* Re: [ewg] [PATCH v4] IB Core: RAW ETH support [not found] ` <1276513450.30132.51.camel-uOVkuFIEnOODI2cvxHXf6UEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org> @ 2010-06-15 21:14 ` Roland Dreier [not found] ` <aday6eguhfn.fsf-BjVyx320WGW9gfZ95n9DRSW4+XlvGpQz@public.gmane.org> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Roland Dreier @ 2010-06-15 21:14 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Alekseys Senin Cc: Eli Cohen, Moni Shoua, ewg@openfabrics.org, linux-rdma-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA > I tested it before on the Roland tree ( iboe branch ) and it fails, > because it writen in the way suitable for OFED. If adapt the patch to > the Roland tree, then appling Mellanox OFED patches will fail, because > it changes the same functions in the code. > Here is one example: > Look at __mlx4_ib_modify_qp at the Roland tree - there is no RAW_ETY > support. But in the OFED version of the same function this support is > present. > RAW_ETH patch modify this function and looking for RAW_ETY word and > without this RAW_ETH Mellanox patch will fail. Don't take this too personally -- I picked a semi-random email in this thread to reply to; this is pretty broadly targeted. <rant> What the hell is the thinking behind introducing IB_QPT_RAW_ETH? You're inserting an enum value before IB_QPT_RAW_ETY, so any old userspace passing in IB_QPT_RAW_ETY will silently get different behavior depending on the kernel version. And you're creating two constands that differ in a single letter (IB_QPT_RAW_ETY vs. IB_QPT_RAW_ETH). How are you going to explain that to users? How is anyone ever going to get it right? For that matter, what exactly does IB_QPT_RAW_ETH mean? This all seems to be a symptom of how broken our development process is. Yes, unfortunately I can't spend as much time reviewing and applying patches as I might like, and I apologize for that. But if we have all the RDMA developers piling up shit in their little area and then sending it on to be merged as soon as it kind of works, without thinking about design or maintainability and without ever doing any review, then I'm always going to have an expanding review backlog. And then we have OFED compounding problems -- "Oh that's a nice pile of shit you've built there. We better ship it to users while it's still steaming." How about if OFED developers take a little time to think things through? </rant> In other words, can someone explain the plan for this raw QP stuff to me? - R. -- Roland Dreier <rolandd-FYB4Gu1CFyUAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> || For corporate legal information go to: http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-rdma" in the body of a message to majordomo-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
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* Re: [ewg] [PATCH v4] IB Core: RAW ETH support [not found] ` <aday6eguhfn.fsf-BjVyx320WGW9gfZ95n9DRSW4+XlvGpQz@public.gmane.org> @ 2010-06-16 14:09 ` Steve Wise [not found] ` <4C18DB37.6050501-7bPotxP6k4+P2YhJcF5u+vpXobYPEAuW@public.gmane.org> 2010-06-16 14:53 ` [ewg] " Moni Shoua 1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Steve Wise @ 2010-06-16 14:09 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Roland Dreier Cc: Alekseys Senin, linux-rdma-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA, Eli Cohen, ewg-G2znmakfqn7U1rindQTSdQ@public.gmane.org, Moni Shoua Roland Dreier wrote: > > I tested it before on the Roland tree ( iboe branch ) and it fails, > > because it writen in the way suitable for OFED. If adapt the patch to > > the Roland tree, then appling Mellanox OFED patches will fail, because > > it changes the same functions in the code. > > Here is one example: > > Look at __mlx4_ib_modify_qp at the Roland tree - there is no RAW_ETY > > support. But in the OFED version of the same function this support is > > present. > > RAW_ETH patch modify this function and looking for RAW_ETY word and > > without this RAW_ETH Mellanox patch will fail. > > Don't take this too personally -- I picked a semi-random email in this > thread to reply to; this is pretty broadly targeted. > > <rant> > > What the hell is the thinking behind introducing IB_QPT_RAW_ETH? You're > inserting an enum value before IB_QPT_RAW_ETY, so any old userspace > passing in IB_QPT_RAW_ETY will silently get different behavior depending > on the kernel version. And you're creating two constands that differ in > a single letter (IB_QPT_RAW_ETY vs. IB_QPT_RAW_ETH). How are you going > to explain that to users? How is anyone ever going to get it right? > For that matter, what exactly does IB_QPT_RAW_ETH mean? > > This all seems to be a symptom of how broken our development process > is. Yes, unfortunately I can't spend as much time reviewing and > applying patches as I might like, and I apologize for that. But if we > have all the RDMA developers piling up shit in their little area and > then sending it on to be merged as soon as it kind of works, without > thinking about design