Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[Simon Kelley]

I see that 2.6.x kernels now have the qla2xxx driver in the mainline, 
but without the failover code.

What is the reason for that? Is there a plan provide failover facilities 
  at a higher level which will be usable with all suitable low-level 
drivers and hardware?

I'm very much in favour of using drivers which are developed in the 
kernel mainline but I have an application which needs failover so I 
might be forced back to the qlogic-distributed code.

Cheers,

Simon.

Re: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[James Bottomley]

On Mon, 2004-01-26 at 08:18, Simon Kelley wrote:
> I see that 2.6.x kernels now have the qla2xxx driver in the mainline, 
> but without the failover code.
> 
> What is the reason for that? Is there a plan provide failover facilities 
>   at a higher level which will be usable with all suitable low-level 
> drivers and hardware?
> 
> I'm very much in favour of using drivers which are developed in the 
> kernel mainline but I have an application which needs failover so I 
> might be forced back to the qlogic-distributed code.

Yes, the direction coming out of KS/OLS last year was to use the dm or
md multi-path code to sit the failover driver on top of sd (or any other
block driver).

The idea being that the Volume Manager layer is the most stack generic
place to do this type of thing.  The thread on this is here:

http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=106005575400003

James

Re: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[Philip R. Auld]

Hi,
	
Rumor has it that on Mon, Jan 26, 2004 at 09:37:25AM -0600 James Bottomley said:
> On Mon, 2004-01-26 at 08:18, Simon Kelley wrote:
>
> > I'm very much in favour of using drivers which are developed in the 
> > kernel mainline but I have an application which needs failover so I 
> > might be forced back to the qlogic-distributed code.
> 
> Yes, the direction coming out of KS/OLS last year was to use the dm or
> md multi-path code to sit the failover driver on top of sd (or any other
> block driver).
> 
> The idea being that the Volume Manager layer is the most stack generic
> place to do this type of thing.  The thread on this is here:
> 
> http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?t=106005575400003
> 

There are some issues left un-resolved with this approach. 
The one's that come mind are:

	1) load balancing when possible: it's not enough to be just a 
		failover mechanism.

        2) requiring a userspace program to execute for failover is 
	problematic when it could be the root disk that needs 
	failing over.

 	3) Handling partitions is a problem.

I see multipath and md/RAID as two different animals. Multipathing is 
multiple ways to reach the same physical block. That is it's under 
the logical layer. While RAID is multiple ways to reach the same 
logical block. It's basically many-to-one vs one-to-many. Having 
multiple physical paths to a logical partition is a little 
counter-intuitive.

That said, I'm all for getting Linux to have a decent multipath 
implementation, at what ever layer is agreed upon. I'd love to 
be able to use the native Linux multipathing and stop supporting 
the ones I've written.

 
FWIW,

Phil



> James
> 
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-scsi" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

-- 
Philip R. Auld, Ph.D.  	        	       Egenera, Inc.    
Principal Software Engineer                   165 Forest St.
(508) 858-2628                            Marlboro, MA 01752

Re: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[James Bottomley]

On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 09:02, Philip R. Auld wrote:
> 	1) load balancing when possible: it's not enough to be just a 
> 		failover mechanism.

For first out, a failover target supplies most of the needs.  Nothing
prevents an aggregation target being added later, but failover is
essential.

>         2) requiring a userspace program to execute for failover is 
> 	problematic when it could be the root disk that needs 
> 	failing over.

Userspace is required for *configuration* not failover.  The path
targets failover automatically as they see I/O down particular paths
timing out or failing.  That being said, nothing prevents async
notifications via hotplug also triggering a failover (rather than having
to wait for timeout etc) but it's not required.

>  	3) Handling partitions is a problem.

It is? How? The block approach can sit either above or below partitions
(assuming a slightly more flexible handling of partitions that dm
provides).

> I see multipath and md/RAID as two different animals. Multipathing is 
> multiple ways to reach the same physical block. That is it's under 
> the logical layer. While RAID is multiple ways to reach the same 
> logical block. It's basically many-to-one vs one-to-many. Having 
> multiple physical paths to a logical partition is a little 
> counter-intuitive.

Nothing in the discussion assumed them to be similar.  The notes were
that md already had a multi-path target, and that translated error
indications would be useful to software raid.  Thus designing the
fastfail to cater to both looks like a good idea, but that's just good
design.  Robust multi-pathing and raid will be built on top of
scsi/block fastfail.

James

Re: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[Philip R. Auld]

Hi James,
	Thanks for the reply. 

Rumor has it that on Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 10:57:29AM -0600 James Bottomley said:
> On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 09:02, Philip R. Auld wrote:
> > 	1) load balancing when possible: it's not enough to be just a 
> > 		failover mechanism.
> 
> For first out, a failover target supplies most of the needs.  Nothing
> prevents an aggregation target being added later, but failover is
> essential.

