From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from smtp.kernel.org (aws-us-west-2-korg-mail-1.web.codeaurora.org [10.30.226.201]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 17E4622424C; Tue, 17 Feb 2026 15:18:41 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=none smtp.client-ip=10.30.226.201 ARC-Seal:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1771341522; cv=none; b=BuzoZdeBv1S+vPEIEGpGmd07KCUYPVIc8rMT83oj8Dgs7TtvBDEsBQ9SDtfzyCG7WzaHCJ36wmoPzoH1SNTA1rVKFozVSBupViSuRhkCjXRtxgMB0ApMqioQjzG5Tl4JdaxrLP48UNx9fl56scKjUYzxzeu57HZMxaGU5iTkfvI= ARC-Message-Signature:i=1; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1771341522; c=relaxed/simple; bh=l8MSqVqEcP4R28T/3AdnSmo1fHHQ/2AP0b1lXylzEJ4=; h=Message-ID:Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References: Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=T8cx2QWc+Ves1mb9gtnhKxE73i/oxkMZ7XajHhrzpRzWoa1AbDF47SxPKNb0CodMqk26/YvrJ0tFK1/A/PDX9AuFJDfJfrjFuhCpxEmRVjiTWXK5tcvozSGJlQcZYLx4Ga1Yp8me2GqWbsFUEdtbGp7mp2y+Gj0ejjEbNUtQwpk= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=1; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kernel.org header.i=@kernel.org header.b=C0ziXEaA; arc=none smtp.client-ip=10.30.226.201 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=kernel.org header.i=@kernel.org header.b="C0ziXEaA" Received: by smtp.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id C9C53C4CEF7; Tue, 17 Feb 2026 15:18:40 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=kernel.org; s=k20201202; t=1771341521; bh=l8MSqVqEcP4R28T/3AdnSmo1fHHQ/2AP0b1lXylzEJ4=; h=Subject:From:To:Cc:Date:In-Reply-To:References:From; b=C0ziXEaAXTK8GrKzAI7uwU+hw7H1IDtatxEpuFzdgW7AW4uEvbpLiz1IZ7sACBcgG NV7PjVEBYT1PNYaDx0Pk8zOyJFFNKsZlG2eKli83RgoM2UhGs/HFIoCW71ASOQYCEq GG14nhTxANVkayZMHLyRKcw/UexvkL+R9JPFt993QO+Qxp0qmUQ7MZpjUivAqLA6Dk jnNnTmJR5PIpCWM3KYYMLbZPsqv2zMkILaAvp06BLE2wgGVS7Y3SsMad1Cwm105DGh 4fwCGXvBc3RLwJUUjoEm+IM9M5vVdQflwKc8nliwIkDP22FGmMTgGn7V4jShxBu3Mp QB5F0CqEzxRIg== Message-ID: <785793ea21fb65c3e721b51f24897b3000e4aec3.camel@kernel.org> Subject: Re: [LSF/MM/BPF TOPIC] Namespace-aware upcalls from kernel filesystems From: Jeff Layton To: Chuck Lever , Shyam Prasad N Cc: lsf-pc@lists.linux-foundation.org, linux-fsdevel , keyrings@vger.kernel.org, CIFS , linux-nfs@vger.kernel.org, Christian Brauner , David Howells Date: Tue, 17 Feb 2026 10:18:39 -0500 In-Reply-To: <510c1f0a-4f42-4ce5-ab85-20d491019c53@app.fastmail.com> References: <7570f43c-8f6c-4419-a8b8-141efdb1363a@app.fastmail.com> <510c1f0a-4f42-4ce5-ab85-20d491019c53@app.fastmail.com> Autocrypt: addr=jlayton@kernel.org; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata=mQINBE6V0TwBEADXhJg7s8wFDwBMEvn0qyhAnzFLTOCHooMZyx7XO7dAiIhDSi7G1NPxw n8jdFUQMCR/GlpozMFlSFiZXiObE7sef9rTtM68ukUyZM4pJ9l0KjQNgDJ6Fr342Htkjxu/kFV1Wv egyjnSsFt7EGoDjdKqr1TS9syJYFjagYtvWk/UfHlW09X+jOh4vYtfX7iYSx/NfqV3W1D7EDi0PqV T2h6v8i8YqsATFPwO4nuiTmL6I40ZofxVd+9wdRI4Db8yUNA4ZSP2nqLcLtFjClYRBoJvRWvsv4lm 0OX6MYPtv76hka8lW4mnRmZqqx3UtfHX/hF/zH24Gj7A6sYKYLCU3YrI2Ogiu7/ksKcl7goQjpvtV YrOOI5VGLHge0awt7bhMCTM9KAfPc+xL/ZxAMVWd3NCk5SamL2cE99UWgtvNOIYU8m6EjTLhsj8sn VluJH0/RcxEeFbnSaswVChNSGa7mXJrTR22lRL6ZPjdMgS2Km90haWPRc8Wolcz07Y2se0xpGVLEQ cDEsvv5IMmeMe1/qLZ6NaVkNuL3WOXvxaVT9USW1+/SGipO2IpKJjeDZfehlB/kpfF24+RrK+seQf CBYyUE8QJpvTZyfUHNYldXlrjO6n5MdOempLqWpfOmcGkwnyNRBR46g/jf8KnPRwXs509yAqDB6sE LZH+yWr9LQZEwARAQABtCVKZWZmIExheXRvbiA8amxheXRvbkBwb29jaGllcmVkcy5uZXQ+iQI7BB MBAgAlAhsDBgsJCAcDAgYVCAIJCgsEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAUCTpXWPAIZAQAKCRAADmhBGVaCFc65D/4 gBLNMHopQYgG/9RIM3kgFCCQV0pLv0hcg1cjr+bPI5f1PzJoOVi9s0wBDHwp8+vtHgYhM54yt43uI 7Htij0RHFL5eFqoVT4TSfAg2qlvNemJEOY0e4daljjmZM7UtmpGs9NN0r9r50W82eb5Kw5bc/r0km R/arUS2st+ecRsCnwAOj6HiURwIgfDMHGPtSkoPpu3DDp/cjcYUg3HaOJuTjtGHFH963B+f+hyQ2B rQZBBE76ErgTDJ2Db9Ey0kw7VEZ4I2nnVUY9B5dE2pJFVO5HJBMp30fUGKvwaKqYCU2iAKxdmJXRI ONb7dSde8LqZahuunPDMZyMA5+mkQl7kpIpR6kVDIiqmxzRuPeiMP7O2FCUlS2DnJnRVrHmCljLkZ Wf7ZUA22wJpepBligemtSRSbqCyZ3B48zJ8g5B8xLEntPo/NknSJaYRvfEQqGxgk5kkNWMIMDkfQO lDSXZvoxqU9wFH/9jTv1/6p8dHeGM0BsbBLMqQaqnWiVt5mG92E1zkOW69LnoozE6Le+12DsNW7Rj iR5K+27MObjXEYIW7FIvNN/TQ6U1EOsdxwB8o//Yfc3p2QqPr5uS93SDDan5ehH59BnHpguTc27Xi QQZ9EGiieCUx6Zh2ze3X2UW9YNzE15uKwkkuEIj60NvQRmEDfweYfOfPVOueC+iFifbQgSmVmZiBM YXl0b24gPGpsYXl0b25AcmVkaGF0LmNvbT6JAjgEEwECACIFAk6V0q0CGwMGCwkIBwMCBhUIAgkKC wQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEAAOaEEZVoIViKUQALpvsacTMWWOd7SlPFzIYy2/fjvKlfB/Xs4YdNcf9q LqF+lk2RBUHdR/dGwZpvw/OLmnZ8TryDo2zXVJNWEEUFNc7wQpl3i78r6UU/GUY/RQmOgPhs3epQC 