From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mailserv2.iuinc.com (IDENT:qmailr@mailserv2.iuinc.com [206.245.164.55]) by puffin.external.hp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id FAA06024 for ; Sat, 6 Jan 2001 05:23:00 -0700 Received: from parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk (HELO www.linux.org.uk) (195.92.249.252) by mailserv2.iuinc.com with SMTP; 6 Jan 2001 12:26:22 -0000 Received: from willy by www.linux.org.uk with local (Exim 3.13 #1) id 14EsQP-0004CG-00 for parisc-linux@thepuffingroup.com; Sat, 06 Jan 2001 12:26:21 +0000 Date: Sat, 6 Jan 2001 12:26:21 +0000 From: Matthew Wilcox To: parisc-linux@thepuffingroup.com Message-ID: <20010106122621.C14922@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Sender: Subject: [parisc-linux] website List-ID: As I've mentioned before, I'm not happy with several aspects of the proposed replacement website. * I believe there is too much boilerplate HTML which will quickly get out of sync between the different files. * The proposed site doesn't have the useful `last updated' feature. * The text is too small. * It uses too many tables. * The gives no useful information (also a problem with the current site.) * Too many directories containing only one file. * It now requires perl to build. Instead of just whining about it, I've taken the design of the proposed site and merged it into our current site. I don't propose to put the results back into CVS yet, so I've made a tarball available from ftp://puffin.external.hp.com/pub/parisc/newsite.tar.bz2. It merges most of the proposed site into te current site, fixing the following things: * Removes all boilerplate HTML and places it in common files. * Reintroduces the `last updated' text. * Puts useful information in the title * Eliminates useless directories * Builds using sh, grep, sed, date, pwd, head, tr. There are a lot of things I like about the proposed site, that's why I'm bothering to try to fix the things I don't like. I haven't tried to fix the tables and font sizes because these are aesthetic design issues, not technical issues. This tarball doesn't contain everything I like from the proposed site; it represents a merge of the more important bits into the current site. Other bits should be brought across, but I want to get some feedback on whether this design works before i put more than a couple of hours work into it. -- Revolutions do not require corporate support. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mailserv2.iuinc.com (IDENT:qmailr@mailserv2.iuinc.com [206.245.164.55]) by puffin.external.hp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id IAA16947 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 08:11:38 -0700 Received: from unknown (HELO smtp.linuxcare.com) (216.88.157.131) by mailserv2.iuinc.com with SMTP; 15 Jan 2001 15:15:07 -0000 Received: from ottawa.linuxcare.com (HELO linuxcare.com) (@216.208.98.2) by smtp.linuxcare.com with SMTP; 15 Jan 2001 15:15:09 -0000 Sender: jvinet@mailserv2.iuinc.com Message-ID: <3A631530.29D686AD@linuxcare.com> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 10:20:16 -0500 From: Jane Vinet MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Matthew Wilcox CC: parisc-linux@thepuffingroup.com Subject: Re: [parisc-linux] website References: <20010106122621.C14922@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii List-ID: Hi Willy, Sorry, I thought I had sent this early last week, however, I had it in my drafts folder, I was not being unresponsive. Matthew Wilcox wrote: > > As I've mentioned before, I'm not happy with several aspects of the > proposed replacement website. > > * I believe there is too much boilerplate HTML which will quickly get out > of sync between the different files. Discussions between Linuxcare and Hewlett Packard have come to the conclusion that HP are satisfied with the site and we are going to post it the way it is now. Please note that it will not stay static. We believe the site will evolve over time and some of the issues you have brought up may be addressed in future developments. As to your other comments, please see below. > * The proposed site doesn't have the useful `last updated' feature. You are right, the previous "last updated" showed the last chron job - we will modify to show last time it was checked out of CVS. > * The text is too small. > * It uses too many tables. I feel these are personal preferences - however, I will see what can be done about the font > * The gives no useful information (also a problem with the > current site.) Absolutely correct, will address it with the web team > * Too many directories containing only one file. The site was designed with the idea of growth in mind, in fact we looked at the site map extensively before asking for an overhaul and we feel that it is no more complicated than in the past