CI USB

CI USB

[Jonas]

Hi All,

Does anyone know if there's any progress on USB CI adapter support?
Last posts I can find are from 2008 (Terratec Cinergy CI USB &
Hauppauge WinTV-CI).

That attempt seems to have stranded with Luc Brosens (who gave it a
shot back then) asking for help.

The chip manufacturer introduced a usb stick as well;
http://www.smardtv.com/index.php?page=products_listing&rubrique=pctv&section=usbcam
but besides the scary Vista logo on that page, it looks like they
target broadcast companies only and not end users.

Cheers,

- jonas

Re: CI USB

[HoP]

Hi Jonas

> Does anyone know if there's any progress on USB CI adapter support?
> Last posts I can find are from 2008 (Terratec Cinergy CI USB &
> Hauppauge WinTV-CI).
>
> That attempt seems to have stranded with Luc Brosens (who gave it a
> shot back then) asking for help.
>
> The chip manufacturer introduced a usb stick as well;
> http://www.smardtv.com/index.php?page=products_listing&rubrique=pctv&section=usbcam
> but besides the scary Vista logo on that page, it looks like they
> target broadcast companies only and not end users.
>

You are right. Seems DVB CI stick is not targeted to end consumers.

Anyway, it looks interesting, even it requires additional DVB tuner
"somewhere in the pc" what means duplicated traffic (to the CI stick
for descrambling and back for mpeg a/v decoding).

It would be nice to see such stuff working in linux, but because of
market targeting i don' t expect that.

BTW, Hauppauge's WinTV-CI looked much more promissing.
At least when I started reading whole thread about it here:
http://www.mail-archive.com/linux-dvb@linuxtv.org/msg28113.html

Unfortunatelly, last Steve's note about not getting anything
(even any answer) has disappointed me fully. And because
google is quiet about any progress on it I pressume
no any docu nor driver was released later on.

/Honza

Re: CI USB

[Steven Toth]

> BTW, Hauppauge's WinTV-CI looked much more promissing.
> At least when I started reading whole thread about it here:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/linux-dvb@linuxtv.org/msg28113.html
>
> Unfortunatelly, last Steve's note about not getting anything
> (even any answer) has disappointed me fully. And because
> google is quiet about any progress on it I pressume
> no any docu nor driver was released later on.

The whole project went badly wrong when the hardware vendor promised
documentation then failed to deliver. My mistake for trusting them in
the first place.

I had considered running a driver reverse engineering tutorial project
via kernellabs.com. Perhaps a 4 part series of writings, tools and
instructions that describe how to reverse engineer USB drivers and
culminates in a working skeleton driver for the WinTV CI that could be
used. I doubt I could make this happen without a project sponsor so if
you know any companies that would be willing to sponsor a project like
this then I'd certainly be interested in helping.

Regards,

-- 
Steven Toth - Kernel Labs
http://www.kernellabs.com

Re: CI USB

[Markus Rechberger]

On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 11:55 PM, HoP <jpetrous@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Jonas
>
>> Does anyone know if there's any progress on USB CI adapter support?
>> Last posts I can find are from 2008 (Terratec Cinergy CI USB &
>> Hauppauge WinTV-CI).
>>
>> That attempt seems to have stranded with Luc Brosens (who gave it a
>> shot back then) asking for help.
>>
>> The chip manufacturer introduced a usb stick as well;
>> http://www.smardtv.com/index.php?page=products_listing&rubrique=pctv&section=usbcam
>> but besides the scary Vista logo on that page, it looks like they
>> target broadcast companies only and not end users.
>>
>
> You are right. Seems DVB CI stick is not targeted to end consumers.
>
> Anyway, it looks interesting, even it requires additional DVB tuner
> "somewhere in the pc" what means duplicated traffic (to the CI stick
> for descrambling and back for mpeg a/v decoding).
>
> It would be nice to see such stuff working in linux, but because of
> market targeting i don' t expect that.
>
> BTW, Hauppauge's WinTV-CI looked much more promissing.
> At least when I started reading whole thread about it here:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/linux-dvb@linuxtv.org/msg28113.html
>
> Unfortunatelly, last Steve's note about not getting anything
> (even any answer) has disappointed me fully. And because
> google is quiet about any progress on it I pressume
> no any docu nor driver was released later on.
>

The question is more or less how many people are interested in USB CI
support for Linux.
We basically have everything to provide a USB CI solution for linux now.