or maintainability and without ever doing any > review, then I'm always going to have an expanding review backlog. > > And then we have OFED compounding problems -- "Oh that's a nice pile of > shit you've built there. We better ship it to users while it's still > steaming." How about if OFED developers take a little time to think > things through? > > </rant> > > In other words, can someone explain the plan for this raw QP stuff to me? > > - R. > It doesn't even look like this patch and the mlx4 patch were ever posted to linux-rdma. Only to the EWG list. Granted our dev process may not be documented, but I always assumed the general idea was to get changes accepted upstream, then pull into ofed. OFED is just a mechanism to make top-of-tree linux work on distro kernels. There are some exceptions, but this stuff shouldn't be an exception. We should all follow this "upstream first" process IMO. Steve. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-rdma" in the body of a message to majordomo-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
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* Re: [ewg] [PATCH v4] IB Core: RAW ETH support [not found] ` <4C18DB37.6050501-7bPotxP6k4+P2YhJcF5u+vpXobYPEAuW@public.gmane.org> @ 2010-06-16 15:47 ` Moni Shoua [not found] ` <4C18F21D.3050502-hKgKHo2Ms0F+cjeuK/JdrQ@public.gmane.org> 2010-06-16 17:02 ` Jason Gunthorpe 1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Moni Shoua @ 2010-06-16 15:47 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Steve Wise Cc: Roland Dreier, Alekseys Senin, linux-rdma-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA, Eli Cohen, ewg-G2znmakfqn7U1rindQTSdQ@public.gmane.org > > > It doesn't even look like this patch and the mlx4 patch were ever posted > to linux-rdma. Only to the EWG list. > Not 100% correct. See thread from April 30. Patches to core, libibverbs and NES driver were presented there. > Granted our dev process may not be documented, but I always assumed the > general idea was to get changes accepted upstream, then pull into ofed. > OFED is just a mechanism to make top-of-tree linux work on distro > kernels. There are some exceptions, but this stuff shouldn't be an > exception. > > We should all follow this "upstream first" process IMO. > -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-rdma" in the body of a message to majordomo-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
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* Re: [ewg] [PATCH v4] IB Core: RAW ETH support [not found] ` <4C18F21D.3050502-hKgKHo2Ms0F+cjeuK/JdrQ@public.gmane.org> @ 2010-06-16 15:54 ` Steve Wise [not found] ` <4C18F39D.3040609-7bPotxP6k4+P2YhJcF5u+vpXobYPEAuW@public.gmane.org> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Steve Wise @ 2010-06-16 15:54 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Moni Shoua Cc: Roland Dreier, Alekseys Senin, linux-rdma-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA, Eli Cohen, ewg-G2znmakfqn7U1rindQTSdQ@public.gmane.org Moni Shoua wrote: > > >> It doesn't even look like this patch and the mlx4 patch were ever posted >> to linux-rdma. Only to the EWG list. >> >> > Not 100% correct. See thread from April 30. > Patches to core, libibverbs and NES driver were presented there. > > I'll go look, but I thought the NES stuff was for RAW_ETY qp types. Not RAW_ETH... >> Granted our dev process may not be documented, but I always assumed the >> general idea was to get changes accepted upstream, then pull into ofed. >> OFED is just a mechanism to make top-of-tree linux work on distro >> kernels. There are some exceptions, but this stuff shouldn't be an >> exception. >> >> We should all follow this "upstream first" process IMO. >> >> > > > -- > To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-rdma" in > the body of a message to majordomo-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org > More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html > -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-rdma" in the body of a message to majordomo-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
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* RE: [ewg] [PATCH v4] IB Core: RAW ETH support [not found] ` <4C18F39D.3040609-7bPotxP6k4+P2YhJcF5u+vpXobYPEAuW@public.gmane.org> @ 2010-06-16 15:59 ` Tung, Chien Tin 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Tung, Chien Tin @ 2010-06-16 15:59 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Steve Wise, Moni Shoua Cc: Roland Dreier, Alekseys Senin, linux-rdma-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org, Eli Cohen, ewg-G2znmakfqn7U1rindQTSdQ@public.gmane.org > >> It doesn't even look like this patch and the mlx4 patch were ever posted > >> to linux-rdma. Only to the EWG list. > >> > >> > > Not 100% correct. See thread from April 30. > > Patches to core, libibverbs and NES driver were presented there. > > > > > > I'll go look, but I thought the NES stuff was for RAW_ETY qp types. Not > RAW_ETH... There was a problem with the