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From: David Brownell <david-b@pacbell.net>
To: Pavel Machek <pavel@ucw.cz>
Cc: Linus Torvalds <torvalds@osdl.org>, linux-pm@lists.osdl.org
Subject: Re: [PATCH 2/2] Fix console handling during suspend/resume
Date: Sun, 25 Jun 2006 17:16:49 -0700	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <200606251716.49893.david-b@pacbell.net> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20060625230335.GA2519@elf.ucw.cz>

On Sunday 25 June 2006 4:03 pm, Pavel Machek wrote:

> Actually, what you are doing is _not_ suspend-to-RAM. You are doing
> (trying to do?) very advanced kind of runtime power management on PC
> platform (that happens to use S3).

What Jim said ... nothing about that wireless stuff is special.
You can do _exactly_ the same thing today, as follows:

  - Linux-USB peripheral, using "gadget" stack, running wireless
    hardware and software to do the routing, and supporting remote
    wakeup of the host;

  - Linux USB host, telling that peripheral to enter the USB suspend
    state and enabling remote wakeup for when a WLAN packet should
    be sent to the USB host.

The essential difference is just that the USB peripheral firmware
in the Broadcom thing is likely not using Linux for its RTOS.

Similarly with the display ... nothing prevents suspend states
from leaving a display on if that's more appropriate.


That said, it might be more appropriate to view the host side
sleep state as a "standby" (S1) than "suspend to RAM" (S3) in
the cases where quick wakeup is a priority.  (To ACPI, the speed
of those transitions is a key differentiator.)  And of course, the
fact that ACPI defines (very loosely!) S1 and S3 doesn't mean
there aren't a whole collection of S1 and S3 states that a
given hardware platform could define and use.