Yes, failover is necessary, but not sufficient to make a decent multipath driver.
I'm a little concerned by the "added later" part. Shouldn't it be designed in? 

> 
> >         2) requiring a userspace program to execute for failover is 
> > 	problematic when it could be the root disk that needs 
> > 	failing over.
> 
> Userspace is required for *configuration* not failover.  The path
> targets failover automatically as they see I/O down particular paths
> timing out or failing.  That being said, nothing prevents async
> notifications via hotplug also triggering a failover (rather than having
> to wait for timeout etc) but it's not required.
> 

There was some discussion about vendor plugins to do proprietary failover
when needed. Say to make a passive path active. My concern is that this be
memory resident and that we not have to go to the disk for such things.

If there is no need for that or it's done in such a way that it doesn't need
the disk this won't be a problem then.

> >  	3) Handling partitions is a problem.
> 
> It is? How? The block approach can sit either above or below partitions
> (assuming a slightly more flexible handling of partitions that dm
> provides).
> 

Great, that works for me.  

> > I see multipath and md/RAID as two different animals. Multipathing is 
> > multiple ways to reach the same physical block. That is it's under 
> > the logical layer. While RAID is multiple ways to reach the same 
> > logical block. It's basically many-to-one vs one-to-many. Having 
> > multiple physical paths to a logical partition is a little 
> > counter-intuitive.
> 
> Nothing in the discussion assumed them to be similar.  The notes were
> that md already had a multi-path target, and that translated error
> indications would be useful to software raid.  Thus designing the
> fastfail to cater to both looks like a good idea, but that's just good
> design.  Robust multi-pathing and raid will be built on top of
> scsi/block fastfail.

Aside from the implicit one made by having a multi-path target in the md 
driver, I guess that's true.

As I said, I think this all sounds great. I just hadn't see these (non?)issues 
addressed on the list after they were raised and want to make sure there was 
some thought given to them.


Cheers,

Phil

> 
> James
> 

-- 
Philip R. Auld, Ph.D.  	        	       Egenera, Inc.    
Principal Software Engineer                   165 Forest St.
(508) 858-2628                            Marlboro, MA 01752

Re: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[Patrick Mansfield]

[cc-ing dm-devel]

My two main issues with dm multipath versus scsi core multipath are:

1) It does not handle character devices.

2) It does not have the information available about the state of the
scsi_device or scsi_host (for path selection), or about the elevator.

If we end up passing all the scsi information up to dm, and it does the
same things that we already do in scsi (or in block), what is the point of
putting the code into a separate layer?

More scsi fastfail like code is still needed - probably for all the cases
where scsi_dev_queue_ready and scsi_host_queue_ready return 0 - and more.
For example, should we somehow make sdev->queue_depth available to dm?

There are still issues with with a per path elevator (i.e. we have an
elevator for each path rather than the entire device) that probably won't
be fixed cleanly in 2.6. AFAIUI this requires moving dm from a bio based
approach to a request based one.

-- Patrick Mansfield

RE: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[Smart, James]

I'd add one additional issue :

3) SCSI Reservations

I guess this could be considered a part of (2), but given that reservations
bring in a host of additional problems, and potentially brings up multi-host
configs/clusters as well...

-- James S


> -----Original Message-----
> From: Patrick Mansfield [mailto:patmans@us.ibm.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, January 28, 2004 3:48 PM
> To: Philip R. Auld
> Cc: James Bottomley; Simon Kelley; SCSI Mailing List;
> dm-devel@sistina.com
> Subject: Re: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?
> 
> 
> [cc-ing dm-devel]
> 
> My two main issues with dm multipath versus scsi core multipath are:
> 
> 1) It does not handle character devices.
> 
> 2) It does not have the information available about the state of the
> scsi_device or scsi_host (for path selection), or about the elevator.
> 
> If we end up passing all the scsi information up to dm, and 
> it does the
> same things that we already do in scsi (or in block), what is 
> the point of
> putting the code into a separate layer?
> 
> More scsi fastfail like code is still needed - probably for 
> all the cases
> where scsi_dev_queue_ready and scsi_host_queue_ready return 0 
> - and more.
> For example, should we somehow make sdev->queue_depth available to dm?
> 
> There are still issues with with a per path elevator (i.e. we have an
> elevator for each path rather than the entire device) that 
> probably won't
> be fixed cleanly in 2.6. AFAIUI this requires moving dm from 
> a bio based
> approach to a request based one.
> 
> -- Patrick Mansfield
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe 
> linux-scsi" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html
> 

Re: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[James Bottomley]

On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 15:47, Patrick Mansfield wrote:
> [cc-ing dm-devel]
> 
> My two main issues with dm multipath versus scsi core multipath are:
> 
> 1) It does not handle character devices.

Multi-path character devices are pretty much corner cases.  It's not
clear to me that you need to handle them in kernel at all.  Things like
multi-path tape often come with an application that's perfectly happy to
take the presentation of two or more tape devices.  Do we have a
character device example we need to support as a single device?

