some comments re: dosemu 1.1.99 (fwd)

some comments re: dosemu 1.1.99 (fwd)

[Bart Oldeman]

---------- Forwarded message ----------
Date: Thu, 16 Oct 2003 10:36:22 -0400
From: Dave Phillips <dlphilp@bright.net>
To: bartoldeman@users.sourceforge.net
Subject: some comments re: dosemu 1.1.99

Hi Bart:

   I'm currently rewriting my book (Book Of Linux Music & Sound) and have just finished the Emulators chapter. I updated to the 1.2 release
candidate and wanted to say a few words to you about it.

   First, congratulations to the entire team a job very well done. A number of minor irritations have been removed (shift-tab works in Sequencer
Plus!) and overall the system is easier to use and configure (I'm using the binary distro, btw).

   I was especially impressed when I fired up two long-standing "no joy" apps under dosemu. M/pc is a Voyetra product from the late 80s/early
90s that runs under an included runtime version of Windows 2.0 (!). Back in the days of dosemu 0.66 or so I was able to run it under the
emulation, but later versions didn't like it at all. 1.1.99 now gets to the Win 2.0 splash screen but hangs after that; still, that's further
than I've got for quite some time.

   The other app in question is Sound Globs, an excellent algorithmic MIDI composition program. I never got very far with SG under dosemu, the
splash screen would appear then the app would just hang. Curiously, another app (Drummer) from the same company works beautifully under dosemu.
However, I'm now able to open and run the program, but something happens when it opens that kills its MIDI activity. The program appears to be
working, it just doesn't send any MIDI data. Upon opening it sends a big MIDI reset to my synths (including a big chord with no apparent
note-off), then I get no joy. :(  I'm still working with it though, trying to at least create some MIDI files for later use.

   Anyway, I'd like to send these apps to someone on the dosemu team for possible testing at your level. I sent M/pc to Stas quite some time
ago, he said it worked for him (after hanging on to that Win 2.0 screen for a long time) but gave no other details. I'm not sure what I might
attack in the dosemu configuration, so any and all advice will be vastly appreciated.

   I understand you're probably quite busy, so don't bother with a response if you've no time. But if possible please pass this message on to
anyone you think could help me here. TIA!

Best regards,

Dave Phillips

Re: some comments re: dosemu 1.1.99 (fwd)

[Clarence Dang]

Hi,

> The other app in question is Sound Globs, an excellent algorithmic MIDI
> composition program. 
> (...)
> I'm now able to open and run the program, but something happens when it
> opens that kills its MIDI activity. The program appears to be working, it
> just doesn't send any MIDI data. Upon opening it sends a big MIDI reset to
> my synths (including a big chord with no apparent note-off), then I get no
> joy. :(  I'm still working with it though, trying to at least create some
> MIDI files for later use.
>
Are you using midid?  If so, is ~/.dosemu/run/dosemu-midi a pipe?  If it's 
only a file, MIDI events will just accumulate in there; that might explain 
why you get a single note at startup but no MIDI after that.

Clarence

Re: some comments re: dosemu 1.1.99 (fwd)

[Stas Sergeev]

Hello.

Bart Oldeman wrote:
> From: Dave Phillips <dlphilp@bright.net>
> To: bartoldeman@users.sourceforge.net
> Subject: some comments re: dosemu 1.1.99

> Anyway, I'd like to send these apps to someone on the dosemu team 
> for possible testing at your level.
There is only one proper place for that:
BTS at SourceForge. Attaching the files
elsewhere has a very big chances of being
ignored/missed/forgotten. You sent it to
me privately because these times there was
no BTS for dosemu.

> I sent M/pc to Stas quite some time
> ago, he said it worked for him (after hanging on to that Win 2.0 screen 
> for a long time)
I don't remember how exactly it worked for
me, but I guess it never produced any music
output. I only remember it started up and
was functional unless I tried to play music
with it.
Only now (right now) I have committed the patch
that allows vapimpu.com to initialize, and
therefore M to produce the music. Upgrade your
dosemu from CVS and find vapimpu.com now
functional.

> but gave no other details.
Did I? Well, there could be lots of reasons.
Probably because you haven't tested some patch
to midid that I did for you, or because you
were using 1.0.2, or because your page still
refers to an old, non-functional pc-speaker
drivers instead of mine that is up-to-date and
is perfectly functional? :)) Well, I don't
really remember:)
But jokes aside, the problem might probably be
your DOS version (try MS-DOS 6.22 or PC-DOS 7
with setver.exe). And yes, that program still
hangs on a startup screen for about 2 minutes
and the mouse doesn't work if you use the
internal driver (which is justified in that case),
but other than that it works perfectly here.

