> But I haven't looked at the new documents proposed in this thread yet.

I didn't compare that either. Could also be difficult, because of 
different revision dates.

Looking through your files in the zip archive, it rose some questions in 
my mind:

a) is it really useful to have scan files by federal state (Bundesland)?

Just let me explain with an example. I live in Sachsen-Anhalt on the 
north of the Harz Mountains area. To effectivly ("best") use DVB-T I do 
combine both transmitters in Sachsen-Anhalt (Mt. Brocken) and from 
Niedersachsen (Braunschweig). This is because some channels are only 
available from a specific transmitting site (private channels only from 
Braunschweig, RBB only from Brocken). The same applies to other regions 
in Sachsen-Anhalt (south east will have reception from Sachsen and 
Thüringen, north east from Berlin / Brandeburg etc.)

I think, this situation will also apply to other federal states.

=> I personally would prefer to stay with or alternatively provide a 
region based file, so I could look up and combine the regions of 
interest. What do you think?

b) Conflicting information

In your "Sachsen-Anhalt" scanfile you list on Ch 24 the ARD multiplex 
with (Halle-Stadt):

T 498000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/4 NONE
# CH24: Das Erste, arte, Phoenix, EinsFestival

which is for a large part of Sachsen-Anhalt useless (we can't receive 
that), as we actually receive on Ch 24 (from Braunschweig)

T 498000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE
# CH24: RTL, RTL II, Super RTL, VOX

=> have a look at QAM, its QAM64 in your scanfile and QAM16 for Ch24 we 
actually receive.

=> Does it matter, e.g. would instead of the unreceivable Ch24 from 
Halle-Stadt the Braunschweig Ch24 be found? (I did not test this).

c) You clearly missed out some information. I noticed for instance Ch 37 
in Leipzig (Sachsen) which is the "Leipzig 1" multiplex

Please have a look at the already posted link to SLM or my homepage:

http://www.to-st.de/content/projects/dvb-t/dvbt-sender-leipzig.de.html

On the other hand I doubt, that it would be a useful entry into a 
"Sachsen" scanfile because reception is limited to the area of the city 
of Lepzig.

As I have no overview of regional "special projects" in other area, such 
  omissions in the files may apply to other areas too.

@Barry

Just as a sidenote and for historical purposes I may point you to:

http://www.ifn.ing.tu-bs.de/itg/docs/030403Braunschweig/ITG030403Hoehne_Frequenzplanung.pdf

which gives an overview how in 2003 the concept for the north of Germany 
had been planned. This information is obsolete and has changed, but the 
document show a bit, how decisions evolved in consideration of federal 
state and "Medienanstalt" boundaries (e.g. Bremen) etc.

Regards, Tobias

Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[BOUWSMA Barry]

Grüezi mitenand!

*Whew*, that was a lot....

On Tue, 27 Jan 2009, Tobias Stöber wrote:

> ... and sorry Barry that I've to correct you on some parts of your
> summarization ;) I hope you don't mind.

No worries.  I've tried to give a view that an outsider could
use to better understand the situation and place a logic onto
the channel assignments, as it is a bit more detailed than the
situation in, say, Switzerland.  Or France.


> > exist national public service, regional public
> > service,national/regional private commercial, and local broadcasters.
> 
> So what do you mean with local broadcasters? Or what is the difference in
> regional private versus local?

Local broadcasters here would include, as examples, HH1, only
available in the Hamburg region, or perhaps some of what can
be seen in Leipzig, though that appears not to be included in
the .pdf file frequency list.  Likewise I'd include the
different services which can be seen via DVB satellite making
up FrankenSat and the like -- simply because I'm not familiar
enough with them and their reach -- I'd assume TRP is available
in Passau, but not throughout Oberbayern, for example.

By a region, I mean either a Bundesland, as opposed to those
which cover just a large city (Berlin, HH, Bremen...) or a
large part thereof.  For example, RTL has available a service
for Austria and the german part of Switzerland, and for HH SH
and HB NDS available via satellite, as does Sat1 with services
SAT1 National, SAT1 NRW, SAT1 NS/Bremen, SAT1 HH/SH,
SAT1 RhlPf/Hessen, and for Bayern, Test BY.  (info may be some
months out-of-date)

Unfortunately, I am not very familiar with the multitude of
private broadcasters out there and their coverage areas, due
to receiving satellite signals, which lack most of these.
Only occasionally will something catch my interest -- for
example, was tm3 a local München service, which happened to
be available nationally before it perverted into Neun Live
and wormed its way into DVB-T multiplexes?  And likewise, the
service which Hornauer took over before finally sputtering off
satellite after a shell game into Austria, whose original name
I can no longer remember...


> The stations must also be licensed in one of the federal states and are
> required to broadcast are local/regional programme there(!), which results in
> the fact, that on DVB-T (and before on analogue TV) there are programmes
> targeted to the region and which are not available on satellite TV. For RTL in
> Niedersachen/Bremen there is a programme called "Guten Abend RTL" between
> 18h00 and 18h30, or on Sat.1 there is then a programme called "Sat1 - 17.30
> live NDS/Bremen" between 17h30 and 18h00.

Actually, these services are now available nationally (and through
europe) via DVB-S.  Earlier, these were sent at least in part via
low-bandwidth transponders in the style of SNG feeds; today they
make use of dynamic PMT switching within a full-bandwidth 
multiplex, in the same way that WDR in particular switches to its
many regions for part of the day.


> There are then also some special local DVB-T phenomena, like radio stations
> over DVB-T in Berlin or special projects like the private "Leipzig 1" -
> multiplex which experiments with a small cell SFN nework of low-power
> transmitters within a very small area (area of the city of Leipzig) with 6
> transmitters in that (Leipzig-Mitte, Leipzig-Messe, Leipzig-Grünau,
> Leipzig-Markkleeberg and Leipzig-Lößnig). This project does include TV and
> radio stations (Leipzig Fernsehen, Infokanal Leipzig, BBC World, Bibel TV,
> Radio Horeb, Radio Leipzig).

If I remember, there is also an occasional multiplex in, if I
remember, Nürnberg...  I do need to look more in detail at these
projects.

What I do notice is that in the frequency list, Leipzig includes
only the three PSB multiplexes, including one on VHF channel 9,
which eventually should be moved, I would expect.

Also of note is that the dvb-apps scanfile for Leipzig does not
include the frequency for that low-power network.  I think I
need to do some homework...


> > The practical example of this would be that while onecan see the same
> > content via ZDFmobil anywhere, theso-called ARD multiplex may
> > contain, by region, EinsPlusor EinsFestival, or perhaps in that
> > region, that regionalmanager's so-called ``Dritte'' (third, after ARD
> > beingfirst and ZDF being second) programme.
> 
> Not correct, the ARD-Das Erste multiplex does NOT contain regional ("third")
> programmes! There is always a seperate multiplex for the "third" programmes.

I hate to disagree, but Brandenburg appears to mix rbb-Brandenburg
with ARD, with the `dritte' multiplex containing `arte'; this is
also the same for Berlin and rbb-Berlin -- I'm not sure if the PMT
switching is used here to make the Brandenburg and Berlin local
programming available through the entire area for the few hours
per day when they differ.

Similarly in Bremen, Radio Bremen TV is found where one normally
would see one of the EinsFoo digital services.

Hessen is the most obvious example, and the first I came across
when researching frequency plans based solely on offline sources
(teletext services).  ZDF lists its nationwide transmitter sites
and some details, in ten subpages of teletext page 779.  ARD does
not have this info anywhere I've seen, but instead the regional
Dritte programme teletext service lists frequencies, typically
for the `dritte' as well as the ARD multiplexes.  In the case of
NDR, this is on four subpages of page 667, but here only lists
one of the two non-ZDF public frequencies.

For Hessen, the frequencies listed on teletext page 399 is that
of the multiplex shared by ARD and hr-fernsehen, and apparently
there is only a third service available, making far more bandwidth
available for better video quality, or, say, additional AC3 and
narrative audio channels.

The situation is now better than it was years ago, with page 642
in hr-text listing the frequencies in use by the third multiplex
as well as the programming (shared by four programmes, usually
Phoenix and three out-of-region public-service broadcasters).

In Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, the entire area appears to be covered
by only two multiplexes, with ARD sharing space with three 
regionals, and nowhere are Phoenix, arte, and the like to be
found.  Interesting -- I learn something new each day.

Also in the Saarland, SR takes the place in the ARD multiplex
of EinsFoo.


Anyway, it might be interesting for me to learn how things have
changed in the distribution of programming since the rollout
of DVB-T and the adoption of fibre networks and such.  I have
read that apparently the regionalisation of the ARD programme
has suffered, with local mascots such as Onkel Otto, and Äffle
und Pferdle having disappeared as the source is taken from
satellite.  Time to figure out how I can book myself into some
tours behind the scenes...


> > Now, while ZDF has a unified national service, the sameis not
> > necessarily true for what you can receive ina selected Bundesland.
> > For example, in Hessen, dependingon where you are, you may be able to
> > receive the localprogramming from the nearest Bundesland; in the
> > southof Bayern you can see SWR Baden-Württemberg but temporarilynot
> > Hessen (or the DVB-H which replaced it), while inthe north you will
> > instead see `mdr', although you mayhave previously received SWR,
> > which is the reason thatBad Mergentheim in BaWü, near the border,
> > will need itsown DVB-T transmitter sometime this year.
> 
> I don't get this info or what you want to really say into my head. So what's
> your point?

Heh, good question...  I wish I could remember writing that...

I think my point was to try to say that one nationally-available
multiplex carries the same programming.  The (usually) two other
public multiplexes do not, when seen from a national perspective.
(The ARD multiplex in, say, Hamburg, is not the same as the mux
in Baden-Württemberg (EinsExtra v. EinsPlus) or Hessen (where hr
is included.)  However, while one of these multiplexes is the
same throughout all sites in Hessen, the third multiplex in the
case of Hessen exists in four slightly differing flavours.

In Baden-Württemberg, all three multiplexes do carry the same
content throughout the entire Bundesland, but this general
observation does not always carry over to other regions.


> > So, anyway, there's been forces to cause merging of thedifferent
> > regional broadcasters; NDR covers severalBundesländer, with Radio
> > Bremen retaining a bit ofindependence; 
> 
> Radio Bremen is independent! But, because it covers a very small area,

Well, yes.  I was looking at it as seen from a content point
of view, where apart from the logo, there exists very little
reason for me to choose it over the higher bandwidth available
from PIDs starting with 2600 via satellite...


> > leaving most of the land by area dependentupon satellite reception
> > for these programmes.
> 
> See first part. A part from sat reception there is also a widespread coverage
> with cable.

How extensive is the penetration of cable?  My experience is
that at least in some areas, apart from larger towns, many
places have no access to cable.  This is in contrast with, say,
Switzerland, where cable is available in what superficially
appear to be sleepy farming villages and is in fact the most
highly-used means of distribution.

These same areas are also out of range of the Telekom DSL
service, so with no cable, and no easy high-speed internet
in communities of thousands, one wonders how people live...


> The problem as such is, that in topographically flat areas like say Hamburg it
> is difficult to sort out what stations you receive from what transmitter site
> when actually using DVB-T.
> 
> This may also be true for areas, where the borders of different federal states
> meet, because you do not only receive your areas programmes and transmitters
> but also other sites.
> 
> To really verify those information you would have to rely on "official"
> documents and maybe have access to a directional antenna (aerial), where you
> could try to "locate" (or at least determine a direction) from where you
> receive the mux.

I need to parse some NIT table data again.  The last time I
did that, the information contained within was incorrect for
that particular DVB-T site.  For a DVB-H multiplex, I just 
got the coördinates of the box in which several transmitters
were located, and no clue apart from the direction of my
receiving antenna which it might have been.  This would also
depend on whether use is made of a SFN.


> > If I ever get around to a more detailed study of eachBundesland, I'll
> > offer more feedback, although I haven'treceived any concerning my
> > proposed enhancements to B-Wsome months ago, so it may not matter...
> 
> Well, the only I can do is, offering you my help on the areas that I live and

Much appreciated.  I used to travel a lot more, but that was
before getting old and taking an interest in digital broadcast
distribution.  I tend to focus more on the technical side, and
have less interest in politics and the like, as you could
clearly see from how badly I botched the description I tried
to give.