> 2) It does not have the information available about the state of the
> scsi_device or scsi_host (for path selection), or about the elevator.

Well, this is one of those abstraction case things.  Can we make the
information generic enough that the pathing layer makes the right
decisions without worrying about what the underlying internals are? 
That's where enhancements to the fastfail layer come in.  I believe we
can get the fastfail information to the point where we can use it to
make good decisions regardless of underlying transport (or even
subsystem).

> If we end up passing all the scsi information up to dm, and it does the
> same things that we already do in scsi (or in block), what is the point of
> putting the code into a separate layer?

It's for interpretation by those modular add-ons that are allowed to
cater to specific devices.

> More scsi fastfail like code is still needed - probably for all the cases
> where scsi_dev_queue_ready and scsi_host_queue_ready return 0 - and more.
> For example, should we somehow make sdev->queue_depth available to dm?

I agree.  We only have the basics at the moment.  Expanding the error
indications is a necessary next step.

> There are still issues with with a per path elevator (i.e. we have an
> elevator for each path rather than the entire device) that probably won't
> be fixed cleanly in 2.6. AFAIUI this requires moving dm from a bio based
> approach to a request based one.

We had the "where does the elevator go" discussion at the OLS bof.  I
think I heard agreement that the current situation of between dm and
block is suboptimal and that we'd like a true coalescing elevator above
dm with a vestigial one for the mid-layer to use for queueing below.  I
think this is a requirement for dm multipath to work well, but it's not
a requirement for it actually to work.

James

RE: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[James Bottomley]

On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 16:02, Smart, James wrote:
> I'd add one additional issue :
> 
> 3) SCSI Reservations
> 
> I guess this could be considered a part of (2), but given that reservations
> bring in a host of additional problems, and potentially brings up multi-host
> configs/clusters as well...

The current crop of cluster implementations that use reservations manage
quite well in user space alone.  Certainly, though, the presence of
reservations can interfere with failover code and may be considered a
problem that needs to be solved in multi-path...it all depends on how
the multi-path devices react to path switching in the face of
reservations.

I'm open to suggestions on this,  but I think it should be done
separately as part of a device ownership API.

James

Re: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[Mike Christie]

Philip R. Auld wrote:
> Hi James,
> 	Thanks for the reply. 
> 
> Rumor has it that on Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 10:57:29AM -0600 James Bottomley said:
> 
>>On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 09:02, Philip R. Auld wrote:
>>
>>>	1) load balancing when possible: it's not enough to be just a 
>>>		failover mechanism.
>>
>>For first out, a failover target supplies most of the needs.  Nothing
>>prevents an aggregation target being added later, but failover is
>>essential.
> 
> 
> Yes, failover is necessary, but not sufficient to make a decent multipath driver.
> I'm a little concerned by the "added later" part. Shouldn't it be designed in? 

The DM multipath can do both. Unfortunately, some work still needs to be 
done. For example, when doing load balancing how much IO to send down 
each path is an issue that the DM maintainer had asked for feedback on. 
Suggestions?

> 
>>>        2) requiring a userspace program to execute for failover is 
>>>	problematic when it could be the root disk that needs 
>>>	failing over.
>>
>>Userspace is required for *configuration* not failover.  The path
>>targets failover automatically as they see I/O down particular paths
>>timing out or failing.  That being said, nothing prevents async
>>notifications via hotplug also triggering a failover (rather than having
>>to wait for timeout etc) but it's not required.
>>
> 
> 
> There was some discussion about vendor plugins to do proprietary failover
> when needed. Say to make a passive path active. My concern is that this be
> memory resident and that we not have to go to the disk for such things.
> 
> If there is no need for that or it's done in such a way that it doesn't need
> the disk this won't be a problem then.
>  

This is something both MD and DM multiapth are not yet fully prepared for.

Re: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[Patrick Mansfield]

On Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 05:14:26PM -0500, James Bottomley wrote:
> On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 15:47, Patrick Mansfield wrote:
> > [cc-ing dm-devel]
> > 
> > My two main issues with dm multipath versus scsi core multipath are:
> > 
> > 1) It does not handle character devices.
> 
> Multi-path character devices are pretty much corner cases.  It's not
> clear to me that you need to handle them in kernel at all.  Things like
> multi-path tape often come with an application that's perfectly happy to
> take the presentation of two or more tape devices.  

I have not seen such applications. Standard applications like tar and cpio
are not going to work well.

If you plug a single ported tape drive or other scsi device into a fibre
channel SAN, it will show up multiple times, the hardware itself need not
be multiported.

> Do we have a
> character device example we need to support as a single device?

Not that I know of, but I have not worked in this area recently. I assume
there are also fibre attached media changers.

BTW, we need some sort of udev rules so we can have a multi-path device
(sd part, not dm part) actually show up multiple times.

> > 2) It does not have the information available about the state of the
> > scsi_device or scsi_host (for path selection), or about the elevator.
> 
> Well, this is one of those abstraction case things.  Can we make the
> information generic enough that the pathing layer makes the right
> decisions without worrying about what the underlying internals are? 

