From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from mgamail.intel.com (mgamail.intel.com [198.175.65.13]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384 (256/256 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by smtp.subspace.kernel.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B095815AACF; Wed, 10 Apr 2024 11:48:08 +0000 (UTC) Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; arc=fail smtp.client-ip=198.175.65.13 ARC-Seal:i=2; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1712749691; cv=fail; b=DBDggG3KByDiXeGC+SAp52jobiIW1hCFi6e+dd5NbvlwOxsTTHQ45qg6y0Jvkf6+H09Upkq31NwUltvqDvpalWn8BT8FHogakb2jeIaWgrfL7N6gLm3Eos/YtJV5663meQyQZQ3ot/4OCHSek7ynDTDLcMRgFu6fv+CiDuBXz8A= ARC-Message-Signature:i=2; a=rsa-sha256; d=subspace.kernel.org; s=arc-20240116; t=1712749691; c=relaxed/simple; bh=R3D678VAx4yaziqzcLcDSGqF6Q4a3oMj5oJYC1yjCpQ=; h=Message-ID:Date:Subject:To:CC:References:From:In-Reply-To: Content-Type:MIME-Version; b=cOpEsnpeX0LcH+hcxF0V+eP/eQEsSsl3j1m05mbJzocgQrQTmJO1PPPf0qsJdZm7sYtyzfAm7okCf7vwiYV4z23gQ4g1fVb3LlDAfrm50Jzvbz4AaSpR47ZCvOOYNkC0gqo/paDFcKrIj7nfJm0MZbIsAbIe3SMAEsUSgfWJJs0= ARC-Authentication-Results:i=2; smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=intel.com; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=intel.com; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=intel.com header.i=@intel.com header.b=e003a1HV; arc=fail smtp.client-ip=198.175.65.13 Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dmarc=pass (p=none dis=none) header.from=intel.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=intel.com Authentication-Results: smtp.subspace.kernel.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=intel.com header.i=@intel.com header.b="e003a1HV" DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=intel.com; i=@intel.com; q=dns/txt; s=Intel; t=1712749689; x=1744285689; h=message-id:date:subject:to:cc:references:from: in-reply-to:content-transfer-encoding:mime-version; bh=R3D678VAx4yaziqzcLcDSGqF6Q4a3oMj5oJYC1yjCpQ=; b=e003a1HV89WGSJdf40A828Un0qGhNEwvZi2Loh39xC6u1yvlpeCNqmV8 lrVL3sMK7KrsMLAECYTqX6bhsREGWFU64Y+ipU4LY/hPe/1Bl6iFGUg+A AZbWj4lrZuDc9zVl7a3SY1Uk6K0j5pXXVv5Ca2g3/543UQgUCMrTqS3dC mZiNd8wdKNrgnFLr7xUZu/sKJLceSPtUF4+8VcwdKc350/QBb2XrwR3Z3 zXMIIdB2AaEX8blbD6hLHGH1W0sTHP2bl5Qzc2jKTojZwnZJRHmOQQMXM 4zt/KlaovMsskwvDSNlsDDa1OZCH5WCEP6fzeZuvnHGwtlJ4tXUm9w8nv Q==; X-CSE-ConnectionGUID: 8jsjQk93RMCLIdHdgudnlQ== X-CSE-MsgGUID: JAtFHhVLR3isNER9e4Z/jQ== X-IronPort-AV: E=McAfee;i="6600,9927,11039"; a="19254280" X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="6.07,190,1708416000"; d="scan'208";a="19254280" Received: from fmviesa010.fm.intel.com ([10.60.135.150]) by orvoesa105.jf.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/ECDHE-RSA-AES256-GCM-SHA384; 10 Apr 2024 04:48:08 -0700 X-CSE-ConnectionGUID: Pi3RdlqCRtqMwF7+IZOcyw== X-CSE-MsgGUID: fHFGc3t2Sn6qmsEbsOR9Cg== X-ExtLoop1: 1 X-IronPort-AV: E=Sophos;i="6.07,190,1708416000"; d="scan'208";a="20507588" Received: from orsmsx602.amr.corp.intel.com ([10.22.229.15]) by fmviesa010.fm.intel.com with ESMTP/TLS/AES256-GCM-SHA384; 10 Apr 2024 04:48:07 -0700 Received: from orsmsx610.