Re: [linux-dvb] Most stable DVB-S2 PCI Card?

Re: [linux-dvb] Most stable DVB-S2 PCI Card?

[Niels Wagenaar]

Op Vr, 22 mei, 2009 19:23, schreef Bob Ingraham:
> Hello,
>
> What is the most stable DVB-S2 PCI card?
>
> -- SNIP --

In short, the Hauppauge NOVA-HD-S2 is the one to buy. Yes, it's somewhat
more expensive but it's the best DVB-S2 based PCI card concerning
stability and usability with for example VDR.

Regards,

Niels Wagenaar

Re: [linux-dvb] Most stable DVB-S2 PCI Card?

[Manu Abraham]

On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 9:32 PM, Niels Wagenaar <n.wagenaar@xs4all.nl> wrote:
> Op Vr, 22 mei, 2009 19:23, schreef Bob Ingraham:
>> Hello,
>>
>> What is the most stable DVB-S2 PCI card?
>>
>> -- SNIP --
>
> In short, the Hauppauge NOVA-HD-S2 is the one to buy. Yes, it's somewhat
> more expensive but it's the best DVB-S2 based PCI card concerning
> stability and usability with for example VDR.


Unfortunately, the Nova HD-S2 won't support any DVB-S2 stream with
symbol rates > 30 MSPS, also it supports only DVB-S2 NBC mode
of operation, being based on an older generation demodulator.

Re: [linux-dvb] Most stable DVB-S2 PCI Card?

[Goga777]

> >> What is the most stable DVB-S2 PCI card?

I use hvr4000 without any problem.

> > In short, the Hauppauge NOVA-HD-S2 is the one to buy. Yes, it's somewhat
> > more expensive but it's the best DVB-S2 based PCI card concerning
> > stability and usability with for example VDR.
> 
> 
> Unfortunately, the Nova HD-S2 won't support any DVB-S2 stream with
> symbol rates > 30 MSPS, also it supports only DVB-S2 NBC mode

is there any dvb-s2 channels with sr > 30 msps ??

> of operation, being based on an older generation demodulator.

what about quality indicators - snr and ber in your drivers ? do they work correctly ?

Goga

Re: [linux-dvb] Most stable DVB-S2 PCI Card?

[Manu Abraham]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 1797 bytes --]

On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 11:42 PM, Goga777 <goga777@bk.ru> wrote:
>> >> What is the most stable DVB-S2 PCI card?
>
> I use hvr4000 without any problem.


Yes, no issues. Just that it is based a Generation 1 demodulator which
are limited in capabilities even for a Generation 1 demodulator. Also that the
statistics are just home made empirical values, rather than real ones.


>> > In short, the Hauppauge NOVA-HD-S2 is the one to buy. Yes, it's somewhat
>> > more expensive but it's the best DVB-S2 based PCI card concerning
>> > stability and usability with for example VDR.
>>
>>
>> Unfortunately, the Nova HD-S2 won't support any DVB-S2 stream with
>> symbol rates > 30 MSPS, also it supports only DVB-S2 NBC mode
>
> is there any dvb-s2 channels with sr > 30 msps ??



Of course, Generation 2 transmissions there are quite a lot of new things.
There are are some broadcasts on Intelsat 903 with 45 MSPS.
That's what i know for now, There could be more though.

There will be more of it, as broadcaster goes the 2nd generation path, as
well as broadcasters who don't want PC users to capture the stream on
Home PC's. (Till vendors come up with new hardware to do that)



>> of operation, being based on an older generation demodulator.
>
> what about quality indicators - snr and ber in your drivers ? do they work correctly ?

Yes, they do, currently it is on a dBm/10 scale.

(The statistics on the Nova HD are just crude just based on empirical
home tests,
not real statistics though.)

If you need statistics normalized to the current API (TT S2 1600),
attached is a
patch that fixes STR and SNR calculation and normalizes the value into the
0..0xFFFF range.

If you find any issues with the driver, please do report it over here.
Currently haven't
seen any issues by any of the testers.

[-- Attachment #2: stv090x-str_snr-fixes.diff --]
[-- Type: text/x-diff, Size: 3739 bytes --]

diff -r b301def35098 linux/drivers/media/dvb/frontends/stv090x.c
--- a/linux/drivers/media/dvb/frontends/stv090x.c	Thu May 21 17:18:15 2009 +0200
+++ b/linux/drivers/media/dvb/frontends/stv090x.c	Thu May 21 23:22:28 2009 +0200
@@ -4227,14 +4227,10 @@
 	int res = 0;
 	int min = 0, med;
 
-	if (val < tab[min].read)
-		res = tab[min].real;
-	else if (val >= tab[max].read)
-		res = tab[max].real;
-	else {
+	if ((val >= tab[min].read && val < tab[max].read) || (val >= tab[max].read && val < tab[min].read)) {
 		while ((max - min) > 1) {
 			med = (max + min) / 2;
-			if (val >= tab[min].read && val < tab[med].read)
+			if ((val >= tab[min].read && val < tab[med].read) || (val >= tab[med].read && val < tab[min].read))
 				max = med;
 			else
 				min = med;
@@ -4243,6 +4239,18 @@
 		       (tab[max].real - tab[min].real) /
 		       (tab[max].read - tab[min].read)) +
 			tab[min].real;
+	} else {
+		if (tab[min].read < tab[max].read) {
+			if (val < tab[min].read)
+				res = tab[min].real;
+			else if (val >= tab[max].read)
+				res = tab[max].real;
+		} else {
+			if (val >= tab[min].read)
+				res = tab[min].real;
+			else if (val < tab[max].read)
+				res = tab[max].real;
+		}
 	}
 
