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[82.69.66.36]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id 71dfb90a1353d-56fa91bfbffsm14233298e0c.2.2026.04.24.15.26.39 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Fri, 24 Apr 2026 15:26:42 -0700 (PDT) Date: Fri, 24 Apr 2026 23:26:37 +0100 From: David Laight To: Pasha Tatashin Cc: Dave Hansen , David Stevens , Linus Walleij , Will Deacon , Quentin Perret , Thomas Gleixner , Ingo Molnar , Borislav Petkov , Dave Hansen , x86@kernel.org, "H. Peter Anvin" , Andy Lutomirski , Xin Li , Peter Zijlstra , Andrew Morton , David Hildenbrand , Lorenzo Stoakes , "Liam R. Howlett" , Vlastimil Babka , Mike Rapoport , Suren Baghdasaryan , Michal Hocko , Uladzislau Rezki , Kees Cook , linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-mm@kvack.org Subject: Re: [PATCH v2 00/13] Dynamic Kernel Stacks Message-ID: <20260424232637.054f15dd@pumpkin> In-Reply-To: References: <20260424191456.2679717-1-stevensd@google.com> X-Mailer: Claws Mail 4.1.1 (GTK 3.24.38; arm-unknown-linux-gnueabihf) MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Rspamd-Server: rspam11 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: DFDFE40011 X-Stat-Signature: ordzwkgsuz1now1m8xmt7wr5hd1af6m4 X-Rspam-User: X-HE-Tag: 1777069603-39004 X-HE-Meta: U2FsdGVkX1/T121DfYdng0YHAfdc4HDiVHk+nXDFpbNMep+3qoJm19VUW3X1mgz1TJAMNjcReftLjJnomKzHFAK7opz9NmSIrJ/u6qJhee2iM+c2/bK33q0sqXEaANRVKL9aid0OKOFHhHwMghHxWhOJ5zeVr9gXr71GGY5nXYkY7n7Dr6jYojKTvfwPpmE8+wojc2hGsAvJi4VFPbh/L2LECRKhwxjqg3yrh+m5LtlqQgzbpkMN4ra16QzG49phdhSpE83vzSgz0nEQU7XkLdD05ycECKs+zkXB8VuNucCjvfFe3LhcwYG7cqsBNVDKb1AyiD3+2flqff2HTsvXzgpVQT2V3CKQQpGHDT20kde+kR6Qn27WNV2EggO7NQuLyqZYe6YX/VLFlZzBok1+NWee1uN+sMrcesY2HHGeYhjcH6ke2Psd3FoEWwBBmRWTeI8iZYYOCGstafZiZQceL37uHQThFf2DKC0gYRBkflElfmd48oEJQRDy+v1QCeVdWfHazQr9i82ntzj2ALcUIZpyzQuxeG95ZvbpBe2PMt13AXa9+gOfKl0QkiiZLUNxOpQ1I+rZI3zlKq3Hl8crBVspXHNmUe+/+fRMvi3aZG31ZYzHRil6eEgWlHMd8qSJRadwnBnAIeyeLl9fLUiX+e1ks8gKQa0d2h1fabDuOcCLsjWQ9WHdW4Cl+fdJq1BnRt1RLXY5uUVuTf2MZejDBQMKAd4oVWeWl+/sszSwJ8xMVYnanhF/uq1x+viilFDAhMt1Q7tJwpCzTLiRIGQU3QR30ReneThXMfeRsbSIp/ajrPVqARUC9bKoJo5DHF2LO/EAv0qabhbc3NbM9O36ncqBDsKw3L6KR6lrmVfhM/in1ojnQIt/ocSN1KtzOMvzNPEuaP3XmeTVL0HB3SpX6hVwbAvHR+bZPis6wgkHG1iML70fNSqQ+5Co85fNcIN7x5vLFFqxXhAXuTo4drG n6jCjbqM AlPIhFA8s9eCDETDNBo7qA8tOzwmfZsAFBPYhh+CrcvHKU+HAPLfYfsJVOzO4TovLoIQhKPbgmeFW6TUUR8pEATgGeHFdXWAjNi8Z1nJjYD9qEV47hTkdYq+odiHs7Xy2ZgCJFca2OVn//CWhwauS4ru8SWljqfbZIOOhJnSr0CSa0A+DXh2dR3NAQG8JWv/Atn7J8CzNvpHLUrKitxGPazb0B7scG+1+0y0ddDxfBsUlYr5C0uz4fI/r9m9SkrSMGlg5q6rsi5Cw9EM52eyRUU1KOCF3gxzHmjsGXKr9hB+F0NfnusRZ91mraagN9znb1OlQCNZODF9jcyhf4Kuat9vYya9cZOJGrCmlbz0XyMTvMlFhYlPIW6SJgLy2Uum+J6QIvB3qsxthb08QPY6M7ssFA59Y7LAbCNtPNs5RfaqWFbXVcJikJG8Q8Ij2N7Ze2gjmnbzFOPMmxJcmoJCYaZt7TEaPomkIr2zic2tBUsSusPU= Sender: owner-linux-mm@kvack.org Precedence: bulk X-Loop: owner-majordomo@kvack.org List-ID: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: On Fri, 24 Apr 2026 21:35:20 +0000 Pasha Tatashin wrote: > On 04-24 12:41, Dave Hansen wrote: > > On 4/24/26 12:14, David Stevens wrote: > > > The question is then: is this approach something that is fundamentally > > > untenable in the kernel > > > > Yes. Fundamentally untenable. > > > > Not allowing stack faults has been a wonderful simplification. It's one > > of those things that just plain makes the kernel easier to maintain. > > Saving low single digits of system memory is not exactly making me eager > > to go back to the harder-to-maintain days. > > > > I seriously doubt that this 1% is the lowest hanging fruit for memory > > bloat on these systems. ;) > > This true until, in a fleet of millions of machines, you encounter a > one-in-a-billion chance of a stack overflow. You are then forced to > double the statically allocated kernel stacks on every machine, paying a > memory tax even though 99.999..% of threads never exceed 4K. This > overhead accumulates to petabytes of wasted capacity. And then you hit a stack fault in some path where you can't sleep and there isn't any available kernel memory. An alternative idea is to arrange for some system calls to sleep in userspace, so when the thread is woken it re-executes the system call. It then makes sense to assign the kernel stack to the process when it enters the kernel. That might mean that you don't need a kernel stack for all the threads sleeping in futex() - it might even be possible to do the retry in userspace saving the second kernel entry most of the time. It is all 'hard and difficult' though. The easier solution is to rewrite the system code so it doesn't have 1000s of threads :-) David > > Pasha >