linux-raid.vger.kernel.org archive mirror
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: Roberto Spadim <roberto@spadim.com.br>
To: "Keld Jørn Simonsen" <keld@keldix.com>
Cc: Jon Nelson <jnelson-linux-raid@jamponi.net>, linux-raid@vger.kernel.org
Subject: Re: What's the typical RAID10 setup?
Date: Wed, 2 Feb 2011 20:26:24 -0200	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <AANLkTinROfr2EevWZnq3jzZCW7ctrR_1c6GSevnjQfhK@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <20110202221358.GA16382@www2.open-std.org>

nice, i don´t know if it´s a problem of single thread
i think it´s a problem about async read command being executed in parallel
i post again at https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=887345
please see the history at the end of page
i´m talking about a disk with 5000rpm and a disk with 7000rpm
i think we can optimize mirror read algorithm and it´s not very hard
for same speed hard disk, near mirror is good
for same speed solid state, round robin is good
for anyone, time based is good

diferences?
hard disk: time to position head is high, time to read can be small
solid state: time to position is small, time to read is small (some
ssd are old, and have small read rate)
nbd: time based on server hard/solid disk, and network time, but don´t
think in nbd yet

2011/2/2 Keld Jørn Simonsen <keld@keldix.com>:
> Hmm, Roberto, I think we are close to theoretical maximum with
> some of the raid1/raid10 stuff already. and my nose tells me
> that we can gain more by minimizing CPU usage.
> Or maybe using some threading for raid modules - they
> all run single-threaded.
>
> Best regards
> keld
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 02, 2011 at 06:28:27PM -0200, Roberto Spadim wrote:
>> before, this thread i put at this page:
>> https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=887267
>> to make this mail list with less emails
>>
>> 2011/2/2 Keld Jørn Simonsen <keld@keldix.com>:
>> > Hmm, Roberto, where are the gains?
>>
>> it?s dificult to talk... NCQ and linux scheduler don?t help a mirror,
>> they help a single device
>> a new scheduler for mirrors can be done (round robin, closest head, others)
>>
>> > I think it is hard to make raid1 better than it is today.
>> i don?t think, since head, is just for hard disk (rotational) not for
>> solid state disks, let?s not talk about ssd, just hard disk? a raid
>> with 5000rpm  and 10000rpm disk, we will have better i/o read with
>> 10000rpm ? we don?t know the model of i/o for that device, but
>> probally will be faster, but when it?s busy we could use 5000rpm...
>> that?s the point, just closest head don?t help, we need know what?s
>> the queue (list of i/o being processed) and the time to read the
>> current i/o
>>
>> > Normally the driver orders the reads to minimize head movement
>> > and loss with rotation latency. Where can  we improve that?
>>
>> no way to improve it, it?s very good! but per hard disk, not per mirror
>> but since we know it?s busy we can use another mirror (another disk
>> with same information), that?s what i want
>>
>> > Also, what about conflicts with the elevator algorithm?
>> elevator are based on model of disk, think disk as: linux elevator +
>> NCQ + disks, the sum of three infomration give us time based
>> infomrations to select best device
>> maybe making complex code (per elevator) we could know the time spent
>> to execute it, but it?s a lot of work,
>> for the first model, lets think about parameters of our model (linux
>> elevator + ncq + disks)
>> a second version we could implement elevator algorithm time
>> calculation (network block device NBD, have a elevator? at server side
>> + tcp/ip stack at client and server side, right?)
>>
>> > There are several scheduling algorithms available, and each has
>> > its merits. Will your new scheme work against these?
>> > Or is your new scheme just another scheduling algorithm?
>>
>> it?s a scheduling for mirrors
>> round balance is a algorithm for mirror
>> closest head is a algorithm for mirror
>> my 'new' algorith will be for mirror (if anyone help me coding for
>> linux kernel hehehe, i didn?t coded for linux kernel yet, just for
>> user space)
>>
>> noop, deadline, cfq isn?t for mirror, these are for raid0 problem
>> (linear, stripe if you hard disk have more then one head on your hard
>> disk)
>>
>> > I think I learned that scheduling is per drive, not per file system.
>> yes, you learned right! =)
>> /dev/md0 (raid1) is a device with scheduling (closest head,round robin)
>> /dev/sda is a device with scheduling (noop, deadline, cfq, others)
>> /dev/sda1 is a device with scheduling (it send all i/o directly to /dev/sda)
>>
>> the new algorithm is just for mirrors (raid1), i dont remeber about
>> raid5,6 if they are mirror based too, if yes they could be optimized
>> with this algorithm too
>>
>> raid0 don?t have mirrors, but information is per device striped (not
>> for linear), that?s why it can be faster... can make parallel reads
>>
>> with closest head we can?t use best disk, we can use a single disk all
>> time if it?s head closer, maybe it?s not the fastest disk (that?s why
>> we implent the write-mostly, we don?t make they usable for read, just
>> for write or when mirror fail, but it?s not perfect for speed, a
>> better algorithm can be made, for identical disks, a round robin work
>> well, better than closest head if it?s a solid state disk)
>> ok on a high load, maybe closest mirror is better than this algorithm?
>> yes, if you just use hard disk, if you mix hard disk+solid
>> state+network block device +floppy disks+any other device, you don?t
>> have the best algorithm for i/o over mirrors
>>
>>
>> > and is it reading or writing or both? Normally we are dependant on the
>> > reading, as we cannot process data before we have read them.
>> > OTOH writing is less time critical, as nobody is waiting for it.
>> it must be implemented on write and read, write for just time
>> calculations, read for select the best mirror
>> for write we must write on all mirrors (sync write is better, async
>> isn?t power fail safe)
>>
>> > Or is it maximum thruput you want?
>> > Or a mix, given some restraints?
>> it?s the maximum performace = what?s the better strategy to spent less
>> time to execute current i/o, based on time to access disk, time to
>> read bytes, time to wait others i/o being executed
>>
>> that?s for mirror select, not for disks i/o
>> for disks we can use noop, deadline, cfq scheduller (for disks)
>> tcp/ip tweaks for network block device
>>
>> a model identification must execute to tell the mirror select
>> algorithm what?s the model of each device
>> model: time to read X bytes, time to move head, time to start a read,
>> time to write, time time time per byte per kb per units
>> calcule time and select the minimal value calculated as the device
>> (mirror) to execute our read
>>
>>
>> >
>> > best regards
>> > keld
>>
>> thanks keld
>>
>> sorry if i make email list very big
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Roberto Spadim
>> Spadim Technology / SPAEmpresarial
> --
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-raid" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
>



