Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design

Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design

[Maupin, Chase]

All,

Texas Instruments (TI) is working on the design for the V4L2 capture and display drivers for our next generation system-on-chip (SoC) processor and would like to solicit your feedback.  Our new SoCs have been improved to allow for higher video resolutions and greater frame rates.  To this end the display hardware has been moved to a separate processing block called the video processing subsystem (VPSS).  The VPSS will be running a firmware image that controls the capture/display hardware and services requests from one or more host processors.

Moving to a remote processor for the processing of video input and output data requires that commands to control the hardware be passed to this processing block using some form of inter-processor communication (IPC).  TI would like to solicit your feedback on proposal for the V4L2 driver design to get a feel for whether or not this design would be accepted into the Linux kernel.  To this end we have put together an overview of the design and usage on our wiki at http://wiki.davincidsp.com/index.php/Video_Processing_Subsystem_Driver_Design.  We would greatly appreciate feedback from community members on the acceptability of our driver design.

If you have additional questions or need more information please feel free to contact us (we have setup a mailing list at vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com) so we can answer them.

Sincerely,
Chase Maupin
Software Applications
Catalog DSP Products
e-mail: chase.maupin@ti.com

For support:
Forums - http://community.ti.com/forums/
Wiki - http://wiki.davincidsp.com/

Re: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design

[Mauro Carvalho Chehab]

Maupin, Chase wrote:
> All,
> 
> Texas Instruments (TI) is working on the design for the V4L2 capture and display drivers for our next generation system-on-chip (SoC) processor and would like to solicit your feedback.  Our new SoCs have been improved to allow for higher video resolutions and greater frame rates.  To this end the display hardware has been moved to a separate processing block called the video processing subsystem (VPSS).  The VPSS will be running a firmware image that controls the capture/display hardware and services requests from one or more host processors.
> 
> Moving to a remote processor for the processing of video input and output data requires that commands to control the hardware be passed to this processing block using some form of inter-processor communication (IPC).  TI would like to solicit your feedback on proposal for the V4L2 driver design to get a feel for whether or not this design would be accepted into the Linux kernel.  To this end we have put together an overview of the design and usage on our wiki at http://wiki.davincidsp.com/index.php/Video_Processing_Subsystem_Driver_Design.  We would greatly appreciate feedback from community members on the acceptability of our driver design.
> 
> If you have additional questions or need more information please feel free to contact us (we have setup a mailing list at vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com) so we can answer them.
> 

Hi Chase,

I'm not sure if I got all the details on your proposal, so let me try to give my
understanding.

First of all, for normal usage (e.g. capturing a stream or sending an stream
to an output device), the driver should work with only the standard V4L2 API.
I'm assuming that the driver will provide this capability.

I understand that, being a SoC hardware, there are much more that can be done
than just doing the normal stream capture/output, already supported by V4L2 API.

For such advanced usages, we're open to a proposal to enhance the existing API
to support the needs. There are some important aspects that need to be considered
when designing any Linux userspace API's:

	1) kernel-userspace API's are forever. So, they need to be designed in
a way that new technology changes won't break the old API;

	2) API's are meant to be generic. So, they needed to be designed in a way
that, if another hardware with similar features require an API, the planned one
should fit;

	3) The API's should be, as much as possible, independent of the hardware
architecture. You'll see that even low-level architecture dependent stuff, like
bus drivers are designed in a way that they are not bound to a particular hardware,
but instead provide the same common methods to interact with the hardware to other
device drivers.

That's said, it would be interesting if you could give us a more deep detail on 
what kind of functionalities and how do you think you'll be implementing them.

-- 

Cheers,
Mauro

Re: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design

[Hans Verkuil]

On Monday 08 February 2010 21:23:00 Mauro Carvalho Chehab wrote:
> Maupin, Chase wrote:
> > All,
> > 
> > Texas Instruments (TI) is working on the design for the V4L2 capture and display drivers for our next generation system-on-chip (SoC) processor and would like to solicit your feedback.  Our new SoCs have been improved to allow for higher video resolutions and greater frame rates.  To this end the display hardware has been moved to a separate processing block called the video processing subsystem (VPSS).  The VPSS will be running a firmware image that controls the capture/display hardware and services requests from one or more host processors.
> > 
> > Moving to a remote processor for the processing of video input and output data requires that commands to control the hardware be passed to this processing block using some form of inter-processor communication (IPC).  TI would like to solicit your feedback on proposal for the V4L2 driver design to get a feel for whether or not this design would be accepted into the Linux kernel.  To this end we have put together an overview of the design and usage on our wiki at http://wiki.davincidsp.com/index.php/Video_Processing_Subsystem_Driver_Design.  We would greatly appreciate feedback from community members on the acceptability of our driver design.
> > 
> > If you have additional questions or need more information please feel free to contact us (we have setup a mailing list at vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com) so we can answer them.
> > 
> 
> Hi Chase,
> 
> I'm not sure if I got all the details on your proposal, so let me try to give my
> understanding.
> 
> First of all, for normal usage (e.g. capturing a stream or sending an stream
> to an output device), the driver should work with only the standard V4L2 API.
> I'm assuming that the driver will provide this capability.
> 
> I understand that, being a SoC hardware, there are much more that can be done
> than just doing the normal stream capture/output, already supported by V4L2 API.
> 
> For such advanced usages, we're open to a proposal to enhance the existing API
> to support the needs. There are some important aspects that need to be considered
> when designing any Linux userspace API's:

The full functionality of this device can be handled by the proposals made during
last year's LPC and that are currently being implemented/prototyped for omap3.
That's no coincidence, by the way :-)

> 
> 	1) kernel-userspace API's are forever. So, they need to be designed in
> a way that new technology changes won't break the old API;
> 
> 	2) API's are meant to be generic. So, they needed to be designed in a way
> that, if another hardware with similar features require an API, the planned one
> should fit;
> 
> 	3) The API's should be, as much as possible, independent of the hardware
> architecture. You'll see that even low-level architecture dependent stuff, like
> bus drivers are designed in a way that they are not bound to a particular hardware,
> but instead provide the same common methods to interact with the hardware to other
> device drivers.
> 
> That's said, it would be interesting if you could give us a more deep detail on 
> what kind of functionalities and how do you think you'll be implementing them.

For me the core issue will be the communication between the main ARM and the ARM
controlling the VPSS. Looking at the syslink part of the git tree it all looks
way overengineered to me. In particular the multicore_ipc directory. Is all that
code involved in setting up the communication path between the main and VPSS ARM?
Is there some more detailed document describing how the syslink code works?

What I would expect to see is standard mailbox functionality that is used in other
places as well. I gather that at the bottom there actually seems to be a mailbox
involved with syslink, but there also seems to be a lot of layers on top of that.

Regards,

	Hans

-- 
Hans Verkuil - video4linux developer - sponsored by TANDBERG

RE: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design

[Maupin, Chase]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hans Verkuil [mailto:hverkuil@xs4all.nl]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 1:52 AM
> To: Mauro Carvalho Chehab; laurent.pinchart@ideasonboard.com
> Cc: Maupin, Chase; sakari.ailus@maxwell.research.nokia.com;
> vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com - This list is to discuss the VPSS driver
> design (May contain non-TIers); linux-media@vger.kernel.org
> Subject: Re: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design
> 
> On Monday 08 February 2010 21:23:00 Mauro Carvalho Chehab wrote:
> > Maupin, Chase wrote:
> > > All,
> > >
> > > Texas Instruments (TI) is working on the design for the V4L2 capture
> and display drivers for our next generation system-on-chip (SoC) processor
> and would like to solicit your feedback.  Our new SoCs have been improved
> to allow for higher video resolutions and greater frame rates.  To this
> end the display hardware has been moved to a separate processing block
> called the video processing subsystem (VPSS).  The VPSS will be running a
> firmware image that controls the capture/display hardware and services
> requests from one or more host processors.
> > >
> > > Moving to a remote processor for the processing of video input and
> output data requires that commands to control the hardware be passed to
> this processing block using some form of inter-processor communication
> (IPC).  TI would like to solicit your feedback on proposal for the V4L2
> driver design to get a feel for whether or not this design would be
> accepted into the Linux kernel.  To this end we have put together an
> overview of the design and usage on our wiki at
> http://wiki.davincidsp.com/index.php/Video_Processing_Subsystem_Driver_Des
> ign.  We would greatly appreciate feedback from community members on the
> acceptability of our driver design.
> > >
> > > If you have additional questions or need more information please feel
> free to contact us (we have setup a mailing list at
> vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com) so we can answer them.
> > >
> >
> > Hi Chase,
> >
> > I'm not sure if I got all the details on your proposal, so let me try to
> give my
> > understanding.
> >
> > First of all, for normal usage (e.g. capturing a stream or sending an
> stream
> > to an output device), the driver should work with only the standard V4L2
> API.
> > I'm assuming that the driver will provide this capability.
> >
> > I understand that, being a SoC hardware, there are much more that can be
> done
> > than just doing the normal stream capture/output, already supported by
> V4L2 API.
> >
> > For such advanced usages, we're open to a proposal to enhance the
> existing API
> > to support the needs. There are some important aspects that need to be
> considered
> > when designing any Linux userspace API's:
> 
> The full functionality of this device can be handled by the proposals made
> during
> last year's LPC and that are currently being implemented/prototyped for
> omap3.
> That's no coincidence, by the way :-)

Our initial goal is to enable the current V4L2 APIs and functionality that exist today and then to continue working to add new features that use new functionality as it becomes available.  Of course we will be working with the V4L2 community on these features.

> 
> >
> > 	1) kernel-userspace API's are forever. So, they need to be designed
> in
> > a way that new technology changes won't break the old API;
> >
> > 	2) API's are meant to be generic. So, they needed to be designed in
> a way
> > that, if another hardware with similar features require an API, the
> planned one
> > should fit;
> >
> > 	3) The API's should be, as much as possible, independent of the
> hardware
> > architecture. You'll see that even low-level architecture dependent
> stuff, like
> > bus drivers are designed in a way that they are not bound to a
> particular hardware,
> > but instead provide the same common methods to interact with the
> hardware to other
> > device drivers.
> >
> > That's said, it would be interesting if you could give us a more deep
> detail on
> > what kind of functionalities and how do you think you'll be implementing
> them.
> 
> For me the core issue will be the communication between the main ARM and
> the ARM
> controlling the VPSS. Looking at the syslink part of the git tree it all
> looks
> way overengineered to me. In particular the multicore_ipc directory. Is
> all that
> code involved in setting up the communication path between the main and
> VPSS ARM?
> Is there some more detailed document describing how the syslink code
> works?

Agreed.  The most important aspect that we are hoping to get feedback on is using the syslink notify IPC for communication between the cores.  In this use case much of the functionality of syslink is un-needed.  The focus for this driver will be on using simple IPC where events are registered to send data between the host MCU and the VPSS.  I'll get someone from the syslink team to comment here with more details but the basic idea is that the host MCU and the VPSS will have an event configured for handling requests.  When the host MCU wants to sent a request to the VPSS it will create a command structure and pass a reference to that structure by using the sendEvent API.  The sendEvent API will require that an event number be passed and a pointer to the command structure.

> 
> What I would expect to see is standard mailbox functionality that is used
> in other
> places as well. I gather that at the bottom there actually seems to be a
> mailbox
> involved with syslink, but there also seems to be a lot of layers on top
> of that.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 	Hans
> 
> --
> Hans Verkuil - video4linux developer - sponsored by TANDBERG

RE: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design

[Maupin, Chase]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hans Verkuil [mailto:hverkuil@xs4all.nl]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 1:52 AM
> To: Mauro Carvalho Chehab; laurent.pinchart@ideasonboard.com
> Cc: Maupin, Chase; sakari.ailus@maxwell.research.nokia.com;
> vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com - This list is to discuss the VPSS driver
> design (May contain non-TIers); linux-media@vger.kernel.org
> Subject: Re: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design
> 
> On Monday 08 February 2010 21:23:00 Mauro Carvalho Chehab wrote:
> > Maupin, Chase wrote:
> > > All,
> > >
> > > Texas Instruments (TI) is working on the design for the V4L2 capture
> and display drivers for our next generation system-on-chip (SoC) processor
> and would like to solicit your feedback.  Our new SoCs have been improved
> to allow for higher video resolutions and greater frame rates.  To this
> end the display hardware has been moved to a separate processing block
> called the video processing subsystem (VPSS).  The VPSS will be running a
> firmware image that controls the capture/display hardware and services
> requests from one or more host processors.
> > >
> > > Moving to a remote processor for the processing of video input and
> output data requires that commands to control the hardware be passed to
> this processing block using some form of inter-processor communication
> (IPC).  TI would like to solicit your feedback on proposal for the V4L2
> driver design to get a feel for whether or not this design would be
> accepted into the Linux kernel.  To this end we have put together an
> overview of the design and usage on our wiki at
> http://wiki.davincidsp.com/index.php/Video_Processing_Subsystem_Driver_Des
> ign.  We would greatly appreciate feedback from community members on the
> acceptability of our driver design.
> > >
> > > If you have additional questions or need more information please feel
> free to contact us (we have setup a mailing list at
> vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com) so we can answer them.
> > >
> >
> > Hi Chase,
> >
> > I'm not sure if I got all the details on your proposal, so let me try to
> give my
> > understanding.
> >
> > First of all, for normal usage (e.g. capturing a stream or sending an
> stream
> > to an output device), the driver should work with only the standard V4L2
> API.
> > I'm assuming that the driver will provide this capability.
> >
> > I understand that, being a SoC hardware, there are much more that can be
> done
> > than just doing the normal stream capture/output, already supported by
> V4L2 API.
> >
> > For such advanced usages, we're open to a proposal to enhance the
> existing API
> > to support the needs. There are some important aspects that need to be
> considered
> > when designing any Linux userspace API's:
> 
> The full functionality of this device can be handled by the proposals made
> during
> last year's LPC and that are currently being implemented/prototyped for
> omap3.
> That's no coincidence, by the way :-)
> 
> >
> > 	1) kernel-userspace API's are forever. So, they need to be designed
> in
> > a way that new technology changes won't break the old API;
> >
> > 	2) API's are meant to be generic. So, they needed to be designed in
> a way
> > that, if another hardware with similar features require an API, the
> planned one
> > should fit;
> >
> > 	3) The API's should be, as much as possible, independent of the
> hardware
> > architecture. You'll see that even low-level architecture dependent
> stuff, like
> > bus drivers are designed in a way that they are not bound to a
> particular hardware,
> > but instead provide the same common methods to interact with the
> hardware to other
> > device drivers.
> >
> > That's said, it would be interesting if you could give us a more deep
> detail on
> > what kind of functionalities and how do you think you'll be implementing
> them.
> 
> For me the core issue will be the communication between the main ARM and
> the ARM
> controlling the VPSS. Looking at the syslink part of the git tree it all
> looks
> way overengineered to me. In particular the multicore_ipc directory. Is
> all that
> code involved in setting up the communication path between the main and
> VPSS ARM?
> Is there some more detailed document describing how the syslink code
> works?

I uploaded a preliminary version of the syslink User's Guide to the wiki page in the syslink section.  You can find the pdf at http://wiki.davincidsp.com/images/3/30/Sprugo6a.pdf.  Section 3.7 covers the Notify functionality and usage.

Please note that for these video drivers much of the communication settings would be static (i.e. the even number).  This configuration would be done by the driver and would not require the user to set it up.

> 
> What I would expect to see is standard mailbox functionality that is used
> in other
> places as well. I gather that at the bottom there actually seems to be a
> mailbox
> involved with syslink, but there also seems to be a lot of layers on top
> of that.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 	Hans
> 
> --
> Hans Verkuil - video4linux developer - sponsored by TANDBERG

RE: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design

[Maupin, Chase]

Hans,

Some follow-up from the syslink team about the driver code in the git tree.

The only code to be referred on omapzoom that will actually be in the kernel is the Notify module. All the other code in multicore_ipc will actually move to user-side. The Notify module gives additional functionality over the basic mailbox driver to abstract the single physical event into multiple logical events. This enables multiple clients (one of which is the DSS driver) to use the single physical interrupt for multiple different purposes in a fully modular manner.