original patch series from Mirek and it didn't show up in patchwork. Subsequently there's been bug fixes including the defines. I think it would be easier if the whole thing is cleaned up and resubmitted. Resolving the define name would be great as I got very confused the first time I saw it and I still don't understand it fully. Chien -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-rdma" in the body of a message to majordomo-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [ewg] [PATCH v4] IB Core: RAW ETH support [not found] ` <4C18DB37.6050501-7bPotxP6k4+P2YhJcF5u+vpXobYPEAuW@public.gmane.org> 2010-06-16 15:47 ` Moni Shoua @ 2010-06-16 17:02 ` Jason Gunthorpe [not found] ` <20100616170234.GA2932-ePGOBjL8dl3ta4EC/59zMFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> 1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Jason Gunthorpe @ 2010-06-16 17:02 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Steve Wise Cc: Roland Dreier, Alekseys Senin, linux-rdma-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA, Eli Cohen, ewg-G2znmakfqn7U1rindQTSdQ@public.gmane.org, Moni Shoua On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 09:09:59AM -0500, Steve Wise wrote: > Granted our dev process may not be documented, but I always assumed the > general idea was to get changes accepted upstream, then pull into ofed. > OFED is just a mechanism to make top-of-tree linux work on distro > kernels. There are some exceptions, but this stuff shouldn't be an > exception. That is what many people wish for, me included, but it is not at all what generally happens :( In my observation the typical flow is: - A patch is written, it may or may not be sent to the list - 'business drivers' get it slammed into OFED right away - A patch is finally sent for proper review - It is not merged, there are comments.. - Interest in doing anything is lost because it is already in OFED and that is all that matters, right? - People complain. For instance, the iWarp thingy we were just discussing fits this process rather well. Jason -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-rdma" in the body of a message to majordomo-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
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* Re: [ewg] [PATCH v4] IB Core: RAW ETH support [not found] ` <20100616170234.GA2932-ePGOBjL8dl3ta4EC/59zMFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> @ 2010-06-16 17:12 ` Steve Wise [not found] ` <4C1905E6.2000304-7bPotxP6k4+P2YhJcF5u+vpXobYPEAuW@public.gmane.org> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Steve Wise @ 2010-06-16 17:12 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jason Gunthorpe Cc: Roland Dreier, Alekseys Senin, linux-rdma-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA, Eli Cohen, ewg-G2znmakfqn7U1rindQTSdQ@public.gmane.org, Moni Shoua Jason Gunthorpe wrote: > On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 09:09:59AM -0500, Steve Wise wrote: > > >> Granted our dev process may not be documented, but I always assumed the >> general idea was to get changes accepted upstream, then pull into ofed. >> OFED is just a mechanism to make top-of-tree linux work on distro >> kernels. There are some exceptions, but this stuff shouldn't be an >> exception. >> > > That is what many people wish for, me included, but it is not at all > what generally happens :( > > In my observation the typical flow is: > - A patch is written, it may or may not be sent to the list > - 'business drivers' get it slammed into OFED right away > - A patch is finally sent for proper review > - It is not merged, there are comments.. > - Interest in doing anything is lost because it is already in > OFED and that is all that matters, right? > - People complain. > > For instance, the iWarp thingy we were just discussing fits this > process rather well. > > You're wrong. I started that iWARP change in 2007 on LKLM. I proposed a few ideas and show the pros/cons of each. And it was NAKed 100% by mister miller. It was then included in OFED as a last resort only because I couldn't get any help with trying to add this upstream in any form. I even spent a few weeks developing a way to administor "iwarp only" ipaddresses, but Roland didn't like that scheme for various reasons. So please don't mention that particular patch as a "bad process" unless you want to argue with me some more about it. Also, the chelsio iWARP driver has 100% been upstream first, then ofed. Some of us are indeed trying to do the right thing. <steps off soap box> -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-rdma" in the body of a message to majordomo-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