and looks to the future as well. > * It now requires perl to build. The system uses perl as a preprocessor - we do not believe that there are going to be any issues with this. Jane -- Jane Vinet, Director Professional Services/Canadian Operations Linuxcare, Inc. 613.562.9260 (tel), 613.562.9700 fax jvinet@linuxcare.com, http://www.linuxcare.com/ Linuxcare, Support for the Revolution From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mailserv2.iuinc.com (IDENT:qmailr@mailserv2.iuinc.com [206.245.164.55]) by puffin.external.hp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id MAA21360 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 12:29:51 -0700 From: Stan Sieler Message-Id: <200101151933.LAA19576@opus.allegro.com> Subject: Re: [parisc-linux] website To: jvinet@linuxcare.com (Jane Vinet) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 11:33:28 -0800 (PST) Cc: matthew@wil.cx (Matthew Wilcox), parisc-linux@thepuffingroup.com In-Reply-To: <3A631530.29D686AD@linuxcare.com> from "Jane Vinet" at Jan 15, 2001 10:20:16 AM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii List-ID: Re: > > * The text is too small. > > * It uses too many tables. > > I feel these are personal preferences - however, I will see what can be > done about the font The key, probably the most important thing in web page design, is to *NOT* override the user's font defaults. Web pages with font sizes, colors, & styles are simply evil. There are pages I can no longer read with Netscape, because the @#$%^ web designer went out of their way to choose a small font...and that's *real* small on a 1600x1200 display! MSIE let's me go to Tools/Internet Options/Accessibility and say: ignore font colors on page ignore font size on page ...which is simply wonderful. www.hp.com is an excellent example of how *NOT* to design a web page, sadly. Remember, the three most important things to consider when designing a web page are: content, content, and content. Look / feel / wow isn't in the top three! -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.sieler.com From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mailserv2.iuinc.com (IDENT:qmailr@mailserv2.iuinc.com [206.245.164.55]) by puffin.external.hp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA25200 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 15:21:06 -0700 Received: from parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk (HELO www.linux.org.uk) (195.92.249.252) by mailserv2.iuinc.com with SMTP; 15 Jan 2001 22:24:47 -0000 Received: from willy by www.linux.org.uk with local (Exim 3.13 #1) id 14II3D-0007dY-00; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 22:24:31 +0000 Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 22:24:31 +0000 From: Matthew Wilcox To: Stan Sieler Cc: Jane Vinet , Matthew Wilcox , parisc-linux@thepuffingroup.com Subject: Re: [parisc-linux] website Message-ID: <20010115222431.C28689@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk> References: <3A631530.29D686AD@linuxcare.com> <200101151933.LAA19576@opus.allegro.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <200101151933.LAA19576@opus.allegro.com>; from sieler@allegro.com on Mon, Jan 15, 2001 at 11:33:28AM -0800 Sender: List-ID: On Mon, Jan 15, 2001 at 11:33:28AM -0800, Stan Sieler wrote: > The key, probably the most important thing in web page design, is to > *NOT* override the user's font defaults. Web pages with font sizes, colors, & > styles are simply evil. There are pages I can no longer read with Netscape, > because the @#$%^ web designer went out of their way to choose a small > font...and that's *real* small on a 1600x1200 display! MSIE let's me > go to Tools/Internet Options/Accessibility and say: > > ignore font colors on page > ignore font size on page > > ...which is simply wonderful. Netscape has a simlar thing; however it ignore this preference when rendering tables. I went and checked out the mozilla classic codebase once and saw exactly how to fix it, but they'd already forked mozilla seamonkey at that point, so i didn't bother. > Remember, the three most important things to consider when > designing a web page are: content, content, and content. > Look / feel / wow isn't in the top three! i couldn't agree more. -- Revolutions do not require corporate support. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mailserv2.iuinc.com (IDENT:qmailr@mailserv2.iuinc.com [206.245.164.55]) by puffin.external.hp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA26098 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 15:47:26 -0700 Received: from parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk (HELO www.linux.org.uk) (195.92.249.252) by mailserv2.iuinc.com with SMTP; 15 Jan 2001 22:51:00 -0000 Received: from willy by www.linux.org.uk with local (Exim 3.13 #1) id 14IISh-0007us-00; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 22:50:51 +0000 Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 22:50:51 +0000 From: Matthew Wilcox To: Jane Vinet Cc: Matthew Wilcox , parisc-linux@thepuffingroup.com Subject: Re: [parisc-linux] website Message-ID: <20010115225051.F28689@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk> References: <20010106122621.C14922@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk> <3A631530.29D686AD@linuxcare.