 	return res;
@@ -4252,16 +4260,21 @@
 {
 	struct stv090x_state *state = fe->demodulator_priv;
 	u32 reg;
-	s32 agc;
+	s32 agc_0, agc_1, agc;
+	s32 str;
 
 	reg = STV090x_READ_DEMOD(state, AGCIQIN1);
-	agc = STV090x_GETFIELD_Px(reg, AGCIQ_VALUE_FIELD);
-
-	*strength = stv090x_table_lookup(stv090x_rf_tab, ARRAY_SIZE(stv090x_rf_tab) - 1, agc);
+	agc_1 = STV090x_GETFIELD_Px(reg, AGCIQ_VALUE_FIELD);
+	reg = STV090x_READ_DEMOD(state, AGCIQIN0);
+	agc_0 = STV090x_GETFIELD_Px(reg, AGCIQ_VALUE_FIELD);
+	agc = MAKEWORD16(agc_1, agc_0);
+
+	str = stv090x_table_lookup(stv090x_rf_tab, ARRAY_SIZE(stv090x_rf_tab) - 1, agc);
 	if (agc > stv090x_rf_tab[0].read)
-		*strength = 5;
+		str = 0;
 	else if (agc < stv090x_rf_tab[ARRAY_SIZE(stv090x_rf_tab) - 1].read)
-		*strength = -100;
+		str = -100;
+	*strength = (str + 100) * 0xFFFF / 100;
 
 	return 0;
 }
@@ -4272,6 +4285,7 @@
 	u32 reg_0, reg_1, reg, i;
 	s32 val_0, val_1, val = 0;
 	u8 lock_f;
+	s32 snr;
 
 	switch (state->delsys) {
 	case STV090x_DVBS2:
@@ -4283,14 +4297,13 @@
 				reg_1 = STV090x_READ_DEMOD(state, NNOSPLHT1);
 				val_1 = STV090x_GETFIELD_Px(reg_1, NOSPLHT_NORMED_FIELD);
 				reg_0 = STV090x_READ_DEMOD(state, NNOSPLHT0);
-				val_0 = STV090x_GETFIELD_Px(reg_1, NOSPLHT_NORMED_FIELD);
+				val_0 = STV090x_GETFIELD_Px(reg_0, NOSPLHT_NORMED_FIELD);
 				val  += MAKEWORD16(val_1, val_0);
 				msleep(1);
 			}
 			val /= 16;
-			*cnr = stv090x_table_lookup(stv090x_s2cn_tab, ARRAY_SIZE(stv090x_s2cn_tab) - 1, val);
-			if (val < stv090x_s2cn_tab[ARRAY_SIZE(stv090x_s2cn_tab) - 1].read)
-				*cnr = 1000;
+			snr = stv090x_table_lookup(stv090x_s2cn_tab, ARRAY_SIZE(stv090x_s2cn_tab) - 1, val);
+			*cnr = snr * 0xFFFF / stv090x_s2cn_tab[ARRAY_SIZE(stv090x_s2cn_tab) - 1].real;
 		}
 		break;
 
@@ -4304,14 +4317,13 @@
 				reg_1 = STV090x_READ_DEMOD(state, NOSDATAT1);
 				val_1 = STV090x_GETFIELD_Px(reg_1, NOSDATAT_UNNORMED_FIELD);
 				reg_0 = STV090x_READ_DEMOD(state, NOSDATAT0);
-				val_0 = STV090x_GETFIELD_Px(reg_1, NOSDATAT_UNNORMED_FIELD);
+				val_0 = STV090x_GETFIELD_Px(reg_0, NOSDATAT_UNNORMED_FIELD);
 				val  += MAKEWORD16(val_1, val_0);
 				msleep(1);
 			}
 			val /= 16;
-			*cnr = stv090x_table_lookup(stv090x_s1cn_tab, ARRAY_SIZE(stv090x_s1cn_tab) - 1, val);
-			if (val < stv090x_s2cn_tab[ARRAY_SIZE(stv090x_s1cn_tab) - 1].read)
-				*cnr = 1000;
+			snr = stv090x_table_lookup(stv090x_s1cn_tab, ARRAY_SIZE(stv090x_s1cn_tab) - 1, val);
+			*cnr = snr * 0xFFFF / stv090x_s1cn_tab[ARRAY_SIZE(stv090x_s1cn_tab) - 1].real;
 		}
 		break;
 	default:

Re: [linux-dvb] Most stable DVB-S2 PCI Card?

[Manu Abraham]

On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 1:30 AM, David Lister <foceni@gmail.com> wrote:
> Manu Abraham wrote:
>
> On Fri, May 22, 2009 at 11:42 PM, Goga777 <goga777@bk.ru> wrote:
>
>
> Unfortunately, the Nova HD-S2 won't support any DVB-S2 stream with
> symbol rates > 30 MSPS, also it supports only DVB-S2 NBC mode
>
>
> is there any dvb-s2 channels with sr > 30 msps ??
>
>
> Of course, Generation 2 transmissions there are quite a lot of new things.
> There are are some broadcasts on Intelsat 903 with 45 MSPS.
> That's what i know for now, There could be more though.
>
>
>
> Actually, there are many DVB-S2 cards supporting 45 MS/s, even TeVii S460
> can do 2-45 MS/s. I spoke with a fellow TeVii owner, who confirmed the card
> is working with a 45 MS/s transponder on Express AM2 without *any* issues.
> All this aside, there aren't any transponders with higher rates than this
> and there won't be for many years. Who knows how stable would TT even be
> with such rates? For now, it's irrelevant anyway. I have no problem
> upgrading to a new card in 3-4 years, providing there will be a stable,
> fully supported card for Linux with as many satisfied owners as e.g. Nova S2
> HD has.

