Promise SATA TX4 300 + 3TB disks?

Promise SATA TX4 300 + 3TB disks?

[Rainer Fügenstein]

hi,

I'd like to replace the 4x 1.5TB WD drives in my atom-based NAS-like
server with 4x 3TB ones - the SATA controller is a Promise TX4 300.
will this controller be able to handle 3TB disks? (not eager to find
out the hard way).

If not, which (inexpensive) PCI SATA controllers would you recommend?

tnx in advance.

Re: Promise SATA TX4 300 + 3TB disks?

[Stan Hoeppner]

On 10/4/2012 6:28 PM, Rainer Fügenstein wrote:

> I'd like to replace the 4x 1.5TB WD drives in my atom-based NAS-like
> server with 4x 3TB ones - the SATA controller is a Promise TX4 300.
> will this controller be able to handle 3TB disks? (not eager to find
> out the hard way).

The drive compat list on their site is dated 2005.  The largest drive
listed is less than 1TB.  The firmware for d/l is the initial
firmware--no updates.  Educated guess says the card won't support 3TB
drives.  Contact Promise support to verify.

> If not, which (inexpensive) PCI SATA controllers would you recommend?

I wouldn't.  If your mobo SATA chip supports PMP get a 5x1 PMP.  Check
the kernel.org SATA chip list for PMP capability:
https://ata.wiki.kernel.org/index.php/SATA_hardware_features

http://www.addonics.com/products/ad5sapm.php
1 host port, 5 drive ports, 3Gb/s SATAII

$62 from the manufacturer, probably found a little cheaper if you look
around.

If your mobo SATA chip is SATAII/III you'll get up to 600MB/s duplex
throughput via this PMP to the drives.  PCI-32/33 is limited to 132MB/s,
~4 times less throughput.

No additional drivers are required for the PMP.  You only need those for
the mobo SATA chip/port to which the PMP is connected.

Note:  if you plan to boot from this 4x3TB array then PMP is not for
you.  HBAs will apparently only boot from the device connected to drive
port #1 on the PMP.  Thus if that drive fails you may not be able to
boot from another drive in the array without manually swapping
connectors.  Swapping cables may affect device naming/ordering, possibly
causing problems with array assembly.

If you use wisely use a separate boot disk/SSD on another mobo SATA port
then this isn't an issue.

If your mobo SATA chip doesn't support PMP, let me know and I'll dig up
an appropriate inexpensive 4 port PCI SATA HBA for you.

-- 
Stan

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Re: Promise SATA TX4 300 + 3TB disks?

[Roman Mamedov]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 634 bytes --]

On Fri, 5 Oct 2012 01:28:26 +0200
Rainer Fügenstein <rfu@oudeis.org> wrote:

> If not, which (inexpensive) PCI SATA controllers would you recommend?

http://blog.zorinaq.com/?e=10

I would not recommend a PMP, with it your 5 disks will be limited to one SATA
port's bandwidth, which will not give you good performance. But by all means,
use up all of your mobo's onboard SATA ports first (for individual disks),
before using an addon controller's ports.

-- 
With respect,
Roman

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Stallman had a printer,
with code he could not see.
So he began to tinker,
and set the software free."

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

Re: Promise SATA TX4 300 + 3TB disks?

[Stan Hoeppner]

On 10/5/2012 1:36 AM, Roman Mamedov wrote:

> I would not recommend a PMP, with it your 5 disks will be limited to one SATA
> port's bandwidth, which will not give you good performance.

Roman is simply wrong here.  The PMP will give far better performance in
the OP's case than a 4 port PCI 32/33 HBA.

With 4 disks the SiI 3826 PMP will provide 2.27x-4.5x better throughput
per drive than a 4 port PCI 32/33 card.

FYI:

PCI bus, 32 bit, 33MHz		132MB/s total bandwidth
SATAII singe channel		600MB/s duplex, 300MB/s unidirectional

4 port PCI 32/33 card 		 33MB/s per drive maximum
PMP using 4 drive ports		150MB/s per drive maximum
				 75MB/s per drive unidirectional

You failed to take the system bus connection of the SATA chip into
account.  A single SATAII channel is 2.27x faster than the PCI bus.
Southbridge integrated SATA controllers typically have upstream
bandwidth of 2GB-8GB/s depending on the chipset.  Motherboard mounted
discrete secondary SATA controllers that provide 2-4 additional internal
or eSATA ports connect upstream via a PCIe x1 1.0/2.0 interface, good
for 250 or 500MB/s unidirectional, 500MB/s or 1GB/s duplex, ~2-8 times
faster than PCI 32/33.

This is why nobody uses PCI HBAs, unless they have no other option.  A
single 3TB rust drive can stream at ~150MB/s, slightly faster than the
PCI bus can accept the data.  Recent SSDs can push 500MB/s, 4x faster
than the PCI bus.