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* Re: [ewg] [PATCH v4] IB Core: RAW ETH support [not found] ` <4C1905E6.2000304-7bPotxP6k4+P2YhJcF5u+vpXobYPEAuW@public.gmane.org> @ 2010-06-16 17:52 ` Jason Gunthorpe [not found] ` <20100616175259.GF4630-ePGOBjL8dl3ta4EC/59zMFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> 2010-06-17 14:10 ` Doug Ledford 1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Jason Gunthorpe @ 2010-06-16 17:52 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Steve Wise Cc: Roland Dreier, Alekseys Senin, linux-rdma-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA, Eli Cohen, ewg-G2znmakfqn7U1rindQTSdQ@public.gmane.org, Moni Shoua On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 12:12:06PM -0500, Steve Wise wrote: >>> Granted our dev process may not be documented, but I always assumed >>> the general idea was to get changes accepted upstream, then pull into >>> ofed. OFED is just a mechanism to make top-of-tree linux work on >>> distro kernels. There are some exceptions, but this stuff shouldn't >>> be an exception. >> That is what many people wish for, me included, but it is not at all >> what generally happens :( >> >> In my observation the typical flow is: >> - A patch is written, it may or may not be sent to the list >> - 'business drivers' get it slammed into OFED right away >> - A patch is finally sent for proper review >> - It is not merged, there are comments.. >> - Interest in doing anything is lost because it is already in >> OFED and that is all that matters, right? >> - People complain. >> >> For instance, the iWarp thingy we were just discussing fits this >> process rather well. > You're wrong. I started that iWARP change in 2007 on LKLM. I proposed > a few ideas and show the pros/cons of each. And it was NAKed 100% by > mister miller. It was then included in OFED as a last resort only > because I couldn't get any help with trying to add this upstream in any > form. I even spent a few weeks developing a way to administor "iwarp > only" ipaddresses, but Roland didn't like that scheme for various > reasons. So please don't mention that particular patch as a "bad > process" unless you want to argue with me some more about it. Uhm, what you just described does fit my process outline: #1 - Patch written, sent to LKML. Check. #3 - Patch sent for proper review - in 2007. Check. #4 - Not merged. NAK by DM. Check. #2 - 'business drivers' force it into OFED - 'last resort' ie, iWarp cards can't be used without some fix. Check. #5 - Interest is lost. Yep, this was done in 2007, and it was idle till now. Check. #6 - People Complain. Hmm. Yep. Check. Don't think I'm being critical toward only you, or singling out that little iWarp patch. But it really isn't special, or different, or an exception. Pick nearly any patch in OFED and someone will rush to its defense with a 'we tried to follow the process and it failed, so we did it anyway' argument. I also didn't say this is the only way that RDMA development goes, lots and lots of stuff goes into mainline first, from everyone. Jason -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-rdma" in the body of a message to majordomo-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
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* Re: [ewg] [PATCH v4] IB Core: RAW ETH support [not found] ` <20100616175259.GF4630-ePGOBjL8dl3ta4EC/59zMFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org> @ 2010-06-16 18:35 ` Steve Wise [not found] ` <4C19195B.1080003-7bPotxP6k4+P2YhJcF5u+vpXobYPEAuW@public.gmane.org> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Steve Wise @ 2010-06-16 18:35 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Jason Gunthorpe Cc: Roland Dreier, Alekseys Senin, linux-rdma-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA, Eli Cohen, ewg-G2znmakfqn7U1rindQTSdQ@public.gmane.org, Moni Shoua Jason Gunthorpe wrote: > On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 12:12:06PM -0500, Steve Wise wrote: > > >>>> Granted our dev process may not be documented, but I always assumed >>>> the general idea was to get changes accepted upstream, then pull into >>>> ofed. OFED is just a mechanism to make top-of-tree linux work on >>>> distro kernels. There are some exceptions, but this stuff shouldn't >>>> be an exception. >>>> > > >>> That is what many people wish for, me included, but it is not at all >>> what generally happens :( >>> >>> In my observation the typical flow is: >>> - A patch is written, it may or may not be sent to the list >>> - 'business drivers' get it slammed into OFED right away >>> - A patch is finally sent for proper review >>> - It is not merged, there are comments.. >>> - Interest in doing anything is lost because it is already in >>> OFED and that is all that matters, right? >>> - People complain. >>> >>> For instance, the iWarp thingy we were just discussing fits this >>> process rather well. >>> > > >> You're wrong. I started that iWARP change in 2007 on LKLM. I proposed >> a few ideas and show the pros/cons of each. And it was NAKed 100% by >> mister miller. It was then included in OFED as a last resort only >> because I couldn't get any help with trying to add this upstream in any >> form. I even spent a few weeks developing a way to administor "iwarp >> only" ipaddresses, but Roland didn't like that scheme for various >> reasons. So