Re: [RFC, PATCH 00/12] userfaultfd: working set tracking for VM guest memory

[Peter Xu <peterx@redhat.com>]

On Fri, Apr 24, 2026 at 12:37:35PM +0100, Kiryl Shutsemau wrote:
> On Thu, Apr 23, 2026 at 04:10:30PM -0400, Peter Xu wrote:
> > On Thu, Apr 23, 2026 at 09:25:30PM +0200, David Hildenbrand (Arm) wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > The other thing is, as I mentioned in the other email, I still don't know
> > > > how the current RW protection would work for anonymous.  I don't yet think
> > > > the user swapper can read the anon page with RW-protected pgtables.  So far
> > > > my understanding is maybe you only care about shmem so it's fine, but it'll
> > > > always be great to confirm with you.
> 
> 
> That's true. We use vhost and therefore shmem in our setup.

I see, thanks for confirming.

Side note: I believe host works for anon too since GUP works for anon, but
it doesn't matter as long as we know anon isn't a must.

> 
> One idea I had about how to make atomic eviction for anon is extending
> process_vm_read() and process_madvise():
> 
> - Add a flag to process_vm_read() to bypass the protnone check on
>   accessible (or only RWP?) VMAs.
> 
> - Allow process_madvise(MADV_DONTNEED) when the caller already has
>   ptrace write access to the target.
> 
> The standing objection to remote DONTNEED has been "destructive", but
> process_vm_writev() already lets a ptrace-capable caller overwrite
> arbitrary anon with attacker-chosen content. DONTNEED is strictly
> weaker — it zeroes, it does not inject — so the trust model is already
> established.
> 
> > > I wonder if uffdio_move could be used for a swapper implementation instead?
> 
> I considered it. UFFDIO_MOVE can in principle relocate the cold folio
> into a staging VMA inside the VMM, which then reads it and drops it.
> The downside is the VMM has to maintain a second address range and
> serialise eviction through it. A purpose-built primitive — something
> like UFFDIO_EVICT that zaps the PTE and returns the folio contents
> (optionally to an fd for io_uring) — seems cleaner.

Right, the other thing is unnecessary overhead on the extra pgtable
operations when moving to the staging VMA (e.g. tlb flush).

> 
> 
> > If RW is justified to be useful first, maybe.
> > 
> > I had a gut feeling Kirill's use case doesn't use anon at all, then if
> > nobody needs it we can still decide to not support anon.
> > 
> > > 
> > > If we ever have to read from a protnone page, maybe we could teach ptrace access
> > > to do it, or have something that can read from prot_none areas -- like
> > > uffdio_copy, which can write to prot-none areas.
> > 
> > Somethinig like swap_access() in my proposal can also partly achieve that.
> > 
> > https://lore.kernel.org/all/aYuad2k75iD9bnBE@x1.local/
> 
> A maccess()-style primitive that reads through PROT_NONE is a reasonable
> building block and overlaps with part of what UFFDIO_EVICT would need.
> 
> > There, it was only about reading from swap so far, though.  But that one
> > might be easier to be extended to read PROT_NONE and directly put data into
> > buffer user specified (ps: in my local tree impl I named it maccess() to
> > pair with mincore(), but it doesn't really matter; it doesn't even need to
> > be a syscall..).
> > 
> > To me, the interfacing is not a major issue.  The major question I have is
> > why RW protection can help in swap system impl when we already have uffd-wp.
> > 
> > So I want to make sure the use case can't be implemented by uffd-wp already.
> > Because that's really what we might do for QEMU.
> 
> Race-free eviction can definitely be implemented with uffd-wp already.
> But not proper working set discovery.

Good.  Then we can focus the discussion on hotness tracking with RWP and
its benefits, and compare it with a pure access bit focused tracking system
(as I mentioned in the other reply).

Thanks,

-- 
Peter Xu