- Dave

  parent reply	other threads:[~2006-06-26  0:16 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 348+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2006-06-13 21:30 [PATCH 0/2] suspend-to-ram debugging patches Linus Torvalds
2006-06-13 21:35 ` [PATCH 1/2] Add some basic resume trace facilities Linus Torvalds
2006-06-13 22:10   ` Nigel Cunningham
2006-06-13 22:50     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-14 10:25   ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-13 21:40 ` [PATCH 2/2] Fix console handling during suspend/resume Linus Torvalds
2006-06-13 23:20   ` David Brownell
2006-06-13 23:46     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-14  0:00       ` Nigel Cunningham
2006-06-14  0:06         ` Randy.Dunlap
2006-06-14  0:18         ` Greg KH
2006-06-14  0:29           ` Nigel Cunningham
2006-06-14  0:34         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-14  0:29       ` David Brownell
2006-06-14 10:28     ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-14 11:15       ` Nigel Cunningham
2006-06-14 15:28       ` David Brownell
2006-06-14 10:34   ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-14 15:21     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-14 17:52       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-14 18:09         ` Dave Jones
2006-06-14 18:29           ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-14 19:13             ` Peter Jones
2006-06-14 19:17               ` Dave Jones
2006-06-14 21:40         ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-14 22:03           ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-14 22:12             ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-14 22:26               ` Peter Jones
2006-06-14 22:38                 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-14 22:44                   ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-14 22:59                     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-14 23:57                       ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-15  0:07                         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-15  1:54                           ` Nigel Cunningham
2006-06-15  2:48                             ` David Brownell
2006-06-15  8:39                               ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-15 14:56                                 ` Alan Stern
2006-06-15 16:14                                   ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-15 16:26                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-15 18:24                                       ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-15 19:35                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-15 20:03                                           ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-15 20:28                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-15 20:43                                               ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-15 21:04                                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-15 21:27                                                   ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-15 22:31                                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-15 23:01                                                       ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-16  4:15                                                       ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-16 13:26                                                       ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-16 23:05                                   ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-15 16:43                                 ` David Brownell
2006-06-15 16:52                                   ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-16  6:02                                     ` David Brownell
2006-06-15 16:17                           ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-15 16:53                             ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-15 16:59                               ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-15 17:41                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-15 17:51                                   ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-16  1:09                                   ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-15 17:04                               ` Alan Stern
2006-06-15 22:17                               ` Paul Mackerras
2006-06-15 22:24                                 ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-16  1:17                                 ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-16  1:15                               ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-16  2:28                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-16  2:50                                   ` Nigel Cunningham
2006-06-16  3:22                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-16  3:36                                       ` Nigel Cunningham
2006-06-16 14:03                                   ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-16 15:53                                     ` Alan Stern
2006-06-15  1:46                         ` David Brownell
2006-06-15  6:00                           ` Nigel Cunningham
2006-06-15 16:22                             ` David Brownell
2006-06-15  8:41                           ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-15 16:57                             ` David Brownell
2006-06-15 18:03                               ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-15 18:31                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-15 19:19                                   ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-15 19:40                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-15 20:30                                       ` Alan Stern
2006-06-15 20:56                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-15 21:10                                           ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-15 22:01                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-15 22:20                                               ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-15 22:41                                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-16 13:29                                                   ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-15 22:21                                               ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-15 22:44                                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-15 21:27                                           ` Alan Stern
2006-06-15 22:18                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-16 12:49                                               ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-16 13:22                                               ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-16  1:31                                           ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-16  2:53                                             ` Nigel Cunningham
2006-06-16  3:16                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-16  4:04                                               ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-16  1:26                                       ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-16  2:36                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-16  3:37                                           ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-16  4:37                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-16  6:02                                               ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-16 13:56                                           ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-16  1:21                                   ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-16  2:29                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-16  3:33                                       ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-16  4:35                                       ` David Brownell
2006-06-16  5:23                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-16  6:18                                           ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-16 13:42                                           ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-16 16:48                                           ` David Brownell
2006-06-16 13:58                                       ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-16 14:04                                 ` David Brownell
2006-06-16 18:31                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-16 18:45                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-16 23:04                                       ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-18 17:16                                         ` David Brownell
2006-06-16 21:28                                     ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-18 17:09                                       ` David Brownell
2006-06-18 17:16                                     ` David Brownell
2006-06-18 17:48                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-18 18:18                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-19  0:34                                           ` David Brownell
2006-06-20  2:15                                           ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-20 22:47                                           ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-19  3:54                                         ` David Brownell
2006-06-20 22:06                                           ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-21 21:17                                             ` David Brownell
2006-06-20 22:44                                         ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-21  0:49                                           ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-21  1:10                                             ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-21  2:40                                               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-21  2:57                                                 ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-21  3:23                                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-21  3:59                                                     ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-21  4:22                                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-21  4:36                                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-21  5:04                                                           ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-21 15:15                                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-21 15:33                                                               ` Alan Stern
2006-06-21 16:03                                                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-21 16:35                                                                   ` Alan Stern
2006-06-21 17:04                                                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-21 18:53                                                                       ` Alan Stern
2006-06-21 20:49                                                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-22  2:16                                                                           ` David Brownell
2006-06-22  1:04                                                                         ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-22  1:01                                                                       ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-22  2:22                                                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-22  2:47                                                                           ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-22  3:21                                                                             ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-22  3:18                                                                           ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-22  4:08                                                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-22  4:58                                                                               ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-22 16:10                                                                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-22 18:30                                                                                   ` David Brownell