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.229.23) by ORSMSX602.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.229.15) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2507.35; Wed, 10 Apr 2024 04:48:06 -0700 Received: from orsedg603.ED.cps.intel.com (10.7.248.4) by orsmsx610.amr.corp.intel.com (10.22.229.23) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256) id 15.1.2507.35 via Frontend Transport; Wed, 10 Apr 2024 04:48:06 -0700 Received: from NAM10-DM6-obe.outbound.protection.outlook.com (104.47.58.101) by edgegateway.intel.com (134.134.137.100) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.1.2507.35; Wed, 10 Apr 2024 04:48:06 -0700 ARC-Seal: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; s=arcselector9901; d=microsoft.com; cv=none; b=MOjMzqThrBobEy+hFDFBbWV1yQewS0wXC+ZwTsNcdctpdvEmqfSfUL4G+Hm+aLFCTIqSCUVMb1c+qpLTuOCOhSQf93+xa8gFuY35dukTaGj+K55DnLxHsGT5LwjlD8xreYz2BWqezgOH5SMDo9yMVAGmprUArZQt56Mc9WI5Kq3d/IINspmi8MoWuMGCAn7GK8NGx0e187kDSSfuyQ4yMCbkR+HzkMqgEIZBCIEnJHEukY8qWSwRmslFv7q7zzZnyekO9gZCPgAEBFqTLLnmoOy5SibLu5s3tLTwmM8iTiUAlWBRF23zBDUNw06uzTeQXBry/yW+cvDlVIMmK2fCkw== ARC-Message-Signature: i=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=microsoft.com; s=arcselector9901; h=From:Date:Subject:Message-ID:Content-Type:MIME-Version:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0:X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-1; bh=kzXSdrl3VPEur4zmr6jjOxQnkWifRzwRi6K0KVM+4jY=; b=RUU9xLl4fulR1JMcinkCDTx5mkhcLBVRBHUvmh8IrrdGoX43kaSOtigWE0HhYl7e3LhN/bivq+Cz6uW3p69Ick/IVCXYlprQ2hhct5979CWFsm+tFqXmsh/xDkHSyJ5yIp7ChlHUnEyrAl095R+zCHFQxDsRG9Nb+2lng8B2pQl3spvHzqewHJMmcMhPzd/xdugS7kPBRg+2HuPlngA75E7Od7gJQHuGawaFeeQXmeo9U4PEec7LlJeHrhso6dncZKb+B8EoZtCURl/7mVLA9b0VyNEzNtycz3ojcPZXuzGMxeRXXvdGzCkkIAaWVCibwZQ2en8dkPTMTtU9Z4TgrA== ARC-Authentication-Results: i=1; mx.microsoft.com 1; spf=pass smtp.mailfrom=intel.com; dmarc=pass action=none header.from=intel.com; dkim=pass header.d=intel.com; arc=none Received: from DS0PR11MB8718.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:8:1b9::20) by PH7PR11MB6053.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:510:1d1::8) with Microsoft SMTP Server (version=TLS1_2, cipher=TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_256_GCM_SHA384) id 15.20.7452.25; Wed, 10 Apr 2024 11:48:02 +0000 Received: from DS0PR11MB8718.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::654c:d66a:ec8e:45e9]) by DS0PR11MB8718.namprd11.prod.outlook.com ([fe80::654c:d66a:ec8e:45e9%6]) with mapi id 15.20.7452.019; Wed, 10 Apr 2024 11:48:02 +0000 Message-ID: <043179b5-d499-41cc-8d99-3f15b72a27cc@intel.com> Date: Wed, 10 Apr 2024 13:45:54 +0200 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [net-next PATCH 00/15] eth: fbnic: Add network driver for Meta Platforms Host Network Interface To: Jiri Pirko CC: John Fastabend , Alexander Duyck , Jason Gunthorpe , Paolo Abeni , Jakub Kicinski , , , , Alexander Duyck , , "Christoph Hellwig" References: <20240405122646.GA166551@nvidia.com> <20240405151703.GF5383@nvidia.com> <66142a4b402d5_2cb7208ec@john.notmuch> <9dd78c52-868e-4955-aba2-36bbaf3e0d88@intel.com> From: Alexander Lobakin Content-Language: en-US