You are talking about a 45 MSPS DVB-S stream on a DVB-S2 demodulator,
while i was talking about a 45 MSPS DVB-S2 stream on a DVB-S2 demodulator.

Big difference !

Re: [linux-dvb] Most stable DVB-S2 PCI Card?

[David Lister]

Manu Abraham wrote:
> On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 1:30 AM, David Lister <foceni@gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> Actually, there are many DVB-S2 cards supporting 45 MS/s, even TeVii S460
>> can do 2-45 MS/s. I spoke with a fellow TeVii owner, who confirmed the card
>> is working with a 45 MS/s transponder on Express AM2 without *any* issues.
>> All this aside, there aren't any transponders with higher rates than this
>> and there won't be for many years. Who knows how stable would TT even be
>> with such rates? For now, it's irrelevant anyway. I have no problem
>> upgrading to a new card in 3-4 years, providing there will be a stable,
>> fully supported card for Linux with as many satisfied owners as e.g. Nova S2
>> HD has.
>>     
>
> You are talking about a 45 MSPS DVB-S stream on a DVB-S2 demodulator,
> while i was talking about a 45 MSPS DVB-S2 stream on a DVB-S2 demodulator.
>
> Big difference !
>   

This point is moot in the first place, mate. Especially in USA (original
poster), where it'll take twice the time to reach those rates on DVB-S2.
All current 45 MS/s transponders are QPSK, at least as far as I can
tell. Even if that "technology preview" 8PSK transponder of yours
existed (somewhere above Asia), it's hardly a reason to buy
Linux-unstable cards in EU or USA. Especially considering OP's quest for
super-stable HW. HD is pretty much beginning and none of it goes over 30
MS/p. Why hurry, I ask? In 2-3 years time, when your driver is finished
and stable, we'll all happily switch to "generation 2" HW (your term),
if need be. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against TT, it's just
more sensible to go with proven HW.

On a different note, I'm quite grateful for your development efforts and
wish you success & best of luck. If only there were more people
dedicated as you are. Seriously. Keep it up!

-- 
Dave

Re: [linux-dvb] Most stable DVB-S2 PCI Card?

[Manu Abraham]

On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 9:51 AM, David Lister <foceni@gmail.com> wrote:
> Manu Abraham wrote:
>> On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 1:30 AM, David Lister <foceni@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Actually, there are many DVB-S2 cards supporting 45 MS/s, even TeVii S460
>>> can do 2-45 MS/s. I spoke with a fellow TeVii owner, who confirmed the card
>>> is working with a 45 MS/s transponder on Express AM2 without *any* issues.
>>> All this aside, there aren't any transponders with higher rates than this
>>> and there won't be for many years. Who knows how stable would TT even be
>>> with such rates? For now, it's irrelevant anyway. I have no problem
>>> upgrading to a new card in 3-4 years, providing there will be a stable,
>>> fully supported card for Linux with as many satisfied owners as e.g. Nova S2
>>> HD has.
>>>
>>
>> You are talking about a 45 MSPS DVB-S stream on a DVB-S2 demodulator,
>> while i was talking about a 45 MSPS DVB-S2 stream on a DVB-S2 demodulator.
>>
>> Big difference !
>>
>
> This point is moot in the first place, mate. Especially in USA (original
> poster), where it'll take twice the time to reach those rates on DVB-S2.
> All current 45 MS/s transponders are QPSK, at least as far as I can
> tell. Even if that "technology preview" 8PSK transponder of yours
> existed (somewhere above Asia), it's hardly a reason to buy
> Linux-unstable cards in EU or USA.


Have you tried the card, to state that it is unstable ? I would like
to know the basis
for your comments to state that it is unstable.


> Especially considering OP's quest for
> super-stable HW. HD is pretty much beginning and none of it goes over 30
> MS/p. Why hurry, I ask? In 2-3 years time, when your driver is finished
> and stable, we'll all happily switch to "generation 2" HW (your term),
> if need be. Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against TT,

Re: [linux-dvb] Most stable DVB-S2 PCI Card?

[David Lister]

Manu Abraham wrote:
> On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 9:51 AM, David Lister <foceni@gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> This point is moot in the first place, mate. Especially in USA (original
>> poster), where it'll take twice the time to reach those rates on DVB-S2.
>> All current 45 MS/s transponders are QPSK, at least as far as I can
>> tell. Even if that "technology preview" 8PSK transponder of yours
>> existed (somewhere above Asia), it's hardly a reason to buy
>> Linux-unstable cards in EU or USA.
>>     
> Have you tried the card, to state that it is unstable ? I would like
> to know the basis
> for your comments to state that it is unstable.
>   

I was not talking specifically about TT-1600, but with your drivers
being relatively young, not in wide use, and you being the only
developer (right?), it's common sense to assume that they are not as
stable as e.g. cx88. Also considering the fact that none of these
drivers even report signal stats properly. Then, of course, there's my
recent experience with your SkyStar HD2 driver. :) You have to
understand that me, in this case just a common user, do not wish to
invest into a product with an unfinished driver. If it was for me, I
wouldn't really care, but with the whole family using the HTPC...