3PMJj4xFx+VuVcf/MXgDDdBUHaCTT793hyBeDbQuciARDJAW24Q1RCmjcwWIV/pgrlFa4lAXsmhoa c8UPc82Ijrs6ivlTweFf16VBc4nSLX5FB3ls7S5noRhm5/Zsd4PGPgIHgCZcPgkAnU1S/A/rSqf3F LpU+CbVBDvlVAnOq9gfNF+QiTlOHdZVIe4gEYAU3CUjbleywQqV02BKxPVM0C5/oVjMVx3bri75n1 TkBYGmqAXy9usCkHIsG5CBHmphv9MHmqMZQVsxvCzfnI5IO1+7MoloeeW/lxuyd0pU88dZsV/riHw 87i2GJUJtVlMl5IGBNFpqoNUoqmvRfEMeXhy/kUX4Xc03I1coZIgmwLmCSXwx9MaCPFzV/dOOrju2 xjO+2sYyB5BNtxRqUEyXglpujFZqJxxau7E0eXoYgoY9gtFGsspzFkVNntamVXEWVVgzJJr/EWW0y +jNd54MfPRqH+eCGuqlnNLktSAVz1MvVRY1dxUltSlDZT7P2bUoMorIPu8p7ZCg9dyX1+9T6Muc5d Hxf/BBP/ir+3e8JTFQBFOiLNdFtB9KZWZmIExheXRvbiA8amxheXRvbkBzYW1iYS5vcmc+iQI4BBM BAgAiBQJOldK9AhsDBgsJCAcDAgYVCAIJCgsEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRAADmhBGVaCFWgWD/0ZRi4h N9FK2BdQs9RwNnFZUr7JidAWfCrs37XrA/56olQl3ojn0fQtrP4DbTmCuh0SfMijB24psy1GnkPep naQ6VRf7Dxg/Y8muZELSOtsv2CKt3/02J1BBitrkkqmHyni5fLLYYg6fub0T/8Kwo1qGPdu1hx2BQ RERYtQ/S5d/T0cACdlzi6w8rs5f09hU9Tu4qV1JLKmBTgUWKN969HPRkxiojLQziHVyM/weR5Reu6 FZVNuVBGqBD+sfk/c98VJHjsQhYJijcsmgMb1NohAzwrBKcSGKOWJToGEO/1RkIN8tqGnYNp2G+aR 685D0chgTl1WzPRM6mFG1+n2b2RR95DxumKVpwBwdLPoCkI24JkeDJ7lXSe3uFWISstFGt0HL8Eew P8RuGC8s5h7Ct91HMNQTbjgA+Vi1foWUVXpEintAKgoywaIDlJfTZIl6Ew8ETN/7DLy8bXYgq0Xzh aKg3CnOUuGQV5/nl4OAX/3jocT5Cz/OtAiNYj5mLPeL5z2ZszjoCAH6caqsF2oLyAnLqRgDgR+wTQ T6gMhr2IRsl+cp8gPHBwQ4uZMb+X00c/Amm9VfviT+BI7B66cnC7Zv6Gvmtu2rEjWDGWPqUgccB7h dMKnKDthkA227/82tYoFiFMb/NwtgGrn5n2vwJyKN6SEoygGrNt0SI84y6hEVbQlSmVmZiBMYXl0b 24gPGpsYXl0b25AcHJpbWFyeWRhdGEuY29tPokCOQQTAQIAIwUCU4xmKQIbAwcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAg kKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEAAOaEEZVoIV1H0P/j4OUTwFd7BBbpoSp695qb6HqCzWMuExsp8nZjr uymMaeZbGr3OWMNEXRI1FWNHMtcMHWLP/RaDqCJil28proO+PQ/yPhsr2QqJcW4nr91tBrv/MqItu AXLYlsgXqp4BxLP67bzRJ1Bd2x0bWXurpEXY//VBOLnODqThGEcL7jouwjmnRh9FTKZfBDpFRaEfD FOXIfAkMKBa/c9TQwRpx2DPsl3eFWVCNuNGKeGsirLqCxUg5kWTxEorROppz9oU4HPicL6rRH22Ce 6nOAON2vHvhkUuO3GbffhrcsPD4DaYup4ic+DxWm+DaSSRJ+e1yJvwi6NmQ9P9UAuLG93S2MdNNbo sZ9P8k2mTOVKMc+GooI9Ve/vH8unwitwo7ORMVXhJeU6Q0X7zf3SjwDq2lBhn1DSuTsn2DbsNTiDv qrAaCvbsTsw+SZRwF85eG67eAwouYk+dnKmp1q57LDKMyzysij2oDKbcBlwB/TeX16p8+LxECv51a sjS9TInnipssssUDrHIvoTTXWcz7Y5wIngxDFwT8rPY3EggzLGfK5Zx2Q5S/N0FfmADmKknG/D8qG IcJE574D956tiUDKN4I+/g125ORR1v7bP+OIaayAvq17RP+qcAqkxc0x8iCYVCYDouDyNvWPGRhbL