2006-06-22 19:23                                                                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-22 22:43                                                                                       ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-23 18:06                                                                                       ` David Brownell
2006-06-23 19:23                                                                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-23 23:32                                                                                           ` Adam Belay
2006-06-23 23:44                                                                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-24  0:10                                                                                               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-24  0:39                                                                                                 ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-24  3:30                                                                                                 ` David Brownell
2006-06-24  4:10                                                                                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-24  0:22                                                                                               ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-24  0:29                                                                                                 ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-24  1:00                                                                                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-24  2:42                                                                                               ` Adam Belay
2006-06-24  3:12                                                                                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-24  4:04                                                                                                   ` David Brownell
2006-06-24  4:35                                                                                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-25  8:23                                                                                                     ` Adam Belay
2006-06-25 17:15                                                                                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-26 23:30                                                                                                       ` Greg KH
2006-06-24  4:07                                                                                                   ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-24 11:16                                                                                                     ` Nigel Cunningham
2006-06-24 16:24                                                                                                     ` Alan Stern
2006-06-24 22:28                                                                                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-24 22:41                                                                                                         ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-25  1:30                                                                                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-25  2:16                                                                                                           ` Alan Stern
2006-06-25  2:32                                                                                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-25 16:35                                                                                                               ` Alan Stern
2006-06-25  2:02                                                                                                         ` Alan Stern
2006-06-25 23:56                                                                                                         ` Nigel Cunningham
2006-06-26 23:31                                                                                                         ` Greg KH
2006-06-24 22:39                                                                                                     ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-29  0:37                                                                                                     ` Greg KH
2006-06-29  0:48                                                                                                       ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-29  3:09                                                                                                         ` Greg KH
2006-06-29  3:24                                                                                                           ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-29  4:21                                                                                                             ` Greg KH
2006-06-29  6:26                                                                                                               ` Greg KH
2006-06-29 22:58                                                                                                                 ` Greg KH
2006-06-29  9:50                                                                                                             ` Pavel Machek
2006-07-06 22:27                                                                                                             ` David Brownell
2006-07-06 22:31                                                                                                               ` Greg KH
2006-07-08 17:45                                                                                                                 ` PM_TRACE causing FSCK David Brownell
2006-07-06 23:27                                                                                                               ` [PATCH 2/2] Fix console handling during suspend/resume Dave Jones
2006-07-06 23:43                                                                                                                 ` Linus Torvalds
2006-07-06 23:59                                                                                                                   ` Dave Jones
2006-07-07  4:48                                                                                                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-07-07  8:35                                                                                                                       ` Pavel Machek
2006-07-06 23:51                                                                                                                 ` David Brownell
2006-07-09 23:28                                                                                                               ` David Brownell
2006-07-10  7:53                                                                                                                 ` Pavel Machek
2006-07-25 18:17                                                                                                               ` bus.suspend_prepare() David Brownell
2006-07-25 18:29                                                                                                                 ` bus.suspend_prepare() Linus Torvalds
2006-07-25 19:17                                                                                                                   ` bus.suspend_prepare() David Brownell
2006-07-25 22:24                                                                                                                     ` bus.suspend_prepare() Nigel Cunningham
2006-07-26 10:12                                                                                                                       ` bus.suspend_prepare() Pavel Machek
2006-07-26 10:11                                                                                                                     ` bus.suspend_prepare() Pavel Machek
2006-06-24  4:52                                                                                                   ` [PATCH 2/2] Fix console handling during suspend/resume Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-24  5:18                                                                                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-24  6:30                                                                                                       ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-24 17:06                                                                                                         ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2006-06-27  6:08                                                                                                         ` Adam Belay
2006-06-27  6:18                                                                                                           ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-27  6:58                                                                                                             ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-27 18:50                                                                                                               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-27 22:09                                                                                                                 ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-27  7:07                                                                                                             ` Adam Belay
2006-06-27 15:33                                                                                                             ` Alan Stern
2006-06-28  0:16                                                                                                               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-07-05 18:40                                                                                                             ` David Brownell
2006-07-05 20:12                                                                                                               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-07-05 23:03                                                                                                                 ` David Brownell
2006-07-06  1:15                                                                                                                   ` Pavel Machek
2006-07-06  1:52                                                                                                                     ` Nigel Cunningham
2006-07-06  7:15                                                                                                                       ` Nigel Cunningham
2006-07-06 13:22                                                                                                                         ` memcpy() in swsusp (was: Re: [PATCH 2/2] Fix console handling during suspend/resume) Rafael J. Wysocki
2006-07-06 14:19                                                                                                                           ` David Brownell
2006-07-06 14:26                                                                                                                             ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2006-07-06 20:35                                                                                                                               ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2006-07-06 23:36                                                                                                                                 ` Pavel Machek
2006-07-06 20:44                                                                                                                               ` David Brownell
2006-07-06 20:55                                                                                                                                 ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2006-07-06 21:01                                                                                                                                 ` Dave Jones
2006-07-06 21:07                                                                                                                                   ` David Brownell
2006-07-06 21:18                                                                                                                                     ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2006-07-06 22:06                                                                                                                                       ` Dave Jones