Markus

Re: CI USB

[Emmanuel]

Markus Rechberger a écrit :
> On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 11:55 PM, HoP <jpetrous@gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> Hi Jonas
>>
>>     
>>> Does anyone know if there's any progress on USB CI adapter support?
>>> Last posts I can find are from 2008 (Terratec Cinergy CI USB &
>>> Hauppauge WinTV-CI).
>>>
>>> That attempt seems to have stranded with Luc Brosens (who gave it a
>>> shot back then) asking for help.
>>>
>>> The chip manufacturer introduced a usb stick as well;
>>> http://www.smardtv.com/index.php?page=products_listing&rubrique=pctv&section=usbcam
>>> but besides the scary Vista logo on that page, it looks like they
>>> target broadcast companies only and not end users.
>>>
>>>       
>> You are right. Seems DVB CI stick is not targeted to end consumers.
>>
>> Anyway, it looks interesting, even it requires additional DVB tuner
>> "somewhere in the pc" what means duplicated traffic (to the CI stick
>> for descrambling and back for mpeg a/v decoding).
>>
>> It would be nice to see such stuff working in linux, but because of
>> market targeting i don' t expect that.
>>
>> BTW, Hauppauge's WinTV-CI looked much more promissing.
>> At least when I started reading whole thread about it here:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/linux-dvb@linuxtv.org/msg28113.html
>>
>> Unfortunatelly, last Steve's note about not getting anything
>> (even any answer) has disappointed me fully. And because
>> google is quiet about any progress on it I pressume
>> no any docu nor driver was released later on.
>>
>>     
>
> The question is more or less how many people are interested in USB CI
> support for Linux.
> We basically have everything to provide a USB CI solution for linux now.
>
> Markus
> --
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-media" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>   

Well I dont know for others but it really looks interesting as you can 
have multiple cards with only one CI, meaning only one CAM and only one 
subscription card which is economically interesting.
Also some card (at least for DVB-S) are really good but targeted towards 
free channels, and in France for example, alot of good channels are not.
If the price is right (tm) I am sure a lot of people would be interested.
Bye
Manu

Re: CI USB

[Manu Abraham]

On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 5:09 PM, Emmanuel <eallaud@gmail.com> wrote:
> Markus Rechberger a écrit :
>>
>> On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 11:55 PM, HoP <jpetrous@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Hi Jonas
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Does anyone know if there's any progress on USB CI adapter support?
>>>> Last posts I can find are from 2008 (Terratec Cinergy CI USB &
>>>> Hauppauge WinTV-CI).
>>>>
>>>> That attempt seems to have stranded with Luc Brosens (who gave it a
>>>> shot back then) asking for help.
>>>>
>>>> The chip manufacturer introduced a usb stick as well;
>>>>
>>>> http://www.smardtv.com/index.php?page=products_listing&rubrique=pctv&section=usbcam
>>>> but besides the scary Vista logo on that page, it looks like they
>>>> target broadcast companies only and not end users.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> You are right. Seems DVB CI stick is not targeted to end consumers.
>>>
>>> Anyway, it looks interesting, even it requires additional DVB tuner
>>> "somewhere in the pc" what means duplicated traffic (to the CI stick
>>> for descrambling and back for mpeg a/v decoding).
>>>
>>> It would be nice to see such stuff working in linux, but because of
>>> market targeting i don' t expect that.
>>>
>>> BTW, Hauppauge's WinTV-CI looked much more promissing.
>>> At least when I started reading whole thread about it here:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/linux-dvb@linuxtv.org/msg28113.html
>>>
>>> Unfortunatelly, last Steve's note about not getting anything
>>> (even any answer) has disappointed me fully. And because
>>> google is quiet about any progress on it I pressume
>>> no any docu nor driver was released later on.
>>>
>>>
>>
>> The question is more or less how many people are interested in USB CI
>> support for Linux.
>> We basically have everything to provide a USB CI solution for linux now.
>>
>> Markus
>> --
>> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-media" in
>> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
>> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>>
>
> Well I dont know for others but it really looks interesting as you can have
> multiple cards with only one CI, meaning only one CAM and only one
> subscription card which is economically interesting.


I don't know the details into the USB device, but each of those CAM's
have bandwidth limits on them and they vary from one CAM to the other.
Also, there is a limit on the number of simultaneous PID's that which
you can decrypt.

Some allow only 1 PID, some allow 3. Those are the basic CAM's for
home usage.The most expensive CAM's allow a maximum of 24 PID's. But
then you would be better of buying multiple CAM's for a home use
purpose.



> Also some card (at least for DVB-S) are really good but targeted towards
> free channels, and in France for example, alot of good channels are not.
> If the price is right (tm) I am sure a lot of people would be interested.
> Bye
> Manu


Regards,
Mmanu

Re: CI USB

[HoP]

> I don't know the details into the USB device, but each of those CAM's
> have bandwidth limits on them and they vary from one CAM to the other.
> Also, there is a limit on the number of simultaneous PID's that which
> you can decrypt.
>
> Some allow only 1 PID, some allow 3. Those are the basic CAM's for
> home usage.The most expensive CAM's allow a maximum of 24 PID's. But

You, of course, ment number of descramblers not PIDS because it is evident
that getting TV service descrambled, you need as minimum 2 PIDS for A/V.

Anyway, it is very good note. Users, in general, don't know about it.