> http://www.dvb-t-nord.de/empfangsgebiete/media/111108_h_bs_parameter.pdf
> It does also contain information which out-of-area transmitters can be
> received.

Interesting.  The first example of such a thing which I've
seen  :-)


Maybe I need to spend some more time on this here Internet
thing.  Who knows, maybe I'll learn something...

Uf Wiederluegen,
barry bouwsma

Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[hermann pitton]

Hi,

Am Dienstag, den 27.01.2009, 09:30 +0100 schrieb Tobias Stöber:
> Moin, moin,
> 
> ... and sorry Barry that I've to correct you on some parts of your 
> summarization ;) I hope you don't mind.
> 
> BOUWSMA Barry schrieb:
> > Certainly. Just as a background, for the one or zero persons who
> > care,the situation in germany can be vaguely described thus: There
> > exist national public service, regional public
> > service,national/regional private commercial, and local broadcasters.
> 
> So what do you mean with local broadcasters? Or what is the difference 
> in regional private versus local?
> 
> >  In general, the local and private broadcasters focus theirattention
> > on large markets (Berlin, Frankfurt/Main, Hamburg,München, and so
> > on), and are not to be found so much outsidethese limited regions --
> > with exceptions, like in Oberbayernfrom the Wendelstein, but while
> > the public service broadcastershave a remit to reach the general
> > population, the privatebroadcasters have chosen to focus their
> > financial investmentin those markets where they can reach a larger
> > audienceshare for little investment.  That is, the RTL and
> > Pro7Sat1families can be seen in, say, Hamburg, but far from
> > thesemetro areas, you are pretty much limited to a subset of
> > thepublic broadcasters.
> 
> That is partially correct. The real reason is in the structure and 
> history of the German broadcasting market and the introduction of DVB -T 
> services in different stages.
> 
> After the World War II the western Allies decided to organise 
> broadcasting similar to that of the BBC (and also a bite like networks 
> in the US) and give West-Germany a structure of federal states, which 
> became responsible for broadcasting. Therefore the national government 
> in Berlin is in most parts not responsible for broadcasting (apart from 
> public service that is financed from there like Deutsche Welle radio & 
> tv). The idea behind that was, that the broadcasters should be free from 
> interference from the government and managed as an independent public 
> service.
> 
> All decisions and legislation have to be made in the 16 federal state 
> parliaments (and sometimes the Bundestag to), e.g. the 
> "Rundfunkfinanzierungsstaatsvertrag" (State Treaty on the Financing of 
> Broadcasting).
> 
> This law btw required people living in Germany to pay a broadcasting fee 
> if they possess a radio oder tv set. This fee is use to finance the 
> public-law broacasting services (like the stations organized in the ARD, 
> ZDF, national radio service Deutschlandfunk/Deutschlandradio  and some 
> other institutions). You'll be charged for the possession, nit for 
> actually listening or viewing these stations. I won't go into detail...
> 
> First their existed only the federal public-law broadcasting system, 
> where a broadcasting institution was responsbile for one (or sometimes 
> more) federal state(s) / Bundesland. Apart from the where national radio 
> stations like Deutschlandfunk ... as we talk about DVB-T I will from now 
> one skip info on radio.
> 
> These stations all are organised in the „Arbeitsgemeinschaft der 
> öffentlich-rechtlichen Rundfunkanstalten der Bundesrepublik Deutschland“ 
> (ARD) and have their own local programme (often refererred as he "third" 
> programme (das Dritte) and also contribute to a national programme 
> called "Das Erste" (oder sometimes also called "ARD").
> 
> The leading role for a specific programme contribution rest with a 
> specific broadcaster (sometimes this changed between them). For 
> instance, the newscast "Tagesschau" or "Tagesthemen" are produced in 
> Hamburg and the station in lead is NDR. The political magazine "Report" 
> is produced and lead be either Bayrischer Rundfunk (BR), then called 
> "Report München" or SWR, then called "Report Mainz". The magazine "FAKT" 
>   is produced by MDR etc. pp.
> 
> Later there was a national TV service establised, the ZDF with its 
> headquarters in Mainz and local studios in every federal state. This is 
> also resembled in the name "Zweites Deutsches Fernsehen" (second German TV).
> 
> East Germany had a state controlled national service before 1990, with 2 
> TV programmes and adopted the federal system after reunification. East 
> and West Berlin were served by SFB (Sender Freies Berlin) For the 5 new 
> federal states the NDR took over Meckelnburg-Vorpommern (as it was 
> already responsible for all other coastal regions in Niedersachen, 
> Hamburg and Schleswig-Holstein), Brandenburg became the ORB 
> (Ostdeutscher Rundfunk Brandenburg), later merged with SFB to now RBB, 
> and the three other federal states are served by MDR (Mitteldeutscher 
> Rundfunk).
> 
> There are then other public-law TV stations which result from 
> cooperation between broadcasters, e.g. KiKA (children channel, coop of 
> ARD and ZDF), 3sat (coop of ARD, ZDF, ORF from Astria and SRG swiss TV), 
> arte (coop between ARD, ZDF and France television) etc. or are part of 
> additional or digital bouqets (like ZDF.info, ZDF.doku, phoenix, 
> Eins.extra etc.).
> 
> Interestingly there was the situation, that if you had only analogue 
> reception, you had to pay for e.g. 3sat and arte (broadcasting fee), but 
> could not receive them, because the were mostly broadcasting via 
> satellite or cable tv! This changed with switchover to DVB-T as they are 
> part of the relevant multiplexes.
> 
> Later in the 80ies regulation allowed for privately owned TV station 
> which then formed. Today their are 2 large private broadcasting networks:
> 
> RTLGroup: RTL, RTL II, VOX, SuperRTL and others
> ProSieben-Sat1: ProSieben, Sat.1, Kabel Eins, N24 and others
> 
> The stations must also be licensed in one of the federal states and are 
> required to broadcast are local/regional programme there(!), which 
> results in the fact, that on DVB-T (and before on analogue TV) there are 
> programmes targeted to the region and which are not available on 
> satellite TV. For RTL in Niedersachen/Bremen there is a programme called 
> "Guten Abend RTL" between 18h00 and 18h30, or on Sat.1 there is then a 
> programme called "Sat1 - 17.30 live NDS/Bremen" between 17h30 and 18h00.
> 
> http://www.rtlregional.de/
> http://hannover.1730sat1.de/
> 
> The private stations emerged before German unification, therefore they 
> were only present in western Germany and West-Berlin. After unification 
> they did - to my knowledge - not offer analogue service in Eastern Germany.
> 
> When the switchover from analogue to digital started, it began in 
> metropolitan area like Berlin, Hamburg, Munich, and parts with more 
> population like e.g. Hannover/Braunschweig or Cologne, Düsseldorf etc.
> 
> In all these areas there are at least the following multiplexes:
> 
> * "ZDF Digital" with ZDF, 3sat, KIKA and ZDF doku (time sliced, calles 
> "Partagierung" in German) and another programme, mostly ZDF infokanal
> 
> * "ARD/Das Erste" with Das Erste, arte, phoenix and one of the digital 
> ARD programmes like Eins.festival, Eins.extra etc.
> 
> * "Dritte" (third programme multiplex) with the main third channel of 
> the relevant area (e.g. NDR in Niedersachsen/Hamburg/Schleswig-Holstein 
> and Mecklenburg-Vorpommern, RBB in Berlin and Brandenburg, MDR in 
> Sachsen, Sachsen-Anhalt and Thürigen and so on) and 3 other programmes 
> of the surrounding federal states / public-law broadcasters of ARD
> 
> * RTL-Group: RTL, RTL II, VOX and SuperRTL
> 
> * Pro7-Sat.1 Group: Pro7, Sat.1, Kabel Eins and N24
> 
> * at least one multiplex for other and regional private broadcasters, 
> which may contain all sorts of stations with space for at least 4 
> programmes/stations, maybe more if they are time sliced
> 
> Nationswide this often contains ComedyCentral and an example for a time 
> sliced space is DMAX + Bible Channel in Niedersachen.
> 
> The introduction of DVB-T was in part funded with public aid money. The 
> EU commission criticised this as an illegal grant in respect to the 
> fact, that also private broadcasters like RTLGroup and Pro7Sat1 got 
> their expenses reimbursed.
> 
> So the real reason for RTLGroup and Pro7Sat1 to not be present in DVB-T 
> regions that where switches in later phases of switchover are:
> 
> - stopped funding (means costs would have risen)
> - lack of interest (fewer viewer in rural areas compared to metropolitan 
> areas)
> - stations were only required to be present where the were licensed and 
> had analogue service before
> 
> Therefore we have large areas where they are not present (whole Eastern 
> Germany except Berlin, at lot of the south of Germany and rural parts of 
> large states like Niedersachen (Lower Saxony) and Nordrhein-Westfalen 
> (Northrhine-Westphalia) ... e.g. Cologne and Düsseldorf are have 
> RTL/Pro7 and Müsterland in NRW or Oldenburg in Niedersachsen hove not.
> 
> There are then also some special local DVB-T phenomena, like radio 
> stations over DVB-T in Berlin or special projects like the private 
> "Leipzig 1" - multiplex which experiments with a small cell SFN nework 
> of low-power transmitters within a very small area (area of the city of 
> Leipzig) with 6 transmitters in that (Leipzig-Mitte, Leipzig-Messe, 
> Leipzig-Grünau, Leipzig-Markkleeberg and Leipzig-Lößnig). This project 
> does include TV and radio stations (Leipzig Fernsehen, Infokanal 
> Leipzig, BBC World, Bibel TV, Radio Horeb, Radio Leipzig).
> 
> More info on that can be found on the website of Sächsische 
> Landesanstalt für privaten Rundfunk und neue Medien (SLM).
> 
> http://www.slm-online.de/psk/slmo/powerslave,id,231,nodeid,231.html
> 
> Maybe there are other such projects, that I don't know of, because I am 
> mainly interested in the area, where I live, work and travel, which is 
> mostly Niedersachen and the North, Sachsen-Anhalt, Sachsen, Thüringen, 
> Berlin and Brandenburg ;)
> 
> > Of the national and regional public broadcasters, the DVB-Tsituation
> > can be pretty much described as thusly... There is a truly national
> > broadcaster, the second germanbroadcaster, ZDF, which has a multiplex
> > known as ZDFmobilwhich is available nationally, and is identical
> > whetherreceived in Flensburg or Passau (hey, no heckling, that wasa
> > beloved train ride for me years ago). The other nominally national
> > broadcaster, ARD, known as thefirst german broadcaster ("Das Erste"),
> > suffers regionalisationboth through a local identity in a particular
> > Bundesland,as well as a regional DVB-T multiplex management that
> > doesnot always translate well to match those of neighbouringlands. 
> > This regionalisation is due to sub-management by a thirdparty, which,
> > perhaps as a super-regional manager, isresponsible for more than one
> > Bundesland (for our originalcase of Hamburg, this would be NDR,
> > together with itsdaughter Radio Bremen).  These `third parties'
> > takentogether form that first german broadcaster, as well ashaving
> > their own distinct regional identities.
> 
> See above, I am no sure about ZDF mux to be identical in the whole of 
> Germany but for Hamburg ONLY NDR is responsible and for Bremen and 
> Bremerhafen ONLY Radio Bremen is responsible.
> 
> As DVB-T is regarded, there are work group in which alle partner, say 
> public-law and private broadcasting stations, the local media 
> authorities (Landesmedienanstalt) and the technical service providers 
> are present, which decide about technical parameters, transmitting sites 
> and parameters etc.
> 
> For all other corrections see my first part of the intro ;)
> 
> > The practical example of this would be that while onecan see the same
> > content via ZDFmobil anywhere, theso-called ARD multiplex may
> > contain, by region, EinsPlusor EinsFestival, or perhaps in that
> > region, that regionalmanager's so-called ``Dritte'' (third, after ARD
> > beingfirst and ZDF being second) programme.
> 
> Not correct, the ARD-Das Erste multiplex does NOT contain regional 
> ("third") programmes! There is always a seperate multiplex for the 
> "third" programmes.

