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[24.9.64.241]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id r14sm4544855oie.43.2021.06.22.16.57.12 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 22 Jun 2021 16:57:13 -0700 (PDT) Subject: Re: Maintainers / Kernel Summit 2021 planning kick-off To: Laurent Pinchart Cc: Steven Rostedt , Konstantin Ryabitsev , "Enrico Weigelt, metux IT consult" , David Hildenbrand , James Bottomley , Greg KH , Christoph Lameter , Theodore Ts'o , Jiri Kosina , ksummit@lists.linux.dev, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-block@vger.kernel.org, linux-fsdevel@vger.kernel.org, linux-mm@kvack.org, netdev@vger.kernel.org, linux-arch@vger.kernel.org, linux-api@vger.kernel.org, Shuah Khan References: <5038827c-463f-232d-4dec-da56c71089bd@metux.net> <20210610182318.jrxe3avfhkqq7xqn@nitro.local> <20210610152633.7e4a7304@oasis.local.home> <37e8d1a5-7c32-8e77-bb05-f851c87a1004@linuxfoundation.org> <3bfbe45c-2356-6db0-e1b8-11b7e37ae858@linuxfoundation.org> From: Shuah Khan Message-ID: <66fce207-2602-6452-9216-01ebde656bcd@linuxfoundation.org> Date: Tue, 22 Jun 2021 17:57:11 -0600 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:78.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/78.8.1 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <3bfbe45c-2356-6db0-e1b8-11b7e37ae858@linuxfoundation.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed Content-Language: en-US Authentication-Results: imf18.hostedemail.com; dkim=pass header.d=linuxfoundation.org header.s=google header.b=Uy8cIxxt; dmarc=pass (policy=none) header.from=linuxfoundation.org; spf=pass (imf18.hostedemail.com: domain of skhan@linuxfoundation.org designates 209.85.210.45 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=skhan@linuxfoundation.org X-Rspamd-Server: rspam02 X-Stat-Signature: ug4f5rhh68qxxd5pqrk4joqj9733m3tn X-Rspamd-Queue-Id: 309B3200113E X-HE-Tag: 1624406234-413509 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Bogosity: Ham, tests=bogofilter, spamicity=0.000000, version=1.2.4 Sender: owner-linux-mm@kvack.org Precedence: bulk X-Loop: owner-majordomo@kvack.org List-ID: On 6/22/21 5:33 PM, Shuah Khan wrote: > On 6/22/21 4:59 PM, Laurent Pinchart wrote: >> Hi Shuah, >> >> On Tue, Jun 22, 2021 at 04:33:22PM -0600, Shuah Khan wrote: >>> On 6/18/21 7:46 AM, Laurent Pinchart wrote: >>>> On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 01:55:23PM -0600, Shuah Khan wrote: >>>>> On 6/10/21 1:26 PM, Steven Rostedt wrote: >>>>>> On Thu, 10 Jun 2021 21:39:49 +0300 Laurent Pinchart wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> There will always be more informal discussions between on-site >>>>>>> participants. After all, this is one of the benefits of=20 >>>>>>> conferences, by >>>>>>> being all together we can easily organize ad-hoc discussions.=20 >>>>>>> This is >>>>>>> traditionally done by finding a not too noisy corner in the=20 >>>>>>> conference >>>>>>> center, would it be useful to have more break-out rooms with A/V >>>>>>> equipment than usual ? >>>>>> >>>>>> I've been giving this quite some thought too, and I've come to the >>>>>> understanding (and sure I can be wrong, but I don't think that I a= m), >>>>>> is that when doing a hybrid event, the remote people will always b= e >>>>>> "second class citizens" with respect to the communication that is=20 >>>>>> going >>>>>> on. Saying that we can make it the same is not going to happen unl= ess >>>>>> you start restricting what people can do that are present, and tha= t >>>>>> will just destroy the conference IMO. >>>>>> >>>>>> That said, I think we should add more to make the communication=20 >>>>>> better >>>>>> for those that are not present. Maybe an idea is to have break out= s >>>>>> followed by the presentation and evening events that include remot= e >>>>>> attendees to discuss with those that are there about what they mig= ht >>>>>> have missed. Have incentives at these break outs (free stacks and >>>>>> beer?) to encourage the live attendees to attend and have a=20 >>>>>> discussion >>>>>> with the remote attendees. >>>>>> >>>>>> The presentations would have remote access, where remote attendees= =20 >>>>>> can >>>>>> at the very least write in some chat their questions or comments. = If >>>>>> video and connectivity is good enough, perhaps have a screen where= =20 >>>>>> they >>>>>> can show up and talk, but that may have logistical limitations. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> You are absolutely right that the remote people will have a hard ti= me >>>>> participating and keeping up with in-person participants. I have a >>>>> couple of ideas on how we might be able to improve remote experienc= e >>>>> without restricting in-person experience. >>>>> >>>>> - Have one or two moderators per session to watch chat and Q&A to=20 >>>>> enable >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 remote participants to chime in and partic= ipate. >>>>> - Moderators can make sure remote participation doesn't go=20 >>>>> unnoticed and >>>>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 enable taking turns for remote vs. people = participating in=20 >>>>> person. >>>>> >>>>> It will be change in the way we interact in all in-person sessions = for >>>>> sure, however it might enhance the experience for remote attendees. >>>> >>>> A moderator to watch online chat and relay questions is I believe ve= ry >>>> good for presentations, it's hard for a presenter to keep an eye on = a >>>> screen while having to manage the interaction with the audience in t= he >>>> room (there's the usual joke of the difference between an introvert = and >>>> an extrovert open-source developer is that the extrovert looks at=20 >>>> *your* >>>> shoes when talking to you, but in many presentations the speaker >>>> nowadays does a fairly good job as watching the audience, at least f= rom >>>> time to time :-)). >>>> >>>> For workshop or brainstorming types of sessions, the highest barrier= to >>>> participation for remote attendees is local attendees not speaking i= n >>>> microphones. That's the number one rule that moderators would need t= o >>>> enforce, I think all the rest depends on it. This may require a larg= er >>>> number of microphones in the room than usual. >>>> >>> >>> Absolutely. Moderator has to make sure the following things happen fo= r >>> this to be effective: >>> >>> - Watch chat and Q&A, Raise hand from remote participants >>> - Enforce some kind of taking turns to allow fairness in >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 participation >>> - Have the speaker repeat questions asked in the room (we do that now >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 in some talks - both remote and in-person - chat a= nd Q&A needs >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 reading out for recording) >>> - Explore live Transcription features available in the virtual conf. >>> =C2=A0=C2=A0=C2=A0 platform. You still need humans watching the trans= cription. >>> - Have a running session notes combined with transcription. >>> >>> Any of these options aren't sustainable when large number of people >>> are participating remotely or in-person. In general a small number of >>> people participate either in person or remote in any case, based on >>> my observation in remote and in-person settings. >>> >>> Maybe we can experiment with one or two workshops this time around >>> and see how it works out. If we can figure an effective way, it would >>> be beneficial for people that can't travel for one reason or the >>> other. >> >> Can we nominate moderators ahead of time ? For workshop-style >> discussions, they need to be a person who won't participate actively i= n >> the discussions, as it's impossible to both contribute and moderate at >> the same time. >> >=20 > Correct. It will be impossible to participate and moderate in workshop > setting. We have to ask for volunteers and nominate moderators ahead of > time. >=20 Subsystems could seek volunteers from other subsystems perhaps ... thanks, -- Shuah