/Honza

Re: CI USB

[Ian Wilkinson]

HoP wrote:
>> I don't know the details into the USB device, but each of those CAM's
>> have bandwidth limits on them and they vary from one CAM to the other.
>> Also, there is a limit on the number of simultaneous PID's that which
>> you can decrypt.
>>
>> Some allow only 1 PID, some allow 3. Those are the basic CAM's for
>> home usage.The most expensive CAM's allow a maximum of 24 PID's. But
>>     
>
> You, of course, ment number of descramblers not PIDS because it is evident
> that getting TV service descrambled, you need as minimum 2 PIDS for A/V.
>
> Anyway, it is very good note. Users, in general, don't know about it.
>   
Hiya,

I've been reading this mailing list with regards to using a USB CI, but
hadn't found anything to help until I found the posts from Luc and Steve
sometime ago about getting the WinTV-CI to work under Linux.

Coincidently, at the end of last year I had e-mailed Luc about the
WinTV-CI, to see if I can help.
I'm in the process of purchasing some hardware to start testing.

He had managed to grab the firmware from the Windows driver but had so
far been unable to get it to load correctly in his new driver.


Regards,

Ian Wilkinson

Re: CI USB

[Emmanuel]

HoP a écrit :
>> I don't know the details into the USB device, but each of those CAM's
>> have bandwidth limits on them and they vary from one CAM to the other.
>> Also, there is a limit on the number of simultaneous PID's that which
>> you can decrypt.
>>
>> Some allow only 1 PID, some allow 3. Those are the basic CAM's for
>> home usage.The most expensive CAM's allow a maximum of 24 PID's. But
>>     
>
> You, of course, ment number of descramblers not PIDS because it is evident
> that getting TV service descrambled, you need as minimum 2 PIDS for A/V.
>
> Anyway, it is very good note. Users, in general, don't know about it.
>
> /Honza
>   
Just a quick note here: you might want to post to the mythtv ML and the 
VDR one also (probably others but I dont know them off hand) and see how 
people feel about this. My guess is that quite a few potential users are 
on these ML, and the CI threads are recurrent there because of good 
dvb-s cards but without CI support.
A usb-CI or equivalent HW + good drivers would allow people to pick the 
dvb-s(2) cards without worrying about CI support.
HTH
Bye
Manu

Re: CI USB

[Manu Abraham]

On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Ian Wilkinson <null@sgtwilko.f9.co.uk> wrote:
> HoP wrote:
>
> I don't know the details into the USB device, but each of those CAM's
> have bandwidth limits on them and they vary from one CAM to the other.
> Also, there is a limit on the number of simultaneous PID's that which
> you can decrypt.
>
> Some allow only 1 PID, some allow 3. Those are the basic CAM's for
> home usage.The most expensive CAM's allow a maximum of 24 PID's. But
>
>
> You, of course, ment number of descramblers not PIDS because it is evident
> that getting TV service descrambled, you need as minimum 2 PIDS for A/V.
>
> Anyway, it is very good note. Users, in general, don't know about it.
>

If it is using a CI+ plus chip (I heard from someone that it is a CI+
chip inside) :
http://www.smardtv.com/index.php?page=ciplus

After reading the CI+ specifications, I doubt that it can be supported
under Linux with open source support, without a paired decoder
hardware or software decoder. A paired open source software decoder
seems highly unlikely, as the output of the CI+ module is eventually
an encrypted stream which can be descrambled with the relevant keys.
The TS is not supposed to be stored on disk, or that's what the whole
concept is for CI+

http://www.ci-plus.com/data/ci-plus_overview_v2009-07-06.pdf

See pages 7, 8 , 12, 15

It could be possible to pair a software decoder with a key and hence
under Windows, but under Linux I would really doubt it, if it happens
to be a CI+ chip

Regards,
Manu

Re: CI USB

[Konstantin Dimitrov]

On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 1:31 AM, Manu Abraham <abraham.manu@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Ian Wilkinson <null@sgtwilko.f9.co.uk> wrote:
>> HoP wrote:
>>
>> I don't know the details into the USB device, but each of those CAM's
>> have bandwidth limits on them and they vary from one CAM to the other.
>> Also, there is a limit on the number of simultaneous PID's that which
>> you can decrypt.
>>
>> Some allow only 1 PID, some allow 3. Those are the basic CAM's for
>> home usage.The most expensive CAM's allow a maximum of 24 PID's. But
>>
>>
>> You, of course, ment number of descramblers not PIDS because it is evident
>> that getting TV service descrambled, you need as minimum 2 PIDS for A/V.
>>
>> Anyway, it is very good note. Users, in general, don't know about it.
>>
>
> If it is using a CI+ plus chip (I heard from someone that it is a CI+
> chip inside) :
> http://www.smardtv.com/index.php?page=ciplus
>
> After reading the CI+ specifications, I doubt that it can be supported
> under Linux with open source support, without a paired decoder
> hardware or software decoder. A paired open source software decoder
> seems highly unlikely, as the output of the CI+ module is eventually
> an encrypted stream which can be descrambled with the relevant keys.
> The TS is not supposed to be stored on disk, or that's what the whole
> concept is for CI+
>
> http://www.ci-plus.com/data/ci-plus_overview_v2009-07-06.pdf
>
> See pages 7, 8 , 12, 15
>
> It could be possible to pair a software decoder with a key and hence
> under Windows, but under Linux I would really doubt it, if it happens
> to be a CI+ chip

at least in Windows Hauppage WinTV-CI USB (which is OEM version of
SmartDTV USB CI) allows you to capture the decrypted stream to your
hard drive (i've just tested it).

so, i can't see a reason why even if it has CI+ chip inside same
functionally as in Windows can't be provided in Linux if someone
developed a driver.