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <3A631530.29D686AD@linuxcare.com>; from jvinet@linuxcare.com on Mon, Jan 15, 2001 at 10:20:16AM -0500 Sender: List-ID: On Mon, Jan 15, 2001 at 10:20:16AM -0500, Jane Vinet wrote: > Discussions between Linuxcare and Hewlett Packard have come to the > conclusion that HP are satisfied with the site and we are going to post > it the way it is now. I see. In that case, I shall not be contributing further to the website in any way. I believe it is technically incompetent and deeply flawed. You gave the impression that problems would be fixed, but clearly this is not the case. I will not be fixing typos or incorrect information; I will not be updating the todo list or contributing faq entries. > > * The text is too small. > > * It uses too many tables. > > I feel these are personal preferences - however, I will see what can be > done about the font no they aren't. see the other post i made in this thread showing how the tables can be easily eliminated which will lead to less memory usage and faster rendering time. the font is not quite as unreadably small as some sites, but it's unnecessarily small. -- Revolutions do not require corporate support. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mailserv2.iuinc.com (IDENT:qmailr@mailserv2.iuinc.com [206.245.164.55]) by puffin.external.hp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id PAA26518 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 15:58:32 -0700 Received: from dualcel400 ([141.140.106.33]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with SMTP id <01JYXZBL5P84001K5W@macalester.edu> for parisc-linux@thepuffingroup.com; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 17:02:09 CDT Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 17:00:43 -0600 From: Josiah Carlson Subject: Re: [parisc-linux] website In-reply-to: <20010115222431.C28689@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk> To: parisc-linux@thepuffingroup.com Cc: parisc-linux@thepuffingroup.com Message-id: <3A63811B3D8.D2B3JCARLSON@smtp.macalester.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII References: <200101151933.LAA19576@opus.allegro.com> <20010115222431.C28689@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk> List-ID: > > Remember, the three most important things to consider when > > designing a web page are: content, content, and content. > > Look / feel / wow isn't in the top three! > > i couldn't agree more. So you've got a problem with the content? I don't understand what the problem is. The page works. So it's generated by a script that adds in a bunch of extra stuff...so what? The font sizes and such are not changed (except in the toolbar)...should be able to be viewed on netscape (and at least in the later mozilla's and NS6, you can override the defaults). Sounds like alot of complaining for nothing. As well, if you're not happy with the content on the web page, write a page up and post it for the good of the rest of us. --- Josiah Carlson jcarlson@macalester.edu From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mailserv2.iuinc.com (IDENT:qmailr@mailserv2.iuinc.com [206.245.164.55]) by puffin.external.hp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id QAA27141 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 16:06:37 -0700 Received: from parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk (HELO www.linux.org.uk) (195.92.249.252) by mailserv2.iuinc.com with SMTP; 15 Jan 2001 23:10:12 -0000 Received: from willy by www.linux.org.uk with local (Exim 3.13 #1) id 14IIlE-00088y-00; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:10:00 +0000 Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:10:00 +0000 From: Matthew Wilcox To: Josiah Carlson Cc: parisc-linux@thepuffingroup.com Subject: Re: [parisc-linux] website Message-ID: <20010115231000.J28689@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk> References: <200101151933.LAA19576@opus.allegro.com> <20010115222431.C28689@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk> <3A63811B3D8.D2B3JCARLSON@smtp.macalester.edu> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: <3A63811B3D8.D2B3JCARLSON@smtp.macalester.edu>; from jcarlson@macalester.edu on Mon, Jan 15, 2001 at 05:00:43PM -0600 Sender: List-ID: On Mon, Jan 15, 2001 at 05:00:43PM -0600, Josiah Carlson wrote: > I don't understand what the problem is. The page