I didn't want to write a long mail, but here goes:

The TechnoTrend company, as of Februay 2009, doesn't exists any more.
*It is bankrupt*. First, its owner Novabase sold as many of its shares
as it could in 2007, in hope that the proceeds would allow TechnoTrend
to get back on track. No such luck. A few months back this year, the
company was finally dumped and sold as a whole to some German telco
company in the Kathrein Group for liquidation, because of the tremendous
drop in it's market value and forthcoming bankruptcy. This might also be
of some interest to prospective buyers of it's former products. :) I
don't want to search for all the press releases, but you can verify this
claim here:
http://www.euronext.com/fic/000/044/480/444806.pdf

Nevertheless, I tried to get the data-sheet for this dead product from
their closed down & discontinued sites. Google cache is a great thing, I
managed to find TechnoTrend's S2-1600 data-sheet PDF:
http://www.pt.technotrend.com/Dokumente/87/Manuals_PC/specs_eng/TechSpec_S2-1600_engl.pdf

As much as I'd like to believe your "S2-1600 supports 63 MS/s", I cannot
ignore the fact that the manufacturer disagrees with you:
DVB-S: 2 - 45 MS/s
DVB-S2: 10 - 30 MS/s

Pretty standard specs, if you ask me. Obviously, you must have proven
the *manufacturer* wrong by verifying your claim in practice. I just
wonder how you did it, when no existing DVB-S2 transponder uses rates
over 30 MS/s. Wasn't it perhaps just some "dry" testing without any
signal, like gradually raising the HW parameters and sniffing for smoke? :)

That's all I had to say. I know that the TT bankruptcy thing is
irrelevant in a technical discussion, but it is important nonetheless. I
wouldn't recommend TT products, nor SkyStar HD2, which is kinda infamous
on some EU sat forums (not only in connection with Linux).


See you around,
-- 
Dave

Re: [linux-dvb] Most stable DVB-S2 PCI Card?

[Manu Abraham]

On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 2:03 PM, David Lister <foceni@gmail.com> wrote:
> Manu Abraham wrote:
>> On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 9:51 AM, David Lister <foceni@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> This point is moot in the first place, mate. Especially in USA (original
>>> poster), where it'll take twice the time to reach those rates on DVB-S2.
>>> All current 45 MS/s transponders are QPSK, at least as far as I can
>>> tell. Even if that "technology preview" 8PSK transponder of yours
>>> existed (somewhere above Asia), it's hardly a reason to buy
>>> Linux-unstable cards in EU or USA.
>>>
>> Have you tried the card, to state that it is unstable ? I would like
>> to know the basis
>> for your comments to state that it is unstable.
>>
>
> I was not talking specifically about TT-1600, but with your drivers
> being relatively young, not in wide use, and you being the only
> developer (right?), it's common sense to assume that they are not as
> stable as e.g. cx88.


LOL, As stable as CX88, you must be joking. As far as the number of
developers on the card, if you are as capable of reading what you claim,
you can see that from the changelogs, in the main tree itself.

You mean the SAA7146 driver is young ? Hmm.. pretty ignorant comments,
you seem to make. The 7146 is one of the oldest driver that exists.
Exception is bttv which is still older.



> Also considering the fact that none of these
> drivers even report signal stats properly. Then, of course, there's my
> recent experience with your SkyStar HD2 driver. :)


Which card are you talking about ? Your experience with the Skystar HD
driver == USER Error, that's what some people would think.

The mantis driver is a driver which is very much in development. You
should've read it on the ML's itself. It's really sad that you are pretty much
ignorant. A driver which is in development, you expect all sorts of issues.
That's why it is in an external tree.

Now, you managed to get hold of the wrong tree, burned your demodulator,
inspite of me warning users on the ML's many times. So you are still
ignorant on that. You decided to do, what it pleased you. Not my fault.

I guess, you don't understand the term "Development", "Stable" etc either.


The TT S2-1600 support is much different, support for it exist in the mainline
tree, which is verified. The SAA7146 bridge which the S2-1600 is based on,
is the most mature PCI multimedia bridge that exists under Linux.

Also you seem completely ignorant about how Linux development goes on.


> You have to
> understand that me, in this case just a common user, do not wish to
> invest into a product with an unfinished driver. If it was for me, I
> wouldn't really care, but with the whole family using the HTPC...
>
> I didn't want to write a long mail, but here goes:
>
> The TechnoTrend company, as of Februay 2009, doesn't exists any more.
> *It is bankrupt*. First, its owner Novabase sold as many of its shares
> as it could in 2007, in hope that the proceeds would allow TechnoTrend
> to get back on track. No such luck. A few months back this year, the
> company was finally dumped and sold as a whole to some German telco
> company in the Kathrein Group for liquidation, because of the tremendous
> drop in it's market value and forthcoming bankruptcy. This might also be
> of some interest to prospective buyers of it's former products. :) I
> don't want to search for all the press releases, but you can verify this
> claim here:
> http://www.euronext.com/fic/000/044/480/444806.pdf



I don't work for Technotrend, neither have i till now. My opinions are my own.
I don't care about your completely non-technical or trolling posts. Whether
Technotrend is having a new ownership/management is as well nothing of
concern to me.

There seems to be people buying the"dead product" that you claim and hence the
support for it is in.

> Nevertheless, I tried to get the data-sheet for this dead product from
> their closed down & discontinued sites. Google cache is a great thing, I
> managed to find TechnoTrend's S2-1600 data-sheet PDF:
> http://www.pt.technotrend.com/Dokumente/87/Manuals_PC/specs_eng/TechSpec_S2-1600_engl.pdf
>
> As much as I'd like to believe your "S2-1600 supports 63 MS/s", I cannot
> ignore the fact that the manufacturer disagrees with you:
> DVB-S: 2 - 45 MS/s
> DVB-S2: 10 - 30 MS/s



It's not a card manufacturer that do make the chip specifications.
You can look at the STV0903 specification, or the announcement that i
made earlier on the list about the same.

>From the Cut 2.0 chips onwards, The STV0900/903 demodulators do support
45 MSPS officially and unofficially 60 MSPS with 8PSK modulation. Anything
predating Cut 2.0 you don't find on any PC related products.

http://linuxtv.org/hg/v4l-dvb/rev/4882c97b0540


> Pretty standard specs, if you ask me. Obviously, you must have proven
> the *manufacturer* wrong by verifying your claim in practice. I just
> wonder how you did it, when no existing DVB-S2 transponder uses rates
> over 30 MS/s. Wasn't it perhaps just some "dry" testing without any
> signal, like gradually raising the HW parameters and sniffing for smoke? :)


I don't claim manufacturer wrong. In fact you do. You can look at the
official specs
and the support for it.