Sincerely,
Chase Maupin
Software Applications
Catalog DSP Products
e-mail: chase.maupin@ti.com
phone: (281) 274-3285

For support:
Forums - http://community.ti.com/forums/
Wiki - http://wiki.davincidsp.com/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Hans Verkuil [mailto:hverkuil@xs4all.nl]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 1:52 AM
> To: Mauro Carvalho Chehab; laurent.pinchart@ideasonboard.com
> Cc: Maupin, Chase; sakari.ailus@maxwell.research.nokia.com;
> vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com - This list is to discuss the VPSS driver
> design (May contain non-TIers); linux-media@vger.kernel.org
> Subject: Re: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design
> 
> On Monday 08 February 2010 21:23:00 Mauro Carvalho Chehab wrote:
> > Maupin, Chase wrote:
> > > All,
> > >
> > > Texas Instruments (TI) is working on the design for the V4L2 capture
> and display drivers for our next generation system-on-chip (SoC) processor
> and would like to solicit your feedback.  Our new SoCs have been improved
> to allow for higher video resolutions and greater frame rates.  To this
> end the display hardware has been moved to a separate processing block
> called the video processing subsystem (VPSS).  The VPSS will be running a
> firmware image that controls the capture/display hardware and services
> requests from one or more host processors.
> > >
> > > Moving to a remote processor for the processing of video input and
> output data requires that commands to control the hardware be passed to
> this processing block using some form of inter-processor communication
> (IPC).  TI would like to solicit your feedback on proposal for the V4L2
> driver design to get a feel for whether or not this design would be
> accepted into the Linux kernel.  To this end we have put together an
> overview of the design and usage on our wiki at
> http://wiki.davincidsp.com/index.php/Video_Processing_Subsystem_Driver_Des
> ign.  We would greatly appreciate feedback from community members on the
> acceptability of our driver design.
> > >
> > > If you have additional questions or need more information please feel
> free to contact us (we have setup a mailing list at
> vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com) so we can answer them.
> > >
> >
> > Hi Chase,
> >
> > I'm not sure if I got all the details on your proposal, so let me try to
> give my
> > understanding.
> >
> > First of all, for normal usage (e.g. capturing a stream or sending an
> stream
> > to an output device), the driver should work with only the standard V4L2
> API.
> > I'm assuming that the driver will provide this capability.
> >
> > I understand that, being a SoC hardware, there are much more that can be
> done
> > than just doing the normal stream capture/output, already supported by
> V4L2 API.
> >
> > For such advanced usages, we're open to a proposal to enhance the
> existing API
> > to support the needs. There are some important aspects that need to be
> considered
> > when designing any Linux userspace API's:
> 
> The full functionality of this device can be handled by the proposals made
> during
> last year's LPC and that are currently being implemented/prototyped for
> omap3.
> That's no coincidence, by the way :-)
> 
> >
> > 	1) kernel-userspace API's are forever. So, they need to be designed
> in
> > a way that new technology changes won't break the old API;
> >
> > 	2) API's are meant to be generic. So, they needed to be designed in
> a way
> > that, if another hardware with similar features require an API, the
> planned one
> > should fit;
> >
> > 	3) The API's should be, as much as possible, independent of the
> hardware
> > architecture. You'll see that even low-level architecture dependent
> stuff, like
> > bus drivers are designed in a way that they are not bound to a
> particular hardware,
> > but instead provide the same common methods to interact with the
> hardware to other
> > device drivers.
> >
> > That's said, it would be interesting if you could give us a more deep
> detail on
> > what kind of functionalities and how do you think you'll be implementing
> them.
> 
> For me the core issue will be the communication between the main ARM and
> the ARM
> controlling the VPSS. Looking at the syslink part of the git tree it all
> looks
> way overengineered to me. In particular the multicore_ipc directory. Is
> all that
> code involved in setting up the communication path between the main and
> VPSS ARM?
> Is there some more detailed document describing how the syslink code
> works?
> 
> What I would expect to see is standard mailbox functionality that is used
> in other
> places as well. I gather that at the bottom there actually seems to be a
> mailbox
> involved with syslink, but there also seems to be a lot of layers on top
> of that.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> 	Hans
> 
> --
> Hans Verkuil - video4linux developer - sponsored by TANDBERG

Re: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design

[Hans Verkuil]

On Wednesday 24 February 2010 15:34:19 Maupin, Chase wrote:
> Hans,
> 
> Some follow-up from the syslink team about the driver code in the git tree.
> 
> The only code to be referred on omapzoom that will actually be in the kernel 
is the Notify module. All the other code in multicore_ipc will actually move 
to user-side. The Notify module gives additional functionality over the basic 
mailbox driver to abstract the single physical event into multiple logical 
events. This enables multiple clients (one of which is the DSS driver) to use 
the single physical interrupt for multiple different purposes in a fully 
modular manner.

Hi Chase,

That is good news. Will it also switch to the standard linux mailbox code? I 
saw a patch on the omap mailinglist recently that replaced the DSPBRIDGE 
mailbox code with the kernel mailbox code.

I'm not sure whether this is applicable to the Notify code as well, but if it 
is, then that seems a sensible move.

Regards,

	Hans

> 
> Sincerely,
> Chase Maupin
> Software Applications
> Catalog DSP Products
> e-mail: chase.maupin@ti.com
> phone: (281) 274-3285
> 
> For support:
> Forums - http://community.ti.com/forums/
> Wiki - http://wiki.davincidsp.com/
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Hans Verkuil [mailto:hverkuil@xs4all.nl]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 09, 2010 1:52 AM
> > To: Mauro Carvalho Chehab; laurent.pinchart@ideasonboard.com
> > Cc: Maupin, Chase; sakari.ailus@maxwell.research.nokia.com;
> > vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com - This list is to discuss the VPSS driver
> > design (May contain non-TIers); linux-media@vger.kernel.org
> > Subject: Re: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design
> > 
> > On Monday 08 February 2010 21:23:00 Mauro Carvalho Chehab wrote:
> > > Maupin, Chase wrote:
> > > > All,
> > > >
> > > > Texas Instruments (TI) is working on the design for the V4L2 capture
> > and display drivers for our next generation system-on-chip (SoC) processor
> > and would like to solicit your feedback.  Our new SoCs have been improved
> > to allow for higher video resolutions and greater frame rates.  To this
> > end the display hardware has been moved to a separate processing block
> > called the video processing subsystem (VPSS).  The VPSS will be running a
> > firmware image that controls the capture/display hardware and services
> > requests from one or more host processors.
> > > >
> > > > Moving to a remote processor for the processing of video input and
> > output data requires that commands to control the hardware be passed to
> > this processing block using some form of inter-processor communication
> > (IPC).  TI would like to solicit your feedback on proposal for the V4L2
> > driver design to get a feel for whether or not this design would be
> > accepted into the Linux kernel.  To this end we have put together an
> > overview of the design and usage on our wiki at
> > http://wiki.davincidsp.com/index.php/Video_Processing_Subsystem_Driver_Des
> > ign.  We would greatly appreciate feedback from community members on the
> > acceptability of our driver design.
> > > >
> > > > If you have additional questions or need more information please feel
> > free to contact us (we have setup a mailing list at
> > vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com) so we can answer them.
> > > >
> > >
> > > Hi Chase,
> > >
> > > I'm not sure if I got all the details on your proposal, so let me try to
> > give my
> > > understanding.
> > >
> > > First of all, for normal usage (e.g. capturing a stream or sending an
> > stream
> > > to an output device), the driver should work with only the standard V4L2
> > API.
> > > I'm assuming that the driver will provide this capability.
> > >
> > > I understand that, being a SoC hardware, there are much more that can be
> > done
> > > than just doing the normal stream capture/output, already supported by
> > V4L2 API.
> > >
> > > For such advanced usages, we're open to a proposal to enhance the
> > existing API
> > > to support the needs. There are some important aspects that need to be
> > considered
> > > when designing any Linux userspace API's:
> > 
> > The full functionality of this device can be handled by the proposals made
> > during
> > last year's LPC and that are currently being implemented/prototyped for
> > omap3.
> > That's no coincidence, by the way :-)
> > 
> > >
> > > 	1) kernel-userspace API's are forever. So, they need to be designed
> > in
> > > a way that new technology changes won't break the old API;
> > >
> > > 	2) API's are meant to be generic. So, they needed to be designed in
> > a way
> > > that, if another hardware with similar features require an API, the
> > planned one
> > > should fit;
> > >
> > > 	3) The API's should be, as much as possible, independent of the
> > hardware
> > > architecture. You'll see that even low-level architecture dependent
> > stuff, like
> > > bus drivers are designed in a way that they are not bound to a
> > particular hardware,
> > > but instead provide the same common methods to interact with the
> > hardware to other
> > > device drivers.
> > >
> > > That's said, it would be interesting if you could give us a more deep
> > detail on
> > > what kind of functionalities and how do you think you'll be implementing
> > them.
> > 
> > For me the core issue will be the communication between the main ARM and
> > the ARM
> > controlling the VPSS. Looking at the syslink part of the git tree it all
> > looks
> > way overengineered to me. In particular the multicore_ipc directory. Is
> > all that
> > code involved in setting up the communication path between the main and
> > VPSS ARM?
> > Is there some more detailed document describing how the syslink code
> > works?
> > 
> > What I would expect to see is standard mailbox functionality that is used
> > in other
> > places as well. I gather that at the bottom there actually seems to be a
> > mailbox
> > involved with syslink, but there also seems to be a lot of layers on top
> > of that.
> > 
> > Regards,
> > 
> > 	Hans
> > 
> > --
> > Hans Verkuil - video4linux developer - sponsored by TANDBERG
> 

Re: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design

[Laurent Pinchart]

Hi Chase,

On Monday 08 February 2010 16:08:37 Maupin, Chase wrote:
> All,
> 
> Texas Instruments (TI) is working on the design for the V4L2 capture and
> display drivers for our next generation system-on-chip (SoC) processor and
> would like to solicit your feedback.

Thank you very much for requesting feedback on the system design. I personally 
appreciate this, and I'm pretty sure that the feeling is shared by most of the 
Linux kernel developers.

> If you have additional questions or need more information please feel free
> to contact us (we have setup a mailing list at
> vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com) so we can answer them.

I'll answer here as the instructions provided in the wiki to subscribe to the 
vpss_driver_design mailing list are incorrect (http://list.ti.com/ isn't 
accessible, the name has no A record associated to it). I've CC'ed the list in 
case subscription wouldn't be required to post.

1. Multi-core design
--------------------

OMAP3 was already a dual-core system, OMAP4 (I assume all this is about the 
OMAP4 processors family) seems to push the concept one step further.

With its heterogeneous multi-core design (ARM master CPU and slave DSPs), the 
OMAP architecture delivers high performances at the cost of higher development 
time and effort as users need to write software for completely different 
cores, usually using different toolchains. This is in my opinion a good (or at 
least acceptable) trade-off between CPU power, development time and power 
consumption (DSPs being more efficient at signal processing at the cost of a 
higher development complexity).

I'm a bit puzzled, however, by how the VPSS MCU will help improving the 
situation compared to the OMAP3 design. The VPSS MCU will provide an API that 
will expose a fixed subset of the hardware capabilities. This is only a guess, 
but I suppose the firmware will be fairly generic, and that TI will provide 
customized versions to big customers tailored for their needs and use cases. 
The "official" kernel drivers will then need to be changed, and those changes 
will have no chance to be accepted in the mainline kernel. This will lead to 
forks and fragmentation of the developers base among the big players in the 
embedded markets. What will be the compensation for that ? How will the VPSS 
MCU provide higher performances than the OMAP3 model ?

2. VPSS firmware and API
------------------------

The wiki doesn't state under which license the VPSS MCU firmware will be 
released, but I suppose it won't be open sourced. The VPSS API, which seems 
from the information provided in the wiki to mimic the V4L2 API at least for 
video capture and output, will thus be controlled by TI and pretty much set 
into stone. This means future extensions to the V4L2 API that will provide 
more control over the devices to userspace applications will be stuck with 
access to a limited subset of the hardware capabilities, and users will not be 
able to use the full potential of the system.

This goes in the opposite direction of what the Linux media community is 
trying to do today. For the past 6 months now we have been working on 
additions to the V4L2 subsystem to create a complete media framework, targeted 
at both desktop and embedded use cases. The new APIs that we are developing 
will let userspace applications discover the internal topology of the hardware 
and control every parameter in the video pipeline(s). This include dynamic 
reconfiguration of the pipeline(s),  completely under control of userspace. 
With a VPSS API that mimics today's V4L2 API, the OMAP4 video pipeline will 
look from a userspace perspective as an old-school V4L2 device, a single black 
box with a few controls to accommodate common use cases.

Regardless of the firmware license, we need a way to control hardware without 
any limitation from the ARM processor. This includes explicit configuration of 
the pipeline, and access to all configuration parameters of all hardware 
processing blocks.

3. VPSS API usage from kernel space
-----------------------------------

The wiki mentions that Linux kernel drivers will have access to functions that 
convert "standard kernel data structures" to VPSS data structures as required 
by the VPSS firmware. I don't think that's a good idea. Please let kernel 
drivers do the conversion themselves. Linux kernel drivers know about their 
data structures better than the VPSS library/middleware/layer/whatever will 
do. Instead of providing such conversion functions, I would like to see the 
VPSS data structures properly documented so that kernel driver developers will 
know what information the VPSS MCU expects. Filling the VPSS data structures 
from "standard kernel data structures" should be left to individual drivers 
and/or subsystems.

As explained above, I'm really concerned about the following usage example:

"Driver calls VPSS set_format function and passes the VPSS format data 
structure. The VPSS set_format function will then:
 - Create a message structure for sending over the Notify IPC 
 - Set the command element with the set format command value 
 - Set the arguements element to the address of the VPSS format data structure 
 - Call the syslink Notify kernel API and send the address of the message 
structure to the VPSS"

This means the VPSS MCU will expose a single black box to the host, making it 
impossible to use the full capabilities of the hardware with future V4L2 
extensions. Those extensions are developed for a reason. V4L2 simply doesn't 
scale in the light of future (and even today's) embedded hardware. If the VPSS 
API mimics V4L2 it will suffer from the same problem.

One possible solution would be to open-source the VPSS MCU firmware, allowing 
the Linux community to expose capabilities needed by future V4L2 extensions 
through the VPSS API.

4. VPSS API usage from userspace
--------------------------------

I have no specific comment about the userspace API usage, but I would like to 
know how you plan to arbitrate access to the hardware from both kernelspace 
(through a V4L2 driver) and userspace. Will there be a way for kernel drivers 
to take ownership of specific hardware parts and disallow userspace 
applications from issuing any message to those parts ? The design must be 
carefully reviewed to spot possible race conditions and even security issues.

5. Syslink
----------

I still need to review the syslink code. As stated by Hans Verkuil, from a 
quick look at the source tree the syslink module looks over-engineered. To 
communicate with the VPSS MCU all that seems to be needed is a mailbox-like 
interface.

Furthermore, the mailbox API should probably not be OMAP4-specific. Isn't 
there already a mailbox API in Linux ? If not I think one should be developed 
first, and then syslink should be built on top of it. The best way to see a 
driver being rejected when submitted to mainline is to write a huge pile of 
code and then push it in one go.



As a conclusion, I believe that the best chance to get drivers into mainline 
and to get developers excited about the product (both are related in my 
experience) is to be as open as possible and play by the rules of the Linux 
kernel community. This means that:

- Big subsystems such as syslink should be broken down to small pieces, and 
every piece, especially the low-level ones, must be carefully designed with 
the whole Linux kernel in mind, not only the OMAP4 platform. APIs should be 
made generic when possible.

- The VPSS MCU firmware should be properly documented, developed in the open 
and under an open-source license.

Those two steps should be performed in tight cooperation with the Linux kernel 
community.

-- 
Best regards,

Laurent Pinchart

RE: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design

[Maupin, Chase]

Laurent,

First let me thank you for taking time to review this.  I have made comments below to address your concerns.

Sincerely,
Chase Maupin
Software Applications
Catalog DSP Products
e-mail: chase.maupin@ti.com
phone: (281) 274-3285

For support:
Forums - http://community.ti.com/forums/
Wiki - http://wiki.davincidsp.com/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Laurent Pinchart [mailto:laurent.pinchart@ideasonboard.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 7:23 PM
> To: Maupin, Chase
> Cc: Hans Verkuil; sakari.ailus@maxwell.research.nokia.com;
> mchehab@infradead.org; vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com - This list is to
> discuss the VPSS driver design (May contain non-TIers); linux-
> media@vger.kernel.org
> Subject: Re: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design
> 
> Hi Chase,
> 
> On Monday 08 February 2010 16:08:37 Maupin, Chase wrote:
> > All,
> >
> > Texas Instruments (TI) is working on the design for the V4L2 capture and
> > display drivers for our next generation system-on-chip (SoC) processor
> and
> > would like to solicit your feedback.
> 
> Thank you very much for requesting feedback on the system design. I
> personally
> appreciate this, and I'm pretty sure that the feeling is shared by most of
> the
> Linux kernel developers.
> 
> > If you have additional questions or need more information please feel
> free
> > to contact us (we have setup a mailing list at
> > vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com) so we can answer them.
> 
> I'll answer here as the instructions provided in the wiki to subscribe to
> the
> vpss_driver_design mailing list are incorrect (http://list.ti.com/ isn't
> accessible, the name has no A record associated to it). I've CC'ed the
> list in
> case subscription wouldn't be required to post.