Re: some comments re: dosemu 1.1.99 (fwd)

[Dave Phillips]

Clarence Dang wrote:

[re: Sound Globs opening noise]

>>I'm now able to open and run the program, but something happens when it
>>opens that kills its MIDI activity. The program appears to be working, it
>>just doesn't send any MIDI data. Upon opening it sends a big MIDI reset to
>>my synths (including a big chord with no apparent note-off), then I get no
>>joy. :(  I'm still working with it though, trying to at least create some
>>MIDI files for later use.
>>
>>    
>>
>Are you using midid?  If so, is ~/.dosemu/run/dosemu-midi a pipe?  If it's 
>only a file, MIDI events will just accumulate in there; that might explain 
>why you get a single note at startup but no MIDI after that.
>
Hi Clarence:

  Actually it's a bunch of notes sounding at once (i.e. a chord). I 
remember beta testing a version of Sequencer Plus that did exactly the 
same thing, and the programmers at Voyetra fixed it. They told me that 
the sequencer did a complete MIDI reset upon opening, which makes sense, 
but they also realized it was an error to send a bunch of MIDI note-on 
messages. Btw, when I run Sound Globs on a dedicated DOS machine this 
effect does not occur.

  No, I'm not using midid. ~/.dosemu/run/dosemu-midi is linked to 
/dev/snd/midiC1D0, ALSA's virtual MIDI card. In the past I've found that 
method to be much les latency-prone than midid, though I recall Stas 
mentioning that the daemon had been much improved lately. I might try it 
again someday, but truthfully the link works so well I'm not inclined to 
change it.

  Thanks for the suggestion, I appreciate any & all input on this matter.

Best regards,

Dave Phillips

Re: some comments re: dosemu 1.1.99 (fwd)

[Dave Phillips]

Stas Sergeev wrote:

> There is only one proper place for that:
> BTS at SourceForge. Attaching the files
> elsewhere has a very big chances of being
> ignored/missed/forgotten. You sent it to
> me privately because these times there was
> no BTS for dosemu.

Hi Stas:

No fear, I have and had no intention of posting the files on this or any 
other list. I'll check out BTS (I'm not familiar with it).

>> I sent M/pc to Stas quite some time
>> ago, he said it worked for him (after hanging on to that Win 2.0 
>> screen for a long time)
>
> I don't remember how exactly it worked for
> me, but I guess it never produced any music
> output. I only remember it started up and
> was functional unless I tried to play music
> with it.
> Only now (right now) I have committed the patch
> that allows vapimpu.com to initialize, and
> therefore M to produce the music. Upgrade your
> dosemu from CVS and find vapimpu.com now
> functional.

Very cool, I'll check it out. However, I should note that I've always 
been able to initialize vapimpu.com as long as :

    1. the version number was appropriate (the last produced versions 
wouldn't work no matter what I tried)
    2. I added the IRQ number

So this invocation :

        vapimpu /IRQ:7

has worked for years.

>> but gave no other details.
>
> Did I? Well, there could be lots of reasons.
> Probably because you haven't tested some patch
> to midid that I did for you, or because you
> were using 1.0.2, or because your page still
> refers to an old, non-functional pc-speaker
> drivers instead of mine that is up-to-date and
> is perfectly functional? :)) Well, I don't
> really remember:) 

I probably left off testing midid after I discovered that linking 
~/.dosemu/run/dosemu-midi to /dev/snd/midiC1D0 (my ALSA virtual MIDI 
card) responded with much lower latency. But I should check out your 
latest work, IIRC you said you had drastically reduced latency.

I should also mention that I'm typically working on a dozen or more 
projects at a time. I'm not always able to maintain my correspondence, 
and I'm often forced to rather abruptly turn my attention towards 
another project. Sorry about that, it's not personal.

Can you cite where I've referred to using the PC-speaker driver in 
DOSemu ? I don't recall that I've ever mentioned using the speaker 
driver, but I'll gladly remove/update any references to it. I do not 
recommend the PC speaker to anyone actually making music with a computer.

> But jokes aside, the problem might probably be
> your DOS version (try MS-DOS 6.22 or PC-DOS 7
> with setver.exe). And yes, that program still
> hangs on a startup screen for about 2 minutes
> and the mouse doesn't work if you use the
> internal driver (which is justified in that case),
> but other than that it works perfectly here.