In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-ClientProxiedBy: FR0P281CA0151.DEUP281.PROD.OUTLOOK.COM (2603:10a6:d10:b3::19) To DS0PR11MB8718.namprd11.prod.outlook.com (2603:10b6:8:1b9::20) Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-pci@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 X-MS-PublicTrafficType: Email X-MS-TrafficTypeDiagnostic: DS0PR11MB8718:EE_|PH7PR11MB6053:EE_ X-MS-Exchange-SenderADCheck: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-Relay: 0 X-Microsoft-Antispam: BCL:0; X-Microsoft-Antispam-Message-Info: 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 X-Forefront-Antispam-Report: CIP:255.255.255.255;CTRY:;LANG:en;SCL:1;SRV:;IPV:NLI;SFV:NSPM;H:DS0PR11MB8718.namprd11.prod.outlook.com;PTR:;CAT:NONE;SFS:(13230031)(366007)(1800799015)(376005)(7416005);DIR:OUT;SFP:1102; X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-ChunkCount: 1 X-MS-Exchange-AntiSpam-MessageData-0: =?utf-8?B?TWdNWnhuNDhwbEY0WXRlaEowWUIyMFQ1L25JSmN4aEJyZklFS2t4REw1WkYr?= =?utf-8?B?MFZQdlBRWktacHpaS3d3bFcvSGR1VndwZzNUalhOUzBWcGZuQ0F0T3A4RkNM?= =?utf-8?B?WUFrTHEyN2xsZk1iKzZzbWVFZklZdmdPbmNhNzlJcy8xWEhzdTB0MHRsY2Fl?= =?utf-8?B?STZtbTgrbkoxNkJlcTFHR0xJUVU2UU5xK2c2ZHRjV203YzhKYkFVT3RjWERs?= =?utf-8?B?RHlWNmhQN0xHVkZpbHozTHkwRUIvTEVsWVIra0xDVXg1aFFpT0hlcnlCY1Ny?= =?utf-8?B?RFNUUnQvc2RKVVB0OE02eUcvRFFRMjViMHlENTZHd0xCcHRLVnhLd1hWOHA2?= =?utf-8?B?L2ZGeFJxajRTSUc4OGhvZ3Q1S25qS0lab1QyMG9iaTd1RmpORGJyOW9xeW9F?= =?utf-8?B?c1kvU0Z0b0lpNjE4emtERWYwbGdzV3BBQ2N3cW43bzlUelZwN1IyUUNTTkYx?= =?utf-8?B?OUFpY1ZGZTcrcXRuaFlKZHBJNEcrbFJoZVg4SVlBbCtPbjdzK0ZJUXl5YmV6?= =?utf-8?B?bHhydW9nclRVYXprVTVIeFRNTmxpcnBzY0haRFgyeGtrUXhLdDBVcGNrTU9R?= =?utf-8?B?bVJVVTBIbWZSbWtkUFpZZGRMb0lqcWZOdU0vYUVyd1BSZ09NTFJCcGhTWDRD?= =?utf-8?B?YlhRQzR0eUoxREZyV3FJcmpneldTYXRqQ0Nnd05laUYzUkE1L0RRM2s5bnBt?= =?utf-8?B?dUdEWmt0SmpZdGY3KzVabkFld0YyY01NclFCSUJhampSbE00amVRZnpxL3ZP?= =?utf-8?B?WjBhcHhmK294UmpzcVcrL1AzZWZYZmhCNlFQVHZSY2FGaVRNNTloTG5vTzJQ?= =?utf-8?B?MlJyV1JXMjlTOUplbWROekpFcFdETjJ4eTI2SjVYWFYyOEpVQVk3aHFSL3Bl?= =?utf-8?B?ZmliR1pBUnV1MWtJTEFGZjdSZ3ZyVzdCbHptNDN5MDlmVGtXYUxqUEpQVk9N?= =?utf-8?B?Tys2azlWQldQRUJYbHJyazRweENBdXBPbG1nOHBZWGN5UHl4Q283d01kQndX?= =?utf-8?B?WXdZU0c3UzJRWUswd09hN3dya21BSG1PUkN4T0Z4QXZ4RjhsSzk2MFdJejds?= =?utf-8?B?RWRyZzlSL0tvTUIxYldMNVFJUXZjNFJ3NzU3dGFtWlJqRFpNRVQxZEVDRHFD?= =?utf-8?B?akVNMFRIRXJYanNYY25GQlg3blg4YTBySHFWV1BlQWVXWnJGN2hreHpycS95?= =?utf-8?B?cjNxY0RjMVZqQVlId0FYa1JzYVRuZTV0VldsUDJzelRZZlIrSkxDLzRJbVpr?= =?utf-8?B?OXpWK2RyZXM2QzNGM1VyVTNkZGlKK05jQ1hQMkpXbWI0SkNNNy90by8wK0kv?= =?utf-8?B?SU1laXNFcnhzeEpMVzc5M1FWdzFzcVdKc2JkSExlczByRkxpYkdoRXh4blVx?= =?utf-8?B?V0g3UlRybk1XemhIQjl5UWpXUW8yQmdiODRDV0lZNTJTZktwSU5ZTTQrTU4z?= =?utf-8?B?OHBiTGpsK09vKzhxMkxpbUtZQjJ6K2xVUk8xcmgzZGk0QzBTZUxkSitkUVhs?= =?utf-8?B?YU5XZ3NwY1UyYmtmRGttc2dtVytJeDFBYXVXanA5a0RIRitSbHVoU3Z3Y1Nh?= =?utf-8?B?UFRLb2ZYZGZNMTRBOVk0UWZlK3I4SmIxSVFiOU1nZktGTjVDOUl1bzh2ZGd6?= =?utf-8?B?MlBXV01EUStVUTZMNmMxTnJySjRmb3lsUGZieFdzczk3M1ZvWisyQi9UeEJV?= =?utf-8?B?Z1lYOHJZcUZPcytmcGJpc0JlUWdKTTFDTmtSREdxYVAxQ1F5QWIxZWlwbUU3?= =?utf-8?B?WVJraWJjWUtUcUY3QTZaVzZKb1g1YlNvOXJNaDJpVE1mbVd3MjdtMUgxb2xh?= =?utf-8?B?NFVMY2lPZ1hOTERLaXB6V1g4d2FCbmdIUnB6c09pS0FaRWVScmhnR2JnS0dS?