That is not fully true yet either and Barry is correct for Frankfurt
Rhein/Main and others.

Das Erste:602000000:INVERSION_AUTO:BANDWIDTH_8_MHZ:FEC_2_3:FEC_2_3:QAM_16:TRANSMISSION_MODE_8K:GUARD_INTERVAL_1_4:HIERARCHY_NONE:101:102:1
hr-fernsehen:602000000:INVERSION_AUTO:BANDWIDTH_8_MHZ:FEC_2_3:FEC_2_3:QAM_16:TRANSMISSION_MODE_8K:GUARD_INTERVAL_1_4:HIERARCHY_NONE:401:402:65
arte/EinsFestival:602000000:INVERSION_AUTO:BANDWIDTH_8_MHZ:FEC_2_3:FEC_2_3:QAM_16:TRANSMISSION_MODE_8K:GUARD_INTERVAL_1_4:HIERARCHY_NONE:201:202:70
rheinmaintv:818000000:INVERSION_AUTO:BANDWIDTH_8_MHZ:FEC_2_3:FEC_1_2:QAM_16:TRANSMISSION_MODE_8K:GUARD_INTERVAL_1_4:HIERARCH

If you look at the patch Christoph has created now,

http://linuxtv.org/hg/dvb-apps/rev/98d3c06e5ef9

even Berlin has "Das Erste" and "RBB" on the same multiplex.

It seems we can say that there are separate muliplexes for
regional/third programs of other states/Bundeslaender, but the ARD "Das
Erste" multiplex often contains the "third program" of the
state/Bundesland where the transmitter is located.

> > In other words, nationally, one can receive the ZDFmultiplex, plus
> > two others, which will depend on howthe regional management has
> > decided to configure theirmultiplexes.  Services such as Phoenix and
> > `arte' willbe available nationally, while the `dritte' multiplexwill
> > contain a selection of out-of-area regionals ofinterest due to
> > geography or whatever.
> 
> Correct. The out-of-area third programmes are selected due to georgraphy 
> and the fact, that a lot of people may work and or live in another 
> federal state (Bundesland) adjunct to the area.
> 
> So in the NDR area of Hannover/Braunschweig there is NDR + MDR, HR and 
> WDR (which are the federal states, that border in this area.
> 
> > Now, while ZDF has a unified national service, the sameis not
> > necessarily true for what you can receive ina selected Bundesland.
> > For example, in Hessen, dependingon where you are, you may be able to
> > receive the localprogramming from the nearest Bundesland; in the
> > southof Bayern you can see SWR Baden-Württemberg but temporarilynot
> > Hessen (or the DVB-H which replaced it), while inthe north you will
> > instead see `mdr', although you mayhave previously received SWR,
> > which is the reason thatBad Mergentheim in BaWü, near the border,
> > will need itsown DVB-T transmitter sometime this year.
> 
> I don't get this info or what you want to really say into my head. So 
> what's your point?

I guess they else can't receive SWR anymore in that region.

> > Now, anyway, for the zero readers who care, that's mysummary of
> > german public broadcasters approach to DVB-T.I'm happy to be
> > corrected, because I'm an outsider.
> 
> Well, hope I could clear some facts, although I am also an outsider.
> 
> > So, anyway, there's been forces to cause merging of thedifferent
> > regional broadcasters; NDR covers severalBundesländer, with Radio
> > Bremen retaining a bit ofindependence; 
> 
> Radio Bremen is independent! But, because it covers a very small area, 
> therefore has a small budget (which results in Radio Bremen to get money 
> from the ARD's compenmsation fund) it is wise to closely cooperate with 
> NDR.
> 
> It would be - just my opinion - a good idea, that the few very small 
> public-law broadcasting institution like SR (Saarländischer Rundfunk) 
> and Radio Bremen merge with others.
> 
> For instance, there was the time, where a merger of Berlin and 
> Brandenburg (as federal states) were discussed (which later did not 
> happen, I don't want to discuss that further). But it had the effect, 
> that ORD and SFB merged to RBB, which is resonable, because a lot of 
> people commute between Berlin and its surroundings.
> 
> > SWR has engulfed SWF and
> > pretty-much-identical-save-for-a-few-half-hour-bits-here-and-thereprogramming
> > can be seen on SWR-RP, SWR-BW, and evenSR from the Saarland.  This
> > can probably be seen bylooking at the different frequency plans,
> > although Iam too lazy and disinterested to do so now.  Anyway,the
> > Genève frequency allocations look to be based ongeographical
> > locations, independent of the regionalbroadcast administrator
> > responsible.
> 
> Well maybe, I don't know a lot about that.
> 
> > What am I saying by all this tripe?  Well, there is aregional
> > frequency allocation that is presently usedby the public service
> > broadcasters, but so far hasseen spotty adoption by the local and
> > commercialbroadcasters apart from a handful of larger metroregions,
> > leaving most of the land by area dependentupon satellite reception
> > for these programmes.
> 
> See first part. A part from sat reception there is also a widespread 
> coverage with cable.
> 
> > Now, as far as changes since Nov.2008, when a good numberof
> > government drones were running about proclaiming thatthe digital
> > switchover was complete, well, they weren'tquite right, but anyhow...
> >  There haven't been, as far as I know, any changes sincenovember.
> > There are planned changes to one multiplexfrequency in Aalen (BW) and
> > introduction of a new DVB-Tsite in Bad Mergentheim (BW) and
> > Garmisch-Partenkirchen(BY), if not more, and eventually, abandoning
> > presentVHF frequencies, seen in Berlin, parts of Bayern, and asnoted,
> > Hamburg, for example.
> 
> The problem as such is, that in topographically flat areas like say 
> Hamburg it is difficult to sort out what stations you receive from what 
> transmitter site when actually using DVB-T.
> 
> This may also be true for areas, where the borders of different federal 
> states meet, because you do not only receive your areas programmes and 
> transmitters but also other sites.
> 
> To really verify those information you would have to rely on "official" 
> documents and maybe have access to a directional antenna (aerial), where 
> you could try to "locate" (or at least determine a direction) from where 
> you receive the mux.
> 
> > If I ever get around to a more detailed study of eachBundesland, I'll
> > offer more feedback, although I haven'treceived any concerning my
> > proposed enhancements to B-Wsome months ago, so it may not matter...
> 
> Well, the only I can do is, offering you my help on the areas that I 
> live and travel in.
> 
> On the webpages of the different projects there are often very recent 
> and detailed technical information, which are sometime hard to find 
> within the website.
> 
> The web pages and pdf files at dvb-t-nord.de are updated regularly and 
> seem (as much as I could check) to reflect the current status of 
> transmitters and parameters, e.g. Braunschweig (Brunswick) area again:
> 
> http://www.dvb-t-nord.de/empfangsgebiete/media/111108_h_bs_parameter.pdf
> 
> It does also contain information which out-of-area transmitters can be 
> received.
> 
> Maybe you'll really have a deeper look because "DVB-T Nord" also covers 
> Hamburg and the whole NDR/Radio Bremen area.
> 
> Regards, Tobias
> 

Cheers,
Hermann

Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[Tobias Stoeber]

Hi all,

BOUWSMA Barry schrieb:
>>... and sorry Barry that I've to correct you on some parts of your
>>summarization ;) I hope you don't mind.
> 
> No worries.  I've tried to give a view that an outsider could
> use to better understand the situation and place a logic onto
> the channel assignments, as it is a bit more detailed than the
> situation in, say, Switzerland.  Or France.

Never been there lately, so I don't know nothing about it. Maybe it's 
just due to the fact, that the grown world of German broadcasting tends 
to be rather complex. ;)

Not to mention radio services, which apart from classical FM (VHF) and 
AM (medium wave, long wave and short wave) do include DAB, radio over 
DVB-T and DVB-S and a lot of experiementing like "HD radio" etc.

>>So what do you mean with local broadcasters? Or what is the difference in
>>regional private versus local?
> 
> Local broadcasters here would include, as examples, HH1, only
> available in the Hamburg region, or perhaps some of what can
> be seen in Leipzig, though that appears not to be included in
> the .pdf file frequency list.  Likewise I'd include the
> different services which can be seen via DVB satellite making
> up FrankenSat and the like -- simply because I'm not familiar
> enough with them and their reach -- I'd assume TRP is available
> in Passau, but not throughout Oberbayern, for example.

Okay, now I got that ;)

> By a region, I mean either a Bundesland, as opposed to those
> which cover just a large city (Berlin, HH, Bremen...) or a
> large part thereof.  For example, RTL has available a service
> for Austria and the german part of Switzerland, and for HH SH
> and HB NDS available via satellite, as does Sat1 with services
> SAT1 National, SAT1 NRW, SAT1 NS/Bremen, SAT1 HH/SH,
> SAT1 RhlPf/Hessen, and for Bayern, Test BY.  (info may be some
> months out-of-date)

Well, Berlin, Hamburg and Bremen are not a good example, because 
actually they are a Bundesland ;) But I got the point, you tried to make.

> Unfortunately, I am not very familiar with the multitude of
> private broadcasters out there and their coverage areas, due
> to receiving satellite signals, which lack most of these.
> Only occasionally will something catch my interest -- for
> example, was tm3 a local München service, which happened to
> be available nationally before it perverted into Neun Live
> and wormed its way into DVB-T multiplexes?  And likewise, the
> service which Hornauer took over before finally sputtering off
> satellite after a shell game into Austria, whose original name
> I can no longer remember...

I doubt, that apart from a handful of people, a simgle person has a 
complete overview and knowledge in regard to every little broadcasting 
station in Germany. Just remember, that there a also a lot of local 
stations that a distributed via cable only. For instance all the 
"Offener Kanal" (citizen tv, may I call it so?) stations.

>>The stations must also be licensed in one of the federal states and are
>>required to broadcast are local/regional programme there(!), which results in
>>the fact, that on DVB-T (and before on analogue TV) there are programmes
>>targeted to the region and which are not available on satellite TV. For RTL in
>>Niedersachen/Bremen there is a programme called "Guten Abend RTL" between
>>18h00 and 18h30, or on Sat.1 there is then a programme called "Sat1 - 17.30
>>live NDS/Bremen" between 17h30 and 18h00.
> 
> Actually, these services are now available nationally (and through
> europe) via DVB-S.  Earlier, these were sent at least in part via
> low-bandwidth transponders in the style of SNG feeds; today they
> make use of dynamic PMT switching within a full-bandwidth 
> multiplex, in the same way that WDR in particular switches to its
> many regions for part of the day.

Oh, thanks for the information (and correction). As I am not longer able 
to use satellite / DVB-S, I've lost track on the developments there.

> If I remember, there is also an occasional multiplex in, if I
> remember, Nürnberg...  I do need to look more in detail at these
> projects.

Would be interting, if you find out any information. As I've searched 
for a detailed list, I've come across:

   http://dvb-t.the-media-channel.com/

which has a very uptodate and detailed listing, which I checked for 
Leipzig (including the SLM city multiplex!):

http://dvb-t.the-media-channel.com/mitteldeutschland/dvb-t-leipzig.html

These listing contain a lot of technical information (I was really 
amazed how detailed).

> What I do notice is that in the frequency list, Leipzig includes
> only the three PSB multiplexes, including one on VHF channel 9,
> which eventually should be moved, I would expect.

I would not expect, that this VHF Ch 9 will change in the next months. 
No news about that.

That only the 3 PSB multiplexes are listed may be due to the fact, that 
die technical provider for the "Leipzig 1" mux is not Media Broadcast 
GmbH (former T-Systems Media&Broadcast GmbH (M&B), now part of TDF from 
France ... has sort of a monopol on DVB-T in Germany) but MUGLER AG.

The network uses exsiting buildings / infrastructure, low power 
transmitters and rotating field antennas (which is quite unique for 
DVB-T in Germany, a least the website says so).