works. haven't you been reading my posts where i describe the problems with the build system which are going to lead to the pages getting out of sync? Heck, they have _already_ gt out of sync. > So it's generated by a script that adds in a bunch of extra stuff...so > what? The font sizes and such are not changed yes they are. go and look again. > As well, if you're not happy with the content on the web page, write a > page up and post it for the good of the rest of us. er. i have. really, have you not been paying attention? -- Revolutions do not require corporate support. From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mailserv2.iuinc.com (IDENT:qmailr@mailserv2.iuinc.com [206.245.164.55]) by puffin.external.hp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id RAA29154 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 17:45:12 -0700 From: Stan Sieler Message-Id: <200101160048.QAA24057@opus.allegro.com> Subject: Re: [parisc-linux] website To: jcarlson@macalester.edu (Josiah Carlson) Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 16:48:51 -0800 (PST) Cc: parisc-linux@thepuffingroup.com In-Reply-To: <3A63811B3D8.D2B3JCARLSON@smtp.macalester.edu> from "Josiah Carlson" at Jan 15, 2001 05:00:43 PM MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii List-ID: Josiah (what's wrong with painting my car myself, with house paint) Carlson says: > what? The font sizes and such are not changed (except in the > toolbar)...should be able to be viewed on netscape (and at least in the Oh? Try www.sieler.com, then www.linuxcare.com. The linuxcare page specifies font size everywhere...not just the toolbar. Matthew did linuxcare a favor ... for all that they might not care ... by pointing out that the page has a number of problems. Font size *is* one of those problems. On my 21" monitor, at 1600x1200, I find their font just a bit too small to read. (Better than some brain-dead pages, like www.altavista.com!) > later mozilla's and NS6, you can override the defaults). Sounds like > alot of complaining for nothing. Josiah...if people don't point out the problems, how will they *ever* find out about them? Hmmm...The gentleman protests too much, methinks. [modified Hamlet, see http://www.allshakespeare.com/plays/hamlet/3-2.shtml#protest] BTW, you *DO* want to point out to your *own* site's webmaster that he/she is making the same bad mistake :) www.macalester.edu: ... Macalester College is a private undergraduate liberal arts college which emphasizes academic excellence in the context of internationalism, ... Note that evil "size=-1"! (and a few "size=-2" as well) BTW, that home page is better than many... CSEE HTML Validator version 4.5 only found four errors on it. See: http://www.htmlvalidator.com/ -- Stan Sieler sieler@allegro.com www.allegro.com/sieler/wanted/index.html www.sieler.com From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mailserv2.iuinc.com (IDENT:qmailr@mailserv2.iuinc.com [206.245.164.55]) by puffin.external.hp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id TAA30519 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 19:22:58 -0700 Received: from dualcel400 ([141.140.106.33]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with SMTP id <01JYY6H58QFS001U21@macalester.edu> for parisc-linux@thepuffingroup.com; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 20:26:40 CDT Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 20:25:15 -0600 From: Josiah Carlson Subject: Re: [parisc-linux] website In-reply-to: <20010115231000.J28689@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk> To: parisc-linux@thepuffingroup.com Message-id: <3A63B10BBB.D2B5JCARLSON@smtp.macalester.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII References: <3A63811B3D8.D2B3JCARLSON@smtp.macalester.edu> <20010115231000.J28689@parcelfarce.linux.theplanet.co.uk> List-ID: Matthew Wilxox, I've been trying to look at the issues you've brought up, and figure out some way that someone can fix them. Here are the problems that I've been able to come up with from the emails: 1. Font sizes and the resulting readibility on hi res screens, particlarly on netscape browsers. 2. Problem with the memory usage of the tables, and the rendering speed, particularly on netscape browsers. 3. Build system as it relates to the the way the pages are updated...causing them to get out of sync. 4. The fact that parisc-linux.org is overseen by the HP corporation, and that they are unwilling to change the layout and such of the web page. Problems 1 and 2 both seem to stem from the way the Netscape browser handles pages. Yes, the over-use of tables is not necessary and causes loading issues for people on saturated connections who also happen to be using netscape 4.x. And I also hate the over-use of tables (I once viewed a web page that had 4 images and maybe a paragraph or so of actual text, but was filled with 25k of table formatting crap that could have been removed with a