I don't think current interfaces and passing up error codes will be
enough, for example: a queue full on a given path (aka scsi_device) when
there is no other IO on that device could lead to starvation, similiar to
one node in a cluster starving other nodes out. 

Limiting IO via some sort of queue_depth in dm would help solve this
particular problem, but there is nothing in place today for dm to have its
own request queue or be request based, limiting the number of bio's to an
aribitrary value would suck, also the sdev->queue_depth is not visible to
dm today.

> That's where enhancements to the fastfail layer come in.  I believe we
> can get the fastfail information to the point where we can use it to
> make good decisions regardless of underlying transport (or even
> subsystem).

> > If we end up passing all the scsi information up to dm, and it does the
> > same things that we already do in scsi (or in block), what is the point of
> > putting the code into a separate layer?
> 
> It's for interpretation by those modular add-ons that are allowed to
> cater to specific devices.

I'm not sure what you mean - adding code or data that is only every used
by dm is wasted if you're not using dm.

> > More scsi fastfail like code is still needed - probably for all the cases
> > where scsi_dev_queue_ready and scsi_host_queue_ready return 0 - and more.
> > For example, should we somehow make sdev->queue_depth available to dm?
> 
> I agree.  We only have the basics at the moment.  Expanding the error
> indications is a necessary next step.

Yes, I was looking into this for use with changes Mike C is working on -
pass up an error via end_that_request_first or such.

> We had the "where does the elevator go" discussion at the OLS bof.  I
> think I heard agreement that the current situation of between dm and
> block is suboptimal and that we'd like a true coalescing elevator above
> dm with a vestigial one for the mid-layer to use for queueing below.  I
> think this is a requirement for dm multipath to work well, but it's not
> a requirement for it actually to work.

If the performance is bad enough, it doesn't matter if it works.

-- Patrick Mansfield

Re: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[Philip R. Auld]

Rumor has it that on Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 05:16:51PM -0500 James Bottomley said:
> On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 16:02, Smart, James wrote:
> > I'd add one additional issue :
> > 
> > 3) SCSI Reservations
> > 
> > I guess this could be considered a part of (2), but given that reservations
> > bring in a host of additional problems, and potentially brings up multi-host
> > configs/clusters as well...
> 
> The current crop of cluster implementations that use reservations manage
> quite well in user space alone.  Certainly, though, the presence of
> reservations can interfere with failover code and may be considered a
> problem that needs to be solved in multi-path...it all depends on how
> the multi-path devices react to path switching in the face of
> reservations.
> 

It needs to be known to the pathing layer if you've got load balancing. 
It has to know which path has the reservation and only use that one.
 
> I'm open to suggestions on this,  but I think it should be done
> separately as part of a device ownership API.
> 
> James
> 

-- 
Philip R. Auld, Ph.D.  	        	       Egenera, Inc.    
Principal Software Engineer                   165 Forest St.
(508) 858-2628                            Marlboro, MA 01752

Re: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[James Bottomley]

On Thu, 2004-01-29 at 09:49, Philip R. Auld wrote:
> It needs to be known to the pathing layer if you've got load balancing. 
> It has to know which path has the reservation and only use that one.

Well, yes, but your multiple active path implementation just collapsed
back down to single path in the face of reservations, so it would
probably be better simply to use failover in the face of reservations
and clustering.

For the single path case, something like the HP MSA/EVA arrays simply
throw away reservations on path switch over.  This allows the user level
watchdog code to reassert them in a cluster down the new path.  However,
there are array that will do a path switchover and then return
reservation conflict to everyone (including the taking node).  These
arrays will need some type of special handling.

James

Re: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[Philip R. Auld]

Rumor has it that on Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 02:37:28PM -0800 Mike Christie said:
> Philip R. Auld wrote:
> > Hi James,
> > 	Thanks for the reply. 
> > 
> > Rumor has it that on Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 10:57:29AM -0600 James Bottomley said:
> > 
> >>On Wed, 2004-01-28 at 09:02, Philip R. Auld wrote:
> >>
> >>>	1) load balancing when possible: it's not enough to be just a 
> >>>		failover mechanism.
> >>
> >>For first out, a failover target supplies most of the needs.  Nothing
> >>prevents an aggregation target being added later, but failover is
> >>essential.
> > 
> > 
> > Yes, failover is necessary, but not sufficient to make a decent multipath driver.
> > I'm a little concerned by the "added later" part. Shouldn't it be designed in? 
> 
> The DM multipath can do both. Unfortunately, some work still needs to be 
> done. For example, when doing load balancing how much IO to send down 
> each path is an issue that the DM maintainer had asked for feedback on. 
> Suggestions?
> 

That leads back to where to put the request merging and elevator code...