-- 
Roberto Spadim
Spadim Technology / SPAEmpresarial
--
To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-raid" in
the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

  reply	other threads:[~2011-02-02 22:26 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 127+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2011-01-31  9:41 What's the typical RAID10 setup? Mathias Burén
2011-01-31 10:14 ` Robin Hill
2011-01-31 10:22   ` Mathias Burén
2011-01-31 10:36 ` CoolCold
2011-01-31 15:00   ` Roberto Spadim
2011-01-31 15:21     ` Robin Hill
2011-01-31 15:27       ` Roberto Spadim
2011-01-31 15:28         ` Roberto Spadim
2011-01-31 15:32           ` Roberto Spadim
2011-01-31 15:34             ` Roberto Spadim
2011-01-31 15:37               ` Roberto Spadim
2011-01-31 15:45             ` Robin Hill
2011-01-31 16:55         ` Denis
2011-01-31 17:31           ` Roberto Spadim
2011-01-31 18:35             ` Denis
2011-01-31 19:15               ` Roberto Spadim
2011-01-31 19:28                 ` Keld Jørn Simonsen
2011-01-31 19:35                   ` Roberto Spadim
2011-01-31 19:37                     ` Roberto Spadim
2011-01-31 20:22                     ` Keld Jørn Simonsen
2011-01-31 20:17                   ` Stan Hoeppner
2011-01-31 20:37                     ` Keld Jørn Simonsen
2011-01-31 21:20                       ` Roberto Spadim
2011-01-31 21:24                         ` Mathias Burén
2011-01-31 21:27                           ` Jon Nelson
2011-01-31 21:47                             ` Roberto Spadim
2011-01-31 21:51                               ` Roberto Spadim
2011-01-31 22:50                                 ` NeilBrown
2011-01-31 22:53                                   ` Roberto Spadim
2011-01-31 23:10                                     ` NeilBrown
2011-01-31 23:14                                       ` Roberto Spadim
2011-01-31 22:52                               ` Keld Jørn Simonsen
2011-01-31 23:00                                 ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-01 10:01                                 ` David Brown
2011-02-01 13:50                                   ` Jon Nelson
2011-02-01 14:25                                     ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-01 14:48                                     ` David Brown
2011-02-01 15:41                                       ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-03  3:36                                         ` Drew
2011-02-03  8:18                                           ` Stan Hoeppner
     [not found]                                           ` <AANLkTikerSZfhMbkEvGBVyLB=wHDSHLWszoEz5As5Hi4@mail.gmail.com>
     [not found]                                             ` <AANLkTikLyR206x4aMy+veNkWPV67uF9r5dZKGqXJUEqN@mail.gmail.com>
2011-02-03 14:35                                               ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-03 15:43                                                 ` Keld Jørn Simonsen
2011-02-03 15:50                                                   ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-03 15:54                                                     ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-03 16:02                                                     ` Keld Jørn Simonsen
2011-02-03 16:07                                                       ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-03 16:16                                                       ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-01 22:05                                     ` Stan Hoeppner
2011-02-01 23:12                                       ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-02  9:25                                         ` Robin Hill
2011-02-02 16:00                                           ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-02 16:06                                             ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-02 16:07                                               ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-02 16:10                                                 ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-02 16:13                                                   ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-02 19:44                                                     ` Keld Jørn Simonsen
2011-02-02 20:28                                                       ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-02 21:31                                                         ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-02 22:13                                                         ` Keld Jørn Simonsen
2011-02-02 22:26                                                           ` Roberto Spadim [this message]
2011-02-03  1:57                                                             ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-03  3:05                                                         ` Stan Hoeppner