= =?utf-8?B?M0ZBRnA2Rkc3ZDRUWHJpZ2tOYVVWdDlHRDJEQUJBNmprbnFHTjZ6NUVIdHJ0?= =?utf-8?B?cXgxTHNrTC9NVjlQUmlKM0dHWnl2L3lkR0NJRnh3WDBwVkFuQkF4WmI0NC9u?= =?utf-8?B?cVdhb0FJMmt6NStwYS8vM2U1QTh5b2hmR1M3aW9ncFdpeHp1Uk81azk0K2tR?= =?utf-8?B?UFZvZWxRbzkzYStHL2R5UjBqdU0yamJWTmxqWEdDYjI0cWVIck54NzRwTXFG?= =?utf-8?B?bk9XRElRUWthYmpkZU5hVnBKQ0NPNy91L21IQzhhNFdjak9iQ3IyMmEwbHcy?= =?utf-8?B?OGc9PQ==?= X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: e9aeed73-31ae-4fbd-4712-08dc595413e7 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: DS0PR11MB8718.namprd11.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-OriginalArrivalTime: 10 Apr 2024 11:48:02.7143 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-FromEntityHeader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Id: 46c98d88-e344-4ed4-8496-4ed7712e255d X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-MailboxType: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-UserPrincipalName: IOtaxyIqfSFopot4bq+w0daZnv/F3ZMF1E41/tWvSOh4eNudUdzRRvBOu9oximIiyqnaep7VGkZQICdu1bL9TjVEdxaZQ0OtJgAuTeuAoMI= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: PH7PR11MB6053 X-OriginatorOrg: intel.com From: Jiri Pirko Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 16:41:10 +0200 > Tue, Apr 09, 2024 at 03:11:21PM CEST, aleksander.lobakin@intel.com wrote: >> From: Jiri Pirko >> Date: Tue, 9 Apr 2024 13:01:51 +0200 >> >>> Mon, Apr 08, 2024 at 07:32:59PM CEST, john.fastabend@gmail.com wrote: >>>> Jiri Pirko wrote: >>>>> Mon, Apr 08, 2024 at 05:46:35PM CEST, alexander.duyck@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>> On Mon, Apr 8, 2024 at 4:51 AM Jiri Pirko wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Fri, Apr 05, 2024 at 08:38:25PM CEST, alexander.duyck@gmail.com wrote: >>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 5, 2024 at 8:17 AM Jason Gunthorpe wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Fri, Apr 05, 2024 at 07:24:32AM -0700, Alexander Duyck wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> Alex already indicated new features are coming, changes to the core >>>>>>>>>>> code will be proposed. How should those be evaluated? Hypothetically >>>>>>>>>>> should fbnic be allowed to be the first implementation of something >>>>>>>>>>> invasive like Mina's DMABUF work? Google published an open userspace >>>>>>>>>>> for NCCL that people can (in theory at least) actually run. Meta would >>>>>>>>>>> not be able to do that. I would say that clearly crosses the line and >>>>>>>>>>> should not be accepted. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Why not? Just because we are not commercially selling it doesn't mean >>>>>>>>>> we couldn't look at other solutions such as QEMU. If we were to >>>>>>>>>> provide a github repo with an emulation of the NIC would that be >>>>>>>>>> enough to satisfy the "commercial" requirement? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> My test is not "commercial", it is enabling open source ecosystem vs >>>>>>>>> benefiting only proprietary software. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sorry, that was where this started where Jiri was stating that we had >>>>>>>> to be selling this. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> For the record, I never wrote that. Not sure why you repeat this over >>>>>>> this thread. >>>>>> >>>>>> Because you seem to be implying that the Meta NIC driver shouldn't be >>>>>> included simply since it isn't going to be available outside of Meta. >> >> BTW idpf is also not something you can go and buy in a store, but it's >> here in the kernel. Anyway, see below. > > IDK, why so many people in this thread are so focused on "buying" nic. > IDPF device is something I assume one may see on a VM hosted in some > cloud, isn't it? If yes, it is completely legit to have it in. Do I miss > something? Anyhow, we want the upstream Linux kernel to work out of box on most systems. Rejecting this driver basically encourages to still prefer OOT/proprietary crap. > > >> >>>>>> The fact is Meta employs a number of kernel developers and as a result >>>>>> of that there will be a number of kernel developers that will have >>>>>> access to this NIC and likely do development on systems containing it. >> >> [...] >> >>>> Vendors would happily spin up a NIC if a DC with scale like this >>>> would pay for it. They just don't advertise it in patch 0/X, >>>> "adding device for cloud provider foo". >>>> >>>> There is no difference here. We gain developers, we gain insights, >>>> learnings and Linux and OSS drivers are running on another big >>>> DC. They improve things and find bugs they upstream them its a win. >>>> >>>> The opposite is also true if we exclude a driver/NIC HW that is >>>> running on major DCs we lose a lot of insight, experience, value. >>> >>> Could you please describe in details and examples what exactly is we >>> are about to loose? I don't see it. >> >> As long as driver A introduces new features / improvements / API / >> whatever to the core kernel, we benefit from this no matter whether I'm >> actually able to run this driver on my system. >> >> Some drivers even give us benefit by that they are of good quality (I >> don't speak for this driver, just some hypothetical) and/or have >> interesting design / code / API / etc. choices. The drivers I work on >> did gain a lot just from that I was reading new commits / lore threads >> and look at changes in other drivers. >> >> I saw enough situations when driver A started using/doing something the >> way it wasn't ever done anywhere before, and then more and more drivers >> stated doing the same thing and at the end it became sorta standard. > > So bottom line is, the unused driver *may* introduce some features and > *may* provide as an example of how to do things for other people. > Is this really that beneficial for the community that it overweights > the obvious cons (not going to repeat them)? > > Like with any other patch/set we merge in, we always look at the cons > and pros. I'm honestly surprised that so many people here > want to make exception for Meta's internal toy project. It's not me who wants to make an exception. I haven't ever seen a driver rejected due to "it can be used only somewhere where I can't go", so looks like it's you who wants to make an exception :> Thanks, Olek