> That's all I had to say. I know that the TT bankruptcy thing is
> irrelevant in a technical discussion, but it is important nonetheless. I
> wouldn't recommend TT products, nor SkyStar HD2, which is kinda infamous
> on some EU sat forums (not only in connection with Linux).

When you are ignorant about technical aspects, you don't do a
technical discussion.
You seem to be an ignorant troll.

Cya !

Re: [linux-dvb] Most stable DVB-S2 PCI Card?

[David Lister]

Manu Abraham wrote:
> LOL, As stable as CX88, you must be joking. As far as the number of
> developers on the card, if you are as capable of reading what you claim,
> you can see that from the changelogs, in the main tree itself.
>
> You mean the SAA7146 driver is young ? Hmm.. pretty ignorant comments,
> you seem to make. The 7146 is one of the oldest driver that exists.
> Exception is bttv which is still older.
>   
Indeed "LOL", as you say. I do not wish to torment you any longer. :) It
is always sad to see people switch to personal insults, when they run
out of arguments. This wasn't my intention and therefore I'm withdrawing
from this thread with my apologies for making you angry.

Some last replies: I wasn't talking about the number of developers on
cx88, was I? I was talking about your driver and you being its sole
developer; cx88 has the advantage of being proven by time as stable (in
contrast to your *new* TT-1600 support, where things like number of
developers has objective informational value). You also seem to confuse
chips (i.e. the building blocks) and complete products. Is it not true
that your first attempt at S2-1600 support was submited on April 23rd,
2009? You see for me, this is *new*.

>> Also considering the fact that none of these
>> drivers even report signal stats properly. Then, of course, there's my
>> recent experience with your SkyStar HD2 driver. :)
>>     
> Which card are you talking about ? Your experience with the Skystar HD
> driver == USER Error, that's what some people would think.
>
>   
Well, that is what *you* think, because you weren't able to explain why
it didn't work properly. There were some driver difficulties, but what
did you expect when there are at least three different branches of the
driver, all devel:

http://jusst.de/hg/mantis
http://mercurial.intuxication.org//hg//s2-liplianin
http://jusst.de/hg/mantis-v4l

I used the last driver a few hours after it was uploaded (and suggested
on the list), so don't make this a USER issue.

> The mantis driver is a driver which is very much in development. You
> should've read it on the ML's itself. It's really sad that you are pretty much
> ignorant. A driver which is in development, you expect all sorts of issues.
> That's why it is in an external tree.
>   
Oh, but I've read the list before buying the card, just like I've done
for over 10 years for all HW for my Linux setups. Plus the reference
information on the linuxtv.org says the driver is in development for
over 3 years. When you see people discussing just lame & minor details
on the lists and when there's a 3yr old driver, you usually expect no
problems (not many anyway). But this is not my issue - please understand
that I'm not complaining at all, this is just a reply to your previous
statement. It is OT in this argument.

> Now, you managed to get hold of the wrong tree, burned your demodulator,
> inspite of me warning users on the ML's many times. So you are still
> ignorant on that. You decided to do, what it pleased you. Not my fault.
>   
As I wrote above, s2-liplianin was the latest tree available for general
public at the time. My only other option was multiproto. I used
mantis-v4l tree even before it was completely uploaded.

As soon as the new S2API mantis tree was mentioned on the list, I used
it. But most importantly, your only explanation that it still doesn't
work, because I burned my demodulator using the current s2-liplianin
tree is *absolutely* ridiculous. You might work it out with Liplianin
himself, but if you had read my followup, you would know that I
exchanged the card for new samples, had those samples *verified* by
TechniSat (your second and last explanation was that my HW is fake, LOL)
and I used *only* your latest driver. Of course it demonstrated the same
exact issues as previous "burned" (haha) cards.


> I guess, you don't understand the term "Development", "Stable" etc either.
>   
I did not expect everything rosy, I have my share of Linux HW
experiences. I've also written a complete Linux driver for a device I
had, which wasn't supported - that driver is now part of the kernel. So
believe me, not only I know how open source development works, I even
know how kernel driver development works. What I did not expect was
almost total ignorance of my issues by the driver author himself. One
would expect at least some cooperation, I know how hard it is to find
testers of one's code. You offered two explanations why your devel
driver didn't work: the HW is broken or fake. Nice!

In the end, I didn't return the cards because of the driver. I could
live without PWR, SNR monitoring and unstable locks. I gave up, because
even when everything worked, there were two major HW problems (caused by
driver):
1) Card's HW emitted high pitched noise (like old TV's, but louder) as
soon as I got DVB-S2 lock (mantis-v4l)
2) All DVB-S/S2 channels were corrupted, the picture looked as if there
was a weak signal (STB reports 95%!). Intolerable.

Yet, cx88 card on the exact same setup works with no issues rock solid.
The issues were not HW-related after all, when I returned the cards, the
shop had them tested (on Windows I guess) and they worked perfectly. If
you asked me to help you debug or test it, you might fix a big fuck up
in your driver. Could be a newer card revision or whatever.

Well, what do I care, my HTPC is finished and flawless. :)


> The TT S2-1600 support is much different, support for it exist in the mainline
> tree, which is verified. The SAA7146 bridge which the S2-1600 is based on,
> is the most mature PCI multimedia bridge that exists under Linux.
>   
Again the chipset & complete product mixup. Your initial S2-1600 patch
from April 23rd, 2009:
http://www.mail-archive.com/linuxtv-commits@linuxtv.org/msg03924.html

Don't forget we are still talking about recommendation for the most
stable card requested by the OP. This whole discussion happened, because
you were unable to accept that one cannot compare support this young
with what cx88 offers.