The way I currently do load-balancing is on a scsi_cmnd basis. At that point 
the IO is coalesced already.  A shortest queue_depth falling back to 
round-robin algorithm balances really well on individual commands. From a 
logical block level, I'm not sure how. I'm a little unfamiliar (as my posts 
have shown) with how/where the DM code fits in.  (I've also not gotten a good 
look into 2.6 BIO... busy on 2.4 still.)

I think the place to do load balancing would be below the block queue so that
the IOs are coalesced. IMO, until you've merged the individual block requests 
you can't make a good decision about how to balance the load. 
 

-- 
Philip R. Auld, Ph.D.  	        	       Egenera, Inc.    
Principal Software Engineer                   165 Forest St.
(508) 858-2628                            Marlboro, MA 01752

Re: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[James Bottomley]

On Thu, 2004-01-29 at 10:24, Philip R. Auld wrote:
> I think the place to do load balancing would be below the block queue so that
> the IOs are coalesced. IMO, until you've merged the individual block requests 
> you can't make a good decision about how to balance the load. 

Yes, that's what I think too, so the elevator should go above dm, with a
vestigial elevator between dm and sd simply for SCSI to use in queuing.

Unfortunately, the way it works today is that the elevator is between dm
and sd.  I know people are thinking about how to change this, but I'm
not sure how far anyone's got.

James

RE: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[Smart, James]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Bottomley [mailto:James.Bottomley@SteelEye.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 10:06 AM
> To: Philip R. Auld
> Cc: Smart, James; 'Patrick Mansfield'; Simon Kelley; SCSI 
> Mailing List;
> dm-devel@sistina.com
> Subject: Re: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?
> 
> 
> On Thu, 2004-01-29 at 09:49, Philip R. Auld wrote:
> > It needs to be known to the pathing layer if you've got 
> load balancing. 
> > It has to know which path has the reservation and only use that one.
> 
> Well, yes, but your multiple active path implementation just collapsed
> back down to single path in the face of reservations, so it would
> probably be better simply to use failover in the face of reservations
> and clustering.

Why do you imply that you're down to a single path ? With multiple port
devices, and the T10 unclarity on multiport support, simple reservations
didn't bring you down to the single port access you are describing. Some
devices may have implemented it this way, but the standard didn't say they
had to or even that they should.

And this picture changes significantly with the use of Persistent
Reservations and the use of keys.


> 
> For the single path case, something like the HP MSA/EVA arrays simply
> throw away reservations on path switch over. 

Depends on the reservation type. Simple Reservations, yes. Persistent
Reservations, no.

> This allows the user level
> watchdog code to reassert them in a cluster down the new 
> path.  However,
> there are array that will do a path switchover and then return
> reservation conflict to everyone (including the taking node).  These
> arrays will need some type of special handling.
> 
> James
> 

Although the management of the reservation/keys in user space is functional,
given that reservations are used as a last firewall for babbling adapters
under failure, you want to reinstate or move the firewall as quickly as
possible - which is sometimes at odds with going out to userland to do so.

-- James S

Re: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[Mike Anderson]

Smart, James [James.Smart@Emulex.com] wrote:
> 
> 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: James Bottomley [mailto:James.Bottomley@SteelEye.com]
> > 
> > On Thu, 2004-01-29 at 09:49, Philip R. Auld wrote:
> > > It needs to be known to the pathing layer if you've got 
> > load balancing. 
> > > It has to know which path has the reservation and only use that one.
> > 
> > Well, yes, but your multiple active path implementation just collapsed
> > back down to single path in the face of reservations, so it would
> > probably be better simply to use failover in the face of reservations
> > and clustering.
> 
> Why do you imply that you're down to a single path ? With multiple port
> devices, and the T10 unclarity on multiport support, simple reservations
> didn't bring you down to the single port access you are describing. Some
> devices may have implemented it this way, but the standard didn't say they
> had to or even that they should.
> 
> And this picture changes significantly with the use of Persistent
> Reservations and the use of keys.
> 

It appears you are mixing port and path. If you have multiple paths to a
port created by multiple adapters connecting to this port through a bus,
fabric, etc. then simple reservations should restrict you to only one
path to this port. Is there a device that implements simple reservations
and allows multiple initiators access?

-andmike
--
Michael Anderson
andmike@us.ibm.com

RE: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[James Bottomley]

On Thu, 2004-01-29 at 12:35, Smart, James wrote:
> Why do you imply that you're down to a single path ? With multiple port
> devices, and the T10 unclarity on multiport support, simple reservations
> didn't bring you down to the single port access you are describing. Some
> devices may have implemented it this way, but the standard didn't say they
> had to or even that they should.

T10 implies SCSI-2 reservations protect single paths.  Any multi-port
SCSI-2 reservation implementations tend to be vendor specific.  That's a
nasty I don't think we want to get into.

> And this picture changes significantly with the use of Persistent
> Reservations and the use of keys.

That's the point, it doesn't.  T10 clarified the persistent reservation
holder (5.6.2.6 in rev 16) so that it's a specific I_T nexus (which is
effectively a specific path unless you have fabric redundancy) except
for all registrant reservations (which aren't useful for clustering).