>>Not correct, the ARD-Das Erste multiplex does NOT contain regional ("third")
>>programmes! There is always a seperate multiplex for the "third" programmes.
> 
> I hate to disagree, but Brandenburg appears to mix rbb-Brandenburg
> with ARD, with the `dritte' multiplex containing `arte'; this is
> also the same for Berlin and rbb-Berlin -- I'm not sure if the PMT
> switching is used here to make the Brandenburg and Berlin local
> programming available through the entire area for the few hours
> per day when they differ.

Okay. Thanks for the advice. I am wrong on that and you are right. 
Thanks also to Herrmann ;)

I need to do some homework too, it seems so. :(

> I think my point was to try to say that one nationally-available
> multiplex carries the same programming.  The (usually) two other
> public multiplexes do not, when seen from a national perspective.
> (The ARD multiplex in, say, Hamburg, is not the same as the mux
> in Baden-Württemberg (EinsExtra v. EinsPlus) or Hessen (where hr
> is included.)  However, while one of these multiplexes is the
> same throughout all sites in Hessen, the third multiplex in the
> case of Hessen exists in four slightly differing flavours.
> 
> In Baden-Württemberg, all three multiplexes do carry the same
> content throughout the entire Bundesland, but this general
> observation does not always carry over to other regions.

Due to the federal structure of the broadcasting system which one 
public-law broadcaster and a "Landesmedienanstalt" in the lead, there 
will obviously never be a nationwide identical strucure. At least I 
think so.

>>See first part. A part from sat reception there is also a widespread coverage
>>with cable.
> 
> How extensive is the penetration of cable?  My experience is
> that at least in some areas, apart from larger towns, many
> places have no access to cable.  This is in contrast with, say,
> Switzerland, where cable is available in what superficially
> appear to be sleepy farming villages and is in fact the most
> highly-used means of distribution.
> 
> These same areas are also out of range of the Telekom DSL
> service, so with no cable, and no easy high-speed internet
> in communities of thousands, one wonders how people live...

Well, I think that a lot of metropolitan and also small city areas (down 
to 10.000 inhabitants) do have access, at least in part, to cable tv & 
radio.

Former Bundespost invested heavily in such infrastructure in the 80ies 
and 90ies, which does also mean, that some parts of it may be 
technically not very uptodate. As Telekom had to sell (at least a large 
part of?) that business, it is now divided into a few big and a lot more 
smaller companies.

You could do some research on the respective websites, say

Kabel Deutschland
http://www.kabeldeutschland.de

Primacom
http://www.primacom.de/

etc.

Even a city like Tröglitz (some relatives of me live there, 2816 
inhabitants according to Wikipedia) has access to cable.

>>Well, the only I can do is, offering you my help on the areas that I live and
> 
> Much appreciated.  I used to travel a lot more, but that was
> before getting old and taking an interest in digital broadcast
> distribution.  I tend to focus more on the technical side, and
> have less interest in politics and the like, as you could
> clearly see from how badly I botched the description I tried
> to give.

So then I'll try to do some research and "verification" ... sometimes it 
is enough to read the local news ;)

Regards, Tobias

Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[BOUWSMA Barry]

Salü, Tobias...

On Tue, 27 Jan 2009, Tobias Stoeber wrote:

> You are right. 562 MHz as nominal frequency is correct, because for 

> It's just a centre frequency used for tuning purposes. The DVB-T signal 
> should (ideally) use a 8 MHz width space from 559.25 MHz to 567.25 MHz 
> for Ch 32.

Is this correct, or should the range be from 558 to 566MHz,
apart from locations (such as the UK and Australia) where an
offset may be used?

I'd assume the 1,25MHz offset you list is due to the use of
analogue suppressed sideband, where the actual carrier to
be modulated would be, for E21: 21   471.250; the sound
carrier at some offset to this which I don't remember, not
having interest much in the many different analogue norms...


> Looking through your files in the zip archive, it rose some questions in 
> my mind:
> 
> a) is it really useful to have scan files by federal state (Bundesland)?

Maybe.  It's better, in my mind, than the existing case of
individual sites, which again, may or may not cover the case
of nearby areas.

I'm trying to decide if a de-all type of file would make any
sense, and how to go about it, because I'm dissatisfied with
the current state of de-Wherever files.

In the case of ch-all, it makes sense, because it's a simple
case of generally a single multiplex per language region, based
on the GE06 frequency allocations, in a smaller geographic area.


> Just let me explain with an example. I live in Sachsen-Anhalt on the 
> north of the Harz Mountains area. To effectivly ("best") use DVB-T I do 
> combine both transmitters in Sachsen-Anhalt (Mt. Brocken) and from 
> Niedersachsen (Braunschweig). This is because some channels are only 

I've posted in the past my suggestion for a de-BW file, made
by hand, which tries to address this issue, as well as provide
an overview for anyone trying to make sense of the frequencies
and broadcast policies, as well as to help with antenna
orientation, towerspotting, or anything else that might interest
me, in a single location.

Have you seen this file?  If not, would you care to find it in
the archives (or I'll mail you a copy) and tell me what you
think of it?


> => I personally would prefer to stay with or alternatively provide a 
> region based file, so I could look up and combine the regions of 
> interest. What do you think?

A Bundesland-based set of files is a region-based set, or can
you better describe the regions you are thinking of?  In any
case, due to the nature of overlap, there will always be edge
cases regardless of region, bar island nations or those where
penetration is not aimed at close to 100%...

The division by Bundesland works also because of different
management in each Land, which plays out in channel assignments,
SFNs, and common use of a particular modulation, I am seeing by
the overview presented in the first pdf file.


> b) Conflicting information
> 
> In your "Sachsen-Anhalt" scanfile you list on Ch 24 the ARD multiplex 
> with (Halle-Stadt):
> 
> T 498000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/4 NONE
> # CH24: Das Erste, arte, Phoenix, EinsFestival
> 
> which is for a large part of Sachsen-Anhalt useless (we can't receive 
> that), as we actually receive on Ch 24 (from Braunschweig)
> 
> T 498000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE
> # CH24: RTL, RTL II, Super RTL, VOX

I intend to take Christoph's files and massage them to add
bits of info, reviewing the info by hand, adding missing info
and generally trying to come up with something like the BW
file I created.

But I want feedback about that file too, rather than to have
my changes be rejected after I've done the review and work.


> => Does it matter, e.g. would instead of the unreceivable Ch24 from 
> Halle-Stadt the Braunschweig Ch24 be found? (I did not test this).

This all depends on the device.  At least some of my tuners
effectively will lock a signal as if I've specified `AUTO'
in place of everything, even when what I specify is wrong.

In reality, when I've been in a new location and done a scan
without knowing transmitter site details, I've just used a
general purpose scanfile I've created which goes from 474 in
8MHz steps up to 850 or so, like
### Kanal 68 UHF
T 850000000 8MHz AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO


> c) You clearly missed out some information. I noticed for instance Ch 37 
> in Leipzig (Sachsen) which is the "Leipzig 1" multiplex

> On the other hand I doubt, that it would be a useful entry into a 
> "Sachsen" scanfile because reception is limited to the area of the city 
> of Lepzig.

For cases like this, I don't know if it's better to have
a separate de-Leipzig file as today, plus something covering
a larger region.  I would argue the case for keeping, say,
de-Stuttgart but losing everything else in favour of de-BW;
however, at least two locations there do not just list the
local transmitter frequencies (Ravensburg and Mannheim) but list
out-of-Bundesland frequencies (the Privates from FFM for the
latter, and austrian and maybe swiss frequencies receivable
around the Bodensee in the former).

That is, for the largest well-known cities, go ahead and keep
them, simply because they are so large.  Also if their situation
includes something to make them unique, be it the presence of
private multiplexes or special projects, which so far would not
yet include Stuttgart.


But that's just my idea, and really, I would like to hear
what you think of the contents of my de-BW file, as the
single bit of feedback I got on it was negative.


Adé,
barry bowusma
maw, the innernet's broke again...

Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[Christoph Pfister]

Hi guys,

2009/1/27 Tobias Stoeber <tobi@to-st.de>:
> Hi Christoph,
>
> Just had a look at your zip archive and the files.
>
> Christoph Pfister schrieb:
>> I've updated my de-files:
>> - fixed the url (inserted the wrong one by accident)
>> - fixed vhf channels (they were using 8mhz because my trigger was wrong)
>> - add the the "# CHxy: name of programs" information
>> - 563 MHz --> 562 MHz (their pdf seems to use a wrong frequency for channel 32)

As Hermann already pointed out, I've committed these files to hg. I've
extracted as much information as possible from the pdf (there are
still errors remaining: a ch65 <--> 778 MHz mapping somewhere, which
I'll fix myself, and the Hamburg 1/4 <--> 1/8 duplication, which I
won't touch) and I've done some spot checks against the existing scan
data. This should help many regions (where the scan files were just
collecting dust). So please (re-)post your additions relative to these
files.

> You are right. 562 MHz as nominal frequency is correct, because for
> DVB-T this is calculated 306 MHz + channel number x 8 MHz. VHF would be
> 142.5 MHz + channel number x 7 MHz.
>
> It's just a centre frequency used for tuning purposes. The DVB-T signal
> should (ideally) use a 8 MHz width space from 559.25 MHz to 567.25 MHz
> for Ch 32.
>
>> But I haven't looked at the new documents proposed in this thread yet.
>
> I didn't compare that either. Could also be difficult, because of
> different revision dates.
>
> Looking through your files in the zip archive, it rose some questions in
> my mind:
>
> a) is it really useful to have scan files by federal state (Bundesland)?
>
> Just let me explain with an example. I live in Sachsen-Anhalt on the
> north of the Harz Mountains area. To effectivly ("best") use DVB-T I do
> combine both transmitters in Sachsen-Anhalt (Mt. Brocken) and from
> Niedersachsen (Braunschweig). This is because some channels are only
> available from a specific transmitting site (private channels only from
> Braunschweig, RBB only from Brocken). The same applies to other regions
> in Sachsen-Anhalt (south east will have reception from Sachsen and
> Thüringen, north east from Berlin / Brandeburg etc.)
>
> I think, this situation will also apply to other federal states.
>
> => I personally would prefer to stay with or alternatively provide a
> region based file, so I could look up and combine the regions of
> interest. What do you think?

There are always "edge" cases, between transmitters, regions or
countries. If you want, you can always c&p from different files (they
don't hurt each other). But the cost-benefit side looks a bit
different: Using that pdf I could (hopefully) produce working data for
many people. Imho taking care of all those intersection cases is more
effort and not necessarily justified. And I reall hope that auto-scan
will spread more ...

> b) Conflicting information
>
> In your "Sachsen-Anhalt" scanfile you list on Ch 24 the ARD multiplex
> with (Halle-Stadt):
>
> T 498000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/4 NONE
> # CH24: Das Erste, arte, Phoenix, EinsFestival
>
> which is for a large part of Sachsen-Anhalt useless (we can't receive
> that), as we actually receive on Ch 24 (from Braunschweig)
>
> T 498000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE
> # CH24: RTL, RTL II, Super RTL, VOX
>
> => have a look at QAM, its QAM64 in your scanfile and QAM16 for Ch24 we
> actually receive.
>
> => Does it matter, e.g. would instead of the unreceivable Ch24 from
> Halle-Stadt the Braunschweig Ch24 be found? (I did not test this).
>
> c) You clearly missed out some information. I noticed for instance Ch 37
> in Leipzig (Sachsen) which is the "Leipzig 1" multiplex
>
> Please have a look at the already posted link to SLM or my homepage:
>
> http://www.to-st.de/content/projects/dvb-t/dvbt-sender-leipzig.de.html
>
> On the other hand I doubt, that it would be a useful entry into a
> "Sachsen" scanfile because reception is limited to the area of the city
> of Lepzig.
>
> As I have no overview of regional "special projects" in other area, such
>  omissions in the files may apply to other areas too.
>
> @Barry
>
> Just as a sidenote and for historical purposes I may point you to:
>
> http://www.ifn.ing.tu-bs.de/itg/docs/030403Braunschweig/ITG030403Hoehne_Frequenzplanung.pdf
>
> which gives an overview how in 2003 the concept for the north of Germany
> had been planned. This information is obsolete and has changed, but the
> document show a bit, how decisions evolved in consideration of federal
> state and "Medienanstalt" boundaries (e.g. Bremen) etc.
>
> Regards, Tobias

Christoph

Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[Tobias Stoeber]

Hi all,

I've just conducted a little test using the de-Sachsen-Anhalt scan file. 
  As expected, only 3 lines actually worked (those muxes transmitted 
from Mt. Brocken).