2006-07-07  8:20                                                                                                                                         ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2006-06-24  6:41                                                                                                       ` [PATCH 2/2] Fix console handling during suspend/resume Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-24 11:58                                                                                                         ` Nigel Cunningham
2006-06-24 21:20                                                                                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-25  1:10                                                                                                         ` David Brownell
2006-06-28 22:13                                                                                                         ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-24  3:33                                                                                               ` David Brownell
2006-06-23 23:53                                                                                           ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-24  3:28                                                                                             ` David Brownell
2006-06-24 21:33                                                                                               ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-25  1:00                                                                                                 ` David Brownell
2006-06-24  3:28                                                                                           ` David Brownell
2006-06-24 11:57                                                                                           ` Jim Gettys
2006-06-25 23:03                                                                                             ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-25 23:18                                                                                               ` Jim Gettys
2006-07-03 21:32                                                                                                 ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-26  0:16                                                                                               ` David Brownell [this message]
2006-06-28 22:16                                                                                                 ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-28 23:38                                                                                                   ` David Brownell
2006-06-22 22:21                                                                                   ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-22 22:31                                                                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-22 23:11                                                                                       ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-22 23:19                                                                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-22 23:21                                                                                           ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-22 23:31                                                                                           ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-22 23:41                                                                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-23  0:01                                                                                               ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-23  0:14                                                                                                 ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-23  0:05                                                                                               ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-23  0:08                                                                                               ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-23 16:26                                                                                             ` David Brownell
2006-06-23 20:36                                                                                               ` Adam Belay
2006-06-23 21:48                                                                                                 ` cpufreq-related updates [WAS: Fix console handling during suspend/resume] David Brownell
2006-06-23 22:10                                                                                                   ` Greg KH
2006-06-23 23:54                                                                                                     ` David Brownell
2006-06-23 22:53                                                                                                   ` Adam Belay
2006-06-22 23:31                                                                                           ` [PATCH 2/2] Fix console handling during suspend/resume Pavel Machek
2006-06-22 23:42                                                                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-22 23:51                                                                                               ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-23 18:15                                                                                                 ` David Brownell
2006-06-24 21:35                                                                                                   ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-24 22:00                                                                                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-25  0:57                                                                                                       ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-25  1:05                                                                                                         ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-25  1:12                                                                                                           ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-25  1:34                                                                                                             ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-25  2:21                                                                                                               ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-25 23:09                                                                                                           ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-22 23:53                                                                                               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-22 23:56                                                                                                 ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-23 16:37                                                                                         ` David Brownell
2006-06-22 23:13                                                                                       ` suspend debuggability [was Re: [PATCH 2/2] Fix console handling during suspend/resume] Pavel Machek
2006-06-22  5:52                                                                             ` [PATCH 2/2] Fix console handling during suspend/resume David Brownell
2006-06-22  6:28                                                                               ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-22 16:43                                                                               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-22 18:19                                                                                 ` David Brownell
2006-06-23 17:18                                                                       ` David Brownell
2006-06-23 17:43                                                                       ` David Brownell
2006-06-23 18:18                                                                       ` wakeup events [WAS: Re*N Fix console handling] David Brownell
2006-06-21 21:13                                                                   ` [PATCH 2/2] Fix console handling during suspend/resume David Brownell
2006-06-22  0:42                                                                   ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-21 22:54                                                               ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-22  0:15                                                               ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-22  2:21                                                                 ` David Brownell
2006-06-22  3:23                                                                   ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-22  5:36                                                                     ` David Brownell
2006-06-22 16:17                                                                     ` Alan Stern
2006-06-22 18:27                                                                       ` David Brownell
2006-06-22 20:31                                                                         ` Alan Stern
2006-06-22 23:48                                                                           ` David Brownell
2006-06-23  2:41                                                                             ` Alan Stern
2006-06-23 16:43                                                                               ` David Brownell
2006-06-23 18:32                                                                             ` Alan Stern
2006-06-24  3:39                                                                               ` David Brownell
2006-06-24 16:19                                                                                 ` Alan Stern
2006-06-25  2:20                                                                                 ` Alan Stern
2006-06-22 22:30                                                                       ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-23  2:35                                                                         ` Alan Stern
2006-06-21 21:22                                                           ` David Brownell
2006-06-21  4:45                                                         ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-21 15:08                                                           ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-21 22:51                                                             ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-22  0:48                                                               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-21 21:21                                                         ` David Brownell
2006-06-21 21:18                                                 ` David Brownell
2006-06-22  1:08                                                   ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-22  1:24                                                     ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-22  1:33                                                       ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-14 23:02                     ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2006-06-14 23:32                       ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-15  9:39                         ` Rafael J. Wysocki
2006-06-16  0:47                           ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-16  1:03                 ` Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-14 22:37               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-15  0:00                 ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-15  0:12                   ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-15  9:11                     ` suspend-devices-not-cpu [was Re: [PATCH 2/2] Fix console handling during suspend/resume] Pavel Machek
2006-06-15  0:39                 ` [PATCH 2/2] Fix console handling during suspend/resume Adam Belay
2006-06-15  0:40                   ` Greg KH
2006-06-15  1:50                     ` Adam Belay
2006-06-15  0:01               ` Linus Torvalds
2006-06-15  8:23                 ` Pavel Machek
2006-06-16  1:02         ` suspend/resume issue (Was: [PATCH 2/2] Fix console handling during suspend/resume) Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-16  8:01   ` [PATCH 2/2] Fix console handling during suspend/resume Benjamin Herrenschmidt
2006-06-16  0:45 ` [PATCH 0/2] suspend-to-ram debugging patches Benjamin Herrenschmidt

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