Obviously, this seems to require that the reservation be held against
everyone when the port switches, which would preclude doing user level
reservation handling, hence the need for a separate ownership API
(assuming all vendors get on the same page about this).

James

RE: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[Smart, James]

I view port as a part of the path. I may have been a little loose on my
terms. I am describing paths that enter different ports on the device - not
the paths through the same port that you describe. Could be 1 adapter to a
switch with 2 switch connections to 2 ports on the target; or 2 adapters,
each with an independent path to a different port on the device.

Relative to a single port on the device - I agree with you. Simple
reservations only allow one initiator access. With multiple ports on the
device, each which may be on different and independent "bus", simple
reservation isn't sufficient.  (yes - I'm using "bus" loosely - it may be an
independent Parallel SCSI bus, or a independent fabric/zone, etc).

-- James

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Mike Anderson [mailto:andmike@us.ibm.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 1:31 PM
> To: Smart, James
> Cc: 'James Bottomley'; Philip R. Auld; 'Patrick Mansfield'; Simon
> Kelley; SCSI Mailing List; dm-devel@sistina.com
> Subject: Re: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?
> 
> 
> Smart, James [James.Smart@Emulex.com] wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: James Bottomley [mailto:James.Bottomley@SteelEye.com]
> > > 
> > > On Thu, 2004-01-29 at 09:49, Philip R. Auld wrote:
> > > > It needs to be known to the pathing layer if you've got 
> > > load balancing. 
> > > > It has to know which path has the reservation and only 
> use that one.
> > > 
> > > Well, yes, but your multiple active path implementation 
> just collapsed
> > > back down to single path in the face of reservations, so it would
> > > probably be better simply to use failover in the face of 
> reservations
> > > and clustering.
> > 
> > Why do you imply that you're down to a single path ? With 
> multiple port
> > devices, and the T10 unclarity on multiport support, simple 
> reservations
> > didn't bring you down to the single port access you are 
> describing. Some
> > devices may have implemented it this way, but the standard 
> didn't say they
> > had to or even that they should.
> > 
> > And this picture changes significantly with the use of Persistent
> > Reservations and the use of keys.
> > 
> 
> It appears you are mixing port and path. If you have multiple 
> paths to a
> port created by multiple adapters connecting to this port 
> through a bus,
> fabric, etc. then simple reservations should restrict you to only one
> path to this port. Is there a device that implements simple 
> reservations
> and allows multiple initiators access?
> 
> -andmike
> --
> Michael Anderson
> andmike@us.ibm.com
> 

RE: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[Smart, James]

I agree with what's here. Some of my concern did come from trying to support
older SCSI-2 devices, or some of those implementations before Persistent
Reserve finally settled to where it is now, and how you actually detect the
different rev/behaviors. 

IMO - After addressing the semantics of the reservations types and how to
identify what's what(which is all SCSI-based) - why isn't this in the scsi
layer ? Pushing this up a level to a transport agnostic layer seems to just
impose more behaviors on that layer, and create a bunch of new interfaces
for what SCSI could already know/do. Also, when considering the timing
constraints and ownership issues pushing this to user land doesn't seem
right either.

-- James S


> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Bottomley [mailto:James.Bottomley@SteelEye.com]
> Sent: Thursday, January 29, 2004 1:31 PM
> To: Smart, James
> Cc: Philip R. Auld; 'Patrick Mansfield'; Simon Kelley; SCSI Mailing
> List; dm-devel@sistina.com
> Subject: RE: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?
> 
> 
> On Thu, 2004-01-29 at 12:35, Smart, James wrote:
> > Why do you imply that you're down to a single path ? With 
> multiple port
> > devices, and the T10 unclarity on multiport support, simple 
> reservations
> > didn't bring you down to the single port access you are 
> describing. Some
> > devices may have implemented it this way, but the standard 
> didn't say they
> > had to or even that they should.
> 
> T10 implies SCSI-2 reservations protect single paths.  Any multi-port
> SCSI-2 reservation implementations tend to be vendor 
> specific.  That's a
> nasty I don't think we want to get into.
> 
> > And this picture changes significantly with the use of Persistent
> > Reservations and the use of keys.
> 
> That's the point, it doesn't.  T10 clarified the persistent 
> reservation
> holder (5.6.2.6 in rev 16) so that it's a specific I_T nexus (which is
> effectively a specific path unless you have fabric redundancy) except
> for all registrant reservations (which aren't useful for clustering).
> 
> Obviously, this seems to require that the reservation be held against
> everyone when the port switches, which would preclude doing user level
> reservation handling, hence the need for a separate ownership API
> (assuming all vendors get on the same page about this).
> 
> James
> 
> 

Re: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[Mike Christie]

James Bottomley wrote:
> On Thu, 2004-01-29 at 10:24, Philip R. Auld wrote:
> 
>>I think the place to do load balancing would be below the block queue so that
>>the IOs are coalesced. IMO, until you've merged the individual block requests 
>>you can't make a good decision about how to balance the load. 
> 
> 
> Yes, that's what I think too, so the elevator should go above dm, with a
> vestigial elevator between dm and sd simply for SCSI to use in queuing.