> I don't work for Technotrend, neither have i till now. My opinions are my own.
> I don't care about your completely non-technical or trolling posts. Whether
> Technotrend is having a new ownership/management is as well nothing of
> concern to me.
>   
1) I honestly don't know who you work for and I promise I do not care
2) We are not talking about a change of ownership like in the past, but
a complete company liquidation
3) The first trolling in this thread was your latest email. If we are
talking about technical discussions, don't forget that it was you who
brought up personal stuff. All my contributions were directly related to
OP's question, S2-1600 technical specs and driver stability issues.

> There seems to be people buying the"dead product" that you claim and hence the
> support for it is in.
> It's not a card manufacturer that do make the chip specifications.
> You can look at the STV0903 specification, or the announcement that i
> made earlier on the list about the same.
>   
Of course people buy stuff that is on the market; however, that doesn't
mean it is being actively developed or manufactured. In this case, it
isn't and it's presence on the market is limited to the number of cards
produced before the collapse of TechnoTrend.

> From the Cut 2.0 chips onwards, The STV0900/903 demodulators do support
> 45 MSPS officially and unofficially 60 MSPS with 8PSK modulation. Anything
> predating Cut 2.0 you don't find on any PC related products.
>
> http://linuxtv.org/hg/v4l-dvb/rev/4882c97b0540
>   
This is true, but do you know how the chips are integrated in TT-1600.
Final consumer product using certain chipsets usually does miss some
features or parameter ranges of the integrated chips (especially SoC
chips). Have you ever seen a PC motherboard? Well, now that you know how
I meant what I said, it is perhaps time to acknowledge that the *card*
manufacturer usually knows what their product is capable of. You know,
they being the people who actually design all the circuitry on the
PCB... I doubt TT would specify worse parameters that its product is
capable of. Especially if, as you say, they are the result of a new
technology, which would give them the edge over all the competitors. So,
TT-1600 was apparently designed to support 30 MS/s 8PSK without
stability issues or damage to the HW.


Regards,

-- 
Dave

Re: [linux-dvb] Most stable DVB-S2 PCI Card?

[Manu Abraham]

> As soon as the new S2API mantis tree was mentioned on the list, I used it.
> But most importantly, your only explanation that it still doesn't work,
> because I burned my demodulator using the current s2-liplianin tree is
> *absolutely* ridiculous. You might work it out with Liplianin himself,


No, you happened to be a complete idiot inspite of doing sane things,
being repeatedly warned with posts on the Mailing List. If you can't read,
you suffer from it. s2-liplianin was created with some cause for promoting
the hardware what you were trying to promote. So definitely it is that way.
I can't help that you ran arbitrary code on your computer  and got screwed.


> I did not expect everything rosy, I have my share of Linux HW experiences.
> I've also written a complete Linux driver for a device I had, which wasn't
> supported - that driver is now part of the kernel. So believe me, not only I
> know how open source development works, I even know how kernel driver
> development works.


half baked one's are the usual problematic one's. There used to be one crying
loud over documentation patches.



> This is true, but do you know how the chips are integrated in TT-1600. Final
> consumer product using certain chipsets usually does miss some features or
> parameter ranges of the integrated chips (especially SoC chips). Have you
> ever seen a PC motherboard? Well, now that you know how I meant what I said,
> it is perhaps time to acknowledge that the *card* manufacturer usually knows
> what their product is capable of. You know, they being the people who
> actually design all the circuitry on the PCB...


First of all i had completely no clue on it. That's why i was able to
write a driver for it.
(with sarcasm)
Mate you have no clue. The S2-1600 is based on a reference design and hence.
You have a lot to understand. I don't give it a damn which way to take
it to heart.


Manu

Re: [linux-dvb] Most stable DVB-S2 PCI Card?

[Andreas Regel]

David Lister schrieb:
> I didn't want to write a long mail, but here goes:
> 
> The TechnoTrend company, as of Februay 2009, doesn't exists any more.
> *It is bankrupt*. First, its owner Novabase sold as many of its shares
> as it could in 2007, in hope that the proceeds would allow TechnoTrend
> to get back on track. No such luck. A few months back this year, the
> company was finally dumped and sold as a whole to some German telco
> company in the Kathrein Group for liquidation, because of the tremendous
> drop in it's market value and forthcoming bankruptcy. This might also be
> of some interest to prospective buyers of it's former products. :) I
> don't want to search for all the press releases, but you can verify this
> claim here:
> http://www.euronext.com/fic/000/044/480/444806.pdf

As written there the Görler Telekom bought the business and stock of TT, 
that includes the brand name, all products and most of the developers. 
They formed a new Company called TechnoTrend Görler GmbH, that will 
continue development, production and sales.

See here: http://www.kathrein.de//en/press/cont/texte2009/pi0910.htm

Even if not explicitely mentioned there, PC products are included in 
that deal.

New web site is still under construction: http://www.ttgoerler.de/

Regards
Andreas

Re: [linux-dvb] Most stable DVB-S2 PCI Card?