>
> Regards,
> Manu
> --
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-media" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>

Re: CI USB

[Manu Abraham]

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 1:45 AM, Konstantin Dimitrov
<kosio.dimitrov@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 1:31 AM, Manu Abraham <abraham.manu@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Ian Wilkinson <null@sgtwilko.f9.co.uk> wrote:
>>> HoP wrote:
>>>
>>> I don't know the details into the USB device, but each of those CAM's
>>> have bandwidth limits on them and they vary from one CAM to the other.
>>> Also, there is a limit on the number of simultaneous PID's that which
>>> you can decrypt.
>>>
>>> Some allow only 1 PID, some allow 3. Those are the basic CAM's for
>>> home usage.The most expensive CAM's allow a maximum of 24 PID's. But
>>>
>>>
>>> You, of course, ment number of descramblers not PIDS because it is evident
>>> that getting TV service descrambled, you need as minimum 2 PIDS for A/V.
>>>
>>> Anyway, it is very good note. Users, in general, don't know about it.
>>>
>>
>> If it is using a CI+ plus chip (I heard from someone that it is a CI+
>> chip inside) :
>> http://www.smardtv.com/index.php?page=ciplus
>>
>> After reading the CI+ specifications, I doubt that it can be supported
>> under Linux with open source support, without a paired decoder
>> hardware or software decoder. A paired open source software decoder
>> seems highly unlikely, as the output of the CI+ module is eventually
>> an encrypted stream which can be descrambled with the relevant keys.
>> The TS is not supposed to be stored on disk, or that's what the whole
>> concept is for CI+
>>
>> http://www.ci-plus.com/data/ci-plus_overview_v2009-07-06.pdf
>>
>> See pages 7, 8 , 12, 15
>>
>> It could be possible to pair a software decoder with a key and hence
>> under Windows, but under Linux I would really doubt it, if it happens
>> to be a CI+ chip
>
> at least in Windows Hauppage WinTV-CI USB (which is OEM version of
> SmartDTV USB CI) allows you to capture the decrypted stream to your
> hard drive (i've just tested it).


Maybe it is not CI+ itself in the first place


> so, i can't see a reason why even if it has CI+ chip inside same
> functionally as in Windows can't be provided in Linux if someone
> developed a driver.


It would be interesting to know what chips the hardware has  ...

Regards,
Manu

Re: CI USB

[Konstantin Dimitrov]

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 1:43 AM, Manu Abraham <abraham.manu@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 1:45 AM, Konstantin Dimitrov
> <kosio.dimitrov@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 1:31 AM, Manu Abraham <abraham.manu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Ian Wilkinson <null@sgtwilko.f9.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> HoP wrote:
>>>>
>>>> I don't know the details into the USB device, but each of those CAM's
>>>> have bandwidth limits on them and they vary from one CAM to the other.
>>>> Also, there is a limit on the number of simultaneous PID's that which
>>>> you can decrypt.
>>>>
>>>> Some allow only 1 PID, some allow 3. Those are the basic CAM's for
>>>> home usage.The most expensive CAM's allow a maximum of 24 PID's. But
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> You, of course, ment number of descramblers not PIDS because it is evident
>>>> that getting TV service descrambled, you need as minimum 2 PIDS for A/V.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, it is very good note. Users, in general, don't know about it.
>>>>
>>>
>>> If it is using a CI+ plus chip (I heard from someone that it is a CI+
>>> chip inside) :
>>> http://www.smardtv.com/index.php?page=ciplus
>>>
>>> After reading the CI+ specifications, I doubt that it can be supported
>>> under Linux with open source support, without a paired decoder
>>> hardware or software decoder. A paired open source software decoder
>>> seems highly unlikely, as the output of the CI+ module is eventually
>>> an encrypted stream which can be descrambled with the relevant keys.
>>> The TS is not supposed to be stored on disk, or that's what the whole
>>> concept is for CI+
>>>
>>> http://www.ci-plus.com/data/ci-plus_overview_v2009-07-06.pdf
>>>
>>> See pages 7, 8 , 12, 15
>>>
>>> It could be possible to pair a software decoder with a key and hence
>>> under Windows, but under Linux I would really doubt it, if it happens
>>> to be a CI+ chip
>>
>> at least in Windows Hauppage WinTV-CI USB (which is OEM version of
>> SmartDTV USB CI) allows you to capture the decrypted stream to your
>> hard drive (i've just tested it).
>
>
> Maybe it is not CI+ itself in the first place
>
>
>> so, i can't see a reason why even if it has CI+ chip inside same
>> functionally as in Windows can't be provided in Linux if someone
>> developed a driver.
>
>
> It would be interesting to know what chips the hardware has  ...

i can confirm the information here:

* http://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/Hauppauge_WinTV-CI

and it contains:

* "an FX2 from Cypress (CY7C68013A) and a FPGA (Actel Proasic-plus, APA075-F)"

also, i can confirm that firmware extractor here:

http://www.bsc-bvba.be/linux/dvb/

is correct at least for A2 hardware (but A1 hardware is no longer in
production anyway), because a long time ago i verified with spying the
USB traffic what firmware is uploaded in Windows for A2 hardware and
informed Luc Brosens and he fixed his firmware extractor tool.

however, it seems that the main problem as it's mentioned by Luc
Brosens is why firmware upload fails in Linux, because according to
Steven Toth words:

* http://www.linuxtv.org/pipermail/linux-dvb/2008-April/025284.html

* "I also looked at the USB traffic on the current Hauppauge driver, with a
* cam inserted and decryption happening. The protocol appears pretty simple."

after the firmware is uploaded is easy to figure out how to send
commands to the device.

>
> Regards,
> Manu
>

Re: CI USB

[Manu Abraham]

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Konstantin Dimitrov
<kosio.dimitrov@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 1:43 AM, Manu Abraham <abraham.manu@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 1:45 AM, Konstantin Dimitrov
>> <kosio.dimitrov@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 1:31 AM, Manu Abraham <abraham.manu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Ian Wilkinson <null@sgtwilko.f9.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> HoP wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> I don't know the details into the USB device, but each of those CAM's
>>>>> have bandwidth limits on them and they vary from one CAM to the other.
>>>>> Also, there is a limit on the number of simultaneous PID's that which
>>>>> you can decrypt.
>>>>>
>>>>> Some allow only 1 PID, some allow 3. Those are the basic CAM's for
>>>>> home usage.The most expensive CAM's allow a maximum of 24 PID's. But
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> You, of course, ment number of descramblers not PIDS because it is evident
>>>>> that getting TV service descrambled, you need as minimum 2 PIDS for A/V.
>>>>>
>>>>> Anyway, it is very good note. Users, in general, don't know about it.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If it is using a CI+ plus chip (I heard from someone that it is a CI+
>>>> chip inside) :
>>>> http://www.smardtv.com/index.php?page=ciplus
>>>>
>>>> After reading the CI+ specifications, I doubt that it can be supported
>>>> under Linux with open source support, without a paired decoder
>>>> hardware or software decoder. A paired open source software decoder
>>>> seems highly unlikely, as the output of the CI+ module is eventually
>>>> an encrypted stream which can be descrambled with the relevant keys.
>>>> The TS is not supposed to be stored on disk, or that's what the whole
>>>> concept is for CI+
>>>>
>>>> http://www.ci-plus.com/data/ci-plus_overview_v2009-07-06.pdf
>>>>
>>>> See pages 7, 8 , 12, 15
>>>>
>>>> It could be possible to pair a software decoder with a key and hence
>>>> under Windows, but under Linux I would really doubt it, if it happens
>>>> to be a CI+ chip
>>>
>>> at least in Windows Hauppage WinTV-CI USB (which is OEM version of
>>> SmartDTV USB CI) allows you to capture the decrypted stream to your
>>> hard drive (i've just tested it).
>>
>>
>> Maybe it is not CI+ itself in the first place
>>
>>
>>> so, i can't see a reason why even if it has CI+ chip inside same
>>> functionally as in Windows can't be provided in Linux if someone
>>> developed a driver.
>>
>>
>> It would be interesting to know what chips the hardware has  ...
>
> i can confirm the information here:
>
> * http://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/Hauppauge_WinTV-CI
>
> and it contains:
>
> * "an FX2 from Cypress (CY7C68013A) and a FPGA (Actel Proasic-plus, APA075-F)"
>


No CI+ in there ... Generic USB bridge with microcontroller and
possibly a FPGA programmed by Hauppauge themselves, most probably. The
bridge would be similar to other DVB USB devices, Application on the
FPGA would be more or less similar to the one found on general DVB CI
devices.

If it's not a Masked FPGA, it would need to load it's instructions
some place, maybe an EEPROM or maybe from the firmware that you need
load itself. Some part of the firmware that you load could be partly
for the microcontroller on the USB bridge as well.


Manu

Re: CI USB

[Konstantin Dimitrov]