I do not think there is anyone that will disagree that there should be 
one elevator that does the sorting, merging, aging etc and that it 
should be at a different layer than it is today for DM multipath.

The modifications to DM to allow a multipath device to have a queue and 
to use it are minial. The problem is it's request_fn_proc. In the DM 
request_fn_proc we could just dequeue a request from the DM device's 
queue, clone it so the IO sched state does not get overwritten, map it 
to the correct lower level device queue, then insert it in the lower 
level device queue. Bad design right? We could do something similar 
where the request_fn_proc recieves a request instead of a queue like 
Jen's is planning for 2.7 
(http://www.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/people/axboe/experimental/), and 
then build a framework similar to bio remapping where we just clone and 
remap requests to the correct driver. But still a bad design right?

It doesn't seem like there are a lot of options for 2.6 with the current 
framework. We can add hints so we can try to make a decent decsion, but 
it isn't going to be perfect. But as James said the elevator problem is 
not a requirement for dm to actually work. I guess people will continue 
rolling their own solution if they feel the performance is that bad.

I cc'd Jens as he is best qualified to describe why there are problems 
with queueing requests between different queue's. I apoligize for 
bugging him about this again.


Mike

Re: [dm-devel] Re: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[Joe Thornber]

On Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 04:55:34PM -0800, Patrick Mansfield wrote:
> > We had the "where does the elevator go" discussion at the OLS bof.  I
> > think I heard agreement that the current situation of between dm and
> > block is suboptimal and that we'd like a true coalescing elevator above
> > dm with a vestigial one for the mid-layer to use for queueing below.  I
> > think this is a requirement for dm multipath to work well, but it's not
> > a requirement for it actually to work.
> 
> If the performance is bad enough, it doesn't matter if it works.

It would be great to get some benchmarks to back up these arguments.
eg, performance of dm mpath with a simple round robin selector,
compared to a scsi layer implementation.  Lifting the elevator (or
lowering dm) is a big piece of work that I wont even consider unless
there is very good reason; the reason probably needs to be broader
than just multipath too.  Even if we did decide to do this, it won't
happen in 2.6.

- Joe

Re: [dm-devel] Re: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[Jens Axboe]

On Fri, Jan 30 2004, Joe Thornber wrote:
> On Wed, Jan 28, 2004 at 04:55:34PM -0800, Patrick Mansfield wrote:
> > > We had the "where does the elevator go" discussion at the OLS bof.  I
> > > think I heard agreement that the current situation of between dm and
> > > block is suboptimal and that we'd like a true coalescing elevator above
> > > dm with a vestigial one for the mid-layer to use for queueing below.  I
> > > think this is a requirement for dm multipath to work well, but it's not
> > > a requirement for it actually to work.
> > 
> > If the performance is bad enough, it doesn't matter if it works.
> 
> It would be great to get some benchmarks to back up these arguments.
> eg, performance of dm mpath with a simple round robin selector,
> compared to a scsi layer implementation.  Lifting the elevator (or
> lowering dm) is a big piece of work that I wont even consider unless
> there is very good reason; the reason probably needs to be broader
> than just multipath too.  Even if we did decide to do this, it won't
> happen in 2.6.

I suspect the problem really isn't that huge in 2.6, since most
performance file systems are using mpage or building their own big
bio's. So in a sense, some of the merging already does happen above dm
(and the io scheduler).

-- 
Jens Axboe

Re: [dm-devel] Re: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[Philip R. Auld]

Rumor has it that on Sat, Jan 31, 2004 at 10:30:37AM +0100 Jens Axboe said:
> On Fri, Jan 30 2004, Joe Thornber wrote:
> > It would be great to get some benchmarks to back up these arguments.
> > eg, performance of dm mpath with a simple round robin selector,
> > compared to a scsi layer implementation.  Lifting the elevator (or
> > lowering dm) is a big piece of work that I wont even consider unless
> > there is very good reason; the reason probably needs to be broader
> > than just multipath too.  Even if we did decide to do this, it won't
> > happen in 2.6.
> 
> I suspect the problem really isn't that huge in 2.6, since most
> performance file systems are using mpage or building their own big
> bio's. So in a sense, some of the merging already does happen above dm
> (and the io scheduler).

Out of curiosity, where does raw io fit into that in 2.6?