[David Lister]

Andreas Regel wrote:
> David Lister schrieb:
>> I didn't want to write a long mail, but here goes:
>>
>> The TechnoTrend company, as of Februay 2009, doesn't exists any more.
>> *It is bankrupt*. First, its owner Novabase sold as many of its shares
>> as it could in 2007, in hope that the proceeds would allow TechnoTrend
>> to get back on track. No such luck. A few months back this year, the
>> company was finally dumped and sold as a whole to some German telco
>> company in the Kathrein Group for liquidation, because of the tremendous
>> drop in it's market value and forthcoming bankruptcy. This might also be
>> of some interest to prospective buyers of it's former products. :) I
>> don't want to search for all the press releases, but you can verify this
>> claim here:
>> http://www.euronext.com/fic/000/044/480/444806.pdf
>
> As written there the Görler Telekom bought the business and stock of
> TT, that includes the brand name, all products and most of the
> developers. They formed a new Company called TechnoTrend Görler GmbH,
> that will continue development, production and sales.
>
> See here: http://www.kathrein.de//en/press/cont/texte2009/pi0910.htm
>
> Even if not explicitely mentioned there, PC products are included in
> that deal.
>
> New web site is still under construction: http://www.ttgoerler.de/
>
That is good news, thanks for the update! Everything falling apart last
time I checked was a rather disturbing experience, even though I've
never been their greatest fan. There's just a handful of companies
making usable PC tuners and TT was one of the bigger ones. If KG are
serious, I am quite relieved. Kathrein not only has extensive know-how
and capital, it seems to like Linux. We might even see official Linux
support for their new products. That would be cool! :) I'd definitely
support such a manufacturer.

*OT* I just remembered in connection with Linux DVB-S2 cards: in case
some of you also heard about that new dual DVB-S2-CI tuner for PC's with
full Linux support, you can forget about it. Or at least I can. When I
pre-ordered directly from the Russian manufacturer (NetUP), they said
the price for one would be $1000. What a rip-off...

-- 
Dave

Re: [linux-dvb] Most stable DVB-S2 PCI Card?

[Manu Abraham]

On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 10:16 PM, David Lister <foceni@gmail.com> wrote:
> Andreas Regel wrote:
>> David Lister schrieb:
>>> I didn't want to write a long mail, but here goes:
>>>
>>> The TechnoTrend company, as of Februay 2009, doesn't exists any more.
>>> *It is bankrupt*. First, its owner Novabase sold as many of its shares
>>> as it could in 2007, in hope that the proceeds would allow TechnoTrend
>>> to get back on track. No such luck. A few months back this year, the
>>> company was finally dumped and sold as a whole to some German telco
>>> company in the Kathrein Group for liquidation, because of the tremendous
>>> drop in it's market value and forthcoming bankruptcy. This might also be
>>> of some interest to prospective buyers of it's former products. :) I
>>> don't want to search for all the press releases, but you can verify this
>>> claim here:
>>> http://www.euronext.com/fic/000/044/480/444806.pdf
>>
>> As written there the Görler Telekom bought the business and stock of
>> TT, that includes the brand name, all products and most of the
>> developers. They formed a new Company called TechnoTrend Görler GmbH,
>> that will continue development, production and sales.
>>
>> See here: http://www.kathrein.de//en/press/cont/texte2009/pi0910.htm
>>
>> Even if not explicitely mentioned there, PC products are included in
>> that deal.
>>
>> New web site is still under construction: http://www.ttgoerler.de/
>>
> That is good news, thanks for the update! Everything falling apart last
> time I checked was a rather disturbing experience, even though I've
> never been their greatest fan. There's just a handful of companies
> making usable PC tuners and TT was one of the bigger ones. If KG are
> serious, I am quite relieved. Kathrein not only has extensive know-how
> and capital, it seems to like Linux. We might even see official Linux
> support for their new products. That would be cool! :) I'd definitely
> support such a manufacturer.
>
> *OT* I just remembered in connection with Linux DVB-S2 cards: in case
> some of you also heard about that new dual DVB-S2-CI tuner for PC's with
> full Linux support, you can forget about it. Or at least I can. When I
> pre-ordered directly from the Russian manufacturer (NetUP), they said
> the price for one would be $1000. What a rip-off...

Indeed it is.

Maybe you will get a DVB card with dual DVB-S2 and CI with hardware
H.264 decoder and HDMI out for a better deal. You might need to wait for
the hardware to be available though.

Re: [linux-dvb] Most stable DVB-S2 PCI Card?

[David Lister]

Manu Abraham wrote:
> On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 10:16 PM, David Lister <foceni@gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> *OT* I just remembered in connection with Linux DVB-S2 cards: in case
>> some of you also heard about that new dual DVB-S2-CI tuner for PC's with
>> full Linux support, you can forget about it. Or at least I can. When I
>> pre-ordered directly from the Russian manufacturer (NetUP), they said
>> the price for one would be $1000. What a rip-off...
>>     
>
> Indeed it is.
>
> Maybe you will get a DVB card with dual DVB-S2 and CI with hardware
> H.264 decoder and HDMI out for a better deal. You might need to wait for
> the hardware to be available though.
>   

You appear to have different information. Their site and mail
announcements don't mention any H.264 decoder, nor HDMI out. Even the
photo says otherwise. This is the one I mean:
http://www.netup.tv/en-EN/dual_dvb-s2-ci_card.php

If what you say was true, (I wish it would), if it weren't a "budget"
card, I wouldn't call it a rip-off -- it would be a pretty neat piece of
HW. Still a bit pricey, but within limits. Unfortunately, from what I've
gathered from the site, announcements and mails with the manufacturer,
it is just a dual budget card. If so, it is a rip-off. :)

-- 
Dave

Re: [linux-dvb] Most stable DVB-S2 PCI Card?

[VDR User]

Whoever decided on a $1000 price point for a dual tuner dvb-s2 card
needs to be slapped, then fired.  That's completely absurd.  Period.

Re : [linux-dvb] Most stable DVB-S2 PCI Card?