The page for subscribing to the list requires a my.TI login which you can setup at https://myportal.ti.com/portal/dt?provider=TIPassLoginSingleContainer&lt=myti&j5=2&j3=1&goto=https%3A%2F%2Fmy.ti.com%3A443%2Fcgi-bin%2Fhome.pl%3FDCMP%3DTIHeaderTracking%26HQS%3DOther%2BOT%2Bhdr_my_ti.  However, your reply to the list should be fine without subscribing.

> 
> 1. Multi-core design
> --------------------
> 
> OMAP3 was already a dual-core system, OMAP4 (I assume all this is about
> the
> OMAP4 processors family) seems to push the concept one step further.
> 
> With its heterogeneous multi-core design (ARM master CPU and slave DSPs),
> the
> OMAP architecture delivers high performances at the cost of higher
> development
> time and effort as users need to write software for completely different
> cores, usually using different toolchains. This is in my opinion a good
> (or at
> least acceptable) trade-off between CPU power, development time and power
> consumption (DSPs being more efficient at signal processing at the cost of
> a
> higher development complexity).
> 
> I'm a bit puzzled, however, by how the VPSS MCU will help improving the
> situation compared to the OMAP3 design. The VPSS MCU will provide an API
> that
> will expose a fixed subset of the hardware capabilities. This is only a
> guess,
> but I suppose the firmware will be fairly generic, and that TI will
> provide
> customized versions to big customers tailored for their needs and use
> cases.
> The "official" kernel drivers will then need to be changed, and those
> changes
> will have no chance to be accepted in the mainline kernel. This will lead
> to
> forks and fragmentation of the developers base among the big players in
> the
> embedded markets. What will be the compensation for that ? How will the
> VPSS
> MCU provide higher performances than the OMAP3 model ?

The firmware on the VPSS MCU will be able to configure/control all of the functionality that the VPSS MCU has and will be the same for all customers.  The only part that may change is the proxy driver of the firmware.  The proxy driver is the piece that will be responsible for taking the commands from the driver and telling the firmware to execute the operation.  The initial version of the proxy will support all the standard V4L2 operations.  As new operations (such as on the fly video scaling) are added to the V4L2 API the firmware may require an update to the proxy driver to handle these requests, but the underlying code will remain the same.  

For customers who wish to use features of the VPSS that are not supported by the current V4L2 APIs there are OpenMax components being developed that can also talk to the VPSS and support the full set of features of the VPSS.  These components allow for additional use cases such as transferring data directly from other processing blocks such as the DSP to the VPSS without ever returning to the host processor (tunneling).  However, the OpenMax API does not integrate with most existing software such as applications that use V4L2 drivers for video capture and display.

What this means is that we will not be creating a bunch of one-off drivers for customers who want to use features that are not part of the V4L2 APIs.  Instead those customers will be able to use the OpenMax components.  The Linux V4L2 drivers will focus on enabling customers who are using the standard V4L2 functionalities.  As the V4L2 API is expanded the only changes that would be required would be to the V4L2 driver to implement the new V4L2 APIs and potentially to the proxy driver on the VPSS firmware to handle interpreting the new commands.

> 
> 2. VPSS firmware and API
> ------------------------
> 
> The wiki doesn't state under which license the VPSS MCU firmware will be
> released, but I suppose it won't be open sourced. The VPSS API, which
> seems
> from the information provided in the wiki to mimic the V4L2 API at least
> for
> video capture and output, will thus be controlled by TI and pretty much
> set
> into stone. This means future extensions to the V4L2 API that will provide
> more control over the devices to userspace applications will be stuck with
> access to a limited subset of the hardware capabilities, and users will
> not be
> able to use the full potential of the system.

I'll let one of the engineers from the VPSS firmware team comment on the license here.  As of now my understanding is that the firmware will be binary only.  The VPSS API will define a full set of capabilities, but which APIs will be handled by the proxy driver will be initially limited to the existing V4L2 features.  Thus while you could add new VPSS API calls to the V4L2 driver the proxy on the VPSS MCU may not know how to handle these calls.  As we go forward we will add new calls to the proxy driver.  I'll let the VPSS firmware team comment more here but this is good feedback on the need to at least let people extend the proxy driver on the VPSS to handle future extensions.

> 
> This goes in the opposite direction of what the Linux media community is
> trying to do today. For the past 6 months now we have been working on
> additions to the V4L2 subsystem to create a complete media framework,
> targeted
> at both desktop and embedded use cases. The new APIs that we are
> developing
> will let userspace applications discover the internal topology of the
> hardware
> and control every parameter in the video pipeline(s). This include dynamic
> reconfiguration of the pipeline(s),  completely under control of userspace.
> With a VPSS API that mimics today's V4L2 API, the OMAP4 video pipeline
> will
> look from a userspace perspective as an old-school V4L2 device, a single
> black
> box with a few controls to accommodate common use cases.

Again, like I stated above the VPSS API will be capable of exposing all of the functionality of the VPSS hardware.  The limitation comes with the proxy driver and what commands it interprets.  This will need to be expanded as new features are added to the Linux kernel.  Basically the VPSS API is full featured but the portions of it that are exposed to Linux are initially limited to the current V4L2 APIs with plans to expand going forward.  Your feedback indicates that we need to find a way that Linux developers can expand which APIs are exposed to Linux themselves an not need to rely on TI to do so.

> 
> Regardless of the firmware license, we need a way to control hardware
> without
> any limitation from the ARM processor. This includes explicit
> configuration of
> the pipeline, and access to all configuration parameters of all hardware
> processing blocks.
> 
> 3. VPSS API usage from kernel space
> -----------------------------------
> 
> The wiki mentions that Linux kernel drivers will have access to functions
> that
> convert "standard kernel data structures" to VPSS data structures as
> required
> by the VPSS firmware. I don't think that's a good idea. Please let kernel
> drivers do the conversion themselves. Linux kernel drivers know about
> their
> data structures better than the VPSS library/middleware/layer/whatever
> will
> do. Instead of providing such conversion functions, I would like to see
> the
> VPSS data structures properly documented so that kernel driver developers
> will
> know what information the VPSS MCU expects. Filling the VPSS data
> structures
> from "standard kernel data structures" should be left to individual
> drivers
> and/or subsystems.

Agreed.  What I was trying to convey here is that we will have functions in the Linux kernel drivers that will convert the kernel data structures to VPSS data structures.  These functions will be part of the drivers.  The intent was that if a V4L2 capture and display driver both take in the same kind of data structure (like a buffer descriptor) that they could share the function that converts that to a VPSS data structure.  In the end it is still up to each driver to process the input it is given and package it appropriately for sending to the VPSS.  The VPSS data structures will be properly documented and will not be hidden from kernel developers.

> 
> As explained above, I'm really concerned about the following usage
> example:
> 
> "Driver calls VPSS set_format function and passes the VPSS format data
> structure. The VPSS set_format function will then:
>  - Create a message structure for sending over the Notify IPC
>  - Set the command element with the set format command value
>  - Set the arguements element to the address of the VPSS format data
> structure
>  - Call the syslink Notify kernel API and send the address of the message
> structure to the VPSS"
> 
> This means the VPSS MCU will expose a single black box to the host, making
> it
> impossible to use the full capabilities of the hardware with future V4L2
> extensions. Those extensions are developed for a reason. V4L2 simply
> doesn't
> scale in the light of future (and even today's) embedded hardware. If the
> VPSS
> API mimics V4L2 it will suffer from the same problem.

I think I addressed this above in stating that the VPSS API is fully featured.  During the initial development we will only expose a subset of the VPSS API as needed by the existing V4L2 API.  The list of VPSS APIs that are exposed will grow over time and we need to work out if there is a way to enable kernel developers to do this without relying on TI.

> 
> One possible solution would be to open-source the VPSS MCU firmware,
> allowing
> the Linux community to expose capabilities needed by future V4L2
> extensions
> through the VPSS API.

Agreed.

> 
> 4. VPSS API usage from userspace
> --------------------------------
> 
> I have no specific comment about the userspace API usage, but I would like
> to
> know how you plan to arbitrate access to the hardware from both
> kernelspace
> (through a V4L2 driver) and userspace. Will there be a way for kernel
> drivers
> to take ownership of specific hardware parts and disallow userspace
> applications from issuing any message to those parts ? The design must be
> carefully reviewed to spot possible race conditions and even security
> issues.

The VPSS firmware does the hardware arbitration.  If the kernel driver already has a video plane open then a user space application would not be able to open the same video plane.

> 
> 5. Syslink
> ----------
> 
> I still need to review the syslink code. As stated by Hans Verkuil, from a
> quick look at the source tree the syslink module looks over-engineered. To
> communicate with the VPSS MCU all that seems to be needed is a mailbox-
> like
> interface.
> 
> Furthermore, the mailbox API should probably not be OMAP4-specific. Isn't
> there already a mailbox API in Linux ? If not I think one should be
> developed
> first, and then syslink should be built on top of it. The best way to see
> a
> driver being rejected when submitted to mainline is to write a huge pile
> of
> code and then push it in one go.

I'll need to let the syslink team comment on this.  I know they are reworking some of the syslink code such that most of the advanced usage is done from user space and only the basic message passing is done in the kernel.  I'm not sure if they have been working on a generic mailbox interface.  The syslink Notify module being part of the Linux kernel is a requirement for us and they are actively working on getting it into the kernel.

Mugdha, can someone from the syslink team comment here?

> 
> 
> 
> As a conclusion, I believe that the best chance to get drivers into
> mainline
> and to get developers excited about the product (both are related in my
> experience) is to be as open as possible and play by the rules of the
> Linux
> kernel community. This means that:
> 
> - Big subsystems such as syslink should be broken down to small pieces,
> and
> every piece, especially the low-level ones, must be carefully designed
> with
> the whole Linux kernel in mind, not only the OMAP4 platform. APIs should
> be
> made generic when possible.
> 
> - The VPSS MCU firmware should be properly documented, developed in the
> open
> and under an open-source license.

Thanks for the guidance on this.  This is the kind of feedback we needed.

> 
> Those two steps should be performed in tight cooperation with the Linux
> kernel
> community.
> 
> --
> Best regards,
> 
> Laurent Pinchart

RE: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design

[Kamoolkar, Mugdha]

Chase, Laurent,

Sorry for the extreme delay in my response ...
>From the code available currently on omapzoom, our plans are to eventually have only the Notify module in kernel-space. All the other code in multicore_ipc will actually move to user-side. The Notify module gives additional functionality over the basic mailbox driver to abstract the single physical event into multiple logical events. This enables multiple clients (one of which is the DSS driver) to use the single physical interrupt for multiple different purposes in a fully modular manner. We will ensure that the kernel-side Notify module is fully integrated into the kernel in the proper way and still meets our functionality requirements, taking feedback from the community into account.

We are also making several changes in the APIs for all modules to make them much easier to use. A lot of the complexity as seen by the user will vanish underneath. This is still under progress, so it's not out on omapzoom yet, but will definitely be done.

As soon as this is done, we will work on moving most of the modules (except Notify) fully from kernel->user space. Once our kernel->user work has at least gone far enough ahead to allow us to make a design proposal, we will push it out for review to get your valuable feedback.

I have also looped in the TI engineers who have worked on and pushed out the omapzoom SysLink code.

Regards,
Mugdha

-----Original Message-----
From: Maupin, Chase
Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 10:17 PM
To: Laurent Pinchart
Cc: Hans Verkuil; sakari.ailus@maxwell.research.nokia.com; mchehab@infradead.org; vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com - This list is to discuss the VPSS driver design (May contain non-TIers); linux-media@vger.kernel.org; Kamoolkar, Mugdha
Subject: RE: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design

Laurent,

First let me thank you for taking time to review this.  I have made comments below to address your concerns.

Sincerely,
Chase Maupin
Software Applications
Catalog DSP Products
e-mail: chase.maupin@ti.com
phone: (281) 274-3285

For support:
Forums - http://community.ti.com/forums/
Wiki - http://wiki.davincidsp.com/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Laurent Pinchart [mailto:laurent.pinchart@ideasonboard.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 7:23 PM
> To: Maupin, Chase
> Cc: Hans Verkuil; sakari.ailus@maxwell.research.nokia.com;
> mchehab@infradead.org; vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com - This list is to
> discuss the VPSS driver design (May contain non-TIers); linux-
> media@vger.kernel.org
> Subject: Re: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design
>
> Hi Chase,
>
> On Monday 08 February 2010 16:08:37 Maupin, Chase wrote:
> > All,
> >
> > Texas Instruments (TI) is working on the design for the V4L2 capture and
> > display drivers for our next generation system-on-chip (SoC) processor
> and
> > would like to solicit your feedback.
>
> Thank you very much for requesting feedback on the system design. I
> personally
> appreciate this, and I'm pretty sure that the feeling is shared by most of
> the
> Linux kernel developers.
>
> > If you have additional questions or need more information please feel
> free
> > to contact us (we have setup a mailing list at
> > vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com) so we can answer them.
>
> I'll answer here as the instructions provided in the wiki to subscribe to
> the
> vpss_driver_design mailing list are incorrect (http://list.ti.com/ isn't
> accessible, the name has no A record associated to it). I've CC'ed the
> list in
> case subscription wouldn't be required to post.

The page for subscribing to the list requires a my.TI login which you can setup at https://myportal.ti.com/portal/dt?provider=TIPassLoginSingleContainer&lt=myti&j5=2&j3=1&goto=https%3A%2F%2Fmy.ti.com%3A443%2Fcgi-bin%2Fhome.pl%3FDCMP%3DTIHeaderTracking%26HQS%3DOther%2BOT%2Bhdr_my_ti.  However, your reply to the list should be fine without subscribing.

>
> 1. Multi-core design
> --------------------
>
> OMAP3 was already a dual-core system, OMAP4 (I assume all this is about
> the
> OMAP4 processors family) seems to push the concept one step further.
>
> With its heterogeneous multi-core design (ARM master CPU and slave DSPs),
> the
> OMAP architecture delivers high performances at the cost of higher
> development
> time and effort as users need to write software for completely different
> cores, usually using different toolchains. This is in my opinion a good
> (or at
> least acceptable) trade-off between CPU power, development time and power
> consumption (DSPs being more efficient at signal processing at the cost of
> a
> higher development complexity).
>
> I'm a bit puzzled, however, by how the VPSS MCU will help improving the
> situation compared to the OMAP3 design. The VPSS MCU will provide an API
> that
> will expose a fixed subset of the hardware capabilities. This is only a
> guess,
> but I suppose the firmware will be fairly generic, and that TI will
> provide
> customized versions to big customers tailored for their needs and use
> cases.
> The "official" kernel drivers will then need to be changed, and those
> changes
> will have no chance to be accepted in the mainline kernel. This will lead
> to
> forks and fragmentation of the developers base among the big players in
> the
> embedded markets. What will be the compensation for that ? How will the
> VPSS
> MCU provide higher performances than the OMAP3 model ?

The firmware on the VPSS MCU will be able to configure/control all of the functionality that the VPSS MCU has and will be the same for all customers.  The only part that may change is the proxy driver of the firmware.  The proxy driver is the piece that will be responsible for taking the commands from the driver and telling the firmware to execute the operation.  The initial version of the proxy will support all the standard V4L2 operations.  As new operations (such as on the fly video scaling) are added to the V4L2 API the firmware may require an update to the proxy driver to handle these requests, but the underlying code will remain the same.

For customers who wish to use features of the VPSS that are not supported by the current V4L2 APIs there are OpenMax components being developed that can also talk to the VPSS and support the full set of features of the VPSS.  These components allow for additional use cases such as transferring data directly from other processing blocks such as the DSP to the VPSS without ever returning to the host processor (tunneling).  However, the OpenMax API does not integrate with most existing software such as applications that use V4L2 drivers for video capture and display.

What this means is that we will not be creating a bunch of one-off drivers for customers who want to use features that are not part of the V4L2 APIs.  Instead those customers will be able to use the OpenMax components.  The Linux V4L2 drivers will focus on enabling customers who are using the standard V4L2 functionalities.  As the V4L2 API is expanded the only changes that would be required would be to the V4L2 driver to implement the new V4L2 APIs and potentially to the proxy driver on the VPSS firmware to handle interpreting the new commands.

>
> 2. VPSS firmware and API
> ------------------------
>
> The wiki doesn't state under which license the VPSS MCU firmware will be
> released, but I suppose it won't be open sourced. The VPSS API, which
> seems
> from the information provided in the wiki to mimic the V4L2 API at least
> for
> video capture and output, will thus be controlled by TI and pretty much
> set
> into stone. This means future extensions to the V4L2 API that will provide
> more control over the devices to userspace applications will be stuck with
> access to a limited subset of the hardware capabilities, and users will
> not be
> able to use the full potential of the system.

I'll let one of the engineers from the VPSS firmware team comment on the license here.  As of now my understanding is that the firmware will be binary only.  The VPSS API will define a full set of capabilities, but which APIs will be handled by the proxy driver will be initially limited to the existing V4L2 features.  Thus while you could add new VPSS API calls to the V4L2 driver the proxy on the VPSS MCU may not know how to handle these calls.  As we go forward we will add new calls to the proxy driver.  I'll let the VPSS firmware team comment more here but this is good feedback on the need to at least let people extend the proxy driver on the VPSS to handle future extensions.