The line for 498 Mhz (Ch24 Halle-Saale), which is

T 498000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/4 NONE # CH24: Das Erste, arte, 
Phoenix, EinsFestival

does actually tune to the Ch 24 from Braunschweig, but fails to 
recognize the stations there, because of QAM64:

 >>> tune to: 
498000000:INVERSION_AUTO:BANDWIDTH_8_MHZ:FEC_2_3:FEC_AUTO:QAM_64:TRANSMISSION_MODE_8K:GUARD_INTERVAL_1_4:HIERARCHY_NONE
WARNING: filter timeout pid 0x0011
WARNING: filter timeout pid 0x0000
WARNING: filter timeout pid 0x0010

Using the correct setting of QAM16 gives:

using '/dev/dvb/adapter0/frontend0' and '/dev/dvb/adapter0/demux0'
 >>> tune to: 
498000000:INVERSION_AUTO:BANDWIDTH_8_MHZ:FEC_2_3:FEC_AUTO:QAM_16:TRANSMISSION_MODE_8K:GUARD_INTERVAL_1_4:HIERARCHY_NONE
0x0000 0x4015: pmt_pid 0x0150 RTL World -- RTL Television (running)
0x0000 0x4016: pmt_pid 0x0160 RTL World -- RTL2 (running)
0x0000 0x4017: pmt_pid 0x0170 RTL World -- Super RTL (running)
0x0000 0x4022: pmt_pid 0x0220 RTL World -- VOX (running)

Both testes 10 times....

BOUWSMA Barry schrieb:
>>=> Does it matter, e.g. would instead of the unreceivable Ch24 from 
>>Halle-Stadt the Braunschweig Ch24 be found? (I did not test this).
> 
> This all depends on the device.  At least some of my tuners
> effectively will lock a signal as if I've specified `AUTO'
> in place of everything, even when what I specify is wrong.

So for my Yakumo DVB-T stick it does matter :(

> In reality, when I've been in a new location and done a scan
> without knowing transmitter site details, I've just used a
> general purpose scanfile I've created which goes from 474 in
> 8MHz steps up to 850 or so, like
> ### Kanal 68 UHF
> T 850000000 8MHz AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO

So why then not provide a generic scan file listing all freq with AUTO 
parameters?

Regards, Tobias

Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[hermann pitton]

Hi,

Am Dienstag, den 27.01.2009, 23:46 +0100 schrieb Tobias Stoeber:
> Hi all,
> 
> I've just conducted a little test using the de-Sachsen-Anhalt scan file. 
>   As expected, only 3 lines actually worked (those muxes transmitted 
> from Mt. Brocken).
> 
> The line for 498 Mhz (Ch24 Halle-Saale), which is
> 
> T 498000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/4 NONE # CH24: Das Erste, arte, 
> Phoenix, EinsFestival
> 
> does actually tune to the Ch 24 from Braunschweig, but fails to 
> recognize the stations there, because of QAM64:
> 
>  >>> tune to: 
> 498000000:INVERSION_AUTO:BANDWIDTH_8_MHZ:FEC_2_3:FEC_AUTO:QAM_64:TRANSMISSION_MODE_8K:GUARD_INTERVAL_1_4:HIERARCHY_NONE
> WARNING: filter timeout pid 0x0011
> WARNING: filter timeout pid 0x0000
> WARNING: filter timeout pid 0x0010
> 
> Using the correct setting of QAM16 gives:
> 
> using '/dev/dvb/adapter0/frontend0' and '/dev/dvb/adapter0/demux0'
>  >>> tune to: 
> 498000000:INVERSION_AUTO:BANDWIDTH_8_MHZ:FEC_2_3:FEC_AUTO:QAM_16:TRANSMISSION_MODE_8K:GUARD_INTERVAL_1_4:HIERARCHY_NONE
> 0x0000 0x4015: pmt_pid 0x0150 RTL World -- RTL Television (running)
> 0x0000 0x4016: pmt_pid 0x0160 RTL World -- RTL2 (running)
> 0x0000 0x4017: pmt_pid 0x0170 RTL World -- Super RTL (running)
> 0x0000 0x4022: pmt_pid 0x0220 RTL World -- VOX (running)
> 
> Both testes 10 times....
> 
> BOUWSMA Barry schrieb:
> >>=> Does it matter, e.g. would instead of the unreceivable Ch24 from 
> >>Halle-Stadt the Braunschweig Ch24 be found? (I did not test this).
> > 
> > This all depends on the device.  At least some of my tuners
> > effectively will lock a signal as if I've specified `AUTO'
> > in place of everything, even when what I specify is wrong.
> 
> So for my Yakumo DVB-T stick it does matter :(
> 
> > In reality, when I've been in a new location and done a scan
> > without knowing transmitter site details, I've just used a
> > general purpose scanfile I've created which goes from 474 in
> > 8MHz steps up to 850 or so, like
> > ### Kanal 68 UHF
> > T 850000000 8MHz AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO
> 
> So why then not provide a generic scan file listing all freq with AUTO 
> parameters?
> 
> Regards, Tobias

yes, that is to what Christoph pointed his hopes too.

But for what is on the markets, and no end in sight, some/many need it
exactly, some manage to come through a mixture of exactly and auto,
which also breaks such auto capable for more if something is wrong
there.

Currently I would give the so far last word on it to the maintainer of
that mess, but I'm not against Barry and would even consider a "all
known universe" scan file including neighboring countries, if this
doesn't mean Christoph has it on his back too.

The reverse effect will be, we have it already with federal state scan
files now, that we likely will see more questions about why the hell I
don't get this one and tuning failed ... 

To share a center frequency over several federal states under such
conditions seems to be plain wrong and I wonder if there was a rule.

Cheers,
Hermann
 

Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[Tobias Stoeber]

Hi,

hermann pitton schrieb:
> The reverse effect will be, we have it already with federal state scan
> files now, that we likely will see more questions about why the hell I
> don't get this one and tuning failed ... 

Regarding the de-Sachsen-Anhalt file, apart from 3 or 4 frequency 
entries the rest is useless being within the state, because regarding 
transmitters the areas are mostly not coordinated.

Brocken and Magdeburg are the only sites with Sachsen-Anhalt that are 
corrdinated.

In fact, it is more common, that transmitters here are coordinated with 
sites from others states, e.g. "ARD-Das Erste" multiplex in Halle/Saale 
(Sachsen-Anhalt/Saxony-Anhalt) are coordinated with Leipzig 
(Sachsen/Saxony) and Gera (Thüringen/Thuringia), because this area is 
also topographically adjunct. "ZDF" multiplex is coordinated between 
Hale/Saale and Leipzig ...

> To share a center frequency over several federal states under such
> conditions seems to be plain wrong and I wonder if there was a rule.

This does not matter, as the transmitters in Brauschweig 
(Niedersachsen/Lower Saxony) and Halle/Saale (Sachsen-Anhalt) don't 
interfere with each other (the sites are more than 140 km apart) and 
there is a buffer zone of about 40 - 50 km between them, where you need 
a directed roof antenna to either receive one of them.

As I've experienced so far while travelling, that there are only very 
small parts in my federal state (Bundesland) of Sachsen-Anhalt where one 
can receive more than one transmitter site (and in most of this cases, a 
roof antenna is required, so you would normally have to direct this to a 
specific transmitter).

Well, I believe both scenarios(scan file for federal state versus scan 
file for a DVB-T region) have their pros and cons. :(

Fortunately programs like "Kaffeine" offer a full auto scan ...

Regards, Tobias

Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[BOUWSMA Barry]

On Tue, 27 Jan 2009, Tobias Stoeber wrote:

> > In reality, when I've been in a new location and done a scan
> > without knowing transmitter site details, I've just used a
> > general purpose scanfile I've created which goes from 474 in
> > 8MHz steps up to 850 or so, like
> > ### Kanal 68 UHF
> > T 850000000 8MHz AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO AUTO
> 
> So why then not provide a generic scan file listing all freq with AUTO
> parameters?

It's a nice idea, but apparently there are some devices which
do require particular values and don't work with `AUTO'.

Also, it will take some time to scan all these frequencies,
so I prefer to limit it where possible to known and nearby
in-use frequencies, rather than waiting half an hour to see
that just one frequency tunes.

And third, while it's the case for germany and most if not
all nearby countries, that the actual frequency in MHz will
be divisible by two (except for the few remaining VHF) and
have no fractional MHz values, this is not the same in all
countries where DVB-T is in use.

That could be due to the pretty much hard switchover/off
having largely happened, with no or a coordinated simulcast,
while other areas have to play with offsets, but I'm not so
familiar with the status and progress of switchover
everywhere.

There are apparently also some devices which need to have
any offset specified precisely, or they can't tune to that
particular frequency.


Anyway, one of my reasons for creating my version of de-BW
was not only to list the frequencies, but also to provide
info as I absorbed it about the transmitter sites and more,
that you wouldn't get in a generic universal frequency list.
That was prompted by an interest in trying to get my head
around the GE06 frequency plan and allocations, which would
also mean I'd need to try and understand the planning of the
SFNs.  That file can be shrunk and expanded by the use of
comments to make it more relevant to a particular area --
if you're basking on the Bodensee, you don't need to know
anything about France, Hessen, or some 2/3 of all the
frequencies scattered throughout the B-W file, and my
comments should make that easy.

After all, it wasn't until you pointed me to the first pdf
list that I was aware that QAM64 was in use in germany, save
for bleed out of france, and it will be interesting once I
get around to noting the transmitter sites on a printed map.


barry bouwsma

Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[Tobias Stoeber]

Hi,

BOUWSMA Barry schrieb:
>>It's just a centre frequency used for tuning purposes. The DVB-T signal 
>>should (ideally) use a 8 MHz width space from 559.25 MHz to 567.25 MHz 
>>for Ch 32.
> 
> Is this correct, or should the range be from 558 to 566MHz,
> apart from locations (such as the UK and Australia) where an
> offset may be used?

Well, you may be right ... I recalled that from former norms (analogue) 
and the fact, that the digital channels were expected to use the 
existing boundaries.

Looking at e.g.

http://www.kathrein.de/en/hfc/techn-infos/download/TA-163-164.pdf

it seems, that you are correct (or how to you read the info in the pdf?).

> I'd assume the 1,25MHz offset you list is due to the use of
> analogue suppressed sideband, where the actual carrier to
> be modulated would be, for E21: 21   471.250; the sound
> carrier at some offset to this which I don't remember, not
> having interest much in the many different analogue norms...

Yes, see above.

>>Looking through your files in the zip archive, it rose some questions in 
>>my mind:
>>
>>a) is it really useful to have scan files by federal state (Bundesland)?
> 
> Maybe.  It's better, in my mind, than the existing case of
> individual sites, which again, may or may not cover the case
> of nearby areas.

Well, the old style of de-transmitter_region scan file had the charme, 
that it is easier (at least for me) to select the transmitter sites in 
my direct surrounding and I've no real use of de-federal_state.

Take a large geographical area like Niedersachsen, so you come to the 
conclusion, that in most areas you won't need the overwhelming majority 
of entries in de-Niedersachsen (because transmitters are to far away), 
but you will in most cases need entries from the de-federal_state files.

But don't mind. The work of Christoph to generate de-federal_state files 
(from quite recent data) will help a lot, because some of 
de-transmitter_region where a bit outdated or not present at all.

> I'm trying to decide if a de-all type of file would make any
> sense, and how to go about it, because I'm dissatisfied with
> the current state of de-Wherever files.

Hmmm.... :-/

> I've posted in the past my suggestion for a de-BW file, made
> by hand, which tries to address this issue, as well as provide
> an overview for anyone trying to make sense of the frequencies
> and broadcast policies, as well as to help with antenna
> orientation, towerspotting, or anything else that might interest
> me, in a single location.
> 
> Have you seen this file?  If not, would you care to find it in
> the archives (or I'll mail you a copy) and tell me what you
> think of it?