please don't mention that particular patch as a "bad >> process" unless you want to argue with me some more about it. >> > > Uhm, what you just described does fit my process outline: > > #1 - Patch written, sent to LKML. Check. > #3 - Patch sent for proper review - in 2007. Check. > #4 - Not merged. NAK by DM. Check. > #2 - 'business drivers' force it into OFED - 'last resort' ie, iWarp > cards can't be used without some fix. Check. > #5 - Interest is lost. Yep, this was done in 2007, and it was idle > till now. Check. > #6 - People Complain. Hmm. Yep. Check. > > Note the ordering is different. IE I tried very hard to get the "right" solution designed and agreed-upon upstream. But failed. That's my bad. I did, however help with the iWARP core code including neighbour update net events which did go in upstream before ofed. > Don't think I'm being critical toward only you, or singling out that > little iWarp patch. But it really isn't special, or different, or an > exception. Pick nearly any patch in OFED and someone will rush to its > defense with a 'we tried to follow the process and it failed, so we > did it anyway' argument. > > I also didn't say this is the only way that RDMA development goes, > lots and lots of stuff goes into mainline first, from everyone. > > Jason > OFED maintainers should be more rigid, perhaps, with requiring that changes be accepted upstream first. One observation is that there is no "OFED RDMA maintainer", aka a Roland Dreier, for the OFED code. So each driver maintainer pretty much has free reign to do the right thing or the wrong thing... Steve. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-rdma" in the body of a message to majordomo-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
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* Re: [PATCH v4] IB Core: RAW ETH support [not found] ` <4C19195B.1080003-7bPotxP6k4+P2YhJcF5u+vpXobYPEAuW@public.gmane.org> @ 2010-06-17 13:58 ` Doug Ledford 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Doug Ledford @ 2010-06-17 13:58 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Steve Wise Cc: ewg-G2znmakfqn7U1rindQTSdQ@public.gmane.org, Eli Cohen, linux-rdma-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA, Moni Shoua, Roland Dreier, Jason Gunthorpe [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3830 bytes --] On 06/16/2010 02:35 PM, Steve Wise wrote: > Jason Gunthorpe wrote: >> On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 12:12:06PM -0500, Steve Wise wrote: >> >> >>>>> Granted our dev process may not be documented, but I always assumed >>>>> the general idea was to get changes accepted upstream, then pull >>>>> into ofed. OFED is just a mechanism to make top-of-tree linux work >>>>> on distro kernels. There are some exceptions, but this stuff >>>>> shouldn't be an exception. >>>>> >> >> >>>> That is what many people wish for, me included, but it is not at all >>>> what generally happens :( >>>> >>>> In my observation the typical flow is: >>>> - A patch is written, it may or may not be sent to the list >>>> - 'business drivers' get it slammed into OFED right away >>>> - A patch is finally sent for proper review >>>> - It is not merged, there are comments.. >>>> - Interest in doing anything is lost because it is already in >>>> OFED and that is all that matters, right? >>>> - People complain. >>>> >>>> For instance, the iWarp thingy we were just discussing fits this >>>> process rather well. >>>> >> >> >>> You're wrong. I started that iWARP change in 2007 on LKLM. I >>> proposed a few ideas and show the pros/cons of each. And it was >>> NAKed 100% by mister miller. It was then included in OFED as a >>> last resort only because I couldn't get any help with trying to add >>> this upstream in any form. I even spent a few weeks developing a >>> way to administor "iwarp only" ipaddresses, but Roland didn't like >>> that scheme for various reasons. So please don't mention that >>> particular patch as a "bad process" unless you want to argue with me >>> some more about it. >>> >> >> Uhm, what you just described does fit my process outline: >> >> #1 - Patch written, sent to LKML. Check. >> #3 - Patch sent for proper review - in 2007. Check. >> #4 - Not merged. NAK by DM. Check. >> #2 - 'business drivers' force it into OFED - 'last resort' ie, iWarp >> cards can't be used without some fix. Check. >> #5 - Interest is lost. Yep, this was done in 2007, and it was idle >> till now. Check. >> #6 - People Complain. Hmm. Yep. Check. >> >> > > Note the ordering is different. IE I tried very hard to get the "right" > solution designed and agreed-upon upstream. But failed. That's my > bad. I did, however help with the iWARP core code including neighbour > update net events which did go in upstream before ofed. > >> Don't think I'm being critical toward only you, or singling out that >> little iWarp patch. But it really isn't special, or different, or an >> exception. Pick nearly any patch in OFED and someone will rush to its >> defense with a 'we tried to follow the