When do you replace old hard drives in a raid6?

When do you replace old hard drives in a raid6?

[Ram Ramesh]

I am curious if people actually replace hard drives periodically because 
they are old or out of warranty. My 5 device raid6 has several older 
drives (3/5 are 3+ years old and out of warranty) They seem fine with 
SMART and raid scrubs. However, it makes me wonder when they will die. 
What is the best policy in such situations? More importantly, do people 
wait for disks to die and then replace or have some ad hoc schedule of 
replacing (like every 6mo replace oldest) to keep things safe?

Regards
Ramesh

Re: When do you replace old hard drives in a raid6?

[Phil Turmel]

On 03/05/2016 03:49 PM, Ram Ramesh wrote:
> I am curious if people actually replace hard drives periodically because
> they are old or out of warranty. My 5 device raid6 has several older
> drives (3/5 are 3+ years old and out of warranty) They seem fine with
> SMART and raid scrubs. However, it makes me wonder when they will die.
> What is the best policy in such situations? More importantly, do people
> wait for disks to die and then replace or have some ad hoc schedule of
> replacing (like every 6mo replace oldest) to keep things safe?

I replace drives when their relocation count hits double digits.  In my
limited sample, that's typically after 40,000 hours.

Phil

Re: When do you replace old hard drives in a raid6?

[Ram Ramesh]

On 03/06/2016 06:29 PM, Phil Turmel wrote:
> On 03/05/2016 03:49 PM, Ram Ramesh wrote:
>> I am curious if people actually replace hard drives periodically because
>> they are old or out of warranty. My 5 device raid6 has several older
>> drives (3/5 are 3+ years old and out of warranty) They seem fine with
>> SMART and raid scrubs. However, it makes me wonder when they will die.
>> What is the best policy in such situations? More importantly, do people
>> wait for disks to die and then replace or have some ad hoc schedule of
>> replacing (like every 6mo replace oldest) to keep things safe?
> I replace drives when their relocation count hits double digits.  In my
> limited sample, that's typically after 40,000 hours.
>
> Phil

Thanks for the data point. 40K hours means roughly 4.5 years with 24/7. 
That is very good. You use enterprise drives? Mine are desktop (and may 
be one HGST NAS)

My SMART is perfect except for power on hours. I am going to take it 
easy for now as I have a spare (not part of a RAID) just in case 
something bad happens.

Ramesh

Re: When do you replace old hard drives in a raid6?

[Weedy]

On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 7:52 PM, Ram Ramesh <rramesh2400@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 03/06/2016 06:29 PM, Phil Turmel wrote:
>>
>> On 03/05/2016 03:49 PM, Ram Ramesh wrote:
>>>
>>> I am curious if people actually replace hard drives periodically because
>>> they are old or out of warranty. My 5 device raid6 has several older
>>> drives (3/5 are 3+ years old and out of warranty) They seem fine with
>>> SMART and raid scrubs. However, it makes me wonder when they will die.
>>> What is the best policy in such situations? More importantly, do people
>>> wait for disks to die and then replace or have some ad hoc schedule of
>>> replacing (like every 6mo replace oldest) to keep things safe?
>>
>> I replace drives when their relocation count hits double digits.  In my
>> limited sample, that's typically after 40,000 hours.
>>
>> Phil
>
>
> Thanks for the data point. 40K hours means roughly 4.5 years with 24/7. That
> is very good. You use enterprise drives?

They don't have to be, cheap crap can last. My case slots the drives
in vertically with large silicone dampers, I feel like this helps.

Model Family:     Seagate Barracuda 7200.10
Device Model:     ST3320620AS
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   036    Pre-fail
Always       -       0
  9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   040   040   000    Old_age
Always       -       52576

Model Family:     Seagate Barracuda 7200.10
Device Model:     ST3320620AS
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   036    Pre-fail
Always       -       0
  9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   048   048   000    Old_age
Always       -       46196

Model Family:     Western Digital Caviar Black
Device Model:     WDC WD1001FALS-00E8B0
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   200   200   140    Pre-fail
Always       -       0
  9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   039   039   000    Old_age
Always       -       44551


Model Family:     SAMSUNG SpinPoint F1 DT
Device Model:     SAMSUNG HD103UJ
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   010    Pre-fail
Always       -       10
  9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   087   087   000    Old_age
Always       -       67735


Model Family:     Western Digital Caviar Black
Device Model:     WDC WD1001FALS-00E8B0
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   200   200   140    Pre-fail
Always       -       0
  9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   040   040   000    Old_age
Always       -       44427

Model Family:     SAMSUNG SpinPoint F1 DT
Device Model:     SAMSUNG HD103UJ
  5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   010    Pre-fail
Always       -       6
  9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   093   093   000    Old_age
Always       -       36570


I would say the biggest thing is how often you get a reallocated
sector. The Samsungs seem to get 1-3 a year, they will probably keep
doing that until they die. Past experience with seagate tells me I'm
going to get 10 in one day and the drive will die in a week. The WD
will probably throw a few at a time and I'll dump them when they get
to 10-15 sectors.