[Manu]

Le 23/05/2009 01:51:15, David Lister a écrit :
> Manu Abraham wrote:
> > On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 1:30 AM, David Lister <foceni@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >   
> >> Actually, there are many DVB-S2 cards supporting 45 MS/s, even
> TeVii S460
> >> can do 2-45 MS/s. I spoke with a fellow TeVii owner, who confirmed
> the card
> >> is working with a 45 MS/s transponder on Express AM2 without *any*
> issues.
> >> All this aside, there aren't any transponders with higher rates
> than this
> >> and there won't be for many years. Who knows how stable would TT
> even be
> >> with such rates? For now, it's irrelevant anyway. I have no 
> problem
> >> upgrading to a new card in 3-4 years, providing there will be a
> stable,
> >> fully supported card for Linux with as many satisfied owners as
> e.g. Nova S2
> >> HD has.
> >>     
> >
> > You are talking about a 45 MSPS DVB-S stream on a DVB-S2
> demodulator,
> > while i was talking about a 45 MSPS DVB-S2 stream on a DVB-S2
> demodulator.
> >
> > Big difference !
> >   
> 
> This point is moot in the first place, mate. Especially in USA
> (original
> poster), where it'll take twice the time to reach those rates on
> DVB-S2.
> All current 45 MS/s transponders are QPSK, at least as far as I can
> tell. Even if that "technology preview" 8PSK transponder of yours
> existed (somewhere above Asia), it's hardly a reason to buy
> Linux-unstable cards in EU or USA. Especially considering OP's quest

Just a quick note: Manu is right at least here in the French Caribbean 
Islands where, under the pretext of streaming more HD channels, 
CanalSat Caraibes (which is strongly affiliated with Canal+ France) is 
broadcasting DVB-S2 QPSK 45 MSPS. People are really upset about it 
because it basically boils down to lock everybody into renting their 
decoder.
So yes, some people (read me ;-) desperately needs DVB-S2 HW supporting 
high SPS rates (plus I need CI also). For now I dont see this rare 
bird! If someone knows one with good linux driver...
Bye
Emmanuel

Re: Re : [linux-dvb] Most stable DVB-S2 PCI Card?

[David Lister]

Manu wrote:
> Le 23/05/2009 01:51:15, David Lister a écrit :
>   
>> Manu Abraham wrote:
>>     
>>> On Sat, May 23, 2009 at 1:30 AM, David Lister <foceni@gmail.com>
>>>       
>> wrote:
>>     
>>>   
>>>       
>>>> Actually, there are many DVB-S2 cards supporting 45 MS/s, even
>>>>         
>> TeVii S460
>>     
>>>> can do 2-45 MS/s. I spoke with a fellow TeVii owner, who confirmed
>>>>         
>> the card
>>     
>>>> is working with a 45 MS/s transponder on Express AM2 without *any*
>>>>         
>> issues.
>>     
>>>> All this aside, there aren't any transponders with higher rates
>>>>         
>> than this
>>     
>>>> and there won't be for many years. Who knows how stable would TT
>>>>         
>> even be
>>     
>>>> with such rates? For now, it's irrelevant anyway. I have no 
>>>>         
>> problem
>>     
>>>> upgrading to a new card in 3-4 years, providing there will be a
>>>>         
>> stable,
>>     
>>>> fully supported card for Linux with as many satisfied owners as
>>>>         
>> e.g. Nova S2
>>     
>>>> HD has.
>>>>     
>>>>         
>>> You are talking about a 45 MSPS DVB-S stream on a DVB-S2
>>>       
>> demodulator,
>>     
>>> while i was talking about a 45 MSPS DVB-S2 stream on a DVB-S2
>>>       
>> demodulator.
>>     
>>> Big difference !
>>>   
>>>       
>> This point is moot in the first place, mate. Especially in USA
>> (original
>> poster), where it'll take twice the time to reach those rates on
>> DVB-S2.
>> All current 45 MS/s transponders are QPSK, at least as far as I can
>> tell. Even if that "technology preview" 8PSK transponder of yours
>> existed (somewhere above Asia), it's hardly a reason to buy
>> Linux-unstable cards in EU or USA. Especially considering OP's quest
>>     
>
> Just a quick note: Manu is right at least here in the French Caribbean 
> Islands where, under the pretext of streaming more HD channels, 
> CanalSat Caraibes (which is strongly affiliated with Canal+ France) is 
> broadcasting DVB-S2 QPSK 45 MSPS. People are really upset about it 
> because it basically boils down to lock everybody into renting their 
> decoder.
> So yes, some people (read me ;-) desperately needs DVB-S2 HW supporting 
> high SPS rates (plus I need CI also). For now I dont see this rare 
> bird! If someone knows one with good linux driver...
>   
Yes, that would be the Intelsat 903 we talked about. Btw, you sure it's
QPSK? If so, it's not S2, but S. :) Never mind that anyway, dear, our
discussion wasn't about existence or non-existence of high rate 8PSK
signals. In the beginning of the thread we established that there are
places on Earth with these signals (your bird seems the only one, but
there may be more!). The question was their relevance for typical US /
EU citizens *now*. There's no doubt in my mind that higher rates will
become used eventually, perhaps sooner that we think even if it may seem
unlikely - a year, two? Even during this "short time", I'll be using
standard HW which has been good enough for everybody for years and when
the time comes, there will be new HW to choose from - perhaps even
better than TT-1600. :) This is my point, the rest are just reactions to
Manu.


Btw, *Manu*, I just read your on-line resume. You're in Bangalore,
right? Funny thing, I'm in India too - for half a year already, but I'll
be leaving soon. It's business crap as usual, but India for the first
time. I kinda like it here. Destinations without proper engineers call
upon us, the European *Jedi* of the HA/HP computing, to build & install
IBM supercomputers for them and design new infrastructures. :o) If you
want to come and smash my face with a hammer, feel free to visit me in
Koregaon Park. :o)


-- 
Dave