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Manu Abraham <abraham.manu@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Konstantin Dimitrov
> <kosio.dimitrov@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 1:43 AM, Manu Abraham <abraham.manu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 1:45 AM, Konstantin Dimitrov
>>> <kosio.dimitrov@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 1:31 AM, Manu Abraham <abraham.manu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Ian Wilkinson <null@sgtwilko.f9.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> HoP wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I don't know the details into the USB device, but each of those CAM's
>>>>>> have bandwidth limits on them and they vary from one CAM to the other.
>>>>>> Also, there is a limit on the number of simultaneous PID's that which
>>>>>> you can decrypt.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Some allow only 1 PID, some allow 3. Those are the basic CAM's for
>>>>>> home usage.The most expensive CAM's allow a maximum of 24 PID's. But
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You, of course, ment number of descramblers not PIDS because it is evident
>>>>>> that getting TV service descrambled, you need as minimum 2 PIDS for A/V.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anyway, it is very good note. Users, in general, don't know about it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If it is using a CI+ plus chip (I heard from someone that it is a CI+
>>>>> chip inside) :
>>>>> http://www.smardtv.com/index.php?page=ciplus
>>>>>
>>>>> After reading the CI+ specifications, I doubt that it can be supported
>>>>> under Linux with open source support, without a paired decoder
>>>>> hardware or software decoder. A paired open source software decoder
>>>>> seems highly unlikely, as the output of the CI+ module is eventually
>>>>> an encrypted stream which can be descrambled with the relevant keys.
>>>>> The TS is not supposed to be stored on disk, or that's what the whole
>>>>> concept is for CI+
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.ci-plus.com/data/ci-plus_overview_v2009-07-06.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>> See pages 7, 8 , 12, 15
>>>>>
>>>>> It could be possible to pair a software decoder with a key and hence
>>>>> under Windows, but under Linux I would really doubt it, if it happens
>>>>> to be a CI+ chip
>>>>
>>>> at least in Windows Hauppage WinTV-CI USB (which is OEM version of
>>>> SmartDTV USB CI) allows you to capture the decrypted stream to your
>>>> hard drive (i've just tested it).
>>>
>>>
>>> Maybe it is not CI+ itself in the first place
>>>
>>>
>>>> so, i can't see a reason why even if it has CI+ chip inside same
>>>> functionally as in Windows can't be provided in Linux if someone
>>>> developed a driver.
>>>
>>>
>>> It would be interesting to know what chips the hardware has  ...
>>
>> i can confirm the information here:
>>
>> * http://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/Hauppauge_WinTV-CI
>>
>> and it contains:
>>
>> * "an FX2 from Cypress (CY7C68013A) and a FPGA (Actel Proasic-plus, APA075-F)"
>>
>
>
> No CI+ in there ... Generic USB bridge with microcontroller and
> possibly a FPGA programmed by Hauppauge themselves, most probably. The

no, the whole Hauppauge device is actually made by SmartDTV even on
the board there is a title "SmartDTV Rev..."

also, Terratec device is the same as Hauppauge device, they even look the same:

http://www.terratec.net/en/products/Cinergy_CI_USB_2296.html

and Terratec driver for Windows says "Copyright SmarDTV.", which means
it's made by SmarDTV.

actually, Terratec driver for Windows is essentially the same as
Hauppauge one, because firmware extracted from both drivers is the
same (they update the firmware with driver updates, so matching
versions of Terratec and Hauppauge driver is needed to check that the
firmwares are the same).

> bridge would be similar to other DVB USB devices, Application on the
> FPGA would be more or less similar to the one found on general DVB CI
> devices.
>
> If it's not a Masked FPGA, it would need to load it's instructions
> some place, maybe an EEPROM or maybe from the firmware that you need
> load itself. Some part of the firmware that you load could be partly
> for the microcontroller on the USB bridge as well.

i believe that "40 A3" firmware requests are for the USB controller
and then the subsequent "40 A3" firmware requests are to load the FPGA
instructions through the USB controller.

>
>
> Manu
>

Re: CI USB

[Konstantin Dimitrov]