tag and a few line breaks). But they aren't embedding hundreds of tables within themselves, I looked at the html in your email. I agree, the three tables didn't need to be used, but then again, the designers of the pages probably aren't using a text editor to set up a web page, I wouldn't doubt if they are using some sort of gui editor...which in my experience with them, produces too much unneeded bullshit. I'm guessing with the amount of stuff they've got to set up, they lack the time to hand code everything...that is much of the same reason why so many pages have so many tables. Not everyone has the time to hand code every page, but then again, if some section of code is going to go into every web page, it should be tight. Though we've got to remember that we're dealing with a corporation, with a structure, with supervisors. If there's one thing that I've learned from working at any workplace, it's that supervisors sometimes know less than a 2 year old and sometimes are twice as stubborn. If they're using some sort of commercial web development tool, I would doubt if the supervisor cares who did what, "If it wasn't produced by the package, it's not going in." (quote from a supervisor I had, and this also being the response to problem 4). What really needs to happen to fix these pages, is not for you to leave because you're unhappy with the future pages, but for the person(s) who is(are) actually developing the pages to be able to be contacted, and take constructive feedback, and actually be able to do something about it (where's webmaster@parisc-linux.org?). We can fix the font sizes and such though. In the netscape preferences (on 4.x, 6, and mozilla) have options for font size and style overrides (Edit->Preferences->Appearance->Fonts). This is a personal thing, a seriously personal thing, but easily fixed on all current browsers (IE 4.0+, NS4.5+, 6 and mozilla (don't know the original milestone this started working on, but I've got 11, 13 and 17 if anyone wants to look). Memory usage because of tables...I really can't help that, and unless someone breaks into the mozilla source code and tightens it up a tad...I don't think it's ever going to be efficient (though I can't notice a difference in IE...but then again, IE never had the problems with tables that NS 4.x had), though at least mozilla/6 renders as it receives information, quite a step up from the 4.x releases. Build system and page updates...ouch. Yeah, that's a problem, though I don't have a solution. *frown* In response to your previous email: No, I haven't read them, I must've missed them. But yes, it is a problem...but I was attempting to refer to the parts that non-developers see, the faq, the start page, etc. Though I can't change the build system, not only am I not privy to the code, but I doubt that HP would accept any changes if I had any. (more on that later) The content comment...I actually went surfing around the page and noticed your name here and there...funny, I never paid it attention before. My comment was to address everyone. Let us say for example that...I've got a C110 (which I happen to), and I've been having problems getting it working (which I have, but the current comments on the C100 are helping). Currently there is not a whole lot of info on getting said machines running on the main site. If I ever get my C110 running (like the 712's and B160L's), I have to document the steps required because someone in the future may have to do it again where I'm at, and it could also be posted to the parisc-linux.org site for other people. Using that as an example, anyone who'se had problems getting things set up should document and get the solutions posted to the site under the information for that particular machine. Thank you for posting, anything that people can add to help is all that much better for the new guy (which I still am). (in response to Stan Stieler) And about "my site's webmaster"...well, that's not my site. It's my school's site, for I am merely an undergrad. I do know that they use Dreamweaver to write the pages, which gives a reason for the use of CSS, and over-use of tables on every page that is school written. But that's their thing, and it's also a corporation of sorts. I know the guys who are doing work study making the pages...and they would all prefer to do everything with a few scripts and some hand-coded html...but the supervisors only know dreamweaver...so that's all they get. I looked at stieler.com and have been to hp.com quite often, and while I agree that content should be the absolute desire, content with a poor way of accessing said content is nearly as bad as not having any. Hp's site has alot of useful information...but I've spent hours looking for what I need (same with intel's site). Your