UO7mlBpjW9jK9e2fvZY9iw3QzIPGKtClKZWZmIExheXRvbiA8amVmZi5sYXl0b25AcHJpbWFyeWRh dGEuY29tPokCOQQTAQIAIwUCU4xmUAIbAwcLCQgHAwIBBhUIAgkKCwQWAgMBAh4BAheAAAoJEAAOa EEZVoIVzJoQALFCS6n/FHQS+hIzHIb56JbokhK0AFqoLVzLKzrnaeXhE5isWcVg0eoV2oTScIwUSU apy94if69tnUo4Q7YNt8/6yFM6hwZAxFjOXR0ciGE3Q+Z1zi49Ox51yjGMQGxlakV9ep4sV/d5a50 M+LFTmYSAFp6HY23JN9PkjVJC4PUv5DYRbOZ6Y1+TfXKBAewMVqtwT1Y+LPlfmI8dbbbuUX/kKZ5d dhV2736fgyfpslvJKYl0YifUOVy4D1G/oSycyHkJG78OvX4JKcf2kKzVvg7/Rnv+AueCfFQ6nGwPn 0P91I7TEOC4XfZ6a1K3uTp4fPPs1Wn75X7K8lzJP/p8lme40uqwAyBjk+IA5VGd+CVRiyJTpGZwA0 jwSYLyXboX+Dqm9pSYzmC9+/AE7lIgpWj+3iNisp1SWtHc4pdtQ5EU2SEz8yKvDbD0lNDbv4ljI7e flPsvN6vOrxz24mCliEco5DwhpaaSnzWnbAPXhQDWb/lUgs/JNk8dtwmvWnqCwRqElMLVisAbJmC0 BhZ/Ab4sph3EaiZfdXKhiQqSGdK4La3OTJOJYZphPdGgnkvDV9Pl1QZ0ijXQrVIy3zd6VCNaKYq7B AKidn5g/2Q8oio9Tf4XfdZ9dtwcB+bwDJFgvvDYaZ5bI3ln4V3EyW5i2NfXazz/GA/I/ZtbsigCFc 8ftCBKZWZmIExheXRvbiA8amxheXRvbkBrZXJuZWwub3JnPokCOAQTAQIAIgUCWe8u6AIbAwYLCQg HAwIGFQgCCQoLBBYCAwECHgECF4AACgkQAA5oQRlWghUuCg/+Lb/xGxZD2Q1oJVAE37uW308UpVSD 2tAMJUvFTdDbfe3zKlPDTuVsyNsALBGclPLagJ5ZTP+Vp2irAN9uwBuacBOTtmOdz4ZN2tdvNgozz uxp4CHBDVzAslUi2idy+xpsp47DWPxYFIRP3M8QG/aNW052LaPc0cedYxp8+9eiVUNpxF4SiU4i9J DfX/sn9XcfoVZIxMpCRE750zvJvcCUz9HojsrMQ1NFc7MFT1z3MOW2/RlzPcog7xvR5ENPH19ojRD CHqumUHRry+RF0lH00clzX/W8OrQJZtoBPXv9ahka/Vp7kEulcBJr1cH5Wz/WprhsIM7U9pse1f1g Yy9YbXtWctUz8uvDR7shsQxAhX3qO7DilMtuGo1v97I/Kx4gXQ52syh/w6EBny71CZrOgD6kJwPVV AaM1LRC28muq91WCFhs/nzHozpbzcheyGtMUI2Ao4K6mnY+3zIuXPygZMFr9KXE6fF7HzKxKuZMJO aEZCiDOq0anx6FmOzs5E6Jqdpo/mtI8beK+BE7Va6ni7YrQlnT0i3vaTVMTiCThbqsB20VrbMjlhp f8lfK1XVNbRq/R7GZ9zHESlsa35ha60yd/j3pu5hT2xyy8krV8vGhHvnJ1XRMJBAB/UYb6FyC7S+m QZIQXVeAA+smfTT0tDrisj1U5x6ZB9b3nBg65kc= Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable User-Agent: Evolution 3.58.3 (3.58.3-1.fc43) Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-nfs@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 On Tue, 2026-02-17 at 09:21 -0500, Chuck Lever wrote: >=20 > On Mon, Feb 16, 2026, at 11:14 PM, Shyam Prasad N wrote: > > On Sat, Feb 14, 2026 at 9:10=E2=80=AFPM Chuck Lever wr= ote: > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > On Sat, Feb 14, 2026, at 5:06 AM, Shyam Prasad N wrote: > > > > Kernel filesystems sometimes need to upcall to userspace to get som= e > > > > work done, which cannot be achieved in kernel