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Fri, 24 Jul 2026 13:35:29 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <0ccda05f-077c-4661-b852-e6bf9bf40be3@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2026 16:35:13 -0400 Precedence: bulk X-Mailing-List: linux-perf-users@vger.kernel.org List-Id: List-Subscribe: List-Unsubscribe: MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [PATCH 2/3] AF_ALG: Drop support for off-CPU cryptography To: Dominique Martinet , Eric Biggers Cc: Harald Freudenberger , acme@kernel.org, adrian.hunter@intel.com, alexander.shishkin@linux.intel.com, ardb@kernel.org, axboe@kernel.dk, corbet@lwn.net, davem@davemloft.net, edumazet@google.com, herbert@gondor.apana.org.au, horms@kernel.org, io-uring@vger.kernel.org, irogers@google.com, james.clark@linaro.org, jolsa@kernel.org, kuba@kernel.org, kuniyu@google.com, linux-crypto@vger.kernel.org, linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-perf-users@vger.kernel.org, mark.rutland@arm.com, mingo@redhat.com, namhyung@kernel.org, netdev@vger.kernel.org, pabeni@redhat.com, peterz@infradead.org, skhan@linuxfoundation.org, willemb@google.com, linux-s390@vger.kernel.org References: <20260523-af-alg-harden-v1-2-c76755c3a5c5@gmail.com> <20260603133312.12848-1-freude@linux.ibm.com> <20260724160034.GB2032@sol> Content-Language: en-US From: Demi Marie Obenour Autocrypt: addr=demiobenour@gmail.com; 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micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="------------8JNKQ02asdP8sqLTJjoHdKEp" This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --------------8JNKQ02asdP8sqLTJjoHdKEp Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------tHcDdCFADMuM4KeFqlrbc8bo"; protected-headers="v1"; hp="clear" Message-ID: <0ccda05f-077c-4661-b852-e6bf9bf40be3@gmail.com> Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2026 16:35:13 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [PATCH 2/3] AF_ALG: Drop support for off-CPU cryptography To: Dominique Martinet , Eric Biggers Cc: Harald Freudenberger , acme@kernel.org, adrian.hunter@intel.com, alexander.shishkin@linux.intel.com, ardb@kernel.org, axboe@kernel.dk, corbet@lwn.net, davem@davemloft.net, edumazet@google.com, herbert@gondor.apana.org.au, horms@kernel.org, io-uring@vger.kernel.org, irogers@google.com, james.clark@linaro.org, jolsa@kernel.org, kuba@kernel.org, kuniyu@google.com, linux-crypto@vger.kernel.org, linux-doc@vger.kernel.org, linux-kernel@vger.kernel.org, linux-perf-users@vger.kernel.org, mark.rutland@arm.com, mingo@redhat.com, namhyung@kernel.org, netdev@vger.kernel.org, pabeni@redhat.com, peterz@infradead.org, skhan@linuxfoundation.org, willemb@google.com, linux-s390@vger.kernel.org References: <20260523-af-alg-harden-v1-2-c76755c3a5c5@gmail.com> <20260603133312.12848-1-freude@linux.ibm.com> <20260724160034.GB2032@sol> Content-Language: en-US From: Demi Marie Obenour Autocrypt: addr=demiobenour@gmail.com; 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charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 7/24/26 12:32, Dominique Martinet wrote: > Eric Biggers wrote on Fri, Jul 24, 2026 at 09:00:34AM -0700: >> On Sat, Jul 25, 2026 at 12:35:55AM +0900, Dominique Martinet wrote: >>> The tool source is available here: >>> https://github.com/nxp-imx/crypto_af_alg >>> (which now fails with: >>> bind(3, {sa_family=3DAF_ALG, salg_type=3D"skcipher", salg_feat=3D0, s= alg_mask=3D0, salg_name=3D"tk(cbc(aes))"}, 88) =3D -1 ENOENT (No such fil= e or directory) >>> ) >>> >>> >>> I don't particularily care for the API used as long as we can keep us= ing >>> the hardware key, but as far as I can see there's no alternative API = -- >>> what's the path forward? >> >> There's no "tk(cbc(aes))" algorithm in the upstream kernel. So, it's >> not possible that this ever worked with upstream. Given that, there's= >> no regression in upstream for this program, and it wouldn't be >> appropriate to