On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 10:54 AM, Konstantin Dimitrov
<kosio.dimitrov@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Manu Abraham <abraham.manu@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Konstantin Dimitrov
>> <kosio.dimitrov@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 1:43 AM, Manu Abraham <abraham.manu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 1:45 AM, Konstantin Dimitrov
>>>> <kosio.dimitrov@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 1:31 AM, Manu Abraham <abraham.manu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Ian Wilkinson <null@sgtwilko.f9.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> HoP wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I don't know the details into the USB device, but each of those CAM's
>>>>>>> have bandwidth limits on them and they vary from one CAM to the other.
>>>>>>> Also, there is a limit on the number of simultaneous PID's that which
>>>>>>> you can decrypt.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Some allow only 1 PID, some allow 3. Those are the basic CAM's for
>>>>>>> home usage.The most expensive CAM's allow a maximum of 24 PID's. But
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You, of course, ment number of descramblers not PIDS because it is evident
>>>>>>> that getting TV service descrambled, you need as minimum 2 PIDS for A/V.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anyway, it is very good note. Users, in general, don't know about it.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If it is using a CI+ plus chip (I heard from someone that it is a CI+
>>>>>> chip inside) :
>>>>>> http://www.smardtv.com/index.php?page=ciplus
>>>>>>
>>>>>> After reading the CI+ specifications, I doubt that it can be supported
>>>>>> under Linux with open source support, without a paired decoder
>>>>>> hardware or software decoder. A paired open source software decoder
>>>>>> seems highly unlikely, as the output of the CI+ module is eventually
>>>>>> an encrypted stream which can be descrambled with the relevant keys.
>>>>>> The TS is not supposed to be stored on disk, or that's what the whole
>>>>>> concept is for CI+
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.ci-plus.com/data/ci-plus_overview_v2009-07-06.pdf
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See pages 7, 8 , 12, 15
>>>>>>
>>>>>> It could be possible to pair a software decoder with a key and hence
>>>>>> under Windows, but under Linux I would really doubt it, if it happens
>>>>>> to be a CI+ chip
>>>>>
>>>>> at least in Windows Hauppage WinTV-CI USB (which is OEM version of
>>>>> SmartDTV USB CI) allows you to capture the decrypted stream to your
>>>>> hard drive (i've just tested it).
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Maybe it is not CI+ itself in the first place
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> so, i can't see a reason why even if it has CI+ chip inside same
>>>>> functionally as in Windows can't be provided in Linux if someone
>>>>> developed a driver.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> It would be interesting to know what chips the hardware has  ...
>>>
>>> i can confirm the information here:
>>>
>>> * http://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/Hauppauge_WinTV-CI
>>>
>>> and it contains:
>>>
>>> * "an FX2 from Cypress (CY7C68013A) and a FPGA (Actel Proasic-plus, APA075-F)"
>>>
>>
>>
>> No CI+ in there ... Generic USB bridge with microcontroller and
>> possibly a FPGA programmed by Hauppauge themselves, most probably. The
>
> no, the whole Hauppauge device is actually made by SmartDTV even on
> the board there is a title "SmartDTV Rev..."
>
> also, Terratec device is the same as Hauppauge device, they even look the same:
>
> http://www.terratec.net/en/products/Cinergy_CI_USB_2296.html
>
> and Terratec driver for Windows says "Copyright SmarDTV.", which means
> it's made by SmarDTV.
>
> actually, Terratec driver for Windows is essentially the same as
> Hauppauge one, because firmware extracted from both drivers is the
> same (they update the firmware with driver updates, so matching
> versions of Terratec and Hauppauge driver is needed to check that the
> firmwares are the same).
>
>> bridge would be similar to other DVB USB devices, Application on the
>> FPGA would be more or less similar to the one found on general DVB CI
>> devices.
>>
>> If it's not a Masked FPGA, it would need to load it's instructions
>> some place, maybe an EEPROM or maybe from the firmware that you need
>> load itself. Some part of the firmware that you load could be partly
>> for the microcontroller on the USB bridge as well.
>
> i believe that "40 A3" firmware requests are for the USB controller

typo, "40 A0" firmware requests are for the USB controller

> and then the subsequent "40 A3" firmware requests are to load the FPGA
> instructions through the USB controller.
>
>>
>>
>> Manu
>>
>

Re: CI USB

[Another Sillyname]

On 24 January 2010 09:56, Konstantin Dimitrov <kosio.dimitrov@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 10:54 AM, Konstantin Dimitrov
> <kosio.dimitrov@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Manu Abraham <abraham.manu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 11:49 AM, Konstantin Dimitrov
>>> <kosio.dimitrov@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 1:43 AM, Manu Abraham <abraham.manu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 1:45 AM, Konstantin Dimitrov
>>>>> <kosio.dimitrov@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 1:31 AM, Manu Abraham <abraham.manu@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 9:21 PM, Ian Wilkinson <null@sgtwilko.f9.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> HoP wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I don't know the details into the USB device, but each of those CAM's
>>>>>>>> have bandwidth limits on them and they vary from one CAM to the other.
>>>>>>>> Also, there is a limit on the number of simultaneous PID's that which
>>>>>>>> you can decrypt.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Some allow only 1 PID, some allow 3. Those are the basic CAM's for
>>>>>>>> home usage.The most expensive CAM's allow a maximum of 24 PID's. But
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You, of course, ment number of descramblers not PIDS because it is evident
>>>>>>>> that getting TV service descrambled, you need as minimum 2 PIDS for A/V.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anyway, it is very good note. Users, in general, don't know about it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If it is using a CI+ plus chip (I heard from someone that it is a CI+
>>>>>>> chip inside) :
>>>>>>> http://www.smardtv.com/index.php?page=ciplus
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> After reading the CI+ specifications, I doubt that it can be supported
>>>>>>> under Linux with open source support, without a paired decoder
>>>>>>> hardware or software decoder. A paired open source software decoder
>>>>>>> seems highly unlikely, as the output of the CI+ module is eventually
>>>>>>> an encrypted stream which can be descrambled with the relevant keys.
>>>>>>> The TS is not supposed to be stored on disk, or that's what the whole
>>>>>>> concept is for CI+
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.ci-plus.com/data/ci-plus_overview_v2009-07-06.pdf
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> See pages 7, 8 , 12, 15
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It could be possible to pair a software decoder with a key and hence
>>>>>>> under Windows, but under Linux I would really doubt it, if it happens
>>>>>>> to be a CI+ chip
>>>>>>
>>>>>> at least in Windows Hauppage WinTV-CI USB (which is OEM version of
>>>>>> SmartDTV USB CI) allows you to capture the decrypted stream to your
>>>>>> hard drive (i've just tested it).
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Maybe it is not CI+ itself in the first place
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> so, i can't see a reason why even if it has CI+ chip inside same
>>>>>> functionally as in Windows can't be provided in Linux if someone
>>>>>> developed a driver.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> It would be interesting to know what chips the hardware has  ...
>>>>
>>>> i can confirm the information here:
>>>>
>>>> * http://www.linuxtv.org/wiki/index.php/Hauppauge_WinTV-CI
>>>>
>>>> and it contains:
>>>>
>>>> * "an FX2 from Cypress (CY7C68013A) and a FPGA (Actel Proasic-plus, APA075-F)"
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No CI+ in there ... Generic USB bridge with microcontroller and
>>> possibly a FPGA programmed by Hauppauge themselves, most probably. The
>>
>> no, the whole Hauppauge device is actually made by SmartDTV even on
>> the board there is a title "SmartDTV Rev..."
>>
>> also, Terratec device is the same as Hauppauge device, they even look the same:
>>
>> http://www.terratec.net/en/products/Cinergy_CI_USB_2296.html
>>
>> and Terratec driver for Windows says "Copyright SmarDTV.", which means
>> it's made by SmarDTV.
>>
>> actually, Terratec driver for Windows is essentially the same as
>> Hauppauge one, because firmware extracted from both drivers is the
>> same (they update the firmware with driver updates, so matching
>> versions of Terratec and Hauppauge driver is needed to check that the
>> firmwares are the same).
>>
>>> bridge would be similar to other DVB USB devices, Application on the
>>> FPGA would be more or less similar to the one found on general DVB CI
>>> devices.
>>>
>>> If it's not a Masked FPGA, it would need to load it's instructions
>>> some place, maybe an EEPROM or maybe from the firmware that you need
>>> load itself. Some part of the firmware that you load could be partly
>>> for the microcontroller on the USB bridge as well.
>>
>> i believe that "40 A3" firmware requests are for the USB controller
>
> typo, "40 A0" firmware requests are for the USB controller
>
>> and then the subsequent "40 A3" firmware requests are to load the FPGA
>> instructions through the USB controller.
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Manu
>>>
>>
> --
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-media" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>