>
> This goes in the opposite direction of what the Linux media community is
> trying to do today. For the past 6 months now we have been working on
> additions to the V4L2 subsystem to create a complete media framework,
> targeted
> at both desktop and embedded use cases. The new APIs that we are
> developing
> will let userspace applications discover the internal topology of the
> hardware
> and control every parameter in the video pipeline(s). This include dynamic
> reconfiguration of the pipeline(s),  completely under control of userspace.
> With a VPSS API that mimics today's V4L2 API, the OMAP4 video pipeline
> will
> look from a userspace perspective as an old-school V4L2 device, a single
> black
> box with a few controls to accommodate common use cases.

Again, like I stated above the VPSS API will be capable of exposing all of the functionality of the VPSS hardware.  The limitation comes with the proxy driver and what commands it interprets.  This will need to be expanded as new features are added to the Linux kernel.  Basically the VPSS API is full featured but the portions of it that are exposed to Linux are initially limited to the current V4L2 APIs with plans to expand going forward.  Your feedback indicates that we need to find a way that Linux developers can expand which APIs are exposed to Linux themselves an not need to rely on TI to do so.

>
> Regardless of the firmware license, we need a way to control hardware
> without
> any limitation from the ARM processor. This includes explicit
> configuration of
> the pipeline, and access to all configuration parameters of all hardware
> processing blocks.
>
> 3. VPSS API usage from kernel space
> -----------------------------------
>
> The wiki mentions that Linux kernel drivers will have access to functions
> that
> convert "standard kernel data structures" to VPSS data structures as
> required
> by the VPSS firmware. I don't think that's a good idea. Please let kernel
> drivers do the conversion themselves. Linux kernel drivers know about
> their
> data structures better than the VPSS library/middleware/layer/whatever
> will
> do. Instead of providing such conversion functions, I would like to see
> the
> VPSS data structures properly documented so that kernel driver developers
> will
> know what information the VPSS MCU expects. Filling the VPSS data
> structures
> from "standard kernel data structures" should be left to individual
> drivers
> and/or subsystems.

Agreed.  What I was trying to convey here is that we will have functions in the Linux kernel drivers that will convert the kernel data structures to VPSS data structures.  These functions will be part of the drivers.  The intent was that if a V4L2 capture and display driver both take in the same kind of data structure (like a buffer descriptor) that they could share the function that converts that to a VPSS data structure.  In the end it is still up to each driver to process the input it is given and package it appropriately for sending to the VPSS.  The VPSS data structures will be properly documented and will not be hidden from kernel developers.

>
> As explained above, I'm really concerned about the following usage
> example:
>
> "Driver calls VPSS set_format function and passes the VPSS format data
> structure. The VPSS set_format function will then:
>  - Create a message structure for sending over the Notify IPC
>  - Set the command element with the set format command value
>  - Set the arguements element to the address of the VPSS format data
> structure
>  - Call the syslink Notify kernel API and send the address of the message
> structure to the VPSS"
>
> This means the VPSS MCU will expose a single black box to the host, making
> it
> impossible to use the full capabilities of the hardware with future V4L2
> extensions. Those extensions are developed for a reason. V4L2 simply
> doesn't
> scale in the light of future (and even today's) embedded hardware. If the
> VPSS
> API mimics V4L2 it will suffer from the same problem.

I think I addressed this above in stating that the VPSS API is fully featured.  During the initial development we will only expose a subset of the VPSS API as needed by the existing V4L2 API.  The list of VPSS APIs that are exposed will grow over time and we need to work out if there is a way to enable kernel developers to do this without relying on TI.

>
> One possible solution would be to open-source the VPSS MCU firmware,
> allowing
> the Linux community to expose capabilities needed by future V4L2
> extensions
> through the VPSS API.

Agreed.

>
> 4. VPSS API usage from userspace
> --------------------------------
>
> I have no specific comment about the userspace API usage, but I would like
> to
> know how you plan to arbitrate access to the hardware from both
> kernelspace
> (through a V4L2 driver) and userspace. Will there be a way for kernel
> drivers
> to take ownership of specific hardware parts and disallow userspace
> applications from issuing any message to those parts ? The design must be
> carefully reviewed to spot possible race conditions and even security
> issues.

The VPSS firmware does the hardware arbitration.  If the kernel driver already has a video plane open then a user space application would not be able to open the same video plane.

>
> 5. Syslink
> ----------
>
> I still need to review the syslink code. As stated by Hans Verkuil, from a
> quick look at the source tree the syslink module looks over-engineered. To
> communicate with the VPSS MCU all that seems to be needed is a mailbox-
> like
> interface.
>
> Furthermore, the mailbox API should probably not be OMAP4-specific. Isn't
> there already a mailbox API in Linux ? If not I think one should be
> developed
> first, and then syslink should be built on top of it. The best way to see
> a
> driver being rejected when submitted to mainline is to write a huge pile
> of
> code and then push it in one go.

I'll need to let the syslink team comment on this.  I know they are reworking some of the syslink code such that most of the advanced usage is done from user space and only the basic message passing is done in the kernel.  I'm not sure if they have been working on a generic mailbox interface.  The syslink Notify module being part of the Linux kernel is a requirement for us and they are actively working on getting it into the kernel.

Mugdha, can someone from the syslink team comment here?

>
>
>
> As a conclusion, I believe that the best chance to get drivers into
> mainline
> and to get developers excited about the product (both are related in my
> experience) is to be as open as possible and play by the rules of the
> Linux
> kernel community. This means that:
>
> - Big subsystems such as syslink should be broken down to small pieces,
> and
> every piece, especially the low-level ones, must be carefully designed
> with
> the whole Linux kernel in mind, not only the OMAP4 platform. APIs should
> be
> made generic when possible.
>
> - The VPSS MCU firmware should be properly documented, developed in the
> open
> and under an open-source license.

Thanks for the guidance on this.  This is the kind of feedback we needed.

>
> Those two steps should be performed in tight cooperation with the Linux
> kernel
> community.
>
> --
> Best regards,
>
> Laurent Pinchart

RE: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design

[Maupin, Chase]

Laurent,

Some additional information from the syslink team.

Yes, the current Notify code is indeed going over the kernel mailbox code.
You can find this code in drivers/dsp/syslink/notify_ducatidriver/notify_ducati.c.

We have already pushed some mailbox patches specific to the new mailbox register set in OMAP4/Netra to kernel. These patches are available starting in 2.6.33. On our tree, we currently have some custom patches some of which were pushed to upstream and in the process of getting rolled into the upcoming 2.6.34 releases.

Sincerely,
Chase Maupin
Software Applications
Catalog DSP Products
e-mail: chase.maupin@ti.com
phone: (281) 274-3285

For support:
Forums - http://community.ti.com/forums/
Wiki - http://wiki.davincidsp.com/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Kamoolkar, Mugdha
> Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2010 9:05 PM
> To: Maupin, Chase; Laurent Pinchart
> Cc: Hans Verkuil; sakari.ailus@maxwell.research.nokia.com;
> mchehab@infradead.org; vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com - This list is to
> discuss the VPSS driver design (May contain non-TIers); linux-
> media@vger.kernel.org; Kanigeri, Hari; Shah, Bhavin; Anna, Suman
> Subject: RE: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design
>
> Chase, Laurent,
>
> Sorry for the extreme delay in my response ...
> From the code available currently on omapzoom, our plans are to eventually
> have only the Notify module in kernel-space. All the other code in
> multicore_ipc will actually move to user-side. The Notify module gives
> additional functionality over the basic mailbox driver to abstract the
> single physical event into multiple logical events. This enables multiple
> clients (one of which is the DSS driver) to use the single physical
> interrupt for multiple different purposes in a fully modular manner. We
> will ensure that the kernel-side Notify module is fully integrated into
> the kernel in the proper way and still meets our functionality
> requirements, taking feedback from the community into account.
>
> We are also making several changes in the APIs for all modules to make
> them much easier to use. A lot of the complexity as seen by the user will
> vanish underneath. This is still under progress, so it's not out on
> omapzoom yet, but will definitely be done.
>
>
> As soon as this is done, we will work on moving most of the modules
> (except Notify) fully from kernel->user space. Once our kernel->user work
> has at least gone far enough ahead to allow us to make a design proposal,
> we will push it out for review to get your valuable feedback.
>
> I have also looped in the TI engineers who have worked on and pushed out
> the omapzoom SysLink code.
>
> Regards,
> Mugdha
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Maupin, Chase
> Sent: Friday, February 12, 2010 10:17 PM
> To: Laurent Pinchart
> Cc: Hans Verkuil; sakari.ailus@maxwell.research.nokia.com;
> mchehab@infradead.org; vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com - This list is to
> discuss the VPSS driver design (May contain non-TIers); linux-
> media@vger.kernel.org; Kamoolkar, Mugdha
> Subject: RE: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design
>
> Laurent,
>
> First let me thank you for taking time to review this.  I have made
> comments below to address your concerns.
>
> Sincerely,
> Chase Maupin
> Software Applications
> Catalog DSP Products
> e-mail: chase.maupin@ti.com
> phone: (281) 274-3285
>
> For support:
> Forums - http://community.ti.com/forums/
> Wiki - http://wiki.davincidsp.com/
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Laurent Pinchart [mailto:laurent.pinchart@ideasonboard.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 7:23 PM
> > To: Maupin, Chase
> > Cc: Hans Verkuil; sakari.ailus@maxwell.research.nokia.com;
> > mchehab@infradead.org; vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com - This list is to
> > discuss the VPSS driver design (May contain non-TIers); linux-
> > media@vger.kernel.org
> > Subject: Re: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design
> >
> > Hi Chase,
> >
> > On Monday 08 February 2010 16:08:37 Maupin, Chase wrote:
> > > All,
> > >
> > > Texas Instruments (TI) is working on the design for the V4L2 capture
> and
> > > display drivers for our next generation system-on-chip (SoC) processor
> > and
> > > would like to solicit your feedback.
> >
> > Thank you very much for requesting feedback on the system design. I
> > personally
> > appreciate this, and I'm pretty sure that the feeling is shared by most
> of
> > the
> > Linux kernel developers.
> >
> > > If you have additional questions or need more information please feel
> > free
> > > to contact us (we have setup a mailing list at
> > > vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com) so we can answer them.
> >
> > I'll answer here as the instructions provided in the wiki to subscribe
> to
> > the
> > vpss_driver_design mailing list are incorrect (http://list.ti.com/ isn't
> > accessible, the name has no A record associated to it). I've CC'ed the
> > list in
> > case subscription wouldn't be required to post.
>
> The page for subscribing to the list requires a my.TI login which you can
> setup at
> https://myportal.ti.com/portal/dt?provider=TIPassLoginSingleContainer&lt=m
> yti&j5=2&j3=1&goto=https%3A%2F%2Fmy.ti.com%3A443%2Fcgi-
> bin%2Fhome.pl%3FDCMP%3DTIHeaderTracking%26HQS%3DOther%2BOT%2Bhdr_my_ti.
> However, your reply to the list should be fine without subscribing.
>
> >
> > 1. Multi-core design
> > --------------------
> >
> > OMAP3 was already a dual-core system, OMAP4 (I assume all this is about
> > the
> > OMAP4 processors family) seems to push the concept one step further.
> >
> > With its heterogeneous multi-core design (ARM master CPU and slave DSPs),
> > the
> > OMAP architecture delivers high performances at the cost of higher
> > development
> > time and effort as users need to write software for completely different
> > cores, usually using different toolchains. This is in my opinion a good
> > (or at
> > least acceptable) trade-off between CPU power, development time and
> power
> > consumption (DSPs being more efficient at signal processing at the cost
> of
> > a
> > higher development complexity).
> >
> > I'm a bit puzzled, however, by how the VPSS MCU will help improving the
> > situation compared to the OMAP3 design. The VPSS MCU will provide an API
> > that
> > will expose a fixed subset of the hardware capabilities. This is only a
> > guess,
> > but I suppose the firmware will be fairly generic, and that TI will
> > provide
> > customized versions to big customers tailored for their needs and use
> > cases.
> > The "official" kernel drivers will then need to be changed, and those
> > changes
> > will have no chance to be accepted in the mainline kernel. This will
> lead
> > to
> > forks and fragmentation of the developers base among the big players in
> > the
> > embedded markets. What will be the compensation for that ? How will the
> > VPSS
> > MCU provide higher performances than the OMAP3 model ?
>
> The firmware on the VPSS MCU will be able to configure/control all of the
> functionality that the VPSS MCU has and will be the same for all customers.
> The only part that may change is the proxy driver of the firmware.  The
> proxy driver is the piece that will be responsible for taking the commands
> from the driver and telling the firmware to execute the operation.  The
> initial version of the proxy will support all the standard V4L2 operations.
> As new operations (such as on the fly video scaling) are added to the V4L2
> API the firmware may require an update to the proxy driver to handle these
> requests, but the underlying code will remain the same.
>
> For customers who wish to use features of the VPSS that are not supported
> by the current V4L2 APIs there are OpenMax components being developed that
> can also talk to the VPSS and support the full set of features of the VPSS.
> These components allow for additional use cases such as transferring data
> directly from other processing blocks such as the DSP to the VPSS without
> ever returning to the host processor (tunneling).  However, the OpenMax
> API does not integrate with most existing software such as applications
> that use V4L2 drivers for video capture and display.
>
> What this means is that we will not be creating a bunch of one-off drivers
> for customers who want to use features that are not part of the V4L2 APIs.
> Instead those customers will be able to use the OpenMax components.  The
> Linux V4L2 drivers will focus on enabling customers who are using the
> standard V4L2 functionalities.  As the V4L2 API is expanded the only
> changes that would be required would be to the V4L2 driver to implement
> the new V4L2 APIs and potentially to the proxy driver on the VPSS firmware
> to handle interpreting the new commands.
>
> >
> > 2. VPSS firmware and API
> > ------------------------
> >
> > The wiki doesn't state under which license the VPSS MCU firmware will be
> > released, but I suppose it won't be open sourced. The VPSS API, which
> > seems
> > from the information provided in the wiki to mimic the V4L2 API at least
> > for
> > video capture and output, will thus be controlled by TI and pretty much
> > set
> > into stone. This means future extensions to the V4L2 API that will
> provide
> > more control over the devices to userspace applications will be stuck
> with
> > access to a limited subset of the hardware capabilities, and users will
> > not be
> > able to use the full potential of the system.
>
> I'll let one of the engineers from the VPSS firmware team comment on the
> license here.  As of now my understanding is that the firmware will be
> binary only.  The VPSS API will define a full set of capabilities, but
> which APIs will be handled by the proxy driver will be initially limited
> to the existing V4L2 features.  Thus while you could add new VPSS API
> calls to the V4L2 driver the proxy on the VPSS MCU may not know how to
> handle these calls.  As we go forward we will add new calls to the proxy
> driver.  I'll let the VPSS firmware team comment more here but this is
> good feedback on the need to at least let people extend the proxy driver
> on the VPSS to handle future extensions.
>
> >
> > This goes in the opposite direction of what the Linux media community is
> > trying to do today. For the past 6 months now we have been working on
> > additions to the V4L2 subsystem to create a complete media framework,
> > targeted
> > at both desktop and embedded use cases. The new APIs that we are
> > developing
> > will let userspace applications discover the internal topology of the
> > hardware
> > and control every parameter in the video pipeline(s). This include
> dynamic
> > reconfiguration of the pipeline(s),  completely under control of
> userspace.
> > With a VPSS API that mimics today's V4L2 API, the OMAP4 video pipeline
> > will
> > look from a userspace perspective as an old-school V4L2 device, a single
> > black
> > box with a few controls to accommodate common use cases.
>
> Again, like I stated above the VPSS API will be capable of exposing all of
> the functionality of the VPSS hardware.  The limitation comes with the
> proxy driver and what commands it interprets.  This will need to be
> expanded as new features are added to the Linux kernel.  Basically the
> VPSS API is full featured but the portions of it that are exposed to Linux
> are initially limited to the current V4L2 APIs with plans to expand going
> forward.  Your feedback indicates that we need to find a way that Linux
> developers can expand which APIs are exposed to Linux themselves an not
> need to rely on TI to do so.
>
> >
> > Regardless of the firmware license, we need a way to control hardware
> > without
> > any limitation from the ARM processor. This includes explicit
> > configuration of
> > the pipeline, and access to all configuration parameters of all hardware
> > processing blocks.
> >
> > 3. VPSS API usage from kernel space
> > -----------------------------------
> >
> > The wiki mentions that Linux kernel drivers will have access to
> functions
> > that
> > convert "standard kernel data structures" to VPSS data structures as
> > required
> > by the VPSS firmware. I don't think that's a good idea. Please let
> kernel
> > drivers do the conversion themselves. Linux kernel drivers know about
> > their
> > data structures better than the VPSS library/middleware/layer/whatever
> > will
> > do. Instead of providing such conversion functions, I would like to see
> > the
> > VPSS data structures properly documented so that kernel driver
> developers
> > will
> > know what information the VPSS MCU expects. Filling the VPSS data
> > structures
> > from "standard kernel data structures" should be left to individual
> > drivers
> > and/or subsystems.
>
> Agreed.  What I was trying to convey here is that we will have functions
> in the Linux kernel drivers that will convert the kernel data structures
> to VPSS data structures.  These functions will be part of the drivers.
> The intent was that if a V4L2 capture and display driver both take in the
> same kind of data structure (like a buffer descriptor) that they could
> share the function that converts that to a VPSS data structure.  In the
> end it is still up to each driver to process the input it is given and
> package it appropriately for sending to the VPSS.  The VPSS data
> structures will be properly documented and will not be hidden from kernel
> developers.
>
> >
> > As explained above, I'm really concerned about the following usage
> > example:
> >
> > "Driver calls VPSS set_format function and passes the VPSS format data
> > structure. The VPSS set_format function will then:
> >  - Create a message structure for sending over the Notify IPC
> >  - Set the command element with the set format command value
> >  - Set the arguements element to the address of the VPSS format data
> > structure
> >  - Call the syslink Notify kernel API and send the address of the
> message
> > structure to the VPSS"
> >
> > This means the VPSS MCU will expose a single black box to the host,
> making
> > it
> > impossible to use the full capabilities of the hardware with future V4L2
> > extensions. Those extensions are developed for a reason. V4L2 simply
> > doesn't
> > scale in the light of future (and even today's) embedded hardware. If
> the
> > VPSS
> > API mimics V4L2 it will suffer from the same problem.
>
> I think I addressed this above in stating that the VPSS API is fully
> featured.  During the initial development we will only expose a subset of
> the VPSS API as needed by the existing V4L2 API.  The list of VPSS APIs
> that are exposed will grow over time and we need to work out if there is a
> way to enable kernel developers to do this without relying on TI.
>
> >
> > One possible solution would be to open-source the VPSS MCU firmware,
> > allowing
> > the Linux community to expose capabilities needed by future V4L2
> > extensions
> > through the VPSS API.
>
> Agreed.
>
> >
> > 4. VPSS API usage from userspace
> > --------------------------------
> >
> > I have no specific comment about the userspace API usage, but I would
> like
> > to
> > know how you plan to arbitrate access to the hardware from both
> > kernelspace
> > (through a V4L2 driver) and userspace. Will there be a way for kernel
> > drivers
> > to take ownership of specific hardware parts and disallow userspace
> > applications from issuing any message to those parts ? The design must
> be
> > carefully reviewed to spot possible race conditions and even security
> > issues.
>
> The VPSS firmware does the hardware arbitration.  If the kernel driver
> already has a video plane open then a user space application would not be
> able to open the same video plane.
>
> >
> > 5. Syslink
> > ----------
> >
> > I still need to review the syslink code. As stated by Hans Verkuil, from
> a
> > quick look at the source tree the syslink module looks over-engineered.
> To
> > communicate with the VPSS MCU all that seems to be needed is a mailbox-
> > like
> > interface.
> >
> > Furthermore, the mailbox API should probably not be OMAP4-specific.
> Isn't
> > there already a mailbox API in Linux ? If not I think one should be
> > developed
> > first, and then syslink should be built on top of it. The best way to
> see
> > a
> > driver being rejected when submitted to mainline is to write a huge pile
> > of
> > code and then push it in one go.
>
> I'll need to let the syslink team comment on this.  I know they are
> reworking some of the syslink code such that most of the advanced usage is
> done from user space and only the basic message passing is done in the
> kernel.  I'm not sure if they have been working on a generic mailbox
> interface.  The syslink Notify module being part of the Linux kernel is a
> requirement for us and they are actively working on getting it into the
> kernel.
>
> Mugdha, can someone from the syslink team comment here?
>
> >
> >
> >
> > As a conclusion, I believe that the best chance to get drivers into
> > mainline
> > and to get developers excited about the product (both are related in my
> > experience) is to be as open as possible and play by the rules of the
> > Linux
> > kernel community. This means that:
> >
> > - Big subsystems such as syslink should be broken down to small pieces,
> > and
> > every piece, especially the low-level ones, must be carefully designed
> > with
> > the whole Linux kernel in mind, not only the OMAP4 platform. APIs should
> > be
> > made generic when possible.
> >
> > - The VPSS MCU firmware should be properly documented, developed in the
> > open
> > and under an open-source license.
>
> Thanks for the guidance on this.  This is the kind of feedback we needed.
>
> >
> > Those two steps should be performed in tight cooperation with the Linux
> > kernel
> > community.
> >
> > --
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Laurent Pinchart