Well, I had to look in may list archive, but did find it (your posting 
from 02 Dec 2008). First, I looks like a lot of wrok, especially because 
  this area not only benefits from other federal staes but also from 
France and Switzerland.

>>=> I personally would prefer to stay with or alternatively provide a 
>>region based file, so I could look up and combine the regions of 
>>interest. What do you think?
> 
> A Bundesland-based set of files is a region-based set, or can
> you better describe the regions you are thinking of?  In any
> case, due to the nature of overlap, there will always be edge
> cases regardless of region, bar island nations or those where
> penetration is not aimed at close to 100%...

I actually meant scan files for specific DVB-T region like de-Berlin, 
de-Munich, de-Nuernberg etc.

> For cases like this, I don't know if it's better to have
> a separate de-Leipzig file as today, plus something covering
> a larger region.  I would argue the case for keeping, say,
> de-Stuttgart but losing everything else in favour of de-BW;
> however, at least two locations there do not just list the
> local transmitter frequencies (Ravensburg and Mannheim) but list
> out-of-Bundesland frequencies (the Privates from FFM for the
> latter, and austrian and maybe swiss frequencies receivable
> around the Bodensee in the former).

In case of Leipzig this is certainly true and there may be other regions 
where there are some "special cases".

> But that's just my idea, and really, I would like to hear
> what you think of the contents of my de-BW file, as the
> single bit of feedback I got on it was negative.

Well, as a (mostly?) complete collection of all transmitting sites that 
could possibly be received, it's good work, that I would appreciate.

On the other hand, I am not so good in geography, so that I would have 
to use some sort of map to find out, what distances are between my 
location in Baden-Wuerttemberg (lets for instance say Ulm or Biberach) 
and the out of area sites. I would say, that for Biberach additonally 
sites from Bavaria (Bayern) or Switzerland may be correct.

I like it, could imagine to do a similar file at least for my Bundesland.

Interestingly you also list the height above see level and antenne 
height of the BW sites.

Ideally one would have the data, which ist displayed in the "reception 
forecast" maps (say location and technical data of transmitters sites + 
reception borders for indoor / outdoor / roof antenna) and about the 
topography, so that one could estimate for a given geographical location 
(retrieved by GPS or from a map oder Google), which transmitters may be 
in reach. ;o)

But I don't think, we will ever come up with the "definite" solution. A 
full auto-scan certainly really reveals, what is actually "receivable" 
... a more specific scan file will shorten scan time. In between there a 
not many solutions.

There are indeed so many factors in real life, that play a role 
regarding DVB-T reception (and scanning), like type and placement of 
antenna, sensitivity of the tuner etc. ... which are in fact not a 
problem of either auto scan nor a scan file  :-/

What a frustrating situation, isn't it? :o(

Best regards, Tobias

Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[BOUWSMA Barry]

On Wed, 28 Jan 2009, Tobias Stoeber wrote:

> > > should (ideally) use a 8 MHz width space from 559.25 MHz to 567.25 MHz for
> > > Ch 32.
> > 
> > Is this correct, or should the range be from 558 to 566MHz,
> > apart from locations (such as the UK and Australia) where an
> > offset may be used?
> 
> Well, you may be right ... I recalled that from former norms (analogue) and
> the fact, that the digital channels were expected to use the existing
> boundaries.

Well, the thing is, that where I came from and where I was
working as a broadcast technician many decades ago, where a
grandfathered norm was in use that makes a good PAL signal
appear to be practically high-definition in comparison...

The reason for the offset was due to the use of analogue
modulation on the video carrier, which causes a sideband
to be created on either side of this carrier, corresponding
to the frequency of the modulating signal.

For simplicity, I'll say that this blurry-o-vision would
have a bandwidth of about 3MHz, with some vague colour info
squezed above this, and then a separate audio carrier with
an offset of 4,5MHz from the video carrier.

So, *very* roughly, in ASCII graphics, the frequency spectrum
of the modulated carrier could be seen like this...
      _____ I _____
     /     |I|     \    ignoring the colour and sound.
  __/      \I/      \__
   F-3      F      F+3

This would require twice the bandwidth of the actual
information, or 6MHz for 3MHz baseband video, and 9MHz
when you add in the sound.

Strictly seen, the carrier F - modulation frequency f
carries the same information as F + f, so one can
transmit only the upper sideband without losing any
information, and filter out the lower sideband.

Because the filter is not perfect, and I've long since
drank the precise values from memory, there still will
remain a bit of the lower sideband...

          _ I _____
         / |I|     \
  ______|  \I/      \__
   F-3      F      F+3

Thus the 1,25MHz offset of F from the lower bound of
the frequency range.

And the upper bound will not be 8MHz higher, as that's
the step to the next carrier frequency here.  Those
1,25MHz belong to the leftovers of the lower sideband
of the next channel up.  So the maximum available
bandwidth will be based on 8MHz minus the 1,25MHz, minus
a bit for additional services -- I've never grasped
the details of the differing norms for audio, as I've
never had the need, only having picked up the above
as a side-effect from my work outside of television.


> http://www.kathrein.de/en/hfc/techn-infos/download/TA-163-164.pdf
> it seems, that you are correct (or how to you read the info in the pdf?).

I'll have to get to this later with a better net
connection...  But my basic understanding is that
the CODFM signal can be vaguely seen as some 8192
carriers packed within that 8MHz bandwidth (or 2k
in early-adopter parts of the UK), and there is
not the waste of a leftover bit of sideband that
needs the 1,25MHz offset -- instead you could view
the carrier as the center of the 8MHz range, as is
done.

Now there is no guarantee that any of this is right,
as I haven't attempted to absorb the multitude of
information I've come across to reach the `Aha!'
moment of enlightenment that I need.


> > Maybe.  It's better, in my mind, than the existing case of
> > individual sites, which again, may or may not cover the case
> > of nearby areas.
> 
> Well, the old style of de-transmitter_region scan file had the charme, that it
> is easier (at least for me) to select the transmitter sites in my direct
> surrounding and I've no real use of de-federal_state.

You also have the advantage of being familiar with the sites
you can receive, as well as your local geography.  If I were
to suddenly be plopped into your general area, I'd have to
dig out a map to try and see what might be nearby.  I'm an
outsider and don't have the background of a native, except
in a few places where I've spent more time than I should
have.  I've only once passed through Braunschweig on the
way to Danmark from the sunny south, and it won't be until
I take the time to do the research, thus familiarising
myself with a region which does not immediately bring to
mind Weisswurst or Spätzle, that the individual site files
(when they even exist, or when they are even accurate)
would be as useful to me.

Take a look at fr-*.  That's (in my out-of-date mirror)
over 100 sites.  One reason this is needed is due to the
fact that they chose not to make use of Single-Frequency
Networks, and so nearby towns are assigned different
frequencies, rather than the reuse that I've noted in my
comments for B-W.

Counting the number of ZDF sites on the ten pages of
teletext, I come up with over 130 transmitters, most of
which are shared with the ARD and others.  But this is
not always true, as there are a handful of sites, most
in edge cases, where only the ARD/Dritte stations are
being sent, so I'll estimate that Christoph will need
some 130 to 140 different files just to cover all the
sites, or regions if you prefer.

Then there is the problem that the sites do not always
match a large metro area, and unless you're working as
a TV installer, chances are you're not going to know
the names and coördinates of the actual transmitters,
though it is far better than the analogue case of
several thousand sites, including filler/repeater
transmitters...


> Take a large geographical area like Niedersachsen, so you come to the
> conclusion, that in most areas you won't need the overwhelming majority of
> entries in de-Niedersachsen (because transmitters are to far away), but you
> will in most cases need entries from the [regional?] [ de-federal_state ]
files.

I presume you meant to say you'd need regional site
files.

It's a tradeoff.  Do you want the 32 de-* files in my
out-of-date mirror, including one obviously-wrong
file, the regions Ostbayern and Ruhrgebiet, or do you
want maybe around five times as many, but up-to-date
and correct, or do you want, say, 20 files, with the
largest cities and separate or perhaps combined
Bundesländer, automagically generated?  Or would you
rather have about 20 files total, with the Bundesland
files at least partly massaged by me to add more info,
and applicable out-of-area info?

The thing which may not be immediately obvious is how
a SFN simplifies combined lists.  The B-W file you
reviewed replaces 13 (soon 14) individual region files,
most with three frequencies.  This is, however, cut
to a fifteen-line scanfile, rather than 39 total lines.
Depending on area, one could need to pull in three
or four site files, and that's not even including
out-of-area broadcasts -- Grünten, as eventually you
can see from its elevation and mast height, blasts
into areas one might not expect.


> > I've posted in the past my suggestion for a de-BW file, made
> > by hand, which tries to address this issue, as well as provide
> > an overview for anyone trying to make sense of the frequencies
> > and broadcast policies, as well as to help with antenna
> > orientation, towerspotting, or anything else that might interest
> > me, in a single location.

> Well, I had to look in may list archive, but did find it (your posting from 02
> Dec 2008). First, I looks like a lot of wrok, especially because  this area
> not only benefits from other federal staes but also from France and
> Switzerland.

Thanks for looking at it.  It could be seen as true, that it
would be a lot of work for someone coming from outside and
being told to do it, but in reality, I was already doing
this work, or had been, but into about five or six different
text files on three different computers.

Putting all the info into one place was a way to make it less
work for me, in the long run.

The thing is, I'm an outsider.  Just as others have their
own reasons for following linux development, there are a
number of things I like to do without considering the amount
of work, just because I'm interested, and these often are
related to technology and other technical matters.  Not to
mention my background of climbing antenna masts to cook my
brain, and guarantee I'll never be the father of my children.

As I was not familiar with the details that are made available
via teletext (a convenient offline medium when I haven't
had Internet access for remaining somewhat with-it), I
needed to do research to answer the questions I had, which
raised more questions, and on and on...  This included
trying to locate the antenna sites by name on printed
maps, then becoming intrigued by the alien (to me) concept
of SFNs, with my analogue background.

Anyway, the result was that I had made a bunch of different
sets of notes, in the unlikely event that someone might
consider hiring me for my areas of interest, but I thought
it might interest others in case they had the same view,
as an outsider, if I made it public -- particularly as
the BaWü scanfiles were largely missing, or inaccurate.

So why not try to transfer my mental overview into a
more permanent form, that I won't be able to drink away
so easily, and to see if I actually have a clue as to
what I think I know (which failed miserably in my
disinterested-outsider overview of german DVB-T  ;-)

The one thing I'd really like to include would be a
simple ASCII map that one can use as orientation for
transmitter locations.  In the absence of this, I've
tried to partner each site with a somewhat-large nearby
Dorf that can be seen on most maps that use most of a
page to cover the Bundesland -- which has not always met
my satisfaction, as an outsider, intimately familiar
with areas I've bicycled through, but not always having
had years of familiarity with, say, the PTB or other
locations that immediately ring bells with natives.


The thing is, the benefit from other areas is a result
of also understanding those areas.  That is, I added
Bayern without really understanding it, simply because
a BR coverage map pointed me at potential overlap.
Work to get an overview of Bayern will come later.  That
needs an overview of part of Austria (though info from
Bayerischer Rundfunk helps, but, um, do signals from
Linz really reach into Bayern?) where the switchover is
well underway, and the Czech Republic, which is
presently in the process of switching, but has not
reached the final step as in Germany.


Actually, the details of Switzerland may not be so easy,
but the overall view today is easy to describe in a few
words, quite the opposite of Germany.  I think I did
that in the file:  one multiplex, if you're around here,
this frequency, and a bonus DVB-H to go with it, and no
plans to make further use of the eight or so UHF GE06
frequencies available in each area that I've heard of.

France was easy too, because I had done my homework
in the hopes of receiving these channels when making a
holiday in the Kaiserstuhl, but it was too early for
that.


> > A Bundesland-based set of files is a region-based set, or can
> > you better describe the regions you are thinking of?  In any

> I actually meant scan files for specific DVB-T region like de-Berlin,
> de-Munich, de-Nuernberg etc.

