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bh=/uqwzRJTgHPHPNS19expObzWKV7+uMZqV0B7nMbLp50=; b=awBDxQONGsVuBjfiZW9ON4mv6F LbIeWGC9Sa8HztQtmcFMntbWaM8gHVQdZ2/PUELcpbY9289SkCm+LC+n7tpPczl35MIgqI/b9Aa8H lXudemm+DWmpAjdkMH/HnmknMDPuq2+qwiPH+iUqZ3IfRbnz8Ae801grYNbOHSPigEO2GPvNs1K5q ZTVW9vJGR9UctsDszUr/nqI+DlO92es2lmPKQTmL4uw2urE/MuExs2nQ1507wG0kCCvuxI5VsRPY/ fN/uGoRinATuRpjYVdFE7krDH7uB3bNBRdz/kvEcxcfpRhgSV2/ojiASCH3CgeApFOr5vGEZ4r231 zls1gNMg==; Received: from [2001:8b0:10b:5:a10:bfc:a858:f6d3] (helo=u09cd745991455d.ant.amazon.com) by casper.infradead.org with esmtpsa (Exim 4.99.1 #2 (Red Hat Linux)) id 1x4yTv-0000000AyTl-08CV; Fri, 11 Sep 2026 10:27:43 +0000 Message-ID: <2f1316389d0555418b5793d4eaf7ff3e81d5fe94.camel@infradead.org> Subject: Re: [RFC PATCH 0/3] liveupdate: Move to feature flags for LUO and memfd ABI compatibility From: David Woodhouse To: Jason Gunthorpe , Sean Christopherson Cc: David Matlack , Logan Odell , arnd@arndb.de, pasha.tatashin@soleen.com, rppt@kernel.org, pratyush@kernel.org, graf@amazon.com, akpm@linux-foundation.org, pbonzini@redhat.com, maz@kernel.org, oupton@kernel.org, bhelgaas@google.com, alex@shazbot.org, kevin.tian@intel.com, baolu.lu@linux.intel.com, joro@8bytes.org, will@kernel.org, robin.murphy@arm.com, linux-arch@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, kexec@lists.infradead.org, linux-mm@kvack.org, kvm@vger.kernel.org, linux-arm-kernel@lists.infradead.org, kvmarm@lists.linux.dev, linux-pci@vger.kernel.org, iommu@lists.linux.dev Date: Fri, 11 Sep 2026 11:27:12 +0100 In-Reply-To: <20260910225728.GB857650@nvidia.com> References: <20260904160009.GV4157646@nvidia.com> <20260905012403.GX4157646@nvidia.com> <20260910143448.GD3968357@nvidia.com> <20260910171210.GF3968357@nvidia.com> <20260910221832.GH3968357@nvidia.com> <20260910225728.GB857650@nvidia.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg="sha-256"; protocol="application/pkcs7-signature"; boundary="=-VIsjdpm5lmlGU2eWiQEf" User-Agent: Evolution 3.60.3-0ubuntu1~ppa10~24.04 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-SRS-Rewrite: SMTP reverse-path rewritten from by casper.infradead.org. See http://www.infradead.org/rpr.html X-Rspam-User: X-Rspamd-Server: rspam08 X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 41DCD1C0007 X-Stat-Signature: 3yc8k8yogky9z5pydkzpm7fb93tbuyr6 X-HE-Tag: 1789122479-226272 X-HE-Meta: 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 wu6yCXfR 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 Sender: owner-linux-mm@kvack.org Precedence: bulk X-Loop: owner-majordomo@kvack.org List-ID: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: --=-VIsjdpm5lmlGU2eWiQEf Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, 2026-09-10 at 19:57 -0300, Jason Gunthorpe wrote: > On Thu, Sep 10, 2026 at 03:42:36PM -0700, Sean Christopherson wrote: > > On Thu, Sep 10, 2026, Jason Gunthorpe wrote: > > > Sean's initial email was asking for strict never-break ABI compatabil= ity > > > rules on top, and that is what I've been reacting to. > >=20 > > No, I was never asking for that.=C2=A0 I think we just have a different= interpretation > > of ABI, or rather are talking about different pieces of ABI. > >=20 > > I am still asking for never-break serialization format compatibility, i= .e. the > > more literal save/restore ABI.=C2=A0 I'm not asking for full backwards/= forwards > > compatibility across all kernels version, i.e. the higher level "kernel= " ABI. > >=20 > > To phrase things differently: I am a-ok if kernels are inherently incom= patible > > because they fundamentally operate differently and/or support different= features. > > I am not ok if we end up with incompatible kernels because the save/res= tore > > interfaces and payloads are poorly designed, lack abstraction, etc.=C2= =A0=20 >=20 > I can more agree with this, it is mostly what I thought we'd end up > doing anyhow with version numbers and growing the structs not > replacing them. >=20 > So you still end up with a version label (string I guess?) because we > can break it from time to time, just the version should have the > feature mechanism layered under it? I'm fine with that Seems reasonable. I'd note that downgrade support *is* important though. So where possible, those new features which are inherently incompatible should be opt-out. That way the admin can disable them when first upgrading to a new kernel version, and enable them only in a *subsequent* update, once that new kernel version has actually rolled out successfully. Again, it's OK if we sometimes can't manage that, but not if it happens just because of poor design, as Sean said above. The thing that *really* concerns me here though, is latency. When we pause guests and kexec underneath them, every *millisecond* is perceived as steal time. I worry that we're designing handover protocols to look *pretty*, and not necessarily go *fast* enough. I'd really love to see these patch series come in with benchmarks. --=-VIsjdpm5lmlGU2eWiQEf Content-Type: application/pkcs7-signature; name="smime.p7s" Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="smime.p7s" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 MIAGCSqGSIb3DQEHAqCAMIACAQExDzANBglghkgBZQMEAgEFADCABgkqhkiG9w0BBwEAAKCCE8Ew ggWvMIIEl6ADAgECAhANkOKMSmGXhF5eMl0rsRhvMA0GCSqGSIb3DQEBDAUAMGUxCzAJBgNVBAYT AlVTMRUwEwYDVQQKEwxEaWdpQ2VydCBJbmMxGTAXBgNVBAsTEHd3dy5kaWdpY2VydC5jb20xJDAi BgNVBAMTG0RpZ2lDZXJ0IEFzc3VyZWQgSUQgUm9vdCBHMjAeFw0yNDAzMTMwMDAwMDBaFw0zNDAz MTIyMzU5NTlaMGIxCzAJBgNVBAYTAlVTMRcwFQYDVQQKEw5EaWdpQ2VydCwgSW5jLjE6MDgGA1UE AxMxRGlnaUNlcnQgQXNzdXJlZCBHMiBTTUlNRSBSU0E0MDk2IFNIQTM4NCAyMDI0IENBMTCCAiIw DQYJKoZIhvcNAQEBBQADggIPADCCAgoCggIBAOfSIeC0vv1xPQ+dgSxbIIrkaru6skAWJYaGFzmv q4Kq+2wU2jxhcWlJg/JeP5jEkq/LM3pn5aaLao79j+XRmS7J1ZpJKUODJVoM4s9MQJhTMvo4qS5Z S64g6QR7Obkz3I1Lr3aWeSBmDDEyzue+NKtuWZ1Cxy3RdXo/w5HgRc3l2AercOM3Gt1XonTzEtTb 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