process and it failed, so we >> did it anyway' argument. >> >> I also didn't say this is the only way that RDMA development goes, >> lots and lots of stuff goes into mainline first, from everyone. >> >> Jason >> > > > OFED maintainers should be more rigid, perhaps, with requiring that > changes be accepted upstream first. One observation is that there is no > "OFED RDMA maintainer", aka a Roland Dreier, for the OFED code. So each > driver maintainer pretty much has free reign to do the right thing or > the wrong thing... Yep, no doubt that has an impact on things. It's for this very reason that our next operating system is not following OFED but instead is using upstream as its basis. That will be true from now on with our products. -- Doug Ledford <dledford-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> GPG KeyID: CFBFF194 http://people.redhat.com/dledford Infiniband specific RPMs available at http://people.redhat.com/dledford/Infiniband [-- Attachment #1.2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 176 bytes --] _______________________________________________ ewg mailing list ewg-ZwoEplunGu1OwGhvXhtEPSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org http://lists.openfabrics.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ewg ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [PATCH v4] IB Core: RAW ETH support [not found] ` <4C1905E6.2000304-7bPotxP6k4+P2YhJcF5u+vpXobYPEAuW@public.gmane.org> 2010-06-16 17:52 ` Jason Gunthorpe @ 2010-06-17 14:10 ` Doug Ledford 1 sibling, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Doug Ledford @ 2010-06-17 14:10 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Steve Wise Cc: ewg-G2znmakfqn7U1rindQTSdQ@public.gmane.org, Eli Cohen, linux-rdma-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA, Moni Shoua, Roland Dreier, Jason Gunthorpe [-- Attachment #1.1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3433 bytes --] On 06/16/2010 01:12 PM, Steve Wise wrote: > Jason Gunthorpe wrote: >> On Wed, Jun 16, 2010 at 09:09:59AM -0500, Steve Wise wrote: >> >> >>> Granted our dev process may not be documented, but I always assumed >>> the general idea was to get changes accepted upstream, then pull into >>> ofed. OFED is just a mechanism to make top-of-tree linux work on >>> distro kernels. There are some exceptions, but this stuff shouldn't >>> be an exception. >>> >> >> That is what many people wish for, me included, but it is not at all >> what generally happens :( >> >> In my observation the typical flow is: >> - A patch is written, it may or may not be sent to the list >> - 'business drivers' get it slammed into OFED right away >> - A patch is finally sent for proper review >> - It is not merged, there are comments.. >> - Interest in doing anything is lost because it is already in >> OFED and that is all that matters, right? >> - People complain. >> >> For instance, the iWarp thingy we were just discussing fits this >> process rather well. >> >> > > You're wrong. I started that iWARP change in 2007 on LKLM. I proposed > a few ideas and show the pros/cons of each. And it was NAKed 100% by > mister miller. It was then included in OFED as a last resort only ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Which, of course, is the problem. Once you have a solution besides "get it upstream", you throw whatever you feel like into OFED instead of whatever upstream will accept. How long has OFED shipped the XRC stuff now while it *still* isn't upstream? > because I couldn't get any help with trying to add this upstream in any > form. Again, OFED is part of the reason this failed. That users had someplace else to get "working" code besides upstream meant that you didn't have end users putting pressure on the upstream kernel folks to accept *some* form of solution. So, your job was harder because there were no users present to put pressure on mister miller or others, and then you perpetuated the issue by caving and going back to OFED "as a last resort". It has become a "last resort" so often now that trying to get things upstream first is just a sort of private joke amongst some people I think. > I even spent a few weeks developing a way to administor "iwarp > only" ipaddresses, but Roland didn't like that scheme for various > reasons. So please don't mention that particular patch as a "bad > process" unless you want to argue with me some more about it. > > Also, the chelsio iWARP driver has 100% been upstream first, then > ofed. Some of us are indeed trying to do the right thing. > > <steps off soap box> OFED just needs to go away. It's been far too abused for far too long and it's mere existence is hindering upstream development. I appreciate that you attempt to do the right thing most of the time, but it really needs to be all of the time, and you need your users right there beside you in order to carry the weight you need in order to get solutions designed and accepted instead of running into the brick wall you ran into before. -- Doug Ledford <dledford-H+wXaHxf7aLQT0dZR+AlfA@public.gmane.org> GPG KeyID: CFBFF194 http://people.redhat.com/dledford Infiniband specific RPMs available at http://people.redhat.com/dledford/Infiniband [-- Attachment #1.2: OpenPGP digital signature --] [-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 198 bytes --] [-- Attachment #2: Type: text/plain, Size: 176 bytes --] _______________________________________________ ewg mailing list ewg-ZwoEplunGu1OwGhvXhtEPSCwEArCW2h5@public.gmane.org http://lists.openfabrics.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/ewg ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