I will argue that Berlin (also being its Bundesland) should
remain, and likewise Muenchen, for the poor out-of-area souls
who never make it anywhere else, and who would stare blankly
at me if I told them they were in Bayern, dude, you know, Ba-
vay-ree-yah.  There are things to see.

I'll need to make my overview of Bayern before I can suggest
how to handle Nuernberg.  It's an early adopter, needs some
explanation of the reception situation and such, and so far
I really don't have a good idea...


> > But that's just my idea, and really, I would like to hear
> > what you think of the contents of my de-BW file, as the
> > single bit of feedback I got on it was negative.
> 
> Well, as a (mostly?) complete collection of all transmitting sites that could
> possibly be received, it's good work, that I would appreciate.

I've since realized that I need to add more from Hessen.  I
made this file based only on looking at maps, and trying to
fit my limited experience in the field with what someone
might expect to see...

Ideally it will be complete.  The switchover is complete in
germany (save for a few frequency tweaks), switzerland, and
the nearby area of austria, though I'm not as up-to-date on
plans there for additional multiplexes, so the information
should not go out-of-date anytime soon -- though the swiss
could do an about-face and start a second DVB-T2 multiplex
with HD Suisse, just to spite me.  Or a second multiplex to
provide the missing second programmes and give more bandwidth
to improve the picture quality of the existing channels.
Anything is possible within the GE06 agreement, which is not
completely covered by my handcrafted scanfile.


> On the other hand, I am not so good in geography, so that I would have to use
> some sort of map to find out, what distances are between my location in
> Baden-Wuerttemberg (lets for instance say Ulm or Biberach) and the out of area
> sites. I would say, that for Biberach additonally sites from Bavaria (Bayern)
> or Switzerland may be correct.

No worries, you are no different from me.  Of course, I would
not need a map to tell you that in Ulm, you are practically
in Bayern (unless you are in Neu-Ulm) and due to the flat
nature of the land in that direction, you can expect to
receive signals from into the Alps or thereabouts.

The thing about the signals from Switzerland is that while
earlier the Säntis was known for clean strong signals that
would penetrate well into germany, hundreds of km away,
in part due to using one VHF frequency, as part of the
switch to DVB-T, the radiation pattern was greatly changed
to send as little signal as possible towards Muenchen and
other areas which got either a good or watchable signal.

I have the following rather-old and from-unknown-source
prediction of the radiation pattern...
29.2 27.2 25.2 24.2 22.2 20.2 16.2 16.2 16.2  6.2 14.2 24.2 28.2 
28.2 24.2 14.2  9.2 17.2 17.2 17.2 20.2 22.2 24.2 26.2 29.2 33.2 
36.2 35.2 17.2 38.2 44.2 46.2 44.2 39.2 25.2 27.2
which shows it is far from omnidirectional these days, as
is confirmed by reception reports.

The signals do travel well from Basel northwards along
the Rhein, as I had no problems receiving them while on
holiday in the Kaiserstuhl with a simple portable receiver
and stub antenna, both french and german bouquets.

The geography of the Schwarzwald, as well as the planning
to use a large number of lower-powered sites as part of
the SFNs, mean that people who used to receive the
programming from, say, Zürich (also VHF) nowadays can
receive nothing, in spite of being a few minutes from
the border.  In other words, apart from the Oberrhein
from Basel to Freiburg im Breisgau and beyond, unless one
is on a hilltop or pretty close to the border, one may
not receive the swiss multiplex at all, while the non-
directional high-power german transmitters may come
in clearly.


Of course, the easiest solution is to uncomment all the
out-of-area frequencies, as well as those used within
the area, and do your scan based on that.  Then, if I
have done my homework, you will receive everything.

And do enjoy your stay ;-)  Be sure to take your DVB-T
receiver with you as you climb to the top of the Ulmer
Münster, if you are not afraid of heights.  And as you
head to Biberach (which one, by the way?) do not forget
to take the long way, stopping at a Hausbrennerei,
trying a good home-cooked meal, sampling the local wines,
relax in a thermal spa, suffer through the Alemannische
Fasnacht, and promise to return, eh?


> I like it, could imagine to do a similar file at least for my Bundesland.

Allow me to offer to volunteer.  First I need to pull out
my maps, and try to get an overview of your area...

But do not expect me to have it complete by tomorrow.
As always, I have too many things to and too little time
and too many other things getting in the way...


> Interestingly you also list the height above see level and antenne height of
> the BW sites.

Like I said, I wanted to put it all in one place.  Such
technical data is easy to find, and quite helpful.  For
example, I used to think that the `Hochrhein' antenna
was the impressive concrete structure that one sees
prominently when heading out of Zürich.  Likewise the
listing for de-Loerrach, the imposing antenna is actually
in Switzerland, St.Chrischona, and according to my old
plans, transmits the swiss-german multiplex, not even
listed in this scanfile.

Having this info at hand, I can guess at coverage over
hills in the area of a certain site, when studying a map
with some topographic information.  A single hill of a
couple hundred metres can make the difference between
a signal I receive with just my finger, and no reception
at all even with a directional antenna, when placed
between me and a transmitter.


> reception borders for indoor / outdoor / roof antenna) and about the
> topography, so that one could estimate for a given geographical location
> (retrieved by GPS or from a map oder Google), which transmitters may be in
> reach. ;o)

The reception estimates are, in my opinion, highly
suspect, particularly if you download those from SWR
for B-W, due to the nature of the deep valleys that
cause that map to appear like some modern art with
green ink on a white background for a large area, but
then, I haven't wired my portable receiver for battery
operation to let me climb a few hundred metres and see
if some sites that might be in range are able to be
received clearly, or if there is some directionality
at the transmitting site.

That's another thing I don't mention.  I could be
sitting along the Bodensee now, dipping my toes into
the water in an attempt to get frostbite, staring at
the red glow atop the Säntis and wondering why I'm not
getting a strong signal, while much further away along
the Kaiserstuhl, without sight to the antenna, I'm
hardly able to miss the comparable mux.  Perhaps I
could add this to my comments, if I appear to be leading
people to think that coverage figures will be similar.


> There are indeed so many factors in real life, that play a role regarding
> DVB-T reception (and scanning), like type and placement of antenna,
> sensitivity of the tuner etc. ... which are in fact not a problem of either
> auto scan nor a scan file  :-/

As far as the antenna is concerned, I'm hoping that the
comments within are helpful.  For example, the situation
in switzerland is that now transmissions are vertical;
before they were horizontal, and there are still many
rooftop antennae with the wrong polarisation for that
direction -- similarly in B-W, a good number of areas
were served by vertically polarised filler transmitters
that now receive signal from a horizontal Grundnetzsender,
and antenna orientations are mostly unchanged.

That actually isn't so much an issue with DVB-T, apart
from fringe areas, as it's capable of delivering nearly
a perfect signal where analogue had visible multipath,
but it could also be that these rooftop antennae have
been unused for years, as pretty much every house has
sprouted a satellite dish.


Well, that has kept me from actually doing research to
add info to your überregional scanfile  :-)

barry bouwsma
longwinded

Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[Christoph Pfister]

2009/1/27 BOUWSMA Barry <freebeer.bouwsma@gmail.com>:
<snip>
> I intend to take Christoph's files and massage them to add
> bits of info, reviewing the info by hand, adding missing info
> and generally trying to come up with something like the BW
> file I created.
>
> But I want feedback about that file too, rather than to have
> my changes be rejected after I've done the review and work.
<snip>

I don't mind adding those further bits. They need to be after the main
block in the file, so that they don't get overwritten when those files
are updated e.g. because of a new pdf. They shouldn't be too
excessive, but for example I prefer if you add the Leipzip transponder
to the de-whatever file instead of creating a new de-Leipzig file, so
this point shouldn't cause trouble to you. People don't have to scan
every day, so it doesn't hurt if the scan time is increased by some
seconds.

Thanks,

Christoph

<snip>

Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[BOUWSMA Barry]

On Thu, 29 Jan 2009, Christoph Pfister wrote:

> > I intend to take Christoph's files and massage them to add
> > bits of info, reviewing the info by hand, adding missing info

> I don't mind adding those further bits. They need to be after the main
> block in the file, so that they don't get overwritten when those files
> are updated e.g. because of a new pdf.

Hmm, actually, the first thing I was planning to do would be
to sort the entries by, for lack of a better term, provider.
That is, roughly, ARD multiplex when appropriate, ZDFmobil,
and regional Dritte multiplex everywhere, and in selected
regions, the remaining of the seven assigned GE06 allocations
or, in short, private providers.

This is intended to provide an overview of these allocations
and the particular sites where they can be found, as well as
to handle the potential cases of frequency re-use in widely-
separated areas between two muxes with incompatible
parameters -- how often this will occur, I cannot say, as I
do not yet have a complete overview.

This also can help the case of Tobi, who would prefer to use
two or three transmitter-site files, in that it would be easy
to see which frequencies would be ``local'' (shades of Royston
Vasey here, ``You'll Never Leave'').

But I'm not sure how well this would work with a PDF-skimming
application...


As a concrete example, what I would create, would look like:

# DVB-T Sachsen-Anhalt
# Created from http://www.ueberallfernsehen.de/data/senderliste_25_11_2008.pdf
# mercilessly mangled by hand, please file in /dev/null
# T freq bw fec_hi fec_lo mod transmission-mode guard-interval hierarchy

### ZDFmobil multiplex; E22, E30, E31
T 482000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE # CH22 Halle
T 546000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE # CH30 Brocken, Magdeburg, Wittenberg
T 554000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM16 8k 1/4 NONE # CH31 Dequede

### MDR-S-A multiplex; E34, E35, E38
T 578000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/4 NONE # CH34 Brocken, Dequede, Magdeburg
T 586000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/4 NONE # CH35 Halle
T 610000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/4 NONE # CH38 Wittenberg

### ARD multiplex; E24, E29, E41
T 498000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/4 NONE # CH24 Halle, Wittenberg
T 538000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/4 NONE # CH29 Brocken, Magdeburg
T 634000000 8MHz 2/3 NONE QAM64 8k 1/4 NONE # CH41 Dequede

(This also can make it somewhat more 80-column-friendly, for
at least some regions)


Tobi, if I may ask you -- I have seen use made of, for example,
`K21' in german web fora to refer to the frequency spanned by
470 to 478MHz, while in swiss web fora, I often see `E21' for
the same.  I know that `K' can be both seen as `Kanal' (channel)
and `Kabel' (cable), while I would guess that `E' refers to
Europe, to differ the 8MHz spacing from that of, say, Australia
or some other land whose name I can't remember but which sort
of features prominently in parts of Thee Interweb.

But in my experience, cable-TV frequencies by channel number
do not always match over-the-air frequencies for that channel.
Are you familiar with the `E' usage, can you tell me if there
is an accepted international usage that covers all languages,
as my attempts to search `e' in g00gle were not impressive...

Thanks...


Anyway, with the above, after I pull out a map, I can say,
oh, this group of transmitters (probably) forms a SFN for
ZDF, and that group covers mdr, and so on.  That overview
was one of the things I was trying to obtain earlier, and
will be when I really work on Sachsen-Anhalt.


And to Christoph, the danger, as I'm sure you know, of
pulling from a PDF or other single source of information,
is that those will not always be infallible, as we've seen
with a centre-frequency ending in `3' and paste-errors
for Hamburg between VHF and UHF parameters, as well as
absent info for the specific cases of the frequency change
in HH; or for BW, the change planned for Aalen plus the
to-be-in-service status of Bad Mergentheim.

I suppose I ought to write the originator of the PDF to
point out errors, but I suspect I'll get at best a reply
from TV Licensing saying they have no record of me in
their database and that as a non-resident, I have no
grounds for criticism of their offering and I should
stick to the programmes for which I pay the license fee.
(How else can I explain the years-running errors in
linking of teletext pages, that are again changed to
errors when those pages are relocated?  ZDF, I'm looking
at you for failing to list your extended programme guide
following ttx page 380...)



Oops, off-topic again.