Outstanding, that's most encouraging. I'm now using the FreeDOS package 
available from dosemu.org, but I don't find setver in its bin directory. 
Can you recommend a version to use with FreeDOS ?

You may be correct, I had totally forgotten about having to use setver. 
Your response also makes me aware that I *really* need to update or get 
rid of that old page re: using DOSemu to run Sequencer Plus and other 
DOS MIDI apps. I've just completed the rewrite of the Emulators chapter 
for the next edition of my book, the information is up-to-date (for now 
;) and very positive re: using DOSemu to run such apps.

Best regards,

Dave Phillips

Re: some comments re: dosemu 1.1.99 (fwd)

[Stas Sergeev]

Hello.

Dave Phillips wrote:
> Very cool, I'll check it out. However, I should note that I've always 
> been able to initialize vapimpu.com as long as :
> 1. the version number was appropriate
Version of vapimpu.com?

> (the last produced versions 
> wouldn't work no matter what I tried)
Probably now it will. If not - it is
probably a bug in dosemu.

> 2. I added the IRQ number
> So this invocation : 
> vapimpu /IRQ:7 
> has worked for years.
I see, and now I recalled that's exactly
how M worked for me in the past:)
Faking the irq number seems to help, although
it still says "MPU type unknown".
Now, as IRQs are actually working for MPU,
it is enough to run it without parameters.

> Can you cite where I've referred to using the PC-speaker driver
Well, I might be confusing something, but I
thought you have some relations with
www.linux-sound.org, haven't you? If so,
here is a quote:
---
PC Speaker
          PC Speaker Driver old driver from Humboldt University in Berlin
          PC Speaker Driver Patch from Erik Inge Bolso
---
If you have nothing to do with that site
then I might have confused you with someone
else.

> I do not 
> recommend the PC speaker to anyone actually making music with a 
> computer.
Unless he have no other sound card I assume.

> Outstanding, that's most encouraging. I'm now using the FreeDOS package 
> available from dosemu.org, but I don't find setver in its bin 
> directory.
setver doesn't matter in that case as FreeDOS
is not supposed to work with Windows (probably
any), this is from official sources.
I tested with PC-DOS.

> Can you recommend a version to use with FreeDOS ?
Version of what? If you have any version of
M that doesn't require Windows to run, this
version might be appropriate. Otherwise use
MS-DOS or PC-DOS to run Windows.

Re: some comments re: dosemu 1.1.99 (fwd)

[Dave Phillips]

Stas Sergeev wrote:

>> Very cool, I'll check it out. However, I should note that I've always 
>> been able to initialize vapimpu.com as long as :
>> 1. the version number was appropriate
>
> Version of vapimpu.com?

I've successfully used versions 1.26 and 1.33. Vesion 1.51 didn't work 
even with the IRQ flag. I'm eager to try your improved code: I just 
received a report from another DOSemu + Sequencer Plus user who states 
that the SAPI drive also loads correctly. IIRC that driver is supposed 
to access the OPL3 soundchip but he says he can't get it working 
correctly on his laptop. I think it's probably a hardware problem, or 
perhaps he needs to invoke a command-line flag when he loads the driver.

>> Can you cite where I've referred to using the PC-speaker driver
>
> Well, I might be confusing something, but I
> thought you have some relations with
> www.linux-sound.org, haven't you? If so,
> here is a quote:
> ---
> PC Speaker
>          PC Speaker Driver old driver from Humboldt University in Berlin
>          PC Speaker Driver Patch from Erik Inge Bolso
> ---
> If you have nothing to do with that site
> then I might have confused you with someone
> else.

Ah, I see what you're talking about now. I thought you were referring to 
those links in the context of DOSemu. So you have an improved speaker 
driver available ? Tell me where it's located and I'll gladly add a link 
to it. (Yes, linux-sound.org is mine).

>> Outstanding, that's most encouraging. I'm now using the FreeDOS 
>> package available from dosemu.org, but I don't find setver in its bin 
>> directory.
>
> setver doesn't matter in that case as FreeDOS
> is not supposed to work with Windows (probably
> any), this is from official sources.
> I tested with PC-DOS.
>
>> Can you recommend a version to use with FreeDOS ?
>
> Version of what?

Setver. Never mind though, I did some searches and discovered that 
setver has been dropped from the FreeDOS development tree. I tried 
spoofing the version in the FreeDOS config.sys file (as the docs 
suggest) but it made no difference. See below...