This is precisely why I recommended the PMP solution over a 4 port PCI
32/33 HBA.

-- 
Stan

Re: Promise SATA TX4 300 + 3TB disks?

[Roman Mamedov]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 655 bytes --]

On Fri, 05 Oct 2012 03:46:47 -0500
Stan Hoeppner <stan@hardwarefreak.com> wrote:

> > I would not recommend a PMP, with it your 5 disks will be limited to one SATA
> > port's bandwidth, which will not give you good performance.
> 
> Roman is simply wrong here.  The PMP will give far better performance in
> the OP's case than a 4 port PCI 32/33 HBA.

Compared to a 4-port PCI 32/33 card, sure. Sorry, I have overlooked the part
where author specifically asks for a PCI card.

-- 
With respect,
Roman

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Stallman had a printer,
with code he could not see.
So he began to tinker,
and set the software free."

[-- Attachment #2: signature.asc --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --]

Re[2]: Promise SATA TX4 300 + 3TB disks?

[Rainer Fügenstein]

roman, stan,

thanks for your input. I should have added some more information:

the mainboard is an intel D510MO which has "only" one PCI slot and 2
SATA ports. one port runs a 60GB SSD (system), the 2nd one a 3TB WD
drive for temporary data.
http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/motherboards/desktop-motherboards/desktop-board-di510mo.html

the 4x 1.5TB drives are connected to the promise TX4 300 in the only
PCI slot.

lspci:
00:1f.2 SATA controller: Intel Corporation N10/ICH7 Family SATA Controller [AHCI mode] (rev 01)
according to the kernel wiki PMP is not supported by the ICH7 chipset.

the 2nd application is an old avantek server with a tyan S2882-D
mainboard and 8 drive bays which I want to fill with old drives for
backup purposes. the 4port onboard SATA controller doesn't even
recognize 750GB drives (hangs at startup).
http://www.tyan.com/archive/products/html/thunderk8sdpro.html

performance is not an issue in both cases. both are more or less just
for storage, no time critical applications.

--
rainer

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Unix gives you just enough rope to hang yourself -- and then a couple of more 
feet, just to be sure.
(Eric Allman)
------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Re: Promise SATA TX4 300 + 3TB disks?

[John Robinson]

On 05/10/2012 14:33, Rainer Fügenstein wrote:
> roman, stan,
>
> thanks for your input. I should have added some more information:
>
> the mainboard is an intel D510MO which has "only" one PCI slot and 2
> SATA ports. one port runs a 60GB SSD (system), the 2nd one a 3TB WD
> drive for temporary data.
> http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/motherboards/desktop-motherboards/desktop-board-di510mo.html
>
> the 4x 1.5TB drives are connected to the promise TX4 300 in the only
> PCI slot.

Since you already have a 3TB drive, plug it in to the Promise card and 
see if it's recognised. Swapping drives around between adapters 
shouldn't upset md at all here.

Cheers,

John.

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Re: Promise SATA TX4 300 + 3TB disks?

[John Robinson]

On 05/10/2012 15:37, John Robinson wrote:
[...]
> Since you already have a 3TB drive, plug it in to the Promise card and
> see if it's recognised. Swapping drives around between adapters
> shouldn't upset md at all here.

NB You don't need the Promise BIOS to recognise the discs, just Linux.

If it doesn't work, go and buy an HP Microserver. They're like £80 
(€100, $130) by the time you've got your cashback.

Cheers,

John.

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Re: Promise SATA TX4 300 + 3TB disks?

[Stan Hoeppner]

On 10/5/2012 8:33 AM, Rainer Fügenstein wrote:
> roman, stan,
> 
> thanks for your input. I should have added some more information:
> 
> the mainboard is an intel D510MO which has "only" one PCI slot and 2
> SATA ports. one port runs a 60GB SSD (system), the 2nd one a 3TB WD
> drive for temporary data.
> http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/motherboards/desktop-motherboards/desktop-board-di510mo.html
> 
> the 4x 1.5TB drives are connected to the promise TX4 300 in the only
> PCI slot.
> 
> lspci:
> 00:1f.2 SATA controller: Intel Corporation N10/ICH7 Family SATA Controller [AHCI mode] (rev 01)
> according to the kernel wiki PMP is not supported by the ICH7 chipset.

Ok, that sucks.  So you're stuck with PCI on this box.  As I mentioned,
contact Promise and inquire about using 3TB drives with the 300 TX4,
just for piece of mind.

As John mentioned the TX4 BIOS/firmware shouldn't be an issue.  This is
a 48bit LBA controller and theoretically can access a single disk drive
of up to 144PB in size.

