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[2003:d8:2f12:1b00:5d6b:db26:e2b7:12]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 5b1f17b1804b1-453823551dbsm11138045e9.17.2025.06.25.00.34.51 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 25 Jun 2025 00:34:52 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <008ec97f-3b33-4b47-a112-9cef8c1d7f58@redhat.com> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 2025 09:34:51 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [PATCH v4 0/2] fix MADV_COLLAPSE issue if THP settings are disabled To: Lorenzo Stoakes , Hugh Dickins Cc: Baolin Wang , akpm@linux-foundation.org, ziy@nvidia.com, Liam.Howlett@oracle.com, npache@redhat.com, ryan.roberts@arm.com, dev.jain@arm.com, baohua@kernel.org, zokeefe@google.com, shy828301@gmail.com, usamaarif642@gmail.com, linux-mm@kvack.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org References: <75c02dbf-4189-958d-515e-fa80bb2187fc@google.com> From: David Hildenbrand Autocrypt: addr=david@redhat.com; keydata= xsFNBFXLn5EBEAC+zYvAFJxCBY9Tr1xZgcESmxVNI/0ffzE/ZQOiHJl6mGkmA1R7/uUpiCjJ dBrn+lhhOYjjNefFQou6478faXE6o2AhmebqT4KiQoUQFV4R7y1KMEKoSyy8hQaK1umALTdL QZLQMzNE74ap+GDK0wnacPQFpcG1AE9RMq3aeErY5tujekBS32jfC/7AnH7I0v1v1TbbK3Gp XNeiN4QroO+5qaSr0ID2sz5jtBLRb15RMre27E1ImpaIv2Jw8NJgW0k/D1RyKCwaTsgRdwuK Kx/Y91XuSBdz0uOyU/S8kM1+ag0wvsGlpBVxRR/xw/E8M7TEwuCZQArqqTCmkG6HGcXFT0V9 PXFNNgV5jXMQRwU0O/ztJIQqsE5LsUomE//bLwzj9IVsaQpKDqW6TAPjcdBDPLHvriq7kGjt WhVhdl0qEYB8lkBEU7V2Yb+SYhmhpDrti9Fq1EsmhiHSkxJcGREoMK/63r9WLZYI3+4W2rAc UucZa4OT27U5ZISjNg3Ev0rxU5UH2/pT4wJCfxwocmqaRr6UYmrtZmND89X0KigoFD/XSeVv jwBRNjPAubK9/k5NoRrYqztM9W6sJqrH8+UWZ1Idd/DdmogJh0gNC0+N42Za9yBRURfIdKSb B3JfpUqcWwE7vUaYrHG1nw54pLUoPG6sAA7Mehl3nd4pZUALHwARAQABzSREYXZpZCBIaWxk ZW5icmFuZCA8ZGF2aWRAcmVkaGF0LmNvbT7CwZgEEwEIAEICGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKCwQW AgMBAh4BAheAAhkBFiEEG9nKrXNcTDpGDfzKTd4Q9wD/g1oFAl8Ox4kFCRKpKXgACgkQTd4Q 9wD/g1oHcA//a6Tj7SBNjFNM1iNhWUo1lxAja0lpSodSnB2g4FCZ4R61SBR4l/psBL73xktp rDHrx4aSpwkRP6Epu6mLvhlfjmkRG4OynJ5HG1gfv7RJJfnUdUM1z5kdS8JBrOhMJS2c/gPf wv1TGRq2XdMPnfY2o0CxRqpcLkx4vBODvJGl2mQyJF/gPepdDfcT8/PY9BJ7FL6Hrq1gnAo4 3Iv9qV0JiT2wmZciNyYQhmA1V6dyTRiQ4YAc31zOo2IM+xisPzeSHgw3ONY/XhYvfZ9r7W1l pNQdc2G+o4Di9NPFHQQhDw3YTRR1opJaTlRDzxYxzU6ZnUUBghxt9cwUWTpfCktkMZiPSDGd KgQBjnweV2jw9UOTxjb4LXqDjmSNkjDdQUOU69jGMUXgihvo4zhYcMX8F5gWdRtMR7DzW/YE BgVcyxNkMIXoY1aYj6npHYiNQesQlqjU6azjbH70/SXKM5tNRplgW8TNprMDuntdvV9wNkFs 9TyM02V5aWxFfI42+aivc4KEw69SE9KXwC7FSf5wXzuTot97N9Phj/Z3+jx443jo2NR34XgF 89cct7wJMjOF7bBefo0fPPZQuIma0Zym71cP61OP/i11ahNye6HGKfxGCOcs5wW9kRQEk8P9 M/k2wt3mt/fCQnuP/mWutNPt95w9wSsUyATLmtNrwccz63XOwU0EVcufkQEQAOfX3n0g0fZz Bgm/S2zF/kxQKCEKP8ID+Vz8sy2GpDvveBq4H2Y34XWsT1zLJdvqPI4af4ZSMxuerWjXbVWb T6d4odQIG0fKx4F8NccDqbgHeZRNajXeeJ3R7gAzvWvQNLz4piHrO/B4tf8svmRBL0ZB5P5A 