Re: When do you replace old hard drives in a raid6?

[Ram Ramesh]

On 03/06/2016 08:31 PM, Weedy wrote:
> On Sun, Mar 6, 2016 at 7:52 PM, Ram Ramesh <rramesh2400@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 03/06/2016 06:29 PM, Phil Turmel wrote:
>>> On 03/05/2016 03:49 PM, Ram Ramesh wrote:
>>>> I am curious if people actually replace hard drives periodically because
>>>> they are old or out of warranty. My 5 device raid6 has several older
>>>> drives (3/5 are 3+ years old and out of warranty) They seem fine with
>>>> SMART and raid scrubs. However, it makes me wonder when they will die.
>>>> What is the best policy in such situations? More importantly, do people
>>>> wait for disks to die and then replace or have some ad hoc schedule of
>>>> replacing (like every 6mo replace oldest) to keep things safe?
>>> I replace drives when their relocation count hits double digits.  In my
>>> limited sample, that's typically after 40,000 hours.
>>>
>>> Phil
>>
>> Thanks for the data point. 40K hours means roughly 4.5 years with 24/7. That
>> is very good. You use enterprise drives?
> They don't have to be, cheap crap can last. My case slots the drives
> in vertically with large silicone dampers, I feel like this helps.
>
> Model Family:     Seagate Barracuda 7200.10
> Device Model:     ST3320620AS
>    5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   036    Pre-fail
> Always       -       0
>    9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   040   040   000    Old_age
> Always       -       52576
>
> Model Family:     Seagate Barracuda 7200.10
> Device Model:     ST3320620AS
>    5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   036    Pre-fail
> Always       -       0
>    9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   048   048   000    Old_age
> Always       -       46196
>
> Model Family:     Western Digital Caviar Black
> Device Model:     WDC WD1001FALS-00E8B0
>    5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   200   200   140    Pre-fail
> Always       -       0
>    9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   039   039   000    Old_age
> Always       -       44551
>
>
> Model Family:     SAMSUNG SpinPoint F1 DT
> Device Model:     SAMSUNG HD103UJ
>    5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   010    Pre-fail
> Always       -       10
>    9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   087   087   000    Old_age
> Always       -       67735
>
>
> Model Family:     Western Digital Caviar Black
> Device Model:     WDC WD1001FALS-00E8B0
>    5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   200   200   140    Pre-fail
> Always       -       0
>    9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   040   040   000    Old_age
> Always       -       44427
>
> Model Family:     SAMSUNG SpinPoint F1 DT
> Device Model:     SAMSUNG HD103UJ
>    5 Reallocated_Sector_Ct   0x0033   100   100   010    Pre-fail
> Always       -       6
>    9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   093   093   000    Old_age
> Always       -       36570
>
>
> I would say the biggest thing is how often you get a reallocated
> sector. The Samsungs seem to get 1-3 a year, they will probably keep
> doing that until they die. Past experience with seagate tells me I'm
> going to get 10 in one day and the drive will die in a week. The WD
> will probably throw a few at a time and I'll dump them when they get
> to 10-15 sectors.
I hear you. I have not had any fails myself in my 20+ years. I have 
gotten rid of them because they became too small relative what market 
offered. Until recently, I had a working 8G (yes, 8G!) IBM IDE drive 
from my first computer (20+ years ago) It was a keepsake. They do not 
make them this tough these days. I am almost sure that a new seagate 
desktop 6TB is not going to last this long.

All said and done, I think I feel I have less to worry. Thanks for 
helping me to see that.

I run long selftest once a month and will watch the RAID scrubs and 
SMART values. I should be ok until I see my first reallocated sector 
hit.  After that I will buy my replacements.

Ramesh

Re: When do you replace old hard drives in a raid6?