> If you have any version of
> M that doesn't require Windows to run, this
> version might be appropriate. Otherwise use
> MS-DOS or PC-DOS to run Windows.

Aha, so FreeDOS will not run Windows ? Okay, I'll see if I can access 
MS-DOS on another drive here, I think I still have it installed somewhere.

Thanks for the help, Stas. I'm very impressed with DOSemu's 
capabilities, particularly its audio and MIDI support. You're all doing 
a fantastic job !

Best regards,

Dave Phillips

Re: some comments re: dosemu 1.1.99 (fwd)

[Stas Sergeev]

Hello.

Dave Phillips wrote:
>> Version of vapimpu.com?
>  I've successfully used versions 1.26 and 1.33. Vesion 1.51 didn't work 
>  even with the IRQ flag.
OK, waiting for you to test it with
the dosemu CVS HEAD.

> I'm eager to try your improved code: I just 
> received a report from another DOSemu + Sequencer Plus user who states 
> that the SAPI drive also loads correctly. IIRC that driver is supposed 
> to access the OPL3 soundchip but he says he can't get it working 
> correctly on his laptop.
All that years long OPL3 is still not
implemented. This is pretty sad. I tried
it a couple of times and you can find the
experemental patch on my page which works
more or less but is abandonned (another
approach is required). You can try it (on
your own risk) and see how good it works
for you.

> So you have an improved speaker 
> driver available ?
Yes. Typing "pc-speaker linux" in google
shows it at a place 1.

> Tell me where it's located and I'll gladly add a 
> link to it.
www.geocities.com/stssppnn/pcsp.html

> Aha, so FreeDOS will not run Windows ?
Yes, this is even stated in dosemu-HOWTO.txt somehow.
Although it is written there that Win3.1 won't
work, I suspect any other versions of Windows
won't either (2.0 doesn't seem to atleast).

> I'm very impressed with DOSemu's 
> capabilities, particularly its audio and MIDI support. You're all doing 
> a fantastic job !
Yes. A little more efforts to implement OPL3
and we'd have a flawless sound support, but
it looks like it got stalled for now.

Re: some comments re: dosemu 1.1.99 (fwd)

[Ryan Underwood]

Hi,

On Mon, Oct 20, 2003 at 10:39:43PM +0400, Stas Sergeev wrote:
> 
> >I'm eager to try your improved code: I just 
> >received a report from another DOSemu + Sequencer Plus user who states 
> >that the SAPI drive also loads correctly. IIRC that driver is supposed 
> >to access the OPL3 soundchip but he says he can't get it working 
> >correctly on his laptop.

Hmm, for the OPL3, if he has a real chip, can he pass through the
necessary ports in dosemu.conf?

> All that years long OPL3 is still not
> implemented. This is pretty sad. I tried
> it a couple of times and you can find the
> experemental patch on my page which works
> more or less but is abandonned (another
> approach is required). You can try it (on
> your own risk) and see how good it works
> for you.

Well, if it helps, synthulator's plugin interface is done, with
a OPL2 emu plugin, and it waits for me to find out why my ALSA code does not
work.  It would be very easy to create a `opld' that operates in the
same manner as midid does currently and have DOSEMU create the fifo for
it to read from.  DOSEMU could also use the synthulator lib directly
(instead of opld using it and DOSEMU talking to opld).  This would
adding another library dependency which may not be desired, but removing
the need for the daemon (which is sure to be another annoying thing for
users).

A OPL2 HW plugin should be easy but I need to find somebody who knows
the ALSA hwdep opl interface or the OSS direct-FM interface, because I
have no idea how to program them.  Also, I need to figure out how to
acces the opl cell on my vortex card, which takes more looking through
aureal's binaries...

Anyway this should do what I intended in the first place, which is
provide access to hardware and software synth chip through the same
interface, maybe I will have some time this weekend to clean it up and
present it.  BTW this can also be used for Game Blaster and Tandy/PCJR
sound support, only the necessary plugins need to be adapted.  (If
anyone has a real Game Blaster card, they can write the HW plugin for
it... it will need access to /dev/port though for Linux and iopl() for
others)

> >I'm very impressed with DOSemu's 
> >capabilities, particularly its audio and MIDI support. You're all doing 
> >a fantastic job !
> Yes. A little more efforts to implement OPL3
> and we'd have a flawless sound support, but
> it looks like it got stalled for now.

Stas, do you use ICQ or Jabber, if so, please contact me there.

Bye,

-- 
Ryan Underwood, <nemesis at icequake.net>, icq=10317253