2011-02-03  3:13                                                           ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-03  3:17                                                             ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-01 23:35                                       ` Keld Jørn Simonsen
2011-02-01 16:02                                   ` Keld Jørn Simonsen
2011-02-01 16:24                                     ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-01 17:56                                       ` Keld Jørn Simonsen
2011-02-01 18:09                                         ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-01 20:16                                           ` Keld Jørn Simonsen
2011-02-01 20:32                                     ` Keld Jørn Simonsen
2011-02-01 20:58                                       ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-01 21:04                                         ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-01 21:18                                     ` David Brown
2011-02-01  0:58                             ` Stan Hoeppner
2011-02-01 12:50                               ` Roman Mamedov
2011-02-03 11:04                               ` Keld Jørn Simonsen
2011-02-03 14:17                                 ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-03 15:54                                   ` Keld Jørn Simonsen
2011-02-03 18:39                                     ` Keld Jørn Simonsen
2011-02-03 18:41                                       ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-03 23:43                                 ` Stan Hoeppner
2011-02-04  3:49                                   ` hansbkk
2011-02-04  7:06                                   ` Keld Jørn Simonsen
2011-02-04  8:27                                     ` Stan Hoeppner
2011-02-04  9:06                                       ` Keld Jørn Simonsen
2011-02-04 10:04                                         ` Stan Hoeppner
2011-02-04 11:15                                           ` hansbkk
2011-02-04 13:33                                             ` Keld Jørn Simonsen
2011-02-04 20:35                                           ` Keld Jørn Simonsen
2011-02-04 20:42                                         ` Keld Jørn Simonsen
2011-02-04 21:15                                           ` Stan Hoeppner
2011-02-04 22:05                                             ` Keld Jørn Simonsen
2011-02-04 23:03                                               ` Stan Hoeppner
2011-02-06  3:59                                                 ` Drew
2011-02-06  4:27                                                   ` Stan Hoeppner
2011-02-04 11:34                                       ` David Brown
2011-02-04 13:53                                         ` Keld Jørn Simonsen
2011-02-04 14:17                                           ` David Brown
2011-02-04 14:21                                           ` hansbkk
2011-02-06  4:02                                             ` Drew
2011-02-06  7:58                                               ` Keld Jørn Simonsen
2011-02-06 12:03                                                 ` Roman Mamedov
2011-02-06 14:30                                                   ` Roberto Spadim
2011-02-01  8:46                             ` hansbkk
2011-01-31 19:37               ` Phillip Susi
2011-01-31 19:41                 ` Roberto Spadim
2011-01-31 19:46                   ` Phillip Susi
2011-01-31 19:53                     ` Roberto Spadim
2011-01-31 22:10                       ` Phillip Susi
2011-01-31 22:14                         ` Denis
2011-01-31 22:33                           ` Roberto Spadim
2011-01-31 22:36                             ` Roberto Spadim
2011-01-31 20:23                 ` Stan Hoeppner
2011-01-31 21:59                   ` Phillip Susi
2011-01-31 22:08                     ` Jon Nelson
2011-01-31 22:38                       ` Phillip Susi
2011-02-01 10:05                         ` David Brown
2011-02-01  9:20                     ` Robin Hill
2011-02-04 16:03                       ` Phillip Susi
2011-02-04 16:22                         ` Robin Hill
2011-02-04 20:35                           ` [OT] " Phil Turmel
2011-02-04 20:35                           ` Phillip Susi
2011-02-04 21:05                           ` Stan Hoeppner
2011-02-04 21:13                             ` Roberto Spadim
2011-01-31 15:30       ` Robin Hill
2011-01-31 20:07 ` Stan Hoeppner

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=AANLkTinROfr2EevWZnq3jzZCW7ctrR_1c6GSevnjQfhK@mail.gmail.com \
    --to=roberto@spadim.com.br \
    --cc=jnelson-linux-raid@jamponi.net \
    --cc=keld@keldix.com \
    --cc=linux-raid@vger.kernel.org \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox;
as well as URLs for NNTP newsgroup(s).