code (or rather it is > > > > better to be done in userspace). Some examples are DNS resolutions, > > > > user authentication, ID mapping etc. > > > >=20 > > > > Filesystems like SMB and NFS clients use the kernel keys subsystem = for > > > > some of these, which has an upcall facility that can exec a binary = in > > > > userspace. However, this upcall mechanism is not namespace aware an= d > > > > upcalls to the host namespaces (namespaces of the init process). > > >=20 > > > Hello Shyam, we've been introducing netlink control interfaces, which > > > are namespace-aware. The kernel TLS handshake mechanism now uses > > > this approach, as does the new NFSD netlink protocol. > > >=20 > > >=20 > > > -- > > > Chuck Lever > >=20 > > Hi Chuck, > >=20 > > Interesting. Let me explore this a bit more. > > I'm assuming that this is the file that I should be looking into: > > fs/nfsd/nfsctl.c >=20 > Yes, clustered towards the end of the file. NFSD's use of netlink > is as a downcall-style administrative control plane. >=20 > net/handshake/netlink.c uses netlink as an upcall for driving > kernel-initiated TLS handshake requests up to a user daemon. This > mechanism has been adopted by NFSD, the NFS client, and the NVMe > over TCP drivers. An in-kernel QUIC implementation is planned and > will also be using this. >=20 >=20 > > And that there would be a corresponding handler in nfs-utils? >=20 > For NFSD, nfs-utils has a new tool called nfsdctl. >=20 > The TLS handshake user space components are in ktls-utils. See: > https://github.com/oracle/ktls-utils I think the consensus at this point is to move away from usermodehelper as an upcall mechanism. The Linux kernel lacks a container object that allows you to associate namespaces with one another, so you need an already-running userspace process to do that association in userland. netlink upcalls are bound to a network namespace. That works in the above examples because they are also bound to a network namespace. netlink upcalls require a running daemon in that namespace, which is what ties that network namespace to other sorts of namespaces. So, a related discussion we should have is whether and how we should deprecate the old usermodehelper upcalls, given that they are problematic in this way.=20 --=20 Jeff Layton