consider a sysctl knob in upstream at this time. >=20 > Bleh, you are correct, it's an NXP patch in > drivers/crypto/caam/caamalg.c that they've been carrying in their > tree(s) since 2018[1] and has apparently never been upstreamed... > [1] https://github.com/nxp-imx/linux-imx/commit/6868c9e49c1854028fb4602= 2daac3b1b10ca2c70 >=20 > Sorry for not having checked, I was hoping for better. > (I should be used to it by now...) >=20 >=20 > Regardless of the specific algorithm, most recent SoCs flaunt some > "secure element" or similiar hardware-backed keys (so one wouldn't be > able to decrypt $whatever without running on the specific board it was > intended for); I'm sure _some_ of them are upstream? > (Never used it so not sure if they are reachable from af_alg, but for > example drivers/crypto/ccree/cc_cipher.c talks about hardware key...) >=20 > There's not much I can do about the vendor's kernel I'm stuck with, but= > that doesn't make having encryption material not accessible to userspac= e > useless as a concept; > forgetting about the sysctl for now, what are the alternatives API this= > kind of implementations could be based on? >=20 > I guess I should start looking at how tpm backed encryption works, > some other day, it's getting late here... I actually had this thought myself, though with a different use-case: preventing long-term keys (like TLS and SSH keys and cookie signing/encryption keys) from being accidentally leaked. I came up with a much simpler API than AF_ALG: 1. Generate a file descriptor and a wrapping key. The wrapping key is used to encrypt data that will be imported. 2. Import an encrypted secret key. The key contains both the secret key and the algorithm it will be used with. 3. Optionally, attach a restriction policy that requires data to be signed to start with a certain prefix. This provides domain separation in contexts where the same key is used for multiple purposes. 4. Pass the file descriptor to another process via SCM_RIGHTS. 5. The receiving process can use ioctls to perform secret-key operations, such as ML-KEM, ML-DSA, XChaCha20-Poly1305, and XAES-256-GCM. 6. When the file descriptor is closed, the secret key is securely deleted. =20 Compared to AF_ALG, the kernel attack surface is very small. It's not quite a "hello world" character device driver, but compared to many of the other drivers in the kernel, it is tiny. Furthermore, the whole thing should be able to be written in safe Rust. To keep the attack surface minimal, this would only use library functions, so there would be no support for hardware-wrapped keys. I don't plan to work on this myself, but I think it's of potential value in the future. For asymmetric algorithms, the overhead of a system call should be fairly small compared to the operation itself. --=20 Sincerely, Demi Marie Obenour (she/her/hers) --------------tHcDdCFADMuM4KeFqlrbc8bo-- --------------8JNKQ02asdP8sqLTJjoHdKEp Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="OpenPGP_signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="OpenPGP_signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEEopQtqVJW1aeuo9/sszaHOrMp8lMFAmpjzIsACgkQszaHOrMp 8lNPug/+IDHRwaftOISwVsC+WuuG9FgGOwTLlQjjABKkrEhHZObZ/mWU4BpfL+Ek ujcELLLDD1+ewxFwJoh9hynjIG9XDJEwXB7dLJuOYCiMLBWFk/Gujjh2YK2Pd+La VGBc9XNcz96+3O8jQtwTbu1P5kQBg5+5WUOPTmONUetB2pzwACQUuRrtMW3g2LrU PA9IyEB2n3i/D74GD5L0ca5RVzqf6YrUMrQ9qeMXGLCehhyZecnsMeweBWR6ikIT b1s8wFFMD2V0/A5mWhoCnFmmfiyFR3zZQ14ZuxJ1/rhwZVUYgtMnsC6L8zjJLsVm pNxg7iXUTnzVjL8467eLCS2Cl3r02dXgvSHt2/xxlpKjPiexOcb5DCzr1ecPlHuh TvX19LaVBuITkjtzOlyvzQ0EvBKVqUh3B6btKfyYQ3NEP57Khbjp71rSICESPqdv j6fv7iJMmYVPPsIb4yPYowfIHBm7baekQfml+0o+/8Wkmj62T2Cd0dUS7yEGJRIz WSiK+99wi6ucfbVEEJNR5vckddmPfpYOasHohP3IhTM89G3FLxmuwfO+2WBJPPXo 2NcfEWnlp7l8+QaZzvqnTqIVrqEPrfTuMIR421Z+OoDYCzdaP/hz+SLLPyZXBjF0 eISqWWtGWHVcK7u8UNxBEkFZFbj5385JeXjl4UhysytbZVCK9v0= =cZKJ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --------------8JNKQ02asdP8sqLTJjoHdKEp--