[Phil Turmel]

On 03/06/2016 07:52 PM, Ram Ramesh wrote:
> On 03/06/2016 06:29 PM, Phil Turmel wrote:
>> On 03/05/2016 03:49 PM, Ram Ramesh wrote:
>>> I am curious if people actually replace hard drives periodically because
>>> they are old or out of warranty. My 5 device raid6 has several older
>>> drives (3/5 are 3+ years old and out of warranty) They seem fine with
>>> SMART and raid scrubs. However, it makes me wonder when they will die.
>>> What is the best policy in such situations? More importantly, do people
>>> wait for disks to die and then replace or have some ad hoc schedule of
>>> replacing (like every 6mo replace oldest) to keep things safe?
>> I replace drives when their relocation count hits double digits.  In my
>> limited sample, that's typically after 40,000 hours.
>>
>> Phil
> 
> Thanks for the data point. 40K hours means roughly 4.5 years with 24/7.
> That is very good. You use enterprise drives? Mine are desktop (and may
> be one HGST NAS)

I moved from desktop drives to NAS drives about 4 years ago.  So the
40k+ hours were on desktop drives.  (A couple started dying in the mid
30,000's, but I suspect I overheated those two.)  The oldest NAS drives
I have now are approaching 40k, and are all still @ zero relocations.
WD Reds, fwiw.

> My SMART is perfect except for power on hours. I am going to take it
> easy for now as I have a spare (not part of a RAID) just in case
> something bad happens.

Yes, sounds reasonable.

Phil

Re: When do you replace old hard drives in a raid6?

[Ram Ramesh]

On 03/06/2016 11:18 PM, Phil Turmel wrote:
> On 03/06/2016 07:52 PM, Ram Ramesh wrote:
>> On 03/06/2016 06:29 PM, Phil Turmel wrote:
>>> On 03/05/2016 03:49 PM, Ram Ramesh wrote:
>>>> I am curious if people actually replace hard drives periodically because
>>>> they are old or out of warranty. My 5 device raid6 has several older
>>>> drives (3/5 are 3+ years old and out of warranty) They seem fine with
>>>> SMART and raid scrubs. However, it makes me wonder when they will die.
>>>> What is the best policy in such situations? More importantly, do people
>>>> wait for disks to die and then replace or have some ad hoc schedule of
>>>> replacing (like every 6mo replace oldest) to keep things safe?
>>> I replace drives when their relocation count hits double digits.  In my
>>> limited sample, that's typically after 40,000 hours.
>>>
>>> Phil
>> Thanks for the data point. 40K hours means roughly 4.5 years with 24/7.
>> That is very good. You use enterprise drives? Mine are desktop (and may
>> be one HGST NAS)
> I moved from desktop drives to NAS drives about 4 years ago.  So the
> 40k+ hours were on desktop drives.  (A couple started dying in the mid
> 30,000's, but I suspect I overheated those two.)  The oldest NAS drives
> I have now are approaching 40k, and are all still @ zero relocations.
> WD Reds, fwiw.
>
>> My SMART is perfect except for power on hours. I am going to take it
>> easy for now as I have a spare (not part of a RAID) just in case
>> something bad happens.
> Yes, sounds reasonable.
>
> Phil
>
My disks have about 10K hours (my server only runs from 4pm-2am). I 
think I have quite a bit of life left
assuming an on/off cycle is not as bad as extra 14 hours of run time.

Ramesh

Re: When do you replace old hard drives in a raid6?

[John Stoffel]

>>>>> "Ram" == Ram Ramesh <rramesh2400@gmail.com> writes:

Ram> On 03/06/2016 11:18 PM, Phil Turmel wrote:
>> On 03/06/2016 07:52 PM, Ram Ramesh wrote:
>>> On 03/06/2016 06:29 PM, Phil Turmel wrote:
>>>> On 03/05/2016 03:49 PM, Ram Ramesh wrote:
>>>>> I am curious if people actually replace hard drives periodically because
>>>>> they are old or out of warranty. My 5 device raid6 has several older
>>>>> drives (3/5 are 3+ years old and out of warranty) They seem fine with
>>>>> SMART and raid scrubs. However, it makes me wonder when they will die.
>>>>> What is the best policy in such situations? More importantly, do people
>>>>> wait for disks to die and then replace or have some ad hoc schedule of
>>>>> replacing (like every 6mo replace oldest) to keep things safe?
>>>> I replace drives when their relocation count hits double digits.  In my
>>>> limited sample, that's typically after 40,000 hours.
>>>> 
>>>> Phil
>>> Thanks for the data point. 40K hours means roughly 4.5 years with 24/7.
>>> That is very good. You use enterprise drives? Mine are desktop (and may
>>> be one HGST NAS)
>> I moved from desktop drives to NAS drives about 4 years ago.  So the
>> 40k+ hours were on desktop drives.  (A couple started dying in the mid
>> 30,000's, but I suspect I overheated those two.)  The oldest NAS drives
>> I have now are approaching 40k, and are all still @ zero relocations.
>> WD Reds, fwiw.
>> 
>>> My SMART is perfect except for power on hours. I am going to take it
>>> easy for now as I have a spare (not part of a RAID) just in case
>>> something bad happens.
>> Yes, sounds reasonable.
>> 
>> Phil
>> 

Ram> My disks have about 10K hours (my server only runs from
Ram> 4pm-2am). I think I have quite a bit of life left assuming an
Ram> on/off cycle is not as bad as extra 14 hours of run time.