site doesn't have any ambiguity, but it also does not have the insane amounts of information that the HP site has, nor is it nearly as visually interesting0. I'm going to use slashdot.org as an example here. It has plenty of information, fairly un-ambiguous interface, kind of visually interesting, but also happens to have many tables. Tables aren't necessarily bad when used properly (not to say that slashdot.org uses them properly, but they are used for the desired formatting, and not much else would accomplish what they have). The trick is to remember to seperate the different levels of web design in a corporate style environment: Content (what's there) Interface (how do they get to it) Back end (how it's stored/generated) As a geek news source, slashdot.org has got them all down pretty well, leaving only a little to be desired in the way of the amount of html they use (and a bit of FUD on occasion). hp.com lacks interface, but has excellent content and one hell of a back end to be able to handle all that info. So yeah, that's my take, - Josiah From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mailserv2.iuinc.com (IDENT:qmailr@mailserv2.iuinc.com [206.245.164.55]) by puffin.external.hp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id VAA05784 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 21:57:00 -0700 Message-Id: <200101160501.VAA11005@milano.cup.hp.com> To: Josiah Carlson Cc: parisc-linux@thepuffingroup.com Subject: Re: [parisc-linux] website In-reply-to: Your message of "Mon, 15 Jan 2001 20:25:15 PST." <3A63B10BBB.D2B5JCARLSON@smtp.macalester.edu> Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2001 21:01:06 -0800 From: Grant Grundler List-ID: Josiah Carlson wrote: ... > 4. The fact that parisc-linux.org is overseen by the HP corporation, and > that they are unwilling to change the layout and such of the web page. Wrong on two counts: HP does not run the web site. AFAIK, HP helped fund the parisc-linux site developement and approved it's current layout/use of HP logo. No one said anything about future developement. This issue is still under discussion and Mathew's input has been heard. > Though we've got to remember > that we're dealing with a corporation, with a structure, with > supervisors. Who are just people. Some need to learn new things they don't yet know. > If there's one thing that I've learned from working at any > workplace, it's that supervisors sometimes know less than a 2 year old > and sometimes are twice as stubborn. Funny. None of my supervisors have ever fit that description. Maybe I'm just lucky. > not only am I not privy to the code, Wrong again. Source is visible at http://puffin.external.hp.com/cgi-bin/cvsview or through CVS. Just like the linux kernel. > but I doubt that HP would > accept any changes if I had any. (more on that later) You are right - HP won't. Mostly because HP doesn't "own" it. Anyone with write access to the CVS repository can change it. Only about 1/5th of the people with such write access are HP employees. > Currently there is not a whole lot of info on > getting said machines running on the main site. 1) It's because owners of said machines haven't *written* a web page (or FAQ) specific to each platform. 2) Such a page would fairly quickly be stale. The long term goal is to have one process/kernel for all machines. (64- vs 32-bit kernels is the only issue that won't go away.) > I have to document the steps > required because someone in the future may have to do it again where I'm > at, and it could also be posted to the parisc-linux.org site for other > people. Exactly. Post it here and people can find it by searching the mail archive. (That's probably another FAQ, Alex?). grant Grant Grundler Unix Systems Enablement Lab +1.408.447.7253 From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mailserv2.iuinc.com (IDENT:qmailr@mailserv2.iuinc.com [206.245.164.55]) by puffin.external.hp.com (8.9.3/8.9.3) with SMTP id XAA26862 for ; Mon, 15 Jan 2001 23:25:55 -0700 Received: from dualcel400 ([141.140.106.33]) by macalester.edu (PMDF V5.2-32 #38670) with SMTP id <01JYYEYC8W48001V3H@macalester.edu> for parisc-linux@thepuffingroup.com; Tue, 16 Jan 2001 00:29:36 CDT Date: Tue, 16 Jan 2001 00:28:10 -0600 From: Josiah Carlson Subject: Re: [parisc-linux] website In-reply-to: <200101160501.VAA11005@milano.cup.hp.com> To: Grant Grundler , Stan Sieler , parisc-linux@thepuffingroup.com Message-id: <3A63E9FA2CE.D2B6JCARLSON@smtp.macalester.edu> MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII References: <3A63B10BBB.D2B5JCARLSON@smtp.macalester.edu> <200101160501.VAA11005@milano.cup.hp.com> List-ID: > Wrong on two counts: HP does not run the web site. AFAIK, HP helped > fund the parisc-linux site developement and approved it's current > layout/use of HP logo. No one said anything about future developement. > This