Thanks,

Phil


-- 
Philip R. Auld, Ph.D.  	        	       Egenera, Inc.    
Principal Software Engineer                   165 Forest St.
(508) 858-2628                            Marlboro, MA 01752

Re: [dm-devel] Re: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[Jens Axboe]

On Sat, Jan 31 2004, Philip R. Auld wrote:
> Rumor has it that on Sat, Jan 31, 2004 at 10:30:37AM +0100 Jens Axboe said:
> > On Fri, Jan 30 2004, Joe Thornber wrote:
> > > It would be great to get some benchmarks to back up these arguments.
> > > eg, performance of dm mpath with a simple round robin selector,
> > > compared to a scsi layer implementation.  Lifting the elevator (or
> > > lowering dm) is a big piece of work that I wont even consider unless
> > > there is very good reason; the reason probably needs to be broader
> > > than just multipath too.  Even if we did decide to do this, it won't
> > > happen in 2.6.
> > 
> > I suspect the problem really isn't that huge in 2.6, since most
> > performance file systems are using mpage or building their own big
> > bio's. So in a sense, some of the merging already does happen above dm
> > (and the io scheduler).
> 
> Out of curiosity, where does raw io fit into that in 2.6?

raw io (or O_DIRECT io, same path) should work even better, always send
out bio's as big as the underlying device can support.

-- 
Jens Axboe

Re: [dm-devel] Re: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[Philip R. Auld]

Rumor has it that on Sat, Jan 31, 2004 at 06:42:01PM +0100 Jens Axboe said:
> On Sat, Jan 31 2004, Philip R. Auld wrote:
> > Rumor has it that on Sat, Jan 31, 2004 at 10:30:37AM +0100 Jens Axboe said:
> > > On Fri, Jan 30 2004, Joe Thornber wrote:
> > > > It would be great to get some benchmarks to back up these arguments.
> > > > eg, performance of dm mpath with a simple round robin selector,
> > > > compared to a scsi layer implementation.  Lifting the elevator (or
> > > > lowering dm) is a big piece of work that I wont even consider unless
> > > > there is very good reason; the reason probably needs to be broader
> > > > than just multipath too.  Even if we did decide to do this, it won't
> > > > happen in 2.6.
> > > 
> > > I suspect the problem really isn't that huge in 2.6, since most
> > > performance file systems are using mpage or building their own big
> > > bio's. So in a sense, some of the merging already does happen above dm
> > > (and the io scheduler).
> > 
> > Out of curiosity, where does raw io fit into that in 2.6?
> 
> raw io (or O_DIRECT io, same path) should work even better, always send
> out bio's as big as the underlying device can support.
> 

That size is based on the blocksize? Is there a way to set the block size higher than
512 w/o mounting it? I've gotten really bad rawio performance on 2.4. since I have a 
limit of 32 sg entries. When Rawio uses a 512 byte blocksize IOs are limited to 16K. 

Will this still be a problem in 2.6?

Thanks again,

Phil

> -- 
> Jens Axboe
> 
> -
> To unsubscribe from this list: send the line "unsubscribe linux-scsi" in
> the body of a message to majordomo@vger.kernel.org
> More majordomo info at  http://vger.kernel.org/majordomo-info.html

-- 
Philip R. Auld, Ph.D.  	        	       Egenera, Inc.    
Principal Software Engineer                   165 Forest St.
(508) 858-2628                            Marlboro, MA 01752

Re: [dm-devel] Re: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[Arjan van de Ven]

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 429 bytes --]


> That size is based on the blocksize? Is there a way to set the block size higher than
> 512 w/o mounting it? I've gotten really bad rawio performance on 2.4. since I have a 
> limit of 32 sg entries. When Rawio uses a 512 byte blocksize IOs are limited to 16K. 
> 
> Will this still be a problem in 2.6?

If you code the driver right, it's not even a problem in 2.4 if you use
a Enterprise Linux distro kernel.....


[-- Attachment #2: This is a digitally signed message part --]
[-- Type: application/pgp-signature, Size: 189 bytes --]

Re: [dm-devel] Re: Is there a grand plan for FC failover?

[Philip R. Auld]

Rumor has it that on Thu, Feb 12, 2004 at 04:28:41PM +0100 Arjan van de Ven said:
> 
> > That size is based on the blocksize? Is there a way to set the block size higher than
> > 512 w/o mounting it? I've gotten really bad rawio performance on 2.4. since I have a 
> > limit of 32 sg entries. When Rawio uses a 512 byte blocksize IOs are limited to 16K. 
> > 
> > Will this still be a problem in 2.6?
> 
> If you code the driver right, it's not even a problem in 2.4 if you use
> a Enterprise Linux distro kernel.....
> 

Hi Arjan, I think you know that I do use your Enterprise kernel :)

Can you please explain what "right" means in this case?

I've a hardware limit of 32 sg entries. When the blocksize is the default hardware
sector size of 512 I get commands of 32 separate 512 bytes scatter-gather entries.
This is deteremined at a higher level than my LLDD. What is there that I can do 
about it in the driver?


Cheers,

Phil


-- 
Philip R. Auld, Ph.D.  	        	       Egenera, Inc.    
Principal Software Engineer                   165 Forest St.
(508) 858-2628                            Marlboro, MA 01752