The on/off is much worse than just sitting and spinning.  That's what
tends to kill drives in my experience.  Drives die no matter what, but
laptops and other systems which power off/on tend to die much more
quickly.

John

Re: When do you replace old hard drives in a raid6?

[Mikael Abrahamsson]

On Tue, 8 Mar 2016, Ram Ramesh wrote:

> My disks have about 10K hours (my server only runs from 4pm-2am). I 
> think I have quite a bit of life left assuming an on/off cycle is not as 
> bad as extra 14 hours of run time.

I had very high failure rates of the early 2TB WD Greens, but I still have 
some WD20EARS and WD20EADS that are alive after 58k hours.

One of the slightly lower power on time ones has a scary load cycle count 
though:

Device Model:     WDC WD20EARS-00S8B1
   9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   033   033   000    Old_age   Always       -       49255
193 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0032   001   001   000    Old_age   Always       -       1317839

I'm running this as RAID6+spare and I'm just going to let these run until 
they fail and replace them with WD REDs one by one. I clearly had bathtub 
effect where I had several drives I replaced under warranty in the first 
1-2 years of their lifetime, but the ones that replaced them, and the ones 
that didn't fail, still seems to be doing fine.

I have two drives with reallocated sectors, but it's 3 and 5 sectors 
respectively, so this is not worrying yet.

I wish we had raid6e (or whatever to call it) with 3 parity drives, I'd 
really like to run that instead of raid6+spare.

-- 
Mikael Abrahamsson    email: swmike@swm.pp.se

Re: When do you replace old hard drives in a raid6?

[Roman Mamedov]

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On Wed, 9 Mar 2016 07:43:16 +0100 (CET)
Mikael Abrahamsson <swmike@swm.pp.se> wrote:

> I had very high failure rates of the early 2TB WD Greens, but I still have 
> some WD20EARS and WD20EADS that are alive after 58k hours.

In my experience a major cause for the WD failures is that they develop rust
on the PCB contacts which connect to the drive insides, see e.g.:
http://ods.com.ua/win/rus/other/hdd/2/wd_cont2.jpg
http://www.chipmaker.ru/uploads/monthly_12_2013/post/image/post-7336-020632100%201388236036.jpg
and: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDTt_yjYYQ8

If such WD drive has just developed several unreadable sectors, this often can
be solved by checking and cleaning those contacts, then overwriting the whole
drive with zeroes (or well, with whatever you want, the point is to rewrite
all the "badly written" areas), then it will likely work fine for years after
that.

> One of the slightly lower power on time ones has a scary load cycle count 
> though:
> 
> Device Model:     WDC WD20EARS-00S8B1
>    9 Power_On_Hours          0x0032   033   033   000    Old_age   Always       -       49255
> 193 Load_Cycle_Count        0x0032   001   001   000    Old_age   Always       -       1317839

This can be disabled:
http://www.storagereview.com/how_to_stop_excessive_load_cycles_on_the_western_digital_2tb_caviar_green_wd20ears_with_wdidle3
http://idle3-tools.sourceforge.net/

-- 
With respect,
Roman

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Re: When do you replace old hard drives in a raid6?

[Carsten Aulbert]

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Hi

On 03/07/2016 01:29 AM, Phil Turmel wrote:
> I replace drives when their relocation count hits double digits.  In my
> limited sample, that's typically after 40,000 hours.

It really depends a lot on the drive type and manufacturer (for example
see the various reports by Backblaze).

We run quite a number of "desktop" style drives and many have seen 60k
and more power on hours, but then our data collection is a bit biased as
we replace disks once they do not complete a "long" smartcheck (smartctl
-t long).

I've attached a sorted list of current data, columns are mostly:

manufacturer
model number
reallocated sectors (ID 5 of smartctl -a)
power on hours (also according to smartctl -a)

So, not sure one could infer much from these lines due to the inherent bias.

Personally, I would monitor the number of reallocated and pending
blocks, run short tests often and long tests about once a week. This
should give you at least some hint, if a drive may go down. And if it
does unexpectedly, you should be covered by RAID6.

Cheers

Carsten

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Re: When do you replace old hard drives in a raid6?

[Wols Lists]

On 07/03/16 06:59, Carsten Aulbert wrote:
> It really depends a lot on the drive type and manufacturer (for example
> see the various reports by Backblaze).

I've seen it reported that Seagate Barracudas (I remembered it because
that's what I've got) have a bit of a design fault. I think the air
filter has a tendency to leak, and that could be why they fail so quick
once they go - they get dust into them.

Cheers,
Wol