issue is still under discussion and Mathew's input has been heard. I did not know that. Thank you for putting me straight. > Who are just people. > Some need to learn new things they don't yet know. > Funny. None of my supervisors have ever fit that description. > Maybe I'm just lucky. *nod* They need to learn, but some aren't willing. I don't know the structure at HP, but most any job I've been at...yeah, had a couple good ones, but those are rare, and you are quite lucky. Though with the newfound knowledge that it's not overseen by a large corporation, let us get with the page alterations already *wink*. > Wrong again. > Source is visible at http://puffin.external.hp.com/cgi-bin/cvsview > or through CVS. Just like the linux kernel. > You are right - HP won't. Mostly because HP doesn't "own" it. > Anyone with write access to the CVS repository can change it. > Only about 1/5th of the people with such write access are HP > employees. I must have missed that link as well. I did not know that just about everything (web page included) were easily modifyable...but if it's so easy, why haven't the changes been made? Why is Matthew so pissed off? (I admit that I flamed in response, and I'm sorry...at the time I was pissed because I didn't have lab access to my hp machines because of the holiday. Since then I've had my nap and dinner.) > 1) It's because owners of said machines haven't *written* a web page > (or FAQ) specific to each platform. > 2) Such a page would fairly quickly be stale. > The long term goal is to have one process/kernel for all machines. > (64- vs 32-bit kernels is the only issue that won't go away.) MMM. Good point, until that happens however...I'm of the belief that anyone that has problems getting things working should document what they did to get their machine working (if they ever did). Regardless of how out of date it is...you never know how helpful it could be. For example...the install directions should include the serial console tidbit. Everyone here knows about it...but not everyone does when they go to first boot off the image (as I did, and subsequently emailed Paul Bame). But regardless of the state of the port...sometimes software just doesn't like to run on multiple platforms (any *nix distro on a Sony vaio will have problems with the multimedia stuff built into them...because of the machine...like those particular HP servers that just don't work). It's good to have documentation. It's part of what seperates good software from bad. > Exactly. Post it here and people can find it by searching the > mail archive. (That's probably another FAQ, Alex?). When I get done, I most certainly will. > not really...let's say you've got your system and/or Netscape (and/or > MSIE) default fonts the size that you'd like (for readability). > Along comes a page that says: hey...I don't care what your default is, > I want "size=-1" or "size=-2" ... i.e., "I want a font smaller than > you like". *nod* Hrm...that's messed up. I've never done such a thing. I've always done the size=+1 to indicate bold (because bold just isn't enough sometimes)...but to make the stuff smaller...that's just plain bad design (unless you want some fine print at the bottom, then it's just plain bad mojo). If people can't see what you want them to, what good is it. Though I mistakenly thought that the overrides overrides _all_ font settings in the page. For it not to, when you specifically tell it to...I don't know, maybe another setting for relative font sizing in the browsers is in order. >Me too...particularly the bad way HP uses them...they violate the HTML >standard, and the result is (often) that Netscape renders them okay, >but refuses to search for text in them (if you do control-F). *nod* Java generated pages do that to me on occasion to. >You're missing something...the pages that Matthew (and others) have >complained about are going out of their way to say: > hey, we know better than the owner of the computer what font sizes > are readable on his/her PC! I was missing that yes. What should really happen then is that sites stop doing that...but until they do...maybe what some people need is a web site post-processor proxy that gets rid of the size=-* tags. >I only used that as an example of a page that doesn't try to control >the font size, so you could do a quick A/B comparison. >BTW, that was a nice posting you did, thanks! With the previous 3 or 4 responses above...yeah, I got that now. Originally I thought you were trying to tout your 31337 html coding abilities...then I got there, and noticed the white *wink*. I used to go to a site called Silicon Toad's BBS (back in 94, mosaic was the shit), and he hand coded everything. That was an impressive site in the 2.x days when the lucky people had 19.2. Pretty and less than 10k. *nastalga mode off* And, um, you're welcome? - Josiah