2uhdwLU3NZuK22zpNn4is87BPWF8HhY0L5fafgDMOqnf4guJVJPYNPhUFzXUbPqOKOkL8ojk CXxkOFHAbjstSK5Ca3fKquY3rdX3DNo+EL7FvAiw1mUtS+5GeYE+RMnDCsVFm/C7kY8c2d0G NWkB9pJM5+mnIoFNxy7YBcldYATVeOHoY4LyaUWNnAvFYWp08dHWfZo9WCiJMuTfgtH9tc75 7QanMVdPt6fDK8UUXIBLQ2TWr/sQKE9xtFuEmoQGlE1l6bGaDnnMLcYu+Asp3kDT0w4zYGsx 5r6XQVRH4+5N6eHZiaeYtFOujp5n+pjBaQK7wUUjDilPQ5QMzIuCL4YjVoylWiBNknvQWBXS lQCWmavOT9sttGQXdPCC5ynI+1ymZC1ORZKANLnRAb0NH/UCzcsstw2TAkFnMEbo9Zu9w7Kv AxBQXWeXhJI9XQssfrf4Gusdqx8nPEpfOqCtbbwJMATbHyqLt7/oz/5deGuwxgb65pWIzufa N7eop7uh+6bezi+rugUI+w6DABEBAAHCwXwEGAEIACYCGwwWIQQb2cqtc1xMOkYN/MpN3hD3 AP+DWgUCXw7HsgUJEqkpoQAKCRBN3hD3AP+DWrrpD/4qS3dyVRxDcDHIlmguXjC1Q5tZTwNB boaBTPHSy/Nksu0eY7x6HfQJ3xajVH32Ms6t1trDQmPx2iP5+7iDsb7OKAb5eOS8h+BEBDeq 3ecsQDv0fFJOA9ag5O3LLNk+3x3q7e0uo06XMaY7UHS341ozXUUI7wC7iKfoUTv03iO9El5f XpNMx/YrIMduZ2+nd9Di7o5+KIwlb2mAB9sTNHdMrXesX8eBL6T9b+MZJk+mZuPxKNVfEQMQ a5SxUEADIPQTPNvBewdeI80yeOCrN+Zzwy/Mrx9EPeu59Y5vSJOx/z6OUImD/GhX7Xvkt3kq Er5KTrJz3++B6SH9pum9PuoE/k+nntJkNMmQpR4MCBaV/J9gIOPGodDKnjdng+mXliF3Ptu6 3oxc2RCyGzTlxyMwuc2U5Q7KtUNTdDe8T0uE+9b8BLMVQDDfJjqY0VVqSUwImzTDLX9S4g/8 kC4HRcclk8hpyhY2jKGluZO0awwTIMgVEzmTyBphDg/Gx7dZU1Xf8HFuE+UZ5UDHDTnwgv7E th6RC9+WrhDNspZ9fJjKWRbveQgUFCpe1sa77LAw+XFrKmBHXp9ZVIe90RMe2tRL06BGiRZr jPrnvUsUUsjRoRNJjKKA/REq+sAnhkNPPZ/NNMjaZ5b8Tovi8C0tmxiCHaQYqj7G2rgnT0kt WNyWQQ== Organization: Red Hat In-Reply-To: X-Mimecast-Spam-Score: 0 X-Mimecast-MFC-PROC-ID: s_V15SAeAIBjknl1DR7_Cpkay1lLW3zg3XcS3-tgDAw_1750836893 X-Mimecast-Originator: redhat.com Content-Language: en-US Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 2EC2720011 X-Stat-Signature: 1ryhe5684mnodss78a6xi68p1gtmhjny X-Rspam-User: X-Rspamd-Server: rspam01 X-HE-Tag: 1750836898-834540 X-HE-Meta: U2FsdGVkX1+9WLtoCI862BgMMbQDshZsF+0H1PHRLhJA3fqaTRK8mDrDmdnhhXMpUMjngG0iSua8BXS3o/no+OuLcnLY5yMFpBAnknJT9EIrec+LsE9/+ju+NkkBePNZOLA6u8S/+cQFQTQtC09u/YonRC79IqWe4zK5lDz/l5VzshtGNfxux9NTPJZ0J8jNPKce4IOSYc1+NTkJinaa1RvcF6aFlaTFXC5/GbboBwSXj00a6ib3k76Ayg153WcRNafTPGtIZpAPalBDK8CwRBfsdC7w3fgDeu/LbTcNGsjiDEj7Z6jKmZPFEg508EwPKK8sO9Vi0a42U247DVbYm26nQMfk9myyJ4EttNS9Npm+kjMAD0ndzWY0NnUCPu2geS/8KhOR7d+zN3EwdK2jGOdFOjUuJY7Yf6MdTAZJrJkoqE8zwkfpCb7jw7GUwLmajTRX+XyOzpl0JECPwGJii3oKABkl+NlHdVe3BI5J1vqE6ssW14ytdfkF9kYHAFJEzq4mlrn7YgqsysYFnRHjIRVsDiTIbaEoKACNqlsg9O0y3d+vm6OfFPBlxquAfA/+DqkoudKOaLbr9grk/aLknfeiCl8N2gtcSl9OJxDHNyH5bsMOm3l2DlXl3456i7XAgTT0uwMw/FBLHH1Ur2bxFmC4kiNW3G/rU6N0GbqeC16/oTW2A442xyLVicfG3J3VfE7gJca+h5eN+Hz7EQFFuvQ1owVCP2HWXGNbK9PErKdQvVXPnJMz16cTRNPNRCNuHaWEVw/QavuNimT1vsAHqsNEpbDjlUGSYwiw8i/CPlwJCghzzAinbXJski/olYvfYhiZSxA22OOcVlwPRl1PiEA4+gbTGd/nmg5jglidhKEYT7PDMZAXYHbvCgPylI/3ERsnNSDir7sF5Odk2YIV3164U7xAe/lR+G0xuqm0DxhK4xOXrbCgBfD5Pd6RXikgltN2kW1VSBnwRoq2Y/J ytvqlyn8 27mdHaTLvvsfOIz6GjgPno07Q3pySnsc5gEsq32MBzaqTd4aGfbVSD58O/g4X/QQrOkJLIC+t6mtWQNq7+7jrAlIqcLiMexl/7AouACs01/1zsNHdP+HV5ZowvPKNYWZr+A+V