* Re: [ewg] [PATCH v4] IB Core: RAW ETH support [not found] ` <aday6eguhfn.fsf-BjVyx320WGW9gfZ95n9DRSW4+XlvGpQz@public.gmane.org> 2010-06-16 14:09 ` Steve Wise @ 2010-06-16 14:53 ` Moni Shoua [not found] ` <4C18E557.5050804-hKgKHo2Ms0F+cjeuK/JdrQ@public.gmane.org> 1 sibling, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Moni Shoua @ 2010-06-16 14:53 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Roland Dreier Cc: Alekseys Senin, Eli Cohen, ewg-G2znmakfqn7U1rindQTSdQ@public.gmane.org, linux-rdma-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA, Tziporet Koren, Yiftah Shahar Hi Roland, > What the hell is the thinking behind introducing IB_QPT_RAW_ETH? You're > inserting an enum value before IB_QPT_RAW_ETY, so any old userspace > passing in IB_QPT_RAW_ETY will silently get different behavior depending > on the kernel version. And you're creating two constands that differ in > a single letter (IB_QPT_RAW_ETY vs. IB_QPT_RAW_ETH). How are you going > to explain that to users? How is anyone ever going to get it right? > For that matter, what exactly does IB_QPT_RAW_ETH mean? > There is no qp type IBV_QPT_RAW_ETY in user space (at least not in the definitions coming with libibverbs). In fact, libibverbs that comes with OFED defines (in verbs.h) a qp type called IBV_QPT_RAW_ETT which equals to 7. The patch that is under discussion here adds a new qp type IB_QPT_RAW_ETH and equals it to 7 to match the definition in user space. This indeed changes the value of IB_QPT_RAW_ETY to 8 but I don't see who can be affected since 1. No user space program that uses IB_QPT_RAW_ETY exists 2. kernel is compiled as one piece of code. > This all seems to be a symptom of how broken our development process > is. Yes, unfortunately I can't spend as much time reviewing and > applying patches as I might like, and I apologize for that. But if we > have all the RDMA developers piling up shit in their little area and > then sending it on to be merged as soon as it kind of works, without > thinking about design or maintainability and without ever doing any > review, then I'm always going to have an expanding review backlog. > I want very much to push the RAW_ETH patches to upstream and we didn't intend to skip this stage. However, 1. It seems that upstream kernel still can't use ConnectX ETH ports. Is it right? 2. From practical (commercial) reasons it was important to us that the RAW_ETH patches will be in OFED. AFAIK, OFED recommends that patches will be reviewed and added first in upstream kernel but exceptions are allowed. Anyway, we didn't think that a review is not necessary, we just used the OFED group for that matter. > And then we have OFED compounding problems -- "Oh that's a nice pile of > shit you've built there. We better ship it to users while it's still > steaming." How about if OFED developers take a little time to think > things through? > > </rant> > > In other words, can someone explain the plan for this raw QP stuff to me? I hope I understand what needs to be explained but in short, we want a QP type that takes the data in post_send() and puts it on the wire as is without adding headers or footers. This allows the user of this kind of QP to build an entire Ethernet packet and send it to an Ethernet switch port. UD/RC QP with RoCEE is no good because we want to be compliant with simple ETH devices (e.g. remote server with standard 10G NIC) Infiniband RAW packets is no good (if I understand the spec correctly) because it adds LRH and is not suitable for fabrics with Ethernet switch This is why RAW_ETH was invented. -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-rdma" in the body of a message to majordomo-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <4C18E557.5050804-hKgKHo2Ms0F+cjeuK/JdrQ@public.gmane.org>]