The barrier here, if any, will be your kernel.  If you're running a 32
bit kernel you can't address all 48 LBA bits, only 32 of them.  Thus you
can only access ~2TB of an LBA48 3TB drive.  The math:

((((2^32=4294967296) * 512B) = 2199023255552) / 1048576^2) = 2TB

This is the cause of the 2TB drive size limit you read about all over
the web.  If you have a 64bit kernel with an LBA48 controller (most are)
then this shouldn't be an issue, as all 48 LBA bits are addressable by a
64bit kernel.  With a 64bit kernel, if the TX4 doesn't give you all 3TB
per drive, then there's a driver or firmware bug present.

> the 2nd application is an old avantek server with a tyan S2882-D
> mainboard and 8 drive bays which I want to fill with old drives for
> backup purposes. the 4port onboard SATA controller doesn't even
> recognize 750GB drives (hangs at startup).
> http://www.tyan.com/archive/products/html/thunderk8sdpro.html

Assuming the hot swap bays in the chassis are indeed SATA/SAS and not
SCSI/SCA, then your best, least expensive, solution is the SuperMicro
AOC-SAT2-MV8 64-bit PCI-X133MHz:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16815121009

Provides you 8 SATA-II ports in a PCI-X 133MHz card for the same price
as two 4 port PCI 32/33 cards, but with 4 times the bandwidth.  Nobody
makes an 8 port PCI 32/33 card, so this is as good as it gets for the
money.  Check your Tyan manual.  Running a PCI-X 133 card usually
requires disabling/leaving empty the sister slot on that PCI-X bus,
and/or setting some jumpers.  This Tyan board, as with most PCI-X
workstation/entry server boards, has two PCI-X buses, two slots on each
bus.  These bandwidth and bus electrical loading hoops PCI-X requires us
to jump through directly resulted in the birth of serial PCI Express
interconnect.  No more shared buses, all slots usable, no hoops.

You provided no details of the chassis or backplane(s) or I could tell
you which, if any, reverse breakout cables you need.  If the
backplane(s) have 8 cable connectors you're golden.  If they have
2xSFF8087 connections then you'll need two reverse breakout cables.

-- 
Stan

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Re[2]: Promise SATA TX4 300 + 3TB disks?

[Rainer Fügenstein]

SH> As John mentioned the TX4 BIOS/firmware shouldn't be an issue.  This is
SH> a 48bit LBA controller and theoretically can access a single disk drive
SH> of up to 144PB in size.
this is the information I was hoping for ;-) sounds good.

SH> This is the cause of the 2TB drive size limit you read about all over
SH> the web.  If you have a 64bit kernel with an LBA48 controller (most are)
SH> then this shouldn't be an issue, as all 48 LBA bits are addressable by a
SH> 64bit kernel.  With a 64bit kernel, if the TX4 doesn't give you all 3TB
SH> per drive, then there's a driver or firmware bug present.

both systems are running CentOS5 with a recent 64bit kernel, so this
shouldn't be a problem.

SH> Assuming the hot swap bays in the chassis are indeed SATA/SAS and not
SH> SCSI/SCA, then your best, least expensive, solution is the SuperMicro
SH> AOC-SAT2-MV8 64-bit PCI-X133MHz:

ordered one on ebay yesterday, really looking forward to receiving it
:)

SH> You provided no details of the chassis or backplane(s) or I could tell
SH> you which, if any, reverse breakout cables you need.  If the
SH> backplane(s) have 8 cable connectors you're golden.  If they have
SH> 2xSFF8087 connections then you'll need two reverse breakout cables.

this second-hand server was originally equipped with an U320 scsi
backplane which I removed. by this the hotswap capability is lost,
the drives will be directly connected to the AOC-SAT2-MV8 controller,
I can live with that. nonetheless it would be nice to have a SATA
backplane, but by googling I couldn't find one that fits into this
chassis (blue/white AVANTEK).

tnx.

--
rainer

Re: Promise SATA TX4 300 + 3TB disks?

[Stan Hoeppner]

On 10/7/2012 12:37 PM, Rainer Fügenstein wrote:

> this second-hand server was originally equipped with an U320 scsi
> backplane which I removed. by this the hotswap capability is lost,
> the drives will be directly connected to the AOC-SAT2-MV8 controller,
> I can live with that. nonetheless it would be nice to have a SATA
> backplane, but by googling I couldn't find one that fits into this
> chassis (blue/white AVANTEK).

Trying to locate a SATA backplane/cage/carrier for this old chassis may
be the proverbial needle in a haystack search.  Your best option here
would likely be a new 8-bay SATA hot swap chassis and PSU, such as:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811219024
http://www.ebay.com/itm/EMACS-2U-460W-EPS12V-24-Pin-Power-Supply-P2G-6460P-/120995054350?pt=US_Server_Power_Supplies&hash=item1c2bde030e

If your current chassis is 2U you should be able to swap the PSU over.
Slim optical drives are pretty cheap if you need an optical drive:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16827151242

Used on Ebay they're about half that price, but I'd avoid used optical
drives, for obvious reasons, especially slim models.

> tnx.

You're welcome.  Always glad to help with hardware.  Note my email
domain. ;)

-- 
Stan

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