X-Bogosity: Ham, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.000000, version=1.2.4 Sender: owner-linux-mm@kvack.org Precedence: bulk X-Loop: owner-majordomo@kvack.org List-ID: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: >> >> We would all prefer a less messy world of THP tunables. I certainly >> find plenty to dislike there too; and wish that a less assertive name >> than "never" had been chosen originally for the default off position. >> >> But please don't break the accepted and documented behaviour of >> MADV_COLLAPSE now. > > Again see above, I absolutely disagree this is documented _clearly_. And > that's the underlying issue here. > > I feel like if you polled 100 system administrators (assuming they knew > about THP) as to how you globally disable THP, probably all 100 would say > you do it via: > > # echo never > /sys/kernel/mm/transparent_hugepage/enabled > Yes. One big problem is that the documentation was not updated. Changing the meaning of "entirely disabled" to "entirely disabled automatically (page faults, khugepaged)" > So shouldn't 'never break userspace' be based on practical reality rather > than a theorised interpretation of documents that sadly are not clear > enough? I think the problem is that there might indeed be more users out there relying on "never+MADV_COLLPASE" to now place THPs than "never+MADV_COLLPASE" to no place THPs. What is the harm when not placing THPs? Performance degradation for some apps? What is the harm when placing THPs although disabled? Making the life for David for debugging customer issues harder :P > >> >> If you want to exclude all possibility of THPs, then please use the >> prctl(PR_SET_THP_DISABLE); or shmem_enabled=deny (I think it was me >> who insisted that be respected by MADV_COLLAPSE back then). > > While it's useful to have this, prctl() is where APIs go to die. It's a > hidden wasteland that nobody knows about, it may as well not exist. > > We have a whole sysctl directory for configuring this stuff. It's sort of > crazy to have that then to have a special prctl() hidden away also... prctl(PR_SET_THP_DISABLE) is today not really a reasonable way for an admin to disable THPs system wide I'm afraid. > >> >> Add a "deny" option to /sys/kernel/mm/transparent_hugepage/enabled >> if you like. (But in these days of filesystem large folios, adding >> new protections against them seems a few years late.) > > Based on a reasonable interpretation of 'never' I would say we retain this > series as-is, and 'deny' could be what 'never' was intended to be before. At least for shmem_enabled never means "unless overwritten per mount through huge=" and "deny" means "force off for all mounts". So "deny" is "harder" Inverting the semantics here might be causing even more problems. -- Cheers, David / dhildenb