* Re: [ewg] [PATCH v4] IB Core: RAW ETH support [not found] ` <4C18E557.5050804-hKgKHo2Ms0F+cjeuK/JdrQ@public.gmane.org> @ 2010-06-23 17:31 ` Roland Dreier [not found] ` <ada4ogtvenr.fsf-BjVyx320WGW9gfZ95n9DRSW4+XlvGpQz@public.gmane.org> 0 siblings, 1 reply; 14+ messages in thread From: Roland Dreier @ 2010-06-23 17:31 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Moni Shoua Cc: Alekseys Senin, Eli Cohen, ewg@openfabrics.org, linux-rdma-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA, Tziporet Koren, Yiftah Shahar > There is no qp type IBV_QPT_RAW_ETY in user space (at least not in the definitions > coming with libibverbs). In fact, libibverbs that comes with OFED defines (in verbs.h) > a qp type called IBV_QPT_RAW_ETT which equals to 7. > The patch that is under discussion here adds a new qp type IB_QPT_RAW_ETH and equals it to 7 > to match the definition in user space. This indeed changes the value of IB_QPT_RAW_ETY to 8 > but I don't see who can be affected since > 1. No user space program that uses IB_QPT_RAW_ETY exists > 2. kernel is compiled as one piece of code. Why renumber the _ETY enum? Maybe it doesn't break anything serious but why risk it? -- Roland Dreier <rolandd-FYB4Gu1CFyUAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> || For corporate legal information go to: http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-rdma" in the body of a message to majordomo-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
[parent not found: <ada4ogtvenr.fsf-BjVyx320WGW9gfZ95n9DRSW4+XlvGpQz@public.gmane.org>]
* RE: [ewg] [PATCH v4] IB Core: RAW ETH support [not found] ` <ada4ogtvenr.fsf-BjVyx320WGW9gfZ95n9DRSW4+XlvGpQz@public.gmane.org> @ 2010-06-24 19:44 ` Moni Shoua 0 siblings, 0 replies; 14+ messages in thread From: Moni Shoua @ 2010-06-24 19:44 UTC (permalink / raw) To: Roland Dreier Cc: Aleksey Senin, Eli Cohen, ewg-G2znmakfqn7U1rindQTSdQ, linux-rdma-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA, Tziporet Koren, Yiftah Shahar Thanks. I accept this remark. We will try to address all the bothering issues regarding the patch set of RAW QP support and resubmit them linux-rdma. Since it won't work with Mellanox the patches will be only for Intel (nes) driver. When time comes and Mellanox cards can be tested for RAQ QO feature they will benefit from the common part. --------------------------------------- Moni Shoua| +972-54-5567934 -----Original Message----- From: Roland Dreier [mailto:rdreier-FYB4Gu1CFyUAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org] Sent: Wednesday, June 23, 2010 8:32 PM To: Moni Shoua Cc: Aleksey Senin; Eli Cohen; ewg-G2znmakfqn7U1rindQTSdQ@public.gmane.org; linux-rdma-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org; Tziporet Koren; Yiftah Shahar Subject: Re: [ewg] [PATCH v4] IB Core: RAW ETH support > There is no qp type IBV_QPT_RAW_ETY in user space (at least not in the definitions > coming with libibverbs). In fact, libibverbs that comes with OFED defines (in verbs.h) > a qp type called IBV_QPT_RAW_ETT which equals to 7. > The patch that is under discussion here adds a new qp type IB_QPT_RAW_ETH and equals it to 7 > to match the definition in user space. This indeed changes the value of IB_QPT_RAW_ETY to 8 > but I don't see who can be affected since > 1. No user space program that uses IB_QPT_RAW_ETY exists > 2. kernel is compiled as one piece of code. Why renumber the _ETY enum? Maybe it doesn't break anything serious but why risk it? -- Roland Dreier <rolandd-FYB4Gu1CFyUAvxtiuMwx3w@public.gmane.org> || For corporate legal information go to: http://www.cisco.com/web/about/doing_business/legal/cri/index.html -- To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-rdma" in the body of a message to majordomo-u79uwXL29TY76Z2rM5mHXA@public.gmane.org More majordomo info at http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html ^ permalink raw reply [flat|nested] 14+ messages in thread
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[not found] ` <1276513450.30132.51.camel-uOVkuFIEnOODI2cvxHXf6UEOCMrvLtNR@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-15 21:14 ` [ewg] [PATCH v4] IB Core: RAW ETH support Roland Dreier
[not found] ` <aday6eguhfn.fsf-BjVyx320WGW9gfZ95n9DRSW4+XlvGpQz@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-16 14:09 ` Steve Wise
[not found] ` <4C18DB37.6050501-7bPotxP6k4+P2YhJcF5u+vpXobYPEAuW@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-16 15:47 ` Moni Shoua
[not found] ` <4C18F21D.3050502-hKgKHo2Ms0F+cjeuK/JdrQ@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-16 15:54 ` Steve Wise
[not found] ` <4C18F39D.3040609-7bPotxP6k4+P2YhJcF5u+vpXobYPEAuW@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-16 15:59 ` Tung, Chien Tin
2010-06-16 17:02 ` Jason Gunthorpe
[not found] ` <20100616170234.GA2932-ePGOBjL8dl3ta4EC/59zMFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-16 17:12 ` Steve Wise
[not found] ` <4C1905E6.2000304-7bPotxP6k4+P2YhJcF5u+vpXobYPEAuW@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-16 17:52 ` Jason Gunthorpe
[not found] ` <20100616175259.GF4630-ePGOBjL8dl3ta4EC/59zMFaTQe2KTcn/@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-16 18:35 ` Steve Wise
[not found] ` <4C19195B.1080003-7bPotxP6k4+P2YhJcF5u+vpXobYPEAuW@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-17 13:58 ` Doug Ledford
2010-06-17 14:10 ` Doug Ledford
2010-06-16 14:53 ` [ewg] " Moni Shoua
[not found] ` <4C18E557.5050804-hKgKHo2Ms0F+cjeuK/JdrQ@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-23 17:31 ` Roland Dreier
[not found] ` <ada4ogtvenr.fsf-BjVyx320WGW9gfZ95n9DRSW4+XlvGpQz@public.gmane.org>
2010-06-24 19:44 ` Moni Shoua
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