> They shouldn't be too excessive,

Oh dear.  The question is, how do I skate the thin line
between providing too much information, and failing to
include useful information?  I guess, it depends on your
interest.  If all you care about are just the frequencies,
and if I were to say to you `ERP' you would say, ``Oh, do
excuse yourself, you glutton'', then the existing files are
fine.  But if you need transmitter sites and info to
help you orient whatever antenna you use, or are otherwise
technically inclined, then perhaps I do not provide enough
info...  I'll have to rely on the feedback of others for
this, sad to say, being myself a technical geek...


> but for example I prefer if you add the Leipzip transponder
> to the de-whatever file instead of creating a new de-Leipzig file, so

No worries, I'd add additional information to both the
appropriate Bundesland, as well as to de-Leipzig.  Wait,
I just updated overnight, and de-Leipzig no longer exists!
Aieee!@  Good thing I made a backup copy of that directory
before I updated


> this point shouldn't cause trouble to you. People don't have to scan
> every day, so it doesn't hurt if the scan time is increased by some

Another thing  that I don't include is the precise channel
layout, as this can churn over time -- particularly with the
private local (non-RTL/Pro7Sat1) multiplexes, as participants
drop out, go bankrupt, lose their licenses, or whatever; or
when a national or regional PSB makes small adjustments.

After all, the results of the scan, if correct, will show
who is present...

Of course, terms such as `ZDFmobil' may not immediately
ring bells with the general public as including 3sat, or
`arte' typically meaning the ARD multiplex, but these may
be the same people who complain they can't see their quiz
call-in shows on the ARD mux, and they know that next time
they will win for sure, guaranteed, if they can stop staring
at the topless announcer long enough to dial the number which
will cost just as much as the last thousands of times they
tried that week...



Ah yes, looking at Bayern, there is an overlap between
the uncommon private multiplexes.  I've read that Pro7Sat1
is considering ways to increase bitrate to make available
AC3 audio together with higher quality video; this may be
a switch to 64QAM, a reduction of the guard interval, or
lowering the FEC error correction, which would make those
parameters incompatible with the others -- and I'll need
to manually add the transmitting sites to get an overview
of where it can be received.


Anyway, many thanks to Christoph for merging that info
into convenient files, and I'll post -- if only for the
benefit of the zero who care -- the fascinating info that
I can find based on that.


barry bouwsma
still writes too much, about nothing

Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[Christoph Pfister]

Sorry for the late answer,

2009/1/29 BOUWSMA Barry <freebeer.bouwsma@gmail.com>:
> On Thu, 29 Jan 2009, Christoph Pfister wrote:
>
>> > I intend to take Christoph's files and massage them to add
>> > bits of info, reviewing the info by hand, adding missing info
>
>> I don't mind adding those further bits. They need to be after the main
>> block in the file, so that they don't get overwritten when those files
>> are updated e.g. because of a new pdf.
>
> Hmm, actually, the first thing I was planning to do would be
> to sort the entries by, for lack of a better term, provider.
> That is, roughly, ARD multiplex when appropriate, ZDFmobil,
> and regional Dritte multiplex everywhere, and in selected
> regions, the remaining of the seven assigned GE06 allocations
> or, in short, private providers.
>
> This is intended to provide an overview of these allocations
> and the particular sites where they can be found, as well as
> to handle the potential cases of frequency re-use in widely-
> separated areas between two muxes with incompatible
> parameters -- how often this will occur, I cannot say, as I
> do not yet have a complete overview.
>
> This also can help the case of Tobi, who would prefer to use
> two or three transmitter-site files, in that it would be easy
> to see which frequencies would be ``local'' (shades of Royston
> Vasey here, ``You'll Never Leave'').
>
> But I'm not sure how well this would work with a PDF-skimming
> application...

I see some possible ways to deal with this. The one I already
mentioned is to separate the auto-generated and the manual part of a
file. You could provide further information about the transmitters
with comments in the second part of the file. If you want to relax the
constraints, you could allow re-ordering of the transmitters either
within the auto-generated section or within the whole file (in this
case you need to mark the individual transmitters). Actually I don't
care about the arrangement, as long as there are machine-implementable
rules for the update.

<snip>

> And to Christoph, the danger, as I'm sure you know, of
> pulling from a PDF or other single source of information,
> is that those will not always be infallible, as we've seen
> with a centre-frequency ending in `3' and paste-errors
> for Hamburg between VHF and UHF parameters, as well as
> absent info for the specific cases of the frequency change
> in HH; or for BW, the change planned for Aalen plus the
> to-be-in-service status of Bad Mergentheim.

They've updated their file and the mapping between channel numbers and
frequencies are fixed. So I consider it as a good base point (I need
only some fractions of a second to generate updated files :), will
commit them soon). The additions are up to people who know more about
the story ...

> I suppose I ought to write the originator of the PDF to
> point out errors, but I suspect I'll get at best a reply
> from TV Licensing saying they have no record of me in
> their database and that as a non-resident, I have no
> grounds for criticism of their offering and I should
> stick to the programmes for which I pay the license fee.
> (How else can I explain the years-running errors in
> linking of teletext pages, that are again changed to
> errors when those pages are relocated?  ZDF, I'm looking
> at you for failing to list your extended programme guide
> following ttx page 380...)
>
>
>
> Oops, off-topic again.
>
>
>> They shouldn't be too excessive,

I meant the number of transmitters, not the size of the file.

> Oh dear.  The question is, how do I skate the thin line
> between providing too much information, and failing to
> include useful information?  I guess, it depends on your
> interest.  If all you care about are just the frequencies,
> and if I were to say to you `ERP' you would say, ``Oh, do
> excuse yourself, you glutton'', then the existing files are
> fine.  But if you need transmitter sites and info to
> help you orient whatever antenna you use, or are otherwise
> technically inclined, then perhaps I do not provide enough
> info...  I'll have to rely on the feedback of others for
> this, sad to say, being myself a technical geek...
>
>
>> but for example I prefer if you add the Leipzip transponder
>> to the de-whatever file instead of creating a new de-Leipzig file, so
>
> No worries, I'd add additional information to both the
> appropriate Bundesland, as well as to de-Leipzig.  Wait,
> I just updated overnight, and de-Leipzig no longer exists!
> Aieee!@  Good thing I made a backup copy of that directory
> before I updated

hg has a good memory as well :)

>> this point shouldn't cause trouble to you. People don't have to scan
>> every day, so it doesn't hurt if the scan time is increased by some
>
> Another thing  that I don't include is the precise channel
> layout, as this can churn over time -- particularly with the
> private local (non-RTL/Pro7Sat1) multiplexes, as participants
> drop out, go bankrupt, lose their licenses, or whatever; or
> when a national or regional PSB makes small adjustments.
>
> After all, the results of the scan, if correct, will show
> who is present...
>
> Of course, terms such as `ZDFmobil' may not immediately
> ring bells with the general public as including 3sat, or
> `arte' typically meaning the ARD multiplex, but these may
> be the same people who complain they can't see their quiz
> call-in shows on the ARD mux, and they know that next time
> they will win for sure, guaranteed, if they can stop staring
> at the topless announcer long enough to dial the number which
> will cost just as much as the last thousands of times they
> tried that week...
>
>
>
> Ah yes, looking at Bayern, there is an overlap between
> the uncommon private multiplexes.  I've read that Pro7Sat1
> is considering ways to increase bitrate to make available
> AC3 audio together with higher quality video; this may be
> a switch to 64QAM, a reduction of the guard interval, or
> lowering the FEC error correction, which would make those
> parameters incompatible with the others -- and I'll need
> to manually add the transmitting sites to get an overview
> of where it can be received.
>
>
> Anyway, many thanks to Christoph for merging that info
> into convenient files, and I'll post -- if only for the
> benefit of the zero who care -- the fascinating info that
> I can find based on that.
>
>
> barry bouwsma
> still writes too much, about nothing

Christoph

Re: [linux-dvb] Upcoming DVB-T channel changes for HH (Hamburg)

[BOUWSMA Barry]

On Sat, 7 Feb 2009, Christoph Pfister wrote:

> Sorry for the late answer,

No worries, I've been keeping busy by discovering yet more
info.  Discovering a site where not only does everyone know
more than me and where all the info I could possibly want
is there for the taking, but where I feel more unworthy
than usual.

So, while I still have yet to mangle the machine-generated
output, I did observe the following:

It seems that the info for Hansestadt Bremen (Radio Bremen)
can be merged into that for Niedersachsen, as the presence
of an RB multiplex in the latter disturbed me, until I
noted that apparently all the (Bundesland) Bremen frequencies
are also used in Bremerhaven.  So, one less file to maintain.


Not only is Hansestadt Hamburg migrating away from the VHF
Band III allocation which kicked off this too-long-running
thread, but at some yet unspecified time this year (2009),
most if not all of the remaining Band III DVB-T transmitters
will also relocate.  This affects primarily Bayern, but also
a few other sites (FFM, Berlin...)

I don't know if the frequencies I've read are confirmed, or
mere speculation; further, I know no fixed planned dates.
But more importantly, I don't know if it's worth it for me
to bother to announce known and confirmed changes, or if I
should relax and let the official channels publish the info
to be massaged into scanfiles.

Any residents who might happen to read the info I post are
almost certain to have already been made aware of any such
changes through other media...


My claim that the information for each Bundesland was not
likely to change, could be an untruth.  I've seen mention
of additional frequency changes that were unknown to me,
in addition to vacating VHF DVB-T frequencies to make
available more DAB/DMB/DVB-T2 multiplexes nationally and
regionally.


Apparently Bundesland B-W will not only start two more
ARD/SWR multiplexes in Bad Mergentheim at a lower power
than the other transmitter sites, but will also start a
handful of other lower power sort-of-filler sites,
apparently not coordinated with ZDF.  (May be R-P; my
geography is poor).  And there should also be some sort
of pilot or comparable introduction of a Private MUX in
Stuttgart, quite possibly incompatible with existing
practice throughout Germany (may be use of MPEG-4 video,
or perhaps DVB-T2, or maybe encryption)...



> case you need to mark the individual transmitters). Actually I don't
> care about the arrangement, as long as there are machine-implementable
> rules for the update.

Of course, first of all, I need to get off my lazy butt
and actually start sorting the info you've compiled into
something that will help me get an overview.  Say, for
Bayern, which, from the Bayerischer Rundfunk perspective,
is divided into North (Franken) and South (also with good
beer); to which are added a few Privates in scattered
areas, partly using the same frequencies, though widely
spaced...

As a tradeoff, it could possibly be that some Bundesland
files could be merged into a super-region -- notably the
NDR and mdr regions, though this is pure speculation as I
haven't rearranged any files to imbed them in my brain,
and is only suggested at by the Bremen/Bremerhaven union.
Talk is cheap.


> >> They shouldn't be too excessive,
> 
> I meant the number of transmitters, not the size of the file.

Ah, fine, fine.  As a comparison, I'll offer Helvetia.
The last list of DVB-T transmitters in service I bothered
to download includes some 25 pages, each with around 20
or so listed sites, for that small land.  No way would
I consider attempting to list these -- or even those
for a particular language region or SFN part thereof, in
a scanfile.


> > I just updated overnight, and de-Leipzig no longer exists!
> > Aieee!@  Good thing I made a backup copy of that directory
> > before I updated
> 
> hg has a good memory as well :)

At my age, it's hard to unlearn the convenience of such
advanced tools as `grep' and `less' on simple foo,v text
files (and Attic directories) to trace a file through
time.  However, you're right -- I do believe that I had
problems with `git' on renamed or obsolete files, and
subversion appears hopeless for anything but remaining
up-to-date offline, though I have enough SOCKS and https
problems with that, so that I'm no longer bothered...

Like they say, I learn something new every day.  Pity
that most days it's the same thing I learned on several
previous occasions, when not each day the past week...



Anyway, let this be a fore-warning that you will be
likely to need to update the files for various Laender
a few times this year to keep up-to-date -- and that is
not to include changes to MUX contents (renaming one
ZDF digital channel, or changes in Private Muxen).

So I'm off to the Bundesnetzagentur to see if I can
get accurate info about upcoming changes and allocations,
though I believe this source will be more suitable for
planning, than to generate up-to-the-minute scanfiles.


barry bouwsma