Re: So, what's the status on the recent patches here?

[Matthew Locke <matthew.a.locke@comcast.net>]

On Aug 29, 2006, at 10:49 AM, Preece Scott-PREECE wrote:

>
>> From: linux-pm-bounces@lists.osdl.org
>> [mailto:linux-pm-bounces@lists.osdl.org] On Behalf Of Pavel Machek
>> Sent: Tuesday, August 29, 2006 11:35 AM
>> To: David Singleton
>> Cc: linux-pm@lists.osdl.org
>> Subject: Re: [linux-pm] So, what's the status on the recent
>> patches here?
>>
>> Hi!
>>>>>         point, by name. There is a new
>>>> /sys/power/operating_points directory
>>>>>         that shows all the operating points the
>>>> system supports. An
>>>>>         exampled from my centrino laptop shows:
>>>>>
>>>>>         /sys/power/operating_points/high
>>>>>         /sys/power/operating_points/highest
>>>>>         /sys/power/operating_points/low
>>>>>         /sys/power/operating_points/lowest
>>>>>         /sys/power/operating_points/medium
>>>>>         /sys/power/operating_points/mem
>>>>>         /sys/power/operating_points/standby
>>>>
>>>> What makes you think that mixing operating and sleep
>> states is good
>>>> idea?
>>>
>>> They are all power states managed by the kernel and in the
>> operating
>>> point concept they are all operating points the system supports.
>>
>> That does not make mixing them right.
> ---
>
> Could you say why you think they shouldn't be mixed? Absent argument to
> the contrary,
> making it a single continuum seems appealing. Why have separate
> policies?

I know this questions is directed at Pavel but I have similar concerns. 
   I agree that making sleep states into operating points is appealing.  
However,  if the implementation is just going to special case the sleep 
state operating points then they should be handled separately.  As 
Pavel points out, you can see from Dave's implementation that the 
operating point definition doesn't quite work for both.   Voltage and 
frequency don't have meaning for the sleep points.  The per point 
transition callbacks are needed just to handle the sleep points.  
Latency has a very different meaning between the two types.  Also,  the 
type field is required to identify which points are sleep points and 
which ones are operating points.  I think the concept of using 
operating points to define sleep states could be a valid one but the 
implementation provided isn't quite right (yet).

However, this should not detract from mainlining PowerOP.  Integrating 
sleep and operating points is not required to use PowerOP.

>
> ---
>>
>>> The system can be set to any of the supported states by
>> setting their
>>> name in the /sys/power/state file.  I find simplicity is usually a
>>> good thing.
>>
>> I believe the quote is 'make it as simple as possible but not
>> simpler'.
> ---
>
> So, why don't you think this simplification is possible?
>
> ---
>>
>>>> And '600MHz' makes lot more sense than 'lowest' on centrino.
>>>
>>> Perhaps, but the common name space makes it easy for the
>> power manager
>>> daemon to perform the same functions without having to know
>> that the
>>> lowest speed on my laptop is 600Mhz.
>>
>> And enumerate english strings in power daemon? Limiting the
>> numver of states?
> ---
>
> Are you saying that on your laptop, all possible CPU and bus 
> frequencies
>
> can be used independently? So, it would be unnecessarily limiting to
> have
> the system designer provide a list of combinations that work? Remember
> that
> the scope of this is a limited set of parameters, not all the devices 
> in
> the system.
>
> ---
>>
>>>>
>>>>>         /sys/power/operating_points/high/frequency
>>>>>         /sys/power/operating_points/high/voltage
>>>>>         /sys/power/operating_points/high/latency
>>>>
>>>> What is voltage for 'mem'?
>>>
>>> I don't know what the voltage or latency is for mem.
>>> Perhaps Intel could better
>>> say what the voltage is in the suspend state and what the
>> latency was
>>> for transistion to that state.  I didn't have the data
>> available when
>>> I wrote the code.
>>
>> And you will not have data available even if intel helps you.
>> What is _frequency_ for mem? These fields are meaningless for
>> sleep states; that should tell you that mixing sleep and
>> operating states is bad idea.
> ---
>
> Why isn't 0 a meaningful value for frequency? And I can imagine
> that some hardware might have different voltage options for sleep
> States.  Additionally, these sys entries could represent the frequency,
> voltage, etc., that the system would go to upon resuming from sleep...

I think its more an issue with the implementation rather than the 
concept.  We can't just have frequency and voltage as shown in oppoint 
patches because we don't know which frequency and voltage they refer 
to.  The number of frequency and voltage parameters are completely 
dependent on the hardware platform.

You bring up a more interesting area to look at integrating sleep 
states and operating points.  Can we add some hooks that allow us to 
define which operating point is selected at resume?  Need to think 
about that a bit:)

>
> scott
>
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