According to this page

http://www.bsc-bvba.be/linux/dvb/

the firmware load problem was solved about a month ago

What is needed in the way of resources to solve this problem?

Regards

Re: CI USB

[Emmanuel]

Manu Abraham a écrit :
> On Sun, Jan 10, 2010 at 5:09 PM, Emmanuel <eallaud@gmail.com> wrote:
>   
>> Markus Rechberger a écrit :
>>     
>>> On Sat, Jan 2, 2010 at 11:55 PM, HoP <jpetrous@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>       
>>>> Hi Jonas
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         
>>>>> Does anyone know if there's any progress on USB CI adapter support?
>>>>> Last posts I can find are from 2008 (Terratec Cinergy CI USB &
>>>>> Hauppauge WinTV-CI).
>>>>>
>>>>> That attempt seems to have stranded with Luc Brosens (who gave it a
>>>>> shot back then) asking for help.
>>>>>
>>>>> The chip manufacturer introduced a usb stick as well;
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.smardtv.com/index.php?page=products_listing&rubrique=pctv&section=usbcam
>>>>> but besides the scary Vista logo on that page, it looks like they
>>>>> target broadcast companies only and not end users.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>           
>>>> You are right. Seems DVB CI stick is not targeted to end consumers.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, it looks interesting, even it requires additional DVB tuner
>>>> "somewhere in the pc" what means duplicated traffic (to the CI stick
>>>> for descrambling and back for mpeg a/v decoding).
>>>>
>>>> It would be nice to see such stuff working in linux, but because of
>>>> market targeting i don' t expect that.
>>>>
>>>> BTW, Hauppauge's WinTV-CI looked much more promissing.
>>>> At least when I started reading whole thread about it here:
>>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/linux-dvb@linuxtv.org/msg28113.html
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunatelly, last Steve's note about not getting anything
>>>> (even any answer) has disappointed me fully. And because
>>>> google is quiet about any progress on it I pressume
>>>> no any docu nor driver was released later on.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>         
>>> The question is more or less how many people are interested in USB CI
>>> support for Linux.
>>> We basically have everything to provide a USB CI solution for linux now.
>>>
>>> Markus
>>> --
>>> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-media" in
>>> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
>>> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>>>
>>>       
>> Well I dont know for others but it really looks interesting as you can have
>> multiple cards with only one CI, meaning only one CAM and only one
>> subscription card which is economically interesting.
>>     
>
>
> I don't know the details into the USB device, but each of those CAM's
> have bandwidth limits on them and they vary from one CAM to the other.
> Also, there is a limit on the number of simultaneous PID's that which
> you can decrypt.
>
> Some allow only 1 PID, some allow 3. Those are the basic CAM's for
> home usage.The most expensive CAM's allow a maximum of 24 PID's. But
> then you would be better of buying multiple CAM's for a home use
> purpose.
>   
Well  my Astoncrypt is able to descramble 2 channels simultanueously, 
but here the good thing would be that you could descramble after the 
recording, so that you would be able for example to capture 4 channels 
on the same transponder only to descramble one by one later on.
Bye
Manu