Re: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design

[Laurent Pinchart]

Hi Chase,

On Friday 12 February 2010 17:46:55 Maupin, Chase wrote:
> Laurent,
> 
> First let me thank you for taking time to review this.

You're welcome.

[snip]

> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Laurent Pinchart [mailto:laurent.pinchart@ideasonboard.com]
> > Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 7:23 PM
> >
> > On Monday 08 February 2010 16:08:37 Maupin, Chase wrote:

[snip]

> > > If you have additional questions or need more information please feel
> > > free to contact us (we have setup a mailing list at
> > > vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com) so we can answer them.
> > 
> > I'll answer here as the instructions provided in the wiki to subscribe to
> > the vpss_driver_design mailing list are incorrect (http://list.ti.com/
> > isn't accessible, the name has no A record associated to it). I've CC'ed
> > the list in case subscription wouldn't be required to post.
> 
> The page for subscribing to the list requires a my.TI login which you can
> setup at
> https://myportal.ti.com/portal/dt?provider=TIPassLoginSingleContainer&lt=m
> yti&j5=2&j3=1&goto=https%3A%2F%2Fmy.ti.com%3A443%2Fcgi-bin%2Fhome.pl%3FDCMP
> %3DTIHeaderTracking%26HQS%3DOther%2BOT%2Bhdr_my_ti.
> However, your reply to the list should be fine without subscribing.

Thanks for the information, but http://list.ti.com/ still can't be accessed. 
The host list.ti.com has no A record, an HTTP connection can't thus be 
established.

> > 1. Multi-core design
> > --------------------
> > 
> > OMAP3 was already a dual-core system, OMAP4 (I assume all this is about
> > the OMAP4 processors family) seems to push the concept one step further.
> > 
> > With its heterogeneous multi-core design (ARM master CPU and slave DSPs),
> > the OMAP architecture delivers high performances at the cost of higher
> > development time and effort as users need to write software for completely
> > different cores, usually using different toolchains. This is in my opinion
> > a good (or at least acceptable) trade-off between CPU power, development
> > time and power consumption (DSPs being more efficient at signal processing
> > at the cost of a higher development complexity).
> > 
> > I'm a bit puzzled, however, by how the VPSS MCU will help improving the
> > situation compared to the OMAP3 design. The VPSS MCU will provide an API
> > that will expose a fixed subset of the hardware capabilities. This is only
> > a guess, but I suppose the firmware will be fairly generic, and that TI
> > will provide customized versions to big customers tailored for their needs
> > and use cases. The "official" kernel drivers will then need to be changed,
> > and those changes will have no chance to be accepted in the mainline
> > kernel. This will lead to forks and fragmentation of the developers base
> > among the big players in the embedded markets. What will be the
> > compensation for that ? How will the VPSS MCU provide higher performances
> > than the OMAP3 model ?
> 
> The firmware on the VPSS MCU will be able to configure/control all of the
> functionality that the VPSS MCU has and will be the same for all
> customers. The only part that may change is the proxy driver of the
> firmware. The proxy driver is the piece that will be responsible for
> taking the commands from the driver and telling the firmware to execute
> the operation.

As the proxy is the "tip of the firmware iceberg", it will be all the Linux 
driver will care about. Whether the firmware "backend" is able to configure 
and control all of the functionality that the VPSS MCU offers is then 
irrelevant, as the Linux driver will have no way to access that backend 
directly. Is my understanding correct ?

> The initial version of the proxy will support all the standard V4L2
> operations.  As new operations (such as on the fly video scaling) are added
> to the V4L2 API the firmware may require an update to the proxy driver to
> handle these requests, but the underlying code will remain the same.

Different proxy versions will need different version of the Linux driver. 
That's where fragmentation of the developers base come into play, and that's 
the part that worries me.

> For customers who wish to use features of the VPSS that are not supported
> by the current V4L2 APIs there are OpenMax components being developed that
> can also talk to the VPSS and support the full set of features of the
> VPSS.  These components allow for additional use cases such as
> transferring data directly from other processing blocks such as the DSP to
> the VPSS without ever returning to the host processor (tunneling). 
> However, the OpenMax API does not integrate with most existing software
> such as applications that use V4L2 drivers for video capture and display.

So the firmware "backend" will expose all its features through OpenMax, and 
the proxy will expose a V4L2-like API based on the firmware backend ? In that 
case why do we need a proxy at all, why can't the Linux driver access the 
firmware "backend" directly and configure it the way it sees fit ?

My understanding is that both the backend (for OpenMax) and the proxy will be 
accessed through the notify API. Is that correct ?

> What this means is that we will not be creating a bunch of one-off drivers
> for customers who want to use features that are not part of the V4L2 APIs.
> Instead those customers will be able to use the OpenMax components.  The
> Linux V4L2 drivers will focus on enabling customers who are using the
> standard V4L2 functionalities.  As the V4L2 API is expanded the only
> changes that would be required would be to the V4L2 driver to implement
> the new V4L2 APIs and potentially to the proxy driver on the VPSS firmware
> to handle interpreting the new commands.

If the first VPSS proxy version mimics the V4L2 API, changes will definitely 
be required to the proxy driver to handle the V4L2 enhancements. This is where 
an open-source version of the VPSS firmware could really help, allowing 
modifications to the firmware when needed by the Linux driver.
 
> > 2. VPSS firmware and API
> > ------------------------
> > 
> > The wiki doesn't state under which license the VPSS MCU firmware will be
> > released, but I suppose it won't be open sourced. The VPSS API, which
> > seems from the information provided in the wiki to mimic the V4L2 API at
> > least for video capture and output, will thus be controlled by TI and
> > pretty much set into stone. This means future extensions to the V4L2 API
> > that will provide more control over the devices to userspace applications
> > will be stuck with access to a limited subset of the hardware
> > capabilities, and users will not be able to use the full potential of the
> > system.
> 
> I'll let one of the engineers from the VPSS firmware team comment on the
> license here.  As of now my understanding is that the firmware will be
> binary only.  The VPSS API will define a full set of capabilities, but
> which APIs will be handled by the proxy driver will be initially limited
> to the existing V4L2 features.  Thus while you could add new VPSS API
> calls to the V4L2 driver the proxy on the VPSS MCU may not know how to
> handle these calls.  As we go forward we will add new calls to the proxy
> driver.  I'll let the VPSS firmware team comment more here but this is
> good feedback on the need to at least let people extend the proxy driver
> on the VPSS to handle future extensions.

I think letting developers modify at least the proxy driver would be a very 
good move. It would then be much easier to keep the proxy and the Linux driver 
in sync.

> > This goes in the opposite direction of what the Linux media community is
> > trying to do today. For the past 6 months now we have been working on
> > additions to the V4L2 subsystem to create a complete media framework,
> > targeted at both desktop and embedded use cases. The new APIs that we are
> > developing will let userspace applications discover the internal topology
> > of the hardware and control every parameter in the video pipeline(s). This
> > include dynamic reconfiguration of the pipeline(s),  completely under
> > control of userspace. With a VPSS API that mimics today's V4L2 API, the
> > OMAP4 video pipeline will look from a userspace perspective as an old-
> > school V4L2 device, a single black box with a few controls to accommodate
> > common use cases.
> 
> Again, like I stated above the VPSS API will be capable of exposing all of
> the functionality of the VPSS hardware.  The limitation comes with the
> proxy driver and what commands it interprets.  This will need to be
> expanded as new features are added to the Linux kernel.  Basically the
> VPSS API is full featured but the portions of it that are exposed to Linux
> are initially limited to the current V4L2 APIs with plans to expand going
> forward.  Your feedback indicates that we need to find a way that Linux
> developers can expand which APIs are exposed to Linux themselves an not
> need to rely on TI to do so.

There's something I don't get. You mention that the VPSS API will be full-
featured, but that only portions of it are exposed to Linux. Isn't it 
contradictory ? An API being an Application Programming Interface, all of an 
API is exposed by definition. What's not exposed is not part of the API, but 
is an internal implementation detail.

Can you clarify what you mean by "VPSS API" ? If that's a full-featured API 
that can be accessed by the master ARM CPU, why do we need a proxy driver and 
a limited proxy API at all ?

> > Regardless of the firmware license, we need a way to control hardware
> > without any limitation from the ARM processor. This includes explicit
> > configuration of the pipeline, and access to all configuration parameters
> > of all hardware processing blocks.
> > 
> > 3. VPSS API usage from kernel space
> > -----------------------------------
> > 
> > The wiki mentions that Linux kernel drivers will have access to functions
> > that convert "standard kernel data structures" to VPSS data structures as
> > required by the VPSS firmware. I don't think that's a good idea. Please
> > let kernel drivers do the conversion themselves. Linux kernel drivers know
> > about their data structures better than the VPSS
> > library/middleware/layer/whatever will do. Instead of providing such
> > conversion functions, I would like to see the VPSS data structures
> > properly documented so that kernel driver developers will know what
> > information the VPSS MCU expects. Filling the VPSS data structures
> > from "standard kernel data structures" should be left to individual
> > drivers and/or subsystems.
> 
> Agreed.  What I was trying to convey here is that we will have functions in
> the Linux kernel drivers that will convert the kernel data structures to
> VPSS data structures.  These functions will be part of the drivers.

Ok. There was a slight misunderstanding. Thanks for the clarification.

> The intent was that if a V4L2 capture and display driver both take in the
> same kind of data structure (like a buffer descriptor) that they could share
> the function that converts that to a VPSS data structure.  In the end it
> is still up to each driver to process the input it is given and package it
> appropriately for sending to the VPSS.  The VPSS data structures will be
> properly documented and will not be hidden from kernel developers.

Thanks.

> > As explained above, I'm really concerned about the following usage
> > example:
> > 
> > "Driver calls VPSS set_format function and passes the VPSS format data
> > 
> > structure. The VPSS set_format function will then:
> >  - Create a message structure for sending over the Notify IPC
> >  - Set the command element with the set format command value
> >  - Set the arguements element to the address of the VPSS format data
> > structure
> >  - Call the syslink Notify kernel API and send the address of the message
> > structure to the VPSS"
> > 
> > This means the VPSS MCU will expose a single black box to the host, making
> > it impossible to use the full capabilities of the hardware with future
> > V4L2 extensions. Those extensions are developed for a reason. V4L2 simply
> > doesn't scale in the light of future (and even today's) embedded hardware.
> > If the VPSS API mimics V4L2 it will suffer from the same problem.
> 
> I think I addressed this above in stating that the VPSS API is fully
> featured.  During the initial development we will only expose a subset of
> the VPSS API as needed by the existing V4L2 API.  The list of VPSS APIs
> that are exposed will grow over time and we need to work out if there is a
> way to enable kernel developers to do this without relying on TI.

What do you mean by "expose a subset of the VPSS API" ? I suppose that the 
VPSS API is basically a set of messages that can be exchanged between the 
master CPU and the VPSS, along with memory layout of data structures. Do you 
mean that only a subset of those messages and structures will be documented at 
first ? If they're all documented, I don't get what you mean by "expose a 
subset of the VPSS API".

> > One possible solution would be to open-source the VPSS MCU firmware,
> > allowing the Linux community to expose capabilities needed by future V4L2
> > extensions through the VPSS API.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> > 4. VPSS API usage from userspace
> > --------------------------------
> > 
> > I have no specific comment about the userspace API usage, but I would
> > like to know how you plan to arbitrate access to the hardware from both
> > kernelspace (through a V4L2 driver) and userspace. Will there be a way for
> > kernel drivers to take ownership of specific hardware parts and disallow
> > userspace applications from issuing any message to those parts ? The
> > design must be carefully reviewed to spot possible race conditions and
> > even security issues.
> 
> The VPSS firmware does the hardware arbitration.  If the kernel driver
> already has a video plane open then a user space application would not be
> able to open the same video plane.

Ok, so there's some kind of locking. I suppose that loading the Linux VPSS 
"ISP" driver will be enough to take ownership of the ISP, forbidding userspace 
applications to use it directly (otherwise the kernel driver will not like the 
ISP being reconfigured by userspace behind its back, and that could lead to a 
crash in kernel space).

How will the locking be handled ? I suppose "opening a plane" and "closing a 
plane" will just be a matter of sending one (or several) messages to the VPSS. 
In that case what would prevent a userspace application from sending a direct 
message to close a plane that a driver would have opened ? Will the firmware 
be able to identify if a close message comes from the same source as a 
previous open message, without any risk of identify spoofing ?

> > 5. Syslink
> > ----------
> > 
> > I still need to review the syslink code. As stated by Hans Verkuil, from
> > a quick look at the source tree the syslink module looks over-engineered.
> > To communicate with the VPSS MCU all that seems to be needed is a mailbox-
> > like interface.
> > 
> > Furthermore, the mailbox API should probably not be OMAP4-specific. Isn't
> > there already a mailbox API in Linux ? If not I think one should be
> > developed first, and then syslink should be built on top of it. The best
> > way to see a driver being rejected when submitted to mainline is to write
> > a huge pile of code and then push it in one go.
> 
> I'll need to let the syslink team comment on this.  I know they are
> reworking some of the syslink code such that most of the advanced usage is
> done from user space and only the basic message passing is done in the
> kernel.

That's very good news.

> I'm not sure if they have been working on a generic mailbox interface. The
> syslink Notify module being part of the Linux kernel is a requirement for us
> and they are actively working on getting it into the kernel.
> 
> Mugdha, can someone from the syslink team comment here?
> 
> > As a conclusion, I believe that the best chance to get drivers into
> > mainline and to get developers excited about the product (both are related
> > in my experience) is to be as open as possible and play by the rules of
> > the Linux kernel community. This means that:
> > 
> > - Big subsystems such as syslink should be broken down to small pieces,
> > and every piece, especially the low-level ones, must be carefully designed
> > with the whole Linux kernel in mind, not only the OMAP4 platform. APIs
> > should be made generic when possible.
> > 
> > - The VPSS MCU firmware should be properly documented, developed in the
> > open and under an open-source license.
> 
> Thanks for the guidance on this.  This is the kind of feedback we needed.

You're welcome.

> > Those two steps should be performed in tight cooperation with the Linux
> > kernel community.

-- 
Regards,

Laurent Pinchart

RE: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design

[Maupin, Chase]

Laurent,

Responses inline

Puru,

There is a question for you below.  Can you look at it and provide an answer?

Sincerely,
Chase Maupin
Software Applications
Catalog DSP Products
e-mail: chase.maupin@ti.com
phone: (281) 274-3285

For support:
Forums - http://community.ti.com/forums/
Wiki - http://wiki.davincidsp.com/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Laurent Pinchart [mailto:laurent.pinchart@ideasonboard.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 6:32 PM
> To: Maupin, Chase
> Cc: Hans Verkuil; sakari.ailus@maxwell.research.nokia.com;
> mchehab@infradead.org; vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com - This list is to
> discuss the VPSS driver design (May contain non-TIers); linux-
> media@vger.kernel.org; Kamoolkar, Mugdha
> Subject: Re: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design
>
> Hi Chase,
>
> On Friday 12 February 2010 17:46:55 Maupin, Chase wrote:
> > Laurent,
> >
> > First let me thank you for taking time to review this.
>
> You're welcome.
>
> [snip]
>
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Laurent Pinchart [mailto:laurent.pinchart@ideasonboard.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 7:23 PM
> > >
> > > On Monday 08 February 2010 16:08:37 Maupin, Chase wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > > > If you have additional questions or need more information please
> feel
> > > > free to contact us (we have setup a mailing list at
> > > > vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com) so we can answer them.
> > >
> > > I'll answer here as the instructions provided in the wiki to subscribe
> to
> > > the vpss_driver_design mailing list are incorrect (http://list.ti.com/
> > > isn't accessible, the name has no A record associated to it). I've
> CC'ed
> > > the list in case subscription wouldn't be required to post.
> >
> > The page for subscribing to the list requires a my.TI login which you
> can
> > setup at
> >
> https://myportal.ti.com/portal/dt?provider=TIPassLoginSingleContainer&lt=m
> > yti&j5=2&j3=1&goto=https%3A%2F%2Fmy.ti.com%3A443%2Fcgi-
> bin%2Fhome.pl%3FDCMP
> > %3DTIHeaderTracking%26HQS%3DOther%2BOT%2Bhdr_my_ti.
> > However, your reply to the list should be fine without subscribing.
>
> Thanks for the information, but http://list.ti.com/ still can't be
> accessed.
> The host list.ti.com has no A record, an HTTP connection can't thus be
> established.

I'm not sure what is going on here.  Let me file a ticket with our IT group and see if they can fix the problem.

>
> > > 1. Multi-core design
> > > --------------------
> > >
> > > OMAP3 was already a dual-core system, OMAP4 (I assume all this is
> about
> > > the OMAP4 processors family) seems to push the concept one step
> further.
> > >
> > > With its heterogeneous multi-core design (ARM master CPU and slave
> DSPs),
> > > the OMAP architecture delivers high performances at the cost of higher
> > > development time and effort as users need to write software for
> completely
> > > different cores, usually using different toolchains. This is in my
> opinion
> > > a good (or at least acceptable) trade-off between CPU power,
> development
> > > time and power consumption (DSPs being more efficient at signal
> processing
> > > at the cost of a higher development complexity).
> > >
> > > I'm a bit puzzled, however, by how the VPSS MCU will help improving
> the
> > > situation compared to the OMAP3 design. The VPSS MCU will provide an
> API
> > > that will expose a fixed subset of the hardware capabilities. This is
> only
> > > a guess, but I suppose the firmware will be fairly generic, and that
> TI
> > > will provide customized versions to big customers tailored for their
> needs
> > > and use cases. The "official" kernel drivers will then need to be
> changed,
> > > and those changes will have no chance to be accepted in the mainline
> > > kernel. This will lead to forks and fragmentation of the developers
> base
> > > among the big players in the embedded markets. What will be the
> > > compensation for that ? How will the VPSS MCU provide higher
> performances
> > > than the OMAP3 model ?
> >
> > The firmware on the VPSS MCU will be able to configure/control all of
> the
> > functionality that the VPSS MCU has and will be the same for all
> > customers. The only part that may change is the proxy driver of the
> > firmware. The proxy driver is the piece that will be responsible for
> > taking the commands from the driver and telling the firmware to execute
> > the operation.
>
> As the proxy is the "tip of the firmware iceberg", it will be all the
> Linux
> driver will care about. Whether the firmware "backend" is able to
> configure
> and control all of the functionality that the VPSS MCU offers is then
> irrelevant, as the Linux driver will have no way to access that backend
> directly. Is my understanding correct ?

As you saw in my follow-up e-mail the proxy will support all the VPSS APIs so my statement was misleading.

>
> > The initial version of the proxy will support all the standard V4L2
> > operations.  As new operations (such as on the fly video scaling) are
> added
> > to the V4L2 API the firmware may require an update to the proxy driver
> to
> > handle these requests, but the underlying code will remain the same.
>
> Different proxy versions will need different version of the Linux driver.
> That's where fragmentation of the developers base come into play, and
> that's
> the part that worries me.

There should only be one proxy version.

>
> > For customers who wish to use features of the VPSS that are not
> supported
> > by the current V4L2 APIs there are OpenMax components being developed
> that
> > can also talk to the VPSS and support the full set of features of the
> > VPSS.  These components allow for additional use cases such as
> > transferring data directly from other processing blocks such as the DSP
> to
> > the VPSS without ever returning to the host processor (tunneling).
> > However, the OpenMax API does not integrate with most existing software
> > such as applications that use V4L2 drivers for video capture and display.
>
> So the firmware "backend" will expose all its features through OpenMax,
> and
> the proxy will expose a V4L2-like API based on the firmware backend ? In
> that
> case why do we need a proxy at all, why can't the Linux driver access the
> firmware "backend" directly and configure it the way it sees fit ?

The firmware backend will expose all its features through the VPSS APIs.  The OpenMax components will call to proxies running on the VPSS to translate the OpenMax calls to VPSS calls much like the proxy for the V4L2 driver will.  Basically OpenMax is another way to access the VPSS APIs from a user application but can be ignored when considering Linux drivers.

>
> My understanding is that both the backend (for OpenMax) and the proxy will
> be
> accessed through the notify API. Is that correct ?

I believe on the lowest level they will both rely on Notify for sending events.

>
> > What this means is that we will not be creating a bunch of one-off
> drivers
> > for customers who want to use features that are not part of the V4L2
> APIs.
> > Instead those customers will be able to use the OpenMax components.  The
> > Linux V4L2 drivers will focus on enabling customers who are using the
> > standard V4L2 functionalities.  As the V4L2 API is expanded the only
> > changes that would be required would be to the V4L2 driver to implement
> > the new V4L2 APIs and potentially to the proxy driver on the VPSS
> firmware
> > to handle interpreting the new commands.
>
> If the first VPSS proxy version mimics the V4L2 API, changes will
> definitely
> be required to the proxy driver to handle the V4L2 enhancements. This is
> where
> an open-source version of the VPSS firmware could really help, allowing
> modifications to the firmware when needed by the Linux driver.

The VPSS proxy is not mimicking V4L2 APIs.  It is instead exposing all the VPSS APIs to the host CPU.  It would be the responsibility of the V4L2 driver to handle the V4L2 APIs and interact with the VPSS proxy to execute the requested operation using the VPSS API.

>
> > > 2. VPSS firmware and API
> > > ------------------------
> > >
> > > The wiki doesn't state under which license the VPSS MCU firmware will
> be
> > > released, but I suppose it won't be open sourced. The VPSS API, which
> > > seems from the information provided in the wiki to mimic the V4L2 API
> at
> > > least for video capture and output, will thus be controlled by TI and
> > > pretty much set into stone. This means future extensions to the V4L2
> API
> > > that will provide more control over the devices to userspace
> applications
> > > will be stuck with access to a limited subset of the hardware
> > > capabilities, and users will not be able to use the full potential of
> the
> > > system.
> >
> > I'll let one of the engineers from the VPSS firmware team comment on the
> > license here.  As of now my understanding is that the firmware will be
> > binary only.  The VPSS API will define a full set of capabilities, but
> > which APIs will be handled by the proxy driver will be initially limited
> > to the existing V4L2 features.  Thus while you could add new VPSS API
> > calls to the V4L2 driver the proxy on the VPSS MCU may not know how to
> > handle these calls.  As we go forward we will add new calls to the proxy
> > driver.  I'll let the VPSS firmware team comment more here but this is
> > good feedback on the need to at least let people extend the proxy driver
> > on the VPSS to handle future extensions.
>
> I think letting developers modify at least the proxy driver would be a
> very
> good move. It would then be much easier to keep the proxy and the Linux
> driver
> in sync.

Again, we'll look into how this could be enabled.

>
> > > This goes in the opposite direction of what the Linux media community
> is
> > > trying to do today. For the past 6 months now we have been working on
> > > additions to the V4L2 subsystem to create a complete media framework,
> > > targeted at both desktop and embedded use cases. The new APIs that we
> are
> > > developing will let userspace applications discover the internal
> topology
> > > of the hardware and control every parameter in the video pipeline(s).
> This
> > > include dynamic reconfiguration of the pipeline(s),  completely under
> > > control of userspace. With a VPSS API that mimics today's V4L2 API,
> the
> > > OMAP4 video pipeline will look from a userspace perspective as an old-
> > > school V4L2 device, a single black box with a few controls to
> accommodate
> > > common use cases.
> >
> > Again, like I stated above the VPSS API will be capable of exposing all
> of
> > the functionality of the VPSS hardware.  The limitation comes with the
> > proxy driver and what commands it interprets.  This will need to be
> > expanded as new features are added to the Linux kernel.  Basically the
> > VPSS API is full featured but the portions of it that are exposed to
> Linux
> > are initially limited to the current V4L2 APIs with plans to expand
> going
> > forward.  Your feedback indicates that we need to find a way that Linux
> > developers can expand which APIs are exposed to Linux themselves an not
> > need to rely on TI to do so.
>
> There's something I don't get. You mention that the VPSS API will be full-
> featured, but that only portions of it are exposed to Linux. Isn't it
> contradictory ? An API being an Application Programming Interface, all of
> an
> API is exposed by definition. What's not exposed is not part of the API,
> but
> is an internal implementation detail.

My previous comment was wrong.

>
> Can you clarify what you mean by "VPSS API" ? If that's a full-featured
> API
> that can be accessed by the master ARM CPU, why do we need a proxy driver
> and
> a limited proxy API at all ?
>
> > > Regardless of the firmware license, we need a way to control hardware
> > > without any limitation from the ARM processor. This includes explicit
> > > configuration of the pipeline, and access to all configuration
> parameters
> > > of all hardware processing blocks.
> > >
> > > 3. VPSS API usage from kernel space
> > > -----------------------------------
> > >
> > > The wiki mentions that Linux kernel drivers will have access to
> functions
> > > that convert "standard kernel data structures" to VPSS data structures
> as
> > > required by the VPSS firmware. I don't think that's a good idea.
> Please
> > > let kernel drivers do the conversion themselves. Linux kernel drivers
> know
> > > about their data structures better than the VPSS
> > > library/middleware/layer/whatever will do. Instead of providing such
> > > conversion functions, I would like to see the VPSS data structures
> > > properly documented so that kernel driver developers will know what
> > > information the VPSS MCU expects. Filling the VPSS data structures
> > > from "standard kernel data structures" should be left to individual
> > > drivers and/or subsystems.
> >
> > Agreed.  What I was trying to convey here is that we will have functions
> in
> > the Linux kernel drivers that will convert the kernel data structures to
> > VPSS data structures.  These functions will be part of the drivers.
>
> Ok. There was a slight misunderstanding. Thanks for the clarification.
>
> > The intent was that if a V4L2 capture and display driver both take in
> the
> > same kind of data structure (like a buffer descriptor) that they could
> share
> > the function that converts that to a VPSS data structure.  In the end it
> > is still up to each driver to process the input it is given and package
> it
> > appropriately for sending to the VPSS.  The VPSS data structures will be
> > properly documented and will not be hidden from kernel developers.
>
> Thanks.
>
> > > As explained above, I'm really concerned about the following usage
> > > example:
> > >
> > > "Driver calls VPSS set_format function and passes the VPSS format data
> > >
> > > structure. The VPSS set_format function will then:
> > >  - Create a message structure for sending over the Notify IPC
> > >  - Set the command element with the set format command value
> > >  - Set the arguements element to the address of the VPSS format data
> > > structure
> > >  - Call the syslink Notify kernel API and send the address of the
> message
> > > structure to the VPSS"
> > >
> > > This means the VPSS MCU will expose a single black box to the host,
> making
> > > it impossible to use the full capabilities of the hardware with future
> > > V4L2 extensions. Those extensions are developed for a reason. V4L2
> simply
> > > doesn't scale in the light of future (and even today's) embedded
> hardware.
> > > If the VPSS API mimics V4L2 it will suffer from the same problem.
> >
> > I think I addressed this above in stating that the VPSS API is fully
> > featured.  During the initial development we will only expose a subset
> of
> > the VPSS API as needed by the existing V4L2 API.  The list of VPSS APIs
> > that are exposed will grow over time and we need to work out if there is
> a
> > way to enable kernel developers to do this without relying on TI.
>
> What do you mean by "expose a subset of the VPSS API" ? I suppose that the
> VPSS API is basically a set of messages that can be exchanged between the
> master CPU and the VPSS, along with memory layout of data structures. Do
> you
> mean that only a subset of those messages and structures will be
> documented at
> first ? If they're all documented, I don't get what you mean by "expose a
> subset of the VPSS API".
>
> > > One possible solution would be to open-source the VPSS MCU firmware,
> > > allowing the Linux community to expose capabilities needed by future
> V4L2
> > > extensions through the VPSS API.
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> > > 4. VPSS API usage from userspace
> > > --------------------------------
> > >
> > > I have no specific comment about the userspace API usage, but I would
> > > like to know how you plan to arbitrate access to the hardware from
> both
> > > kernelspace (through a V4L2 driver) and userspace. Will there be a way
> for
> > > kernel drivers to take ownership of specific hardware parts and
> disallow
> > > userspace applications from issuing any message to those parts ? The
> > > design must be carefully reviewed to spot possible race conditions and
> > > even security issues.
> >
> > The VPSS firmware does the hardware arbitration.  If the kernel driver
> > already has a video plane open then a user space application would not
> be
> > able to open the same video plane.
>
> Ok, so there's some kind of locking. I suppose that loading the Linux VPSS
> "ISP" driver will be enough to take ownership of the ISP, forbidding
> userspace
> applications to use it directly (otherwise the kernel driver will not like
> the
> ISP being reconfigured by userspace behind its back, and that could lead
> to a
> crash in kernel space).

Yes, the firmware does all resource management.  If the kernel driver already has a channel open and is using it when a user space application requests it then the user space application will get an error indicating the resource is already in use.

>
> How will the locking be handled ? I suppose "opening a plane" and "closing
> a
> plane" will just be a matter of sending one (or several) messages to the
> VPSS.
> In that case what would prevent a userspace application from sending a
> direct
> message to close a plane that a driver would have opened ? Will the
> firmware
> be able to identify if a close message comes from the same source as a
> previous open message, without any risk of identify spoofing ?

That is a good question.  Let me have one of the firmware guys answer this.  I too am assuming that some other application can't issue a close on a channel if they weren't the one to open it.  Puru, can you answer this?

>
> > > 5. Syslink
> > > ----------
> > >
> > > I still need to review the syslink code. As stated by Hans Verkuil,
> from
> > > a quick look at the source tree the syslink module looks over-
> engineered.
> > > To communicate with the VPSS MCU all that seems to be needed is a
> mailbox-
> > > like interface.
> > >
> > > Furthermore, the mailbox API should probably not be OMAP4-specific.
> Isn't
> > > there already a mailbox API in Linux ? If not I think one should be
> > > developed first, and then syslink should be built on top of it. The
> best
> > > way to see a driver being rejected when submitted to mainline is to
> write
> > > a huge pile of code and then push it in one go.
> >
> > I'll need to let the syslink team comment on this.  I know they are
> > reworking some of the syslink code such that most of the advanced usage
> is
> > done from user space and only the basic message passing is done in the
> > kernel.
>
> That's very good news.
>
> > I'm not sure if they have been working on a generic mailbox interface.
> The
> > syslink Notify module being part of the Linux kernel is a requirement
> for us
> > and they are actively working on getting it into the kernel.
> >
> > Mugdha, can someone from the syslink team comment here?
> >
> > > As a conclusion, I believe that the best chance to get drivers into
> > > mainline and to get developers excited about the product (both are
> related
> > > in my experience) is to be as open as possible and play by the rules
> of
> > > the Linux kernel community. This means that:
> > >
> > > - Big subsystems such as syslink should be broken down to small pieces,
> > > and every piece, especially the low-level ones, must be carefully
> designed
> > > with the whole Linux kernel in mind, not only the OMAP4 platform. APIs
> > > should be made generic when possible.
> > >
> > > - The VPSS MCU firmware should be properly documented, developed in
> the
> > > open and under an open-source license.
> >
> > Thanks for the guidance on this.  This is the kind of feedback we needed.
>
> You're welcome.
>
> > > Those two steps should be performed in tight cooperation with the
> Linux
> > > kernel community.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Laurent Pinchart

RE: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design

[Kumar, Purushotam]

> How will the locking be handled ? I suppose "opening a plane" and "closing
> a
> plane" will just be a matter of sending one (or several) messages to the
> VPSS.
> In that case what would prevent a userspace application from sending a
> direct
> message to close a plane that a driver would have opened ? Will the
> firmware
> be able to identify if a close message comes from the same source as a
> previous open message, without any risk of identify spoofing ?

That is a good question.  Let me have one of the firmware guys answer this.  I too am assuming that some other application can't issue a close on a channel if they weren't the one to open it.  Puru, can you answer this?

Laurent,
You are correct in saying that opening of plan will be matter of sending one message but it is slightly different for closing of driver and other commands. As part of open, firmware returns specific identifier i.e. handle which has to be used for all further commands/messages related to specific plan. It means that close will also require this specific identifier i.e. handle and so it will not be possible for other application to close any driver unless specific identifier i.e. handle is also supplied along with close message. This identifier or handles helps in identifying source of open/close or any commands.

Regards,
Purushotam


-----Original Message-----
From: Maupin, Chase
Sent: Friday, February 26, 2010 9:05 PM
To: Laurent Pinchart
Cc: Hans Verkuil; sakari.ailus@maxwell.research.nokia.com; mchehab@infradead.org; vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com - This list is to discuss the VPSS driver design (May contain non-TIers); linux-media@vger.kernel.org; Kamoolkar, Mugdha
Subject: RE: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design

Laurent,

Responses inline

Puru,

There is a question for you below.  Can you look at it and provide an answer?

Sincerely,
Chase Maupin
Software Applications
Catalog DSP Products
e-mail: chase.maupin@ti.com
phone: (281) 274-3285

For support:
Forums - http://community.ti.com/forums/
Wiki - http://wiki.davincidsp.com/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Laurent Pinchart [mailto:laurent.pinchart@ideasonboard.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 6:32 PM
> To: Maupin, Chase
> Cc: Hans Verkuil; sakari.ailus@maxwell.research.nokia.com;
> mchehab@infradead.org; vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com - This list is to
> discuss the VPSS driver design (May contain non-TIers); linux-
> media@vger.kernel.org; Kamoolkar, Mugdha
> Subject: Re: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design
>
> Hi Chase,
>
> On Friday 12 February 2010 17:46:55 Maupin, Chase wrote:
> > Laurent,
> >
> > First let me thank you for taking time to review this.
>
> You're welcome.
>
> [snip]
>
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Laurent Pinchart [mailto:laurent.pinchart@ideasonboard.com]
> > > Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 7:23 PM
> > >
> > > On Monday 08 February 2010 16:08:37 Maupin, Chase wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
> > > > If you have additional questions or need more information please
> feel
> > > > free to contact us (we have setup a mailing list at
> > > > vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com) so we can answer them.
> > >
> > > I'll answer here as the instructions provided in the wiki to subscribe
> to
> > > the vpss_driver_design mailing list are incorrect (http://list.ti.com/
> > > isn't accessible, the name has no A record associated to it). I've
> CC'ed
> > > the list in case subscription wouldn't be required to post.
> >
> > The page for subscribing to the list requires a my.TI login which you
> can
> > setup at
> >
> https://myportal.ti.com/portal/dt?provider=TIPassLoginSingleContainer&lt=m
> > yti&j5=2&j3=1&goto=https%3A%2F%2Fmy.ti.com%3A443%2Fcgi-
> bin%2Fhome.pl%3FDCMP
> > %3DTIHeaderTracking%26HQS%3DOther%2BOT%2Bhdr_my_ti.
> > However, your reply to the list should be fine without subscribing.
>
> Thanks for the information, but http://list.ti.com/ still can't be
> accessed.
> The host list.ti.com has no A record, an HTTP connection can't thus be
> established.

I'm not sure what is going on here.  Let me file a ticket with our IT group and see if they can fix the problem.

>
> > > 1. Multi-core design
> > > --------------------
> > >
> > > OMAP3 was already a dual-core system, OMAP4 (I assume all this is
> about
> > > the OMAP4 processors family) seems to push the concept one step
> further.
> > >
> > > With its heterogeneous multi-core design (ARM master CPU and slave
> DSPs),
> > > the OMAP architecture delivers high performances at the cost of higher
> > > development time and effort as users need to write software for
> completely
> > > different cores, usually using different toolchains. This is in my
> opinion
> > > a good (or at least acceptable) trade-off between CPU power,
> development
> > > time and power consumption (DSPs being more efficient at signal
> processing
> > > at the cost of a higher development complexity).
> > >
> > > I'm a bit puzzled, however, by how the VPSS MCU will help improving
> the
> > > situation compared to the OMAP3 design. The VPSS MCU will provide an
> API
> > > that will expose a fixed subset of the hardware capabilities. This is
> only
> > > a guess, but I suppose the firmware will be fairly generic, and that
> TI
> > > will provide customized versions to big customers tailored for their
> needs
> > > and use cases. The "official" kernel drivers will then need to be
> changed,
> > > and those changes will have no chance to be accepted in the mainline
> > > kernel. This will lead to forks and fragmentation of the developers
> base
> > > among the big players in the embedded markets. What will be the
> > > compensation for that ? How will the VPSS MCU provide higher
> performances
> > > than the OMAP3 model ?
> >
> > The firmware on the VPSS MCU will be able to configure/control all of
> the
> > functionality that the VPSS MCU has and will be the same for all
> > customers. The only part that may change is the proxy driver of the
> > firmware. The proxy driver is the piece that will be responsible for
> > taking the commands from the driver and telling the firmware to execute
> > the operation.
>
> As the proxy is the "tip of the firmware iceberg", it will be all the
> Linux
> driver will care about. Whether the firmware "backend" is able to
> configure
> and control all of the functionality that the VPSS MCU offers is then
> irrelevant, as the Linux driver will have no way to access that backend
> directly. Is my understanding correct ?

As you saw in my follow-up e-mail the proxy will support all the VPSS APIs so my statement was misleading.

>
> > The initial version of the proxy will support all the standard V4L2
> > operations.  As new operations (such as on the fly video scaling) are
> added
> > to the V4L2 API the firmware may require an update to the proxy driver
> to
> > handle these requests, but the underlying code will remain the same.
>
> Different proxy versions will need different version of the Linux driver.
> That's where fragmentation of the developers base come into play, and
> that's
> the part that worries me.

There should only be one proxy version.

>
> > For customers who wish to use features of the VPSS that are not
> supported
> > by the current V4L2 APIs there are OpenMax components being developed
> that
> > can also talk to the VPSS and support the full set of features of the
> > VPSS.  These components allow for additional use cases such as
> > transferring data directly from other processing blocks such as the DSP
> to
> > the VPSS without ever returning to the host processor (tunneling).
> > However, the OpenMax API does not integrate with most existing software
> > such as applications that use V4L2 drivers for video capture and display.
>
> So the firmware "backend" will expose all its features through OpenMax,
> and
> the proxy will expose a V4L2-like API based on the firmware backend ? In
> that
> case why do we need a proxy at all, why can't the Linux driver access the
> firmware "backend" directly and configure it the way it sees fit ?

The firmware backend will expose all its features through the VPSS APIs.  The OpenMax components will call to proxies running on the VPSS to translate the OpenMax calls to VPSS calls much like the proxy for the V4L2 driver will.  Basically OpenMax is another way to access the VPSS APIs from a user application but can be ignored when considering Linux drivers.

>
> My understanding is that both the backend (for OpenMax) and the proxy will
> be
> accessed through the notify API. Is that correct ?

I believe on the lowest level they will both rely on Notify for sending events.

>
> > What this means is that we will not be creating a bunch of one-off
> drivers
> > for customers who want to use features that are not part of the V4L2
> APIs.
> > Instead those customers will be able to use the OpenMax components.  The
> > Linux V4L2 drivers will focus on enabling customers who are using the
> > standard V4L2 functionalities.  As the V4L2 API is expanded the only
> > changes that would be required would be to the V4L2 driver to implement
> > the new V4L2 APIs and potentially to the proxy driver on the VPSS
> firmware
> > to handle interpreting the new commands.
>
> If the first VPSS proxy version mimics the V4L2 API, changes will
> definitely
> be required to the proxy driver to handle the V4L2 enhancements. This is
> where
> an open-source version of the VPSS firmware could really help, allowing
> modifications to the firmware when needed by the Linux driver.

The VPSS proxy is not mimicking V4L2 APIs.  It is instead exposing all the VPSS APIs to the host CPU.  It would be the responsibility of the V4L2 driver to handle the V4L2 APIs and interact with the VPSS proxy to execute the requested operation using the VPSS API.

>
> > > 2. VPSS firmware and API
> > > ------------------------
> > >
> > > The wiki doesn't state under which license the VPSS MCU firmware will
> be
> > > released, but I suppose it won't be open sourced. The VPSS API, which
> > > seems from the information provided in the wiki to mimic the V4L2 API
> at
> > > least for video capture and output, will thus be controlled by TI and
> > > pretty much set into stone. This means future extensions to the V4L2
> API
> > > that will provide more control over the devices to userspace
> applications
> > > will be stuck with access to a limited subset of the hardware
> > > capabilities, and users will not be able to use the full potential of
> the
> > > system.
> >
> > I'll let one of the engineers from the VPSS firmware team comment on the
> > license here.  As of now my understanding is that the firmware will be
> > binary only.  The VPSS API will define a full set of capabilities, but
> > which APIs will be handled by the proxy driver will be initially limited
> > to the existing V4L2 features.  Thus while you could add new VPSS API
> > calls to the V4L2 driver the proxy on the VPSS MCU may not know how to
> > handle these calls.  As we go forward we will add new calls to the proxy
> > driver.  I'll let the VPSS firmware team comment more here but this is
> > good feedback on the need to at least let people extend the proxy driver
> > on the VPSS to handle future extensions.
>
> I think letting developers modify at least the proxy driver would be a
> very
> good move. It would then be much easier to keep the proxy and the Linux
> driver
> in sync.

Again, we'll look into how this could be enabled.

>
> > > This goes in the opposite direction of what the Linux media community
> is
> > > trying to do today. For the past 6 months now we have been working on
> > > additions to the V4L2 subsystem to create a complete media framework,
> > > targeted at both desktop and embedded use cases. The new APIs that we
> are
> > > developing will let userspace applications discover the internal
> topology
> > > of the hardware and control every parameter in the video pipeline(s).
> This
> > > include dynamic reconfiguration of the pipeline(s),  completely under
> > > control of userspace. With a VPSS API that mimics today's V4L2 API,
> the
> > > OMAP4 video pipeline will look from a userspace perspective as an old-
> > > school V4L2 device, a single black box with a few controls to
> accommodate
> > > common use cases.
> >
> > Again, like I stated above the VPSS API will be capable of exposing all
> of
> > the functionality of the VPSS hardware.  The limitation comes with the
> > proxy driver and what commands it interprets.  This will need to be
> > expanded as new features are added to the Linux kernel.  Basically the
> > VPSS API is full featured but the portions of it that are exposed to
> Linux
> > are initially limited to the current V4L2 APIs with plans to expand
> going
> > forward.  Your feedback indicates that we need to find a way that Linux
> > developers can expand which APIs are exposed to Linux themselves an not
> > need to rely on TI to do so.
>
> There's something I don't get. You mention that the VPSS API will be full-
> featured, but that only portions of it are exposed to Linux. Isn't it
> contradictory ? An API being an Application Programming Interface, all of
> an
> API is exposed by definition. What's not exposed is not part of the API,
> but
> is an internal implementation detail.

My previous comment was wrong.

>
> Can you clarify what you mean by "VPSS API" ? If that's a full-featured
> API
> that can be accessed by the master ARM CPU, why do we need a proxy driver
> and
> a limited proxy API at all ?
>
> > > Regardless of the firmware license, we need a way to control hardware
> > > without any limitation from the ARM processor. This includes explicit
> > > configuration of the pipeline, and access to all configuration
> parameters
> > > of all hardware processing blocks.
> > >
> > > 3. VPSS API usage from kernel space
> > > -----------------------------------
> > >
> > > The wiki mentions that Linux kernel drivers will have access to
> functions
> > > that convert "standard kernel data structures" to VPSS data structures
> as
> > > required by the VPSS firmware. I don't think that's a good idea.
> Please
> > > let kernel drivers do the conversion themselves. Linux kernel drivers
> know
> > > about their data structures better than the VPSS
> > > library/middleware/layer/whatever will do. Instead of providing such
> > > conversion functions, I would like to see the VPSS data structures
> > > properly documented so that kernel driver developers will know what
> > > information the VPSS MCU expects. Filling the VPSS data structures
> > > from "standard kernel data structures" should be left to individual
> > > drivers and/or subsystems.
> >
> > Agreed.  What I was trying to convey here is that we will have functions
> in
> > the Linux kernel drivers that will convert the kernel data structures to
> > VPSS data structures.  These functions will be part of the drivers.
>
> Ok. There was a slight misunderstanding. Thanks for the clarification.
>
> > The intent was that if a V4L2 capture and display driver both take in
> the
> > same kind of data structure (like a buffer descriptor) that they could
> share
> > the function that converts that to a VPSS data structure.  In the end it
> > is still up to each driver to process the input it is given and package
> it
> > appropriately for sending to the VPSS.  The VPSS data structures will be
> > properly documented and will not be hidden from kernel developers.
>
> Thanks.
>
> > > As explained above, I'm really concerned about the following usage
> > > example:
> > >
> > > "Driver calls VPSS set_format function and passes the VPSS format data
> > >
> > > structure. The VPSS set_format function will then:
> > >  - Create a message structure for sending over the Notify IPC
> > >  - Set the command element with the set format command value
> > >  - Set the arguements element to the address of the VPSS format data
> > > structure
> > >  - Call the syslink Notify kernel API and send the address of the
> message
> > > structure to the VPSS"
> > >
> > > This means the VPSS MCU will expose a single black box to the host,
> making
> > > it impossible to use the full capabilities of the hardware with future
> > > V4L2 extensions. Those extensions are developed for a reason. V4L2
> simply
> > > doesn't scale in the light of future (and even today's) embedded
> hardware.
> > > If the VPSS API mimics V4L2 it will suffer from the same problem.
> >
> > I think I addressed this above in stating that the VPSS API is fully
> > featured.  During the initial development we will only expose a subset
> of
> > the VPSS API as needed by the existing V4L2 API.  The list of VPSS APIs
> > that are exposed will grow over time and we need to work out if there is
> a
> > way to enable kernel developers to do this without relying on TI.
>
> What do you mean by "expose a subset of the VPSS API" ? I suppose that the
> VPSS API is basically a set of messages that can be exchanged between the
> master CPU and the VPSS, along with memory layout of data structures. Do
> you
> mean that only a subset of those messages and structures will be
> documented at
> first ? If they're all documented, I don't get what you mean by "expose a
> subset of the VPSS API".
>
> > > One possible solution would be to open-source the VPSS MCU firmware,
> > > allowing the Linux community to expose capabilities needed by future
> V4L2
> > > extensions through the VPSS API.
> >
> > Agreed.
> >
> > > 4. VPSS API usage from userspace
> > > --------------------------------
> > >
> > > I have no specific comment about the userspace API usage, but I would
> > > like to know how you plan to arbitrate access to the hardware from
> both
> > > kernelspace (through a V4L2 driver) and userspace. Will there be a way
> for
> > > kernel drivers to take ownership of specific hardware parts and
> disallow
> > > userspace applications from issuing any message to those parts ? The
> > > design must be carefully reviewed to spot possible race conditions and
> > > even security issues.
> >
> > The VPSS firmware does the hardware arbitration.  If the kernel driver
> > already has a video plane open then a user space application would not
> be
> > able to open the same video plane.
>
> Ok, so there's some kind of locking. I suppose that loading the Linux VPSS
> "ISP" driver will be enough to take ownership of the ISP, forbidding
> userspace
> applications to use it directly (otherwise the kernel driver will not like
> the
> ISP being reconfigured by userspace behind its back, and that could lead
> to a
> crash in kernel space).

Yes, the firmware does all resource management.  If the kernel driver already has a channel open and is using it when a user space application requests it then the user space application will get an error indicating the resource is already in use.

>
> How will the locking be handled ? I suppose "opening a plane" and "closing
> a
> plane" will just be a matter of sending one (or several) messages to the
> VPSS.
> In that case what would prevent a userspace application from sending a
> direct
> message to close a plane that a driver would have opened ? Will the
> firmware
> be able to identify if a close message comes from the same source as a
> previous open message, without any risk of identify spoofing ?

That is a good question.  Let me have one of the firmware guys answer this.  I too am assuming that some other application can't issue a close on a channel if they weren't the one to open it.  Puru, can you answer this?

>
> > > 5. Syslink
> > > ----------
> > >
> > > I still need to review the syslink code. As stated by Hans Verkuil,
> from
> > > a quick look at the source tree the syslink module looks over-
> engineered.
> > > To communicate with the VPSS MCU all that seems to be needed is a
> mailbox-
> > > like interface.
> > >
> > > Furthermore, the mailbox API should probably not be OMAP4-specific.
> Isn't
> > > there already a mailbox API in Linux ? If not I think one should be
> > > developed first, and then syslink should be built on top of it. The
> best
> > > way to see a driver being rejected when submitted to mainline is to
> write
> > > a huge pile of code and then push it in one go.
> >
> > I'll need to let the syslink team comment on this.  I know they are
> > reworking some of the syslink code such that most of the advanced usage
> is
> > done from user space and only the basic message passing is done in the
> > kernel.
>
> That's very good news.
>
> > I'm not sure if they have been working on a generic mailbox interface.
> The
> > syslink Notify module being part of the Linux kernel is a requirement
> for us
> > and they are actively working on getting it into the kernel.
> >
> > Mugdha, can someone from the syslink team comment here?
> >
> > > As a conclusion, I believe that the best chance to get drivers into
> > > mainline and to get developers excited about the product (both are
> related
> > > in my experience) is to be as open as possible and play by the rules
> of
> > > the Linux kernel community. This means that:
> > >
> > > - Big subsystems such as syslink should be broken down to small pieces,
> > > and every piece, especially the low-level ones, must be carefully
> designed
> > > with the whole Linux kernel in mind, not only the OMAP4 platform. APIs
> > > should be made generic when possible.
> > >
> > > - The VPSS MCU firmware should be properly documented, developed in
> the
> > > open and under an open-source license.
> >
> > Thanks for the guidance on this.  This is the kind of feedback we needed.
>
> You're welcome.
>
> > > Those two steps should be performed in tight cooperation with the
> Linux
> > > kernel community.
>
> --
> Regards,
>
> Laurent Pinchart

RE: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design

[Maupin, Chase]

Laurent,

To follow up with some of the comments I made before I got additional clarification about the commands supported by the proxy driver running on the VPSS MCU.  The proxy will support all of the commands used by V4L2 as well as those proposed extensions to V4L2 that Hans has mentioned.  Basically, the list of commands supported at initial release is not only those required today, but a full set for all the features of the VPSS.  In this was as new APIs are added to V4L2 the support for those features will already be supported by the VPSS MCU proxy driver.

As for the license of the firmware this is still being worked.  It is currently under TI proprietary license and will be distributed as binary under Technical Software Publicly Available (TSPA) which means it can be obtained by anyone.  If you feel that source code is required for the firmware at launch to gain acceptance please let us know and we can start working that issue.

Sincerely,
Chase Maupin
Software Applications
Catalog DSP Products
e-mail: chase.maupin@ti.com
phone: (281) 274-3285

For support:
Forums - http://community.ti.com/forums/
Wiki - http://wiki.davincidsp.com/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Laurent Pinchart [mailto:laurent.pinchart@ideasonboard.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 11, 2010 7:23 PM
> To: Maupin, Chase
> Cc: Hans Verkuil; sakari.ailus@maxwell.research.nokia.com;
> mchehab@infradead.org; vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com - This list is to
> discuss the VPSS driver design (May contain non-TIers); linux-
> media@vger.kernel.org
> Subject: Re: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design
> 
> Hi Chase,
> 
> On Monday 08 February 2010 16:08:37 Maupin, Chase wrote:
> > All,
> >
> > Texas Instruments (TI) is working on the design for the V4L2 capture and
> > display drivers for our next generation system-on-chip (SoC) processor
> and
> > would like to solicit your feedback.
> 
> Thank you very much for requesting feedback on the system design. I
> personally
> appreciate this, and I'm pretty sure that the feeling is shared by most of
> the
> Linux kernel developers.
> 
> > If you have additional questions or need more information please feel
> free
> > to contact us (we have setup a mailing list at
> > vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com) so we can answer them.
> 
> I'll answer here as the instructions provided in the wiki to subscribe to
> the
> vpss_driver_design mailing list are incorrect (http://list.ti.com/ isn't
> accessible, the name has no A record associated to it). I've CC'ed the
> list in
> case subscription wouldn't be required to post.
> 
> 1. Multi-core design
> --------------------
> 
> OMAP3 was already a dual-core system, OMAP4 (I assume all this is about
> the
> OMAP4 processors family) seems to push the concept one step further.
> 
> With its heterogeneous multi-core design (ARM master CPU and slave DSPs),
> the
> OMAP architecture delivers high performances at the cost of higher
> development
> time and effort as users need to write software for completely different
> cores, usually using different toolchains. This is in my opinion a good
> (or at
> least acceptable) trade-off between CPU power, development time and power
> consumption (DSPs being more efficient at signal processing at the cost of
> a
> higher development complexity).
> 
> I'm a bit puzzled, however, by how the VPSS MCU will help improving the
> situation compared to the OMAP3 design. The VPSS MCU will provide an API
> that
> will expose a fixed subset of the hardware capabilities. This is only a
> guess,
> but I suppose the firmware will be fairly generic, and that TI will
> provide
> customized versions to big customers tailored for their needs and use
> cases.
> The "official" kernel drivers will then need to be changed, and those
> changes
> will have no chance to be accepted in the mainline kernel. This will lead
> to
> forks and fragmentation of the developers base among the big players in
> the
> embedded markets. What will be the compensation for that ? How will the
> VPSS
> MCU provide higher performances than the OMAP3 model ?
> 
> 2. VPSS firmware and API
> ------------------------
> 
> The wiki doesn't state under which license the VPSS MCU firmware will be
> released, but I suppose it won't be open sourced. The VPSS API, which
> seems
> from the information provided in the wiki to mimic the V4L2 API at least
> for
> video capture and output, will thus be controlled by TI and pretty much
> set
> into stone. This means future extensions to the V4L2 API that will provide
> more control over the devices to userspace applications will be stuck with
> access to a limited subset of the hardware capabilities, and users will
> not be
> able to use the full potential of the system.
> 
> This goes in the opposite direction of what the Linux media community is
> trying to do today. For the past 6 months now we have been working on
> additions to the V4L2 subsystem to create a complete media framework,
> targeted
> at both desktop and embedded use cases. The new APIs that we are
> developing
> will let userspace applications discover the internal topology of the
> hardware
> and control every parameter in the video pipeline(s). This include dynamic
> reconfiguration of the pipeline(s),  completely under control of userspace.
> With a VPSS API that mimics today's V4L2 API, the OMAP4 video pipeline
> will
> look from a userspace perspective as an old-school V4L2 device, a single
> black
> box with a few controls to accommodate common use cases.
> 
> Regardless of the firmware license, we need a way to control hardware
> without
> any limitation from the ARM processor. This includes explicit
> configuration of
> the pipeline, and access to all configuration parameters of all hardware
> processing blocks.
> 
> 3. VPSS API usage from kernel space
> -----------------------------------
> 
> The wiki mentions that Linux kernel drivers will have access to functions
> that
> convert "standard kernel data structures" to VPSS data structures as
> required
> by the VPSS firmware. I don't think that's a good idea. Please let kernel
> drivers do the conversion themselves. Linux kernel drivers know about
> their
> data structures better than the VPSS library/middleware/layer/whatever
> will
> do. Instead of providing such conversion functions, I would like to see
> the
> VPSS data structures properly documented so that kernel driver developers
> will
> know what information the VPSS MCU expects. Filling the VPSS data
> structures
> from "standard kernel data structures" should be left to individual
> drivers
> and/or subsystems.
> 
> As explained above, I'm really concerned about the following usage
> example:
> 
> "Driver calls VPSS set_format function and passes the VPSS format data
> structure. The VPSS set_format function will then:
>  - Create a message structure for sending over the Notify IPC
>  - Set the command element with the set format command value
>  - Set the arguements element to the address of the VPSS format data
> structure
>  - Call the syslink Notify kernel API and send the address of the message
> structure to the VPSS"
> 
> This means the VPSS MCU will expose a single black box to the host, making
> it
> impossible to use the full capabilities of the hardware with future V4L2
> extensions. Those extensions are developed for a reason. V4L2 simply
> doesn't
> scale in the light of future (and even today's) embedded hardware. If the
> VPSS
> API mimics V4L2 it will suffer from the same problem.
> 
> One possible solution would be to open-source the VPSS MCU firmware,
> allowing
> the Linux community to expose capabilities needed by future V4L2
> extensions
> through the VPSS API.
> 
> 4. VPSS API usage from userspace
> --------------------------------
> 
> I have no specific comment about the userspace API usage, but I would like
> to
> know how you plan to arbitrate access to the hardware from both
> kernelspace
> (through a V4L2 driver) and userspace. Will there be a way for kernel
> drivers
> to take ownership of specific hardware parts and disallow userspace
> applications from issuing any message to those parts ? The design must be
> carefully reviewed to spot possible race conditions and even security
> issues.
> 
> 5. Syslink
> ----------
> 
> I still need to review the syslink code. As stated by Hans Verkuil, from a
> quick look at the source tree the syslink module looks over-engineered. To
> communicate with the VPSS MCU all that seems to be needed is a mailbox-
> like
> interface.
> 
> Furthermore, the mailbox API should probably not be OMAP4-specific. Isn't
> there already a mailbox API in Linux ? If not I think one should be
> developed
> first, and then syslink should be built on top of it. The best way to see
> a
> driver being rejected when submitted to mainline is to write a huge pile
> of
> code and then push it in one go.
> 
> 
> 
> As a conclusion, I believe that the best chance to get drivers into
> mainline
> and to get developers excited about the product (both are related in my
> experience) is to be as open as possible and play by the rules of the
> Linux
> kernel community. This means that:
> 
> - Big subsystems such as syslink should be broken down to small pieces,
> and
> every piece, especially the low-level ones, must be carefully designed
> with
> the whole Linux kernel in mind, not only the OMAP4 platform. APIs should
> be
> made generic when possible.
> 
> - The VPSS MCU firmware should be properly documented, developed in the
> open
> and under an open-source license.
> 
> Those two steps should be performed in tight cooperation with the Linux
> kernel
> community.
> 
> --
> Best regards,
> 
> Laurent Pinchart

Re: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design

[Laurent Pinchart]

Hi Chase,

On Tuesday 16 February 2010 14:00:11 Maupin, Chase wrote:
> Laurent,
> 
> To follow up with some of the comments I made before I got additional
> clarification about the commands supported by the proxy driver running on
> the VPSS MCU.  The proxy will support all of the commands used by V4L2 as
> well as those proposed extensions to V4L2 that Hans has mentioned. 
> Basically, the list of commands supported at initial release is not only
> those required today, but a full set for all the features of the VPSS.  In
> this was as new APIs are added to V4L2 the support for those features will
> already be supported by the VPSS MCU proxy driver.

Thank you for the clarification.

A few things are still uncleared to me, as stated in my previous mail (from a 
few minutes ago). My main question is, if the VPSS API is full-featured and 
accessible from the master CPU, why do we need a proxy driver in the firmware 
at all ?

> As for the license of the firmware this is still being worked.  It is
> currently under TI proprietary license and will be distributed as binary
> under Technical Software Publicly Available (TSPA) which means it can be
> obtained by anyone.  If you feel that source code is required for the
> firmware at launch to gain acceptance please let us know and we can start
> working that issue.

I think it would definitely help keeping the Linux driver and the VPSS 
firmware in sync if the VPSS firmware source was available. The firmware 
source code could even be distributed along with the Linux driver.

By the way, will the firmware be loaded at runtime by the driver, or will it 
be stored internally in the chip ?

-- 
Regards,

Laurent Pinchart

RE: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design

[Maupin, Chase]

Laurent,

Responses inline.

Sincerely,
Chase Maupin
Software Applications
Catalog DSP Products
e-mail: chase.maupin@ti.com
phone: (281) 274-3285

For support:
Forums - http://community.ti.com/forums/
Wiki - http://wiki.davincidsp.com/

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Laurent Pinchart [mailto:laurent.pinchart@ideasonboard.com]
> Sent: Thursday, February 25, 2010 6:35 PM
> To: Maupin, Chase
> Cc: Hans Verkuil; sakari.ailus@maxwell.research.nokia.com;
> mchehab@infradead.org; vpss_driver_design@list.ti.com - This list is to
> discuss the VPSS driver design (May contain non-TIers); linux-
> media@vger.kernel.org
> Subject: Re: Requested feedback on V4L2 driver design
> 
> Hi Chase,
> 
> On Tuesday 16 February 2010 14:00:11 Maupin, Chase wrote:
> > Laurent,
> >
> > To follow up with some of the comments I made before I got additional
> > clarification about the commands supported by the proxy driver running
> on
> > the VPSS MCU.  The proxy will support all of the commands used by V4L2
> as
> > well as those proposed extensions to V4L2 that Hans has mentioned.
> > Basically, the list of commands supported at initial release is not only
> > those required today, but a full set for all the features of the VPSS.
> In
> > this was as new APIs are added to V4L2 the support for those features
> will
> > already be supported by the VPSS MCU proxy driver.
> 
> Thank you for the clarification.
> 
> A few things are still uncleared to me, as stated in my previous mail
> (from a
> few minutes ago). My main question is, if the VPSS API is full-featured
> and
> accessible from the master CPU, why do we need a proxy driver in the
> firmware
> at all ?

The proxy driver is the piece of code in the firmware that is actually exposing the VPSS API to the master CPU.  It is responsible for listening for requests from the master CPU and then executing those requests on the VPSS CPU.  Without the proxy there is no way to tell the VPSS CPU which functions to execute.

> 
> > As for the license of the firmware this is still being worked.  It is
> > currently under TI proprietary license and will be distributed as binary
> > under Technical Software Publicly Available (TSPA) which means it can be
> > obtained by anyone.  If you feel that source code is required for the
> > firmware at launch to gain acceptance please let us know and we can
> start
> > working that issue.
> 
> I think it would definitely help keeping the Linux driver and the VPSS
> firmware in sync if the VPSS firmware source was available. The firmware
> source code could even be distributed along with the Linux driver.

Thanks for the input.  We'll keep this in mind and see what we can do.

> 
> By the way, will the firmware be loaded at runtime by the driver, or will
> it
> be stored internally in the chip ?

The firmware will not be stored internally on the chip and will have to be loaded at runtime.  We have not settled on how the loading will be done.  Currently we are thinking on loading it from u-boot similar to an FPGA firmware load but it could also be done from the kernel.

> 
> --
> Regards,
> 
> Laurent Pinchart