Please advise: 4channel capture device with HW compression for Linux based DVR

Please advise: 4channel capture device with HW compression for Linux based DVR

[fsulima]

Hi all.

I'm looking for components to build 4 channel Linux-based DVR solution 
exploiting hardware compression.
Although I found some such boards, they do not appear to be supported 
under Linux.

Please advise.

WBR,
F S.

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Re: Please advise: 4channel capture device with HW compression for Linux based DVR

[Jackson Yee]

If you're looking for a hardware card, the guys at bluecherry have
upcoming cards which should fit your needs quite nicely:

http://store.bluecherry.net/category_s/115.htm

For a four camera solution though, you can do real-time x264 encode
with a cheap dual-core processor. There's no need to buy the more
expensive hardware encoding cards unless you go for a 8 or 16 channel
solutions.

Regards,
Jackson Yee
The Possum Company
540-818-4079
me@gotpossum.com

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 7:09 AM, fsulima<fsulima@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all.
>
> I'm looking for components to build 4 channel Linux-based DVR solution
> exploiting hardware compression.
> Although I found some such boards, they do not appear to be supported under
> Linux.
>
> Please advise.
>
> WBR,
> F S.

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Re: Please advise: 4channel capture device with HW compression for Linux based DVR

[fsulima]

Hi Jackson.

Thanks for the answer.
The first thing I realized when I learned how to use search on the 
mailing list was that this question is very common so I was already 
preparing to shot myself expecting the hear the advice to learn to use 
search. :) It's a shame.
Ok, back to the point...

The problem here is that I have a little unconventional hardware: it is 
a small form factor Intel D945GCLF2D mini-ITX Motherboard + 
integrated Intel Atom 330 2core 1.6Ghz. I have doubts about it's ability 
to encode 4 channels of D1, besides Intel advertises Atom's performance 
as video encoder: 
http://www.intel.com/design/intarch/applnots/DSS_Appnote_r5.pdf.
I really don't want to setup another device specifically for DVR, 
especially with large form factor. Installing cheap capture device w/o 
h/w compression sounds like a great option, but I'd really like to be 
sure that Atom 330 is capable enough for this. Is there any expertise on 
this?

Regards,
F S

Jackson Yee wrote:
> If you're looking for a hardware card, the guys at bluecherry have
> upcoming cards which should fit your needs quite nicely:
>
> http://store.bluecherry.net/category_s/115.htm
>
> For a four camera solution though, you can do real-time x264 encode
> with a cheap dual-core processor. There's no need to buy the more
> expensive hardware encoding cards unless you go for a 8 or 16 channel
> solutions.
>
> Regards,
> Jackson Yee
> The Possum Company
> 540-818-4079
> me@gotpossum.com
>
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 7:09 AM, fsulima<fsulima@gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> Hi all.
>>
>> I'm looking for components to build 4 channel Linux-based DVR solution
>> exploiting hardware compression.
>> Although I found some such boards, they do not appear to be supported under
>> Linux.
>>
>> Please advise.
>>
>> WBR,
>> F S.
>>     
>
>   

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Re: Please advise: 4channel capture device with HW compression for Linux based DVR

[Jackson Yee]

Yep, been down that road before myself.

The truth of the matter is that slim profile, multiple port cards are
available with Linux drivers, but they are quite expensive ($500 for
the cheapest that I could find, although it is a very nice looking 16
port system).

I have a mini-ITX system sitting by my television right now which I
would love to use my new STK-1160 4-port USB adapter (marketed as
EasyCap 4-port DVR USB) with, but unfortunately, we're still working
out NTSC support for it. The guys using PAL and Zoneminder have
apparently gotten it to work pretty well.

I've never used an Atom system, but from what I understand, although
the CPU is quite power efficient, it is also utterly crushed in
performance by the cheapest dual-cores available today. That's why
Nvidia's Ion platform was so attractive to people looking to do 720p
or 1080p on their televisions - the Atom simply did not have the power
to handle HD video. A D1 stream is much easier to work with, but
encoding is also more processor intensive than decoding by an order of
magnitude. You could probably do one D1 stream with MPEG4, but if you
plan on using real-time x264 or more than one stream... I would have
to believe that your system would be quite incapable of keeping up the
framerate.

Believe me, I would love to say that I have a solution for you since
that would mean a solution for me as well, but the reality of the
matter is that we are just not quite there yet on driver support for a
multiple channel USB capture device. If you're just planning on doing
one D1 stream at a time, the WinTV PVR USB2 has hardware encoding and
is supported quite well. I suppose that you could hook up a couple of
these, but whether the system could handle these USB devices is beyond
my experience.

Please let me know if you have any success with this project.

Regards,
Jackson Yee
The Possum Company
540-818-4079
me@gotpossum.com

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 5:41 PM, fsulima<fsulima@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Jackson.
>
> Thanks for the answer.
> The first thing I realized when I learned how to use search on the mailing
> list was that this question is very common so I was already preparing to
> shot myself expecting the hear the advice to learn to use search. :) It's a
> shame.
> Ok, back to the point...
>
> The problem here is that I have a little unconventional hardware: it is a
> small form factor Intel D945GCLF2D mini-ITX Motherboard + integrated Intel
> Atom 330 2core 1.6Ghz. I have doubts about it's ability to encode 4 channels
> of D1, besides Intel advertises Atom's performance as video encoder:
> http://www.intel.com/design/intarch/applnots/DSS_Appnote_r5.pdf.
> I really don't want to setup another device specifically for DVR, especially
> with large form factor. Installing cheap capture device w/o h/w compression
> sounds like a great option, but I'd really like to be sure that Atom 330 is
> capable enough for this. Is there any expertise on this?

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Re: Please advise: 4channel capture device with HW compression for Linux based DVR

[fsulima]

Thanks a huge, it is exhausting!
Please see inline.

Jackson Yee wrote:
> Yep, been down that road before myself.
>
> The truth of the matter is that slim profile, multiple port cards are
> available with Linux drivers, but they are quite expensive ($500 for
> the cheapest that I could find, although it is a very nice looking 16
> port system).
>   
Oh, this is too pricy.
Are you talking only about cards with H/W encoding or about all low 
profile multiple port capture cards?
> I have a mini-ITX system sitting by my television right now which I
> would love to use my new STK-1160 4-port USB adapter (marketed as
> EasyCap 4-port DVR USB) with, but unfortunately, we're still working
> out NTSC support for it. The guys using PAL and Zoneminder have
> apparently gotten it to work pretty well.
>   
It appears like STK-1160 has 25/30 overall fps, so it's not quite the 
same thing.
> I've never used an Atom system, but from what I understand, although
> the CPU is quite power efficient, it is also utterly crushed in
> performance by the cheapest dual-cores available today. That's why
> Nvidia's Ion platform was so attractive to people looking to do 720p
> or 1080p on their televisions - the Atom simply did not have the power
> to handle HD video. A D1 stream is much easier to work with, but
> encoding is also more processor intensive than decoding by an order of
> magnitude. You could probably do one D1 stream with MPEG4, but if you
> plan on using real-time x264 or more than one stream... I would have
> to believe that your system would be quite incapable of keeping up the
> framerate.
>   
It was tricky to make ATOM decode HD, I had to employ multicore CoreAVC 
decoder. Decoding of 720p was consuming about 30% of CPU time (assuming 
it has 2 HT cores, each of 4 HW threads was busy 30% of time), and 1020p 
was about 50-70% AFAIR. It can be outperformed by regular P4.
So my system must be definitely unsuitable for real time encoding :(

> Believe me, I would love to say that I have a solution for you since
> that would mean a solution for me as well, but the reality of the
> matter is that we are just not quite there yet on driver support for a
> multiple channel USB capture device. If you're just planning on doing
> one D1 stream at a time, the WinTV PVR USB2 has hardware encoding and
> is supported quite well. I suppose that you could hook up a couple of
> these, but whether the system could handle these USB devices is beyond
> my experience.
>   
Yes, there are single channel devices with encoding, combining 4 of them 
together may be less pricy, but it's odd anyway. :)
> Please let me know if you have any success with this project.
>   
It looks it's not worth wasting time trying this on Atom.
I may need to consider an upgrade.
I'm considering Intel mini-itx motherboard. 
http://www.mini-box.com/Intel-DG41MJ-FSB1333-Socket-775-Mini-ITX-Motherboard
The price of the upgrade looks comparable with price of HW encoding 
solution, but it is more beneficial.

So, could you please say more about LP vs regular PCI capturers (W/O H/W 
encoding)? Are there inexpensive LP solutions?

Regards,
F S
> Regards,
> Jackson Yee
> The Possum Company
> 540-818-4079
> me@gotpossum.com
>   

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Re: Please advise: 4channel capture device with HW compression for Linux based DVR

[Jackson Yee]

On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 8:10 PM, fsulima<fsulima@gmail.com> wrote:
> Oh, this is too pricy.
> Are you talking only about cards with H/W encoding or about all low profile
> multiple port capture cards?

*ALL* low profile multiple port capture cards. The good hardware
encode cards, particularly the h264 ones, run in the thousands.

> So, could you please say more about LP vs regular PCI capturers (W/O H/W
> encoding)? Are there inexpensive LP solutions?

None in my experience that work with four ports and 30fps per port
under $500. I would suggest four WinTV USB2's and possibly an
additional PCI to USB card which would take some of the load off of
your motherboard's main USB hub. That should cost about $250-300
depending on sale prices for the WinTV USB2. I've never tried four in
a single system, but theoretically, it should work well.

Regards,
Jackson Yee
The Possum Company
540-818-4079
me@gotpossum.com

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Re: Please advise: 4channel capture device with HW compression for Linux based DVR

[fsulima]

Hi again.

I accidentally found an article which is very optimistic about Atom 
performance on the task.
Here it is: http://www.asmag.com/showpost/7806.aspx
It made me hope, so again I want to give it a try on Atom.

The problem is the same - the capturing hardware.
On the next shop I can find:
1. 4channel 30fps USB capturer - exactly like one you mentioned yesterday.
2. 4channel 120fps full-size PCI capturer (different ones)
3. AOpen S180 Mini-ITX - Mini-ITX case with full-height PCI - 
http://global.aopen.com/products_detail.aspx?Auno=2657 ;)
I forgot to mention that my next shop is kinda good one :)

Right now I have In-Win case with low profile slot: 
http://www.in-win.us/products_pccase_series.php?cat_id=1&series_id=24&model_id=241
It looks like it may be possible to fit full-size PCI card in there, but 
not arbitrary one and it would require some craft.

So, I see the following options right now:
1. Get USB capturer and give it a try at 30fps.
2. Try to fit full-size PCI into existent case.
3. Upgrade the case.

Any ideas?

Regards,
F S

P.S.: I'm not sure if it became off-topic for the list, shall we switch 
to private or it's ok?

Jackson Yee wrote:
> On Sun, Jul 5, 2009 at 8:10 PM, fsulima<fsulima@gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> Oh, this is too pricy.
>> Are you talking only about cards with H/W encoding or about all low profile
>> multiple port capture cards?
>>     
>
> *ALL* low profile multiple port capture cards. The good hardware
